Denise's Parker 4/6 conservative GRAD when off all meds

Welcome to Dodgerlist. My name is Paula what is yours?

Rimadyl is from one class of anti-inflammatories and often used when there is no neuro diminishment. Prednisone is the strong of the anti-inflammatories, but to switch to this class without a 4-7 days washout is a concern of GI tract damage.

A stomach protector such as Pepcid AC (famotidine) should have been prescribed from the get go. If you can't get in touch with your vet today, go ahead and use Pepcid AC as along as you have read about it and feel Parker does not have any liver or heart issues you know of. Reading on Pepcid AC: www.marvistavet.com/html/famotidine.html When you can contact your vet be sure to keep him in the loop. The FDA and manufacturer pkg insert indicate gastrointestinal problems are side effects of using NSAIDs. The natural defenses of the stomach to shield against stomach acid is hindered when taking NSAIDs. Serious gastrointestinal toxicity such as bleeding, ulceration, and perforation, can occur at any time, with or without warning symptoms. Phrase the question to your vet this particular way:" Is there a medical/health reason my dog may not take Pepcid?" If there is no reason, we follow vets who are proactive in stomach protection by giving doxies 5mg Pepcid (famotidine) 30 minutes before the NSAID.

Tell us few more things about Parker so we can better support you:

-- Is there still currently pain - shivering, trembling, yelping when picked up or moved, reluctant/slow to move head or body, tight hard tummy?  There more plenty more options to control pain if you are seeing any of these signs....so the vet would need to know asap. Background reading so you are in a position to advocate for www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingpain.htm Parker: 

-- How much does Parker weigh?
-- What are the exact names of meds currently given, their doses in mg's and frequencies?
       Anti-inflammatories can increase GI tract damage. Phrase the question to your vet this particular way:" Is there a medical/health reason my dog may not take Pepcid?" If there is no reason, we follow vets who are proactive in stomach protection by giving doxies 5mg Pepcid (famotidine) 30 minutes before the anti-inflammatory and thereafter every 12 hours. Pepcid is generally considered a safe-over-the-counter suppressor of stomach acid production for a healthy dog and good insurance. Dogs don't speak up at first signs of trouble like a person would. By the time we notice black or red blood in the stools, things can quickly go from bleeding ulcers to a life threatening perforated stomach. We ask that all members read about each med their dog is on or may take as a safety measure. This directory very good for learning about each of your dog's meds:
www.marvistavet.com/html/pharmacy_center.htm

-- Eating and drinking OK? How are poops today- normal color and firmness, no dark or bright red blood?

-- Currently can your dog wobbly walk? move the legs at all? or wag the tail when you do some happy talk? The very, very lightest least aggressive range of motion and leg massage is necessary for paralyzed legs during conservative treatment. The information highlighted in PINK pertains to a dog who can't walk once off all pain meds and no more signs of pain.
www.dodgerslist.com/literature/massagepassiveexercises.htm

-- Do you find wet bedding or leaks on you when lifted up? This is a sign bladder control has been lost and the need to learn how to express. Review first so you get more out of the hands on top of your hands lesson. www.dodgerslist.com/literature/Expressing.htm
           The only way for us humans to know if there is bladder control is with the sniff and pee test. Carry outdoors, set on an old pee spot to sniff it. See if urine is then released. Make sure the sling or your hands are not on the tummy area as that can press on the bladder. If urine comes out after sniffing, bladder control is returning.   Let us know what you observe.

-- If there is pain or neuro diminishment, dogs can benefit greatly with acupuncture or laser light therapy. These therapies can be be started right away to help relieve pain and to also to kick start energy production in nerve cells to sprout. So if this therapy is in your budget, seek out a holistic vet.
ahvma.org/Widgets/FindVet.html
www.serenityvetacupuncture.com/index.php/faq_/ [one vet's overview/prices] Chiropractic is not recommended for IVDD dogs.

Parker is going to need you to be up to speed on IVDD as quickly as possible so you can advocate for him, protect him. He's going to be spending many happy years with you and right now he needs your assurance that all is going to be ok because it will be. This is where to start your reading program...all the buttons are on point about the things you need to know about:  www.dodgerslist.com/healingindex.htm

Hi Denise, the best things you can do for Parker are educate yourself and be strong for him. You've got the opportunity to get help with both here on this site! Please know that no matter what has happened to cause Parker to be paralyzed, there is no guarantee he will or won't walk again, no matter which method of care you choose; conservative or surgery. If there is pressure or swelling on the spine or a disc is slipped or bulging then rest will help; and nerves have NO expiry date so even dogs that haven't walked for a year could one day just up and walk out to pee! Emmie was in pain and then within an hour paralyzed in her back legs. I've never been so upset or scared! After researching what the surgery involved and talking to the breeder where I got Em, I didn't think that Emmie (kind of neurotic, clingy) would do well with the surgery option so I elected to go with crate rest. My vet says that it is about 86% that he can help to walk again with strict crate rest and acupuncture. The surgeons indicate a number in the 90's but none of that matters because Parker's situation is unique. Go get set up for a couple of months of basically having a GIANT guinea pig - Parker will be in a crate and only come out for potty breaks. Neurological diminishment is seeing any problem with nerves communicating to muscles such as the paralysis and no tail wag. Are all his legs affected or just the back two? Has he lost bladder/bowel control? I just wanted to let you know these moderators can help you and the ideas on the website are ingenious. If you have a question just ask and someone knowledgeable will jump in to help you. Even if you're just feeling hopeless and dark - we've all been there before too. Best wishes to you and Parker from me and Em.

Thankyou for all your tips, I do think Parker does not have bladder control. I take him out but he cant use his back legs so he just looks at you so then I express his bladder and urine comes out. Now I am worried about urinary tract infection. His front legs work fine but his back legs do not work at all. I am praying that crate rest works. he does pee on his blankets in the crate. I cannot afford surgery. I just wonder what the percentage is of dogs that lose all feeling in their back legs recover from crate rest?? Its so sad, he wants out of the crate so bad and crys. Which makes me cry!!! Would like to hear more success stories about crate rest with dogs who had no feeling in their back legs and only had crate rest. Thankyou Paula and Vita for taking time to write to me, I appreciate it so much!! I am also having a terrible time giving him pills...he has caught on to the hotdogs, peanut butter thanks again, Denise and Parker

Hi Denise, my name is Maureen. Just wanted to let you know that Stevie was paralysed and recovered with crate rest.
Are you able to use a sling to support his hind end when you take him out for a pee? It really helps save your back too, as well as allowing him to adopt a more normal position to pee. You can use a long scarf to hold up his back end or made a Figure 8 sling for him out of 2 leashes or 2 long scarves that you tie loops in. Sometimes the Figure 8 works better for boys because it doesn't put pressure on their penis.
Figure 8 sling
from the "Supplies List" www.dodgerslist.com/literature/cratesupplies.htm
This image has been reduced by 49.2%. Click to view full size.

I totally understand the need to cry, but try to do it away from Parker. He will pick up on your distress and be upset. He may hate the crate now but eventually he will give in and accept that he is stuck there for the duration. If he really won't settle there are some calming aids that you can use.
Oral calmers:
1) ANXITANE® S chewable tabs contain 50 mg L-Theanine, an amino acid that acts neurologically to help keep dogs calm, relaxed www.virbacvet.com/products/detail/anxitane-l-theanine-chewable-tablets/behavioral-health
2) Composure Soft Chews are colostrum based like calming mother's milk and contain 21 mg of L-Theanine. www.vetriscience.com/composure-soft-dogs-MD-LD.php [Composure]

3) Rescue Remedy is a liquid herb combo to help with relaxation www.bachrescueremedypet.com
Other brands may be available in your area… just shop by the active ingredient(s) on the label
Try not to despair, you will get the hang of expressing him if you need to, an expert at making a bed that can handle unexpected peeing and remember that you are not alone - we are all here to help.
Keeping you in thought and prayer (((hugs)))

thankyou all for your stories, they help so much I just pray everyday that he can walk again.. he wont take tramadol so the vet is going to put it in liquid form. that is very expensive but hoping to stretch it out.. hopefully he will take the liquid. any other success stories where they walked again after crate rest is so much appreciated. it gives me so much hope. thankyou again, Happy Easter

thankyou again, i love all of these tips.... another thing I am wondering about is Parker likes to lay on his back?? It does not seem to bother him at all and he looks very relaxed. do you think this is ok being he has a back issue?? we also are going to try tramodol in a liquid form from the vet. hope it works better.. thanks

Hi Denise, I know how alone and scary this can feel, this is my second time dealing with this issue. You are doing so well advocating for Parker and learning as much as you can.

I just wanted to echo what Paula said because when I was at the vet on wednesday, she told me to get a human prescription of Tramodol instead of a veterinary one. But I knew (thanks to my friends here on the forum) that there is xylitol in the human form, so I told the vet. She went and looked it up and was surprised to see that it was true! She apologized and got me a veterinary prescription. When it comes to IVDD knowledge is definitely power!

Let us know the dose of the liquid tramadol you are giving. Xylitol is a toxic to dogs sweetner. Sounds like a poultry flavor was used instead to make the bitter taste of tramadol palatable.

Denise there is a wonderful way to search our treasure trove of information over on our main web page. Just type "glucosamine" into the SEARCH box www.dodgerslist.com/ Let us know if you have any questions about what you read....very informative info so you are spending your money in the wisest way to benefit Parker.

Denise, when dealing with the inflammation due to a disc problem, it is the heavy duty guns of either a NSAID or a steroid that is needed.

What is the tramdol dose Parker is getting every 8 hours. Is his pain fully under control dose to dose of Tramadol? IF not another pain med(s) should be added to the mix. More background reading to be able to advocate for Parker's needs: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingsweling.htm

Denise, glad to hear from you again. If Parker is wagging specifically when you do some happy talk or he sees a treat coming then nerves are regenerating. If he can move up into a standing position by himself that is another good neuro sign.

About the peeing are you seeing he attempts to squat or sniffs when he with purpose/deliberately releases urine on the pee pad inside his crate? Squatting or sniff then release tells us he has bladder control. If it is that you just find urine on the pee pad, or he leaks on you when lifted that tell us he likely does not have bladder control. Do you express him, how often?

Is he still on any meds at this point in time? if yes, what are they?

Denise, is Parker still in pain? I see that he is still on the Tramadol and NSAID. Before crate rest can be stopped, he needs to be off all medication to ensure that the swelling is gone and that the protective scar tissue is fully developed. Please discuss taking Parker off his medications with your vet. Let us know what the vet says.

All of the IVDD meds can carry with them side effects...so no one want to be using these meds any longer than necessary. With IVDD as soon as it is proved there is no longer painful swelling going on in the spinal cord, the meds are stopped. The only way to know for sure is to do a test stop, watch for pain when off of meds. IF there would be pain, then meds are needed. If no pain then there is no reason to subject the dog to all the adverse side effects when there is no benefit to be gained.

Nerve function returning is separate from medications. The body has the potential to self repair nerves, we just have to have patience to see what happens. This is the kind of information you will want to read up on in becoming a savvy IVDD dog owner:
nerve healing: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingnerves.htm
after crate rest then what: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/AfterCrateRest.htm

let us know how the stop of meds goes. We've got our fingers crossed that all of the swelling is really gone.

Can he move himself up into a standing position? We can't ask Parker if he decided to move a leg, or did his leg just move by reflexes....something like we touch a hot stove and immediately without thinking withdraw it reflexively. So us humans have to observe a head level activity (sniff, see, hear, bite, vocalize) along with a leg movement to assess if it was brain directed.

The sniff (head level) and pee test would be a good thing to try and prove if he has bladder control or not.
Does he dream (head level) and you see his legs move at all?

We look forward to hearing what you observe.

Scratching himself and standing are excellent signs of nerve improvement, Denise. It's not a good idea to pinch his toes, which will cause him to pull his legs back. Until all meds are stopped and you're sure the swelling is gone, you still need to limit his movement as much as possible. If he can wag his tail and scratch himself, he does have deep pain sensation and feeling.

The reason to continue keeping him in the crate isn't because he can't walk - the reason is because the meds haven't stopped yet so there may still be swelling/pain. Once all meds are stopped and there is no sign of pain for a few days thereafter, Parker can graduate from crate rest and gradual movement can once again start so he can build up his strength and muscles. You'll need to use a sling after he graduates since he's still falling over, but hopefully he'll start using those legs more once he's off of crate rest.