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Post by Mathew & Clyde on Mar 19, 2014 17:55:59 GMT -7
Our Dachshund, Clyde (yes - of Bonnie and Clyde  ) was starting to lose his legs a few months ago. He had hurt his back a couple of times recently before this more serious incident which turned out the same as the other times in terms of actual injury. He was sore but still got around. Most likely took a wrong landing off of a couch or chair. (yes- bad dad!) Looking back ... I really don't think the other injuries had fully healed and therefor it was progressively getting worse due to the fact we weren't restricting his activity. So once he started to struggle with his back legs we took him straight to the vet (I actually drove him in 'free ride' to the vet - DOH!) where the vet looked at him walk around falling over and said 'well, the anti-inflammatories aren't working, let's give him a steroid shot, muscle relaxer, and start him on adequan. We loaded up the Adequan then tapered it down as instructed. She did not however, stress crate rest let alone being carried to the potty yard and being held or kenneled on car rides. Instead she said she didn't see any problem with him walking around during the day. Just no stairs or jumps. So, let's just say the vet is a little dusty on back problems and dachshunds. I got home and was led to dodgers list. Immediately put him on crate rest, including carried and leashed potty breaks. After two months he is back to normal and we are working on de-training the horrible things we taught and encouraged him to do. The vet wants to keep him on the Adequan, and we agree from what we have read. A month regimen is nothing but good for a dog with back problems. We've taken measures to reverse our encouragement of jumping on couches, chairs, beds, etc. NO JUMP is the new command we are working on. A lot of work considering we spend time training them to jump on everything. Uggg.,... My question is about tranquilizers to go along with the Adequan. I asked for a tranq. or muscle relaxer and the vet tried to give us prozac, no go for me. Won't do it to my guy. I've read and would prefer to get a muscle relaxer or proper tranquilizer to calm him down a notch. He's a rowdy one. I'm looking for opinions on this. Have you done this with your rowdy dachshund? Know of it being an option for those who decide for them and their pet it's a needed tool to prevent further possible back injury? We've been using this vet as for years. Years. Since I was a child and now well into my adult life. They are very good, but as with anything no one can be best at everything. Thanks for listening and I look forward to your input on the muscle relaxers. |
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PaulaM
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Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,549
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Post by PaulaM on Mar 19, 2014 19:18:22 GMT -7
Welcome to Dodgerlist. My name is Paula what is yours? Question why is he on Adequan if all the pain is gone and it has been 2 months since the last disc episode--- guessing about Jan 29ish? -- Is there still currently any hint of pain - shivering, trembling, yelping when picked up or moved, reluctant/slow to move head or body, tight hard tummy? Let us know Clyde is not showing any signs of pain (meaning there is swelling going on in the spinal cord and the need be to be on 100% STRICT crate rest right now). -- How much does Clyde weigh? -- " the anti-inflammatories aren't working, let's give him a steroid shot, muscle relaxer, and start him on adequan" What was the exact name of the anti-inflammatory before the steroid shot? You did not mention any stomach protection. Anti-inflammatories can increase GI tract damage. Here at Dodgerslist we follow vets who are proactive in stomach protection by giving doxies 5mg Pepcid (famotidine) 30 minutes before the anti-inflammatory and thereafter every 12 hours. This directory very good to bookmark for learning about each of your dog's meds: www.marvistavet.com/html/pharmacy_center.htm What are the specific circumstances that believe a tranqulizer needs to be administered? When is he rowdy and what is the reason you think he is rowdy? What does he do when he is rowdy? Glad you have begun reading about the disease Clyde was born with. We IVDD parents have found not all vets know this disease so it falls to us become mini-experts to find a good vet, to know when harmful advise is given. This Forum is a great place to see the process, the care, etc. Our treasure trove of "All Things IVDD" resides on our Web page..have you been there www.dodgerslist.com/literature.htm There is a video lesson on training dogs to use ramps, Crate training and how to make your home back friendly, how to make furniture blockers, etc.  Look forward to learning a bit more about Clyde so we'll better know how to help you. |
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Post by Mathew & Clyde on Mar 19, 2014 20:30:31 GMT -7
Hi Paula- I'm Mathew and my wife is Heather. Let me see if I can answer your questions When we initially took him in with wobbly back legs we were given Adequan (along with the steroid shot) and told it should be a life long treatment. While we loaded Clyde up in the beginning as instructed, we were told it would taper down to a monthly shot and for life to obtain best results for a pupper (that's what we call our guys) who is prone to back problems. The Adequan, as far as we can tell and have been told, is very beneficial to the continuing positive lifestyle of any dog with back problems. No signs you mention above, and in the context you mention them. Correct me if I am wrong. Our Clyde has always been a shaker/trembler. Stare at him too long, he trembles. Got some good food going on in the kitchen he is a trembling wreck. It's just been that way since we can remember. We have chalked it up to a (excuse my harsh comparison) a crack head without his next crack fix. Better put picture yourself being cold and you get the shivers. That's the extent of our guys trembles. He is showing no signs of pain. He is not swollen, slow to move, (he's too damn fast!) has no hard tummy, or any other indicators I've read about. He is ~ 10 lbs, maybe a tad less. He is a mini.
Remadyl was the name of the chewable anti inflammatory they used. Odd thing- the first time he hurt his back they gave him Remadyl and a cortisone shot, and the tramadol. Second time he hurt his back we had to take him to different vet and they wouldn't give him remadyl/cortisone at the same time. Third time we were back at our vet who gave him rymadyl and tramadol, but no cortisone shot. This third time was just days before he started to lose his rear legs. At no time were we given stomach meds (pepto as suggested). But we warned about the stomach side effects. I swore I read, and I would like to see him on, a daily regimine of a TQ or MR. The fact that he trembles when he's 'slightly' cold, or when adult food is being prepared tells me he is tense. Tense - wrong move - pulled muscle. That's pretty simple to understand. A side from that he's the first to chase the squirrel that is no where in reach (jumping over the 1 ft retaining wall) the first to be at the front door jumping. The first to make it up the 30* hill we walk him on (used to walk him on!). On walks he pulls on his leash with as much force as a medium sized boxer. I can see the difference when I feed him his Tramadol. He's still got spunk be he's a bit more laid back. PLUS we have another mini named TINK and she is so much more docile. Granted she gets viscous, but her overall behavior is much more consistent with a dog that has an injured back I would like to see. Yes, I've been on IVDD, and even more sites since our last incident. Who wants to see their dog falling over when trying to walk. What's worse is we had no idea we were doing so much harm to him. Tear jerker for sure. I actually came here a month ago and wasn't sure where to post. Took a risk tonight and am glad I did. I have faith I can educate my vet, but if that fails I will switch. This guy, as I'm sure you understand, is my child. |
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Post by Pauliana on Mar 19, 2014 21:51:19 GMT -7
Hi Mathew! Oh I do understand, they are our kids.. a part of the family.. You aren't alone in that around here. : ) The Second vet was correct: NOTE: FDA and manufacturer package inserts warn against use of a NSAID (such as Rimadyl)with a Steroid or with another NSAID without a washout period of 4 to 7 days before starting the new medication. Vets that practice safe medicine require a 4- to 7-day washout period between the medications. This article explains more about Anti Inflammatories that work on the swelling in the spinal cord: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingsweling.htm Either one of those medications can cause damage to the stomach or GI tract, both together is compounding the damage. I am so glad Clyde didn't have any bad effects.. This is after the fact but I am saying this just for future reference. It has always been strange to me how some Vet's wait until a dog develops stomach bleeding before thinking about the damage being done to their stomach and GI tract and THEN they treat the dog.. It is far better to prevent it by giving the dog Pepcid AC 5mg 30 minutes before the Anti inflammatory and then again 12 hours later. How to make your home back friendly: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/protectback.htmNormally after the disc episode is over, the dog is off crate rest, and there is no longer any pain we don't recommend muscle relaxers or pain medications. They are more likely to hurt themselves while they are on medications because everything is being masked and they go too far in being rowdy and re injure themselves. I had to train my IVDD dog Tyler in things he was no longer allowed to do.. We use "No jump" as well as "Wait, Pauli's help!" and he wants for me to help him by carrying him. He learned quickly..Spent a lot of time teaching him and focusing his energy in rebuilding his stamina and strength, learning the new rules. It's a new normal for sure! There are more tips in the back friendly article above. Also here's one on how to ease back into life after crate rest: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/AfterCrateRest.htmSending healing thoughts and prayers and a great big welcome! |
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,549
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Post by PaulaM on Mar 20, 2014 9:43:56 GMT -7
Mathew, Pauli has covered the dangers of mixing or using in close time steroid and NSAIDs. It sure can be mind boggling during a vet visit to know all these meds and questions things on the spot. This is a good card to carry… d/l and print from here: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/MedCard.pdfAdequan - life long treatment? == if no pain no stiffness of arthritis, then why any meds? If stiffness, then makes sense to use this kind of anti-inflammatory over NSAIDs. You don’t know if there is arthritis til you go off all meds and observe. == Using meds when there is no benefit to be had, just leaves all the potential side effects. Manufacturer states: "Adequan® Canine (polysulfated glycosaminoglycan or PSGAG) should not be used in dogs who are hypersensitive to PSGAG or who have a known or suspected bleeding disorder. It should be used with caution in dogs with renal or hepatic impairment. Possible side effects (pain at injection site, vomiting, diarrhea, depression and abnormal bleeding) were mild, transient and self-limiting. Safety studies of PSGAG in breeding, pregnant or lactating dogs have not been conducted." Click here for full product information www.luitpold.com/canine/faq/faq.htm== bleeding is a concern if NSAID or steroid would need to be on board with another future disc problem. == This is a not an in-expensive product either, requiring a vet visit unless you where shown how to give the shot at home. Pepto vs. Pepcid AC: There is a difference! Any adult PEPTO Bismol product should not be used with anti-inflammatories. PEPTO caintains bismuth SUBsalicylate a derivative of of aspirin (a relative of or a drug in a same class). PEPCID AC on the other hand should be on board whenever an anti-inflammatory is used. The unwanted behaviors you mentioned can be categorized: -- Training problems1 foot retaining wall,front door jumping, pulls at leash Some of these ideas from Dr. Yin can apply , hiring a dog trainer can also be of help in redirecting to wanted behaviors. How about some of that poke in the ground garden edging fencing to prevent Clyde from jumping the retaining wall? photo: www.truevalue.com/assets/product_images/styles/large/122355.jpg ![]() -- exerciseRunning IS a good exercise to strengthen core muscles. Discourage sudden stops, turns if possible. -- anxietiesfood prep anxieties, tremblingUsing tramadol as tranquilizer is not a particularly good idea. This med is in the opiate class. If you can predict anxiety times such as when company comes over, fireworks, you can help Clyde learn to relax. Using any oral calmer in combination with a Pheromone diffuser seems to work best. It takes several days for these to start working - it isn't immediate but they are a much better option if you can avoid heavy duty prescription sedatives. Of course always keep your vet in the loop on all things you give your dog. Place a DAP pheromone diffusor at floor level where Clyde is: --Comfort Zone (DAP) wall plug-in diffuser 48ml www.petcomfortzone.com/dogs.html --Adaptil (DAP) wall plug in diffuser 48ml www.adaptil.com/ Use diffusor with one oral calmer from below: Oral calmers: 1) ANXITANE® S chewable tabs contain 50 mg L-Theanine, an amino acid that acts neurologically to help keep dogs calm, relaxed www.virbacvet.com/products/detail/anxitane-l-theanine-chewable-tablets/behavioral-health 2) Composure Soft Chews are colostrum based like calming mother's milk and contain 21 mg of L-Theanine. www.vetriscience.com/composure-soft-dogs-MD-LD.php 3) Rescue Remedy is a liquid herb combo to help with relaxation www.bachrescueremedypet.com Plain Benadryl (Diphenhydramine) with no additional medications added. Buy at your grocery store or pharmacy. Side effect is drowsiness in dogs. Get the dosage from your vet. The wrong dose can have dangerous side effects, so your vet needs to prescribe the proper amount for your dog. To be avoided with glaucoma, lung disease, heart disease, some forms of thyroid disease, prostate disease or high blood pressure. Other product brands may be available in your area… just shop by the active ingredient(s) on the label and the quantity for best price |
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Post by Mathew & Clyde on Mar 26, 2014 17:53:46 GMT -7
^^^Thanks for your reply, Paula. I was not notified of it via email - odd.
Anyways, lot's of great information.
We just got back from the Vet (both our wieners got dental cleanings / teeth pulled) and the vet gave us more Adequan.
According to the vet it is used as maintenance tool. We are going to see if we can get the max time span between doses which would be 12 weeks.
What is the consensus on Glucosamine and Chondroitin?
We LOVE the plastic pipe made chair blocker a couple posts up. We are going to make one to put in front of our stairs so the little ones don't bolt down them when someone comes to the door.
We've got pet pads that beep for our main couch, and pillows/throws on the couple chairs we have. This prevents them from jumping up on them. And ..... they hate the beeping. Those pads work great. We need to get some for out theater room and we will be dialed.
Thanks for all the great info. I will reference this thread for years to come.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,549
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Post by PaulaM on Mar 26, 2014 18:44:24 GMT -7
Mathew you can bookmark any thread, even your own, so that when anyone posts, you will get an email alert. 1. Go to Profile > Profile Edit > Notifications. Check off "bookmark" 2 Check a thread/subject. Use "ACTIONS" button to select bookmarking it The consensus on GAGs (Glucosamine and Chondrointin) is that there is no consensus. More of an explanation on our Treasure trove of IVDD information webpage. I've got this page bookmarked myself! www.dodgerslist.com/literature.htm Check out the column on "Drugs, Herbs Supplements" for the article on Supplements for the IVDD dog.... very informative! Can you share with us all about those pads that beep, how they prevent a dog from jumping up, source, price, etc.? |
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) was starting to lose his legs a few months ago. 
