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Post by Sarah & Journey on Mar 3, 2014 11:48:04 GMT -7
Hi, Im Sarah and my dog is Journey. He is a 5 year old Chinese crested. He was diagnosed with a ruptured disc in his neck on 2/22 and has been on strict crate rest since then. He weighs 6kgs [13lbs]and his medications are:
Tramadol 50mg- every 6 hours methocarbamol 100mg- every 8 hours Gabapentin 20mg- every 8 hours Metacam 5kg dose
His pain has been very hard to get on top of, we have added medications and upped doses and this is what he is getting now. He still has painful episodes about once a day. He is still eating and drinking but sometimes it takes a while for him to get up and eat. He pees every time I take him out but only has a BM every few days and when he does they are normal.
I dont know how much longer to wait before I take him to a neurologist for surgery. He still seems to get breakthrough pain and I know that slows healing. Any advice is welcome, I'm so sick with worry. Surgery here in Canada is going to be at least $10,000 and I am thinking of travelling to the US to have him seen by a neurologist there.
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PaulaM
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Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
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Post by PaulaM on Mar 3, 2014 15:12:59 GMT -7
Sarah, I'm sorry to hear getting pain under control has not been easy. You may wish to talk with the vet as there is still room to move a bit more on meds. If the pain can't be brought under control with the most aggressive use of pain meds, then certainly surgery is a consideration. =Tramadol looks to be dosed at the max =methocarbamol has room to move: www.petplace.com/drug-library/methocarbamol-robaxin-v/page1.aspx=Gabpentin also has room to move:http://vasg.org/g_drugs.htm#GABAP Discuss with your vet about Rxing 3x a day so that the needed level of gaba stays in the system more evenly (gabapentin elimination half life in dogs is 3-4 hours www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3730018 ) As an example if Rx'd approx 33mg of gabapentin 3x/day then: Divide the 100mg capsule powder into 3 equal parts by dumping into a creased pieced of paper and with a razor blade move the powder into 3 equal piles. Store the remainder of the powder piles in one of those 7 day pill boxes with a lid for each day. NOTE: both tramadol and gabapentin are very bitter tasting. Make sure you do not transfer any dust from your finger to the outside of the pill treat. I mash a piece of banana, form a ball, make an indentation. Spoon powder dose into well and close up. If necessary drap a piece of thin deli meat around ball for further tastiness! Oral Bioavailability in humans Gabapentin bioavailability is not dose proportional; i.e., as dose is increased, bioavailability decreases. Bioavailability of Gabapentin is approximately 60%, 47%, 34%, 33%, and 27% following 900, 1200, 2400, 3600, and 4800 mg/day given in 3 divided doses, respectively. www.drugs.com/pro/gabapentin.htmlNeck discs ARE very painful and take not only aggressive pain meds measures, but also doing these extra things outlined in this article: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/cervical.htmThis information on surgery will give you good perspective, costs of surgery, etc: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingsurgery.htmThere is also a consideration to move to the most powerful of the anti-inflammatories the steroid class. This would take serious discussion with your vet as a switch from non-steroid anti-inflammatories such as Metacam normally requires a 4-7 days safety washout. Any time an anti-inflammatory is on board, GI tract protection should be on board such as Pepcid AC. A switch if deemed of a an emergency situation would required double protection: Pepcid AC plus Sucralfate. The FDA and manufacturer pkg insert indicate gastrointestinal problems are side effects of using NSAIDs. The natural defenses of the stomach to shield against stomach acid is hindered when taking NSAIDs. Serious gastrointestinal toxicity such as bleeding, ulceration, and perforation, can occur at any time, with or without warning symptoms. Phrase the question to your vet this particular way:" Is there a medical/health reason my dog may not take Pepcid?" If there is no reason, we follow vets who are proactive in stomach protection by giving doxies 5mg Pepcid (famotidine) 30 minutes before the NSAID. This directory very good for learning about each of your dog's meds: www.marvistavet.com/html/pharmacy_center.htm
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StevieLuv
Helpful Member
Conservative Treatment 3x. It really does work!
Posts: 1,335
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Post by StevieLuv on Mar 6, 2014 8:05:50 GMT -7
How is Journey doing?
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Post by Sarah & Journey on Mar 15, 2014 11:15:08 GMT -7
Journey is doing really well. We increased his meds on march 1st and continued the higher dose until the 4th. On march 5th he began to act like himself again. I started tapering him back to his original dose and he has continued to do really well. I took him to the vet today and he said we can stop medication and see how he does. He also said we can stop crate rest. I have moved him to an x-pen so he has a bit more room to move around. I won't give him the run of the house for at least another week or two just to be sure. Is there anything else I should be doing at this point?
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,552
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Post by PaulaM on Mar 15, 2014 12:11:26 GMT -7
Sarah, w ith this particular disease self education is critical not just so you make sure the right things are being done for the best recovery but so you have the ability to recognize when harmful treatments are prescribed.
I hope you will spend a minute now to start your self education program with this particular article "Disc Healing" www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingdisc.htm and then read each of the articles in the Index. Because not all vets can know in depth each and every disease for each and every species (birds, dogs, cats, farm animals) it is up to you know know just one disease to protect Journey. To have the ability to question and discuss things that concern you. You will have no opportunity for concerns if just blindly following a treatment. The goal of our Forum is to support you, to teach you how to learn to look up things, question everything and read so you become the most important part of Journey's health care team. Dr. Nancy Kay, DVM, ACVIM highly recommends this kind of relationship with your vet: "Gone are the days when you simply followed your vet's orders and asked few, if any questions. The vet is now a member of your dog's health-care team, and you get to be the team captain!" www.speakingforspot.com/PDF/Medical%20Advocacy%20101.pdfThere are four phases of healing from a disc episode. Each happens with different treatments, different amounts of time. So you can quickly get in the know about each this is must do reading: www.dodgerslist.com/healingindex.htmDo let us know that you now understand why 100% STRICT crate rest 24/7 for a full 8 weeks, carried to and from the potty place and then only a very, very footsteps is so important to Journey's disc. He is on a good path of healing. We have our fingers crossed that the stop of meds will show no more painful swelling existing and he can continue on with healing of his disc.
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Post by Sarah & Journey on Mar 16, 2014 8:21:52 GMT -7
Thank you! I didn't feel good about stopping crate rest as everything I have been reading says 8 weeks. He has still been confined in his X-pen and I am still carrying him in and out to potty. Back in the crate he goes! So far he has been off all meds for 24 hours and is showing no signs of pain
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Deborah & Angel
Helpful Member
No current back issues... Living Life.. <3
Posts: 294
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Post by Deborah & Angel on Mar 16, 2014 8:35:23 GMT -7
Hi Sarah... GREAT news, so glad Journey is not having pain issues... and So glad you are keeping him crated.. You are doing a GREAT job, and Journey will be back to his "new" normal before you know it.. Hugs and prayers from my Furbaby Angel and Myself...all the way from Pennsylvania..
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Post by Sarah & Journey on Mar 23, 2014 8:27:46 GMT -7
Journey is showing signs of pain again. I have started him on tramadol and methocarbamol. I'm all out of metacam but I can get some tomorrow when my vet opens. How long should I give him pain meds for? Should I go get more metacam? Does he still need metacam at this point? I will be calling the vet in the morning but I thought I would ask here too.
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Marjorie
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Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
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Post by Marjorie on Mar 23, 2014 8:44:12 GMT -7
What signs of pain are you seeing, Sarah? Pain means there is still swelling around the spine and that needs to be addressed immediately with a return to the Metacam and all pain meds and Pepcid AC. Is there any way you can reach your vet today or even an Emergency Room vet so all meds can be started again today? The swelling is pressing on Journey's spine, causing the pain, and that pressure can also cause nerve damage.
It's not unusual for neck injuries to take longer than a month for the swelling to resolve. It's more difficult to keep the discs in the neck from moving. So arrange for Journey to get back on all meds ASAP until the vet calls for another taper. And continue with the 100% strict 24/7 crate rest, carried in and out to potty (he only has enough room in the ex-pen to stand up, turn around and lie down with his legs extended, correct? - any extra room needs to be blocked off with blankets/towels.)
Healing prayers for Journey.
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Post by Sarah & Journey on Mar 23, 2014 8:59:40 GMT -7
He's holding his head low and trembling. He is back in an actual crate, instead of the x-pen because he would try to stand on his hind legs in the pen. I will call my vet today and see if he can meet me there to get some metacam. Thank you for your help
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,552
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Post by PaulaM on Mar 23, 2014 9:01:13 GMT -7
Sarah, this page is necessary reading to understand what Metacam does and why it is used. This will give you preparation for discussing things on Monday: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingsweling.htmRecommend d/l and printing this card to carry with you to vet visits: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/MedCard.pdfAt the vet visit you want the vet to see Journey without pain-masking meds in her system. Tramadol is short acting so that if you give today as Rx’d by your vet and the last dose is before bed, it will be out of her system for an early morning vet visit. Hopefully Tramadol alone will put her in comfort, if not you may need to add the other two which are also relatively short acting…the last being before bedtime so they too will be out of the system for an early morning vet exam on Monday. Can you be specific in what you are observing as pain? Can you think of any recent action Journey may have done that would cause this pain to return since being off all meds and no pain since March 15? When there has been no pain for days/weeks and off all meds and then pain starts again, that is suspicious of the same disc having its early healing scar tissue disrupted by too much movement. Or the pain now showing could also mean another disc has had a tear. There is, of course, no way to know which unless an expensive $1500+ advanced image MRI is taken. Those are not taken until just prior to surgery to plan out the procedure. Or if during conservative treatment the pain keeps returning…to see if something else other than a disc problem might be the cause of the signs of pain.
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Post by Sarah & Journey on Mar 23, 2014 10:11:38 GMT -7
Thank you for responding so quickly with so much information. Yesterday when I took him outside he was feeling good and started moving around quickly and pulling at the leash to bark at the neighbors dog. I brought him in right away and I could tell he over did it. He seemed good throughout the day but this morning he was in visible pain.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,552
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Post by PaulaM on Mar 23, 2014 10:30:19 GMT -7
OK then it appears that Journey HAS likely had a relapse to his early healing disc. The only way for a disc to heal is with time and limited movement. It takes a disc 8 weeks to heal. I know this is not what you want to hear but crate rest count may need to start all over as of yesterday to give a recently torn disc a opportunity to form good secure scar tissue. Let us know what your vet says about this recent pain with his exam, exact details of any meds he Rx's. Can you be specific on what the "visible pain" sign(s) were/are? Have you eliminated the collar... only leash attaches to a harness? Do you have an ex-pen set up for potty time? That will eliminate any pulling as the visible and physical limit of a 6 foot diameter fenced potty place will let Journey know there will not be any darting off, sniff fests, etc.... à la Dragnet's Sgt. Joe Friday "All we want is the potty , Ma'am." Sling is used if the dog is wobbly to keep the back aligned and butt from tipping over.
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StevieLuv
Helpful Member
Conservative Treatment 3x. It really does work!
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Post by StevieLuv on Mar 24, 2014 8:48:39 GMT -7
I am so sorry that Journey is having signs of pain. I know how discouraging it is to have something like this happen when things seemed to be going so well. Keep us posted on yur Vet visit. Keeping you in thought and prayer.
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Post by Sarah & Journey on Mar 25, 2014 9:26:22 GMT -7
So after talking to the vet journey is back on: Tramadol 25mg every 8 hours Methocarbamol 100mg every 8 hours Gabapentin 20mg every 8 hours Metacam 5kg dose
He is doing well and the medication got his pain under control right away. The first time it took a week or so before we saw a difference. I'm hoping that's a good sign. At this point he still had 4 more weeks of crate rest left from the first time but he will most likely be staying in there for a full 8 weeks from now. He is eating and drinking well but he is a bit constipated. I'm watering down his kibble and giving him a bit of wet food as well to try to keep things moving.
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StevieLuv
Helpful Member
Conservative Treatment 3x. It really does work!
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Post by StevieLuv on Mar 25, 2014 9:31:44 GMT -7
Good to hear that his pain is controlled and a good idea to extend his crate rest to ensure that he is well healed. I know it's a drag but it is the best choice - you are doing a great job managing Journey's IVDD
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Post by Sarah & Journey on Mar 31, 2014 9:49:12 GMT -7
Update on Journey. He is doing well in his crate, he is showning no signs of pain. I'm going to talk to the vet today about how long I should wait before tapering his medications again. I'm nervous about taking him off meds again and having him relapse.
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StevieLuv
Helpful Member
Conservative Treatment 3x. It really does work!
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Post by StevieLuv on Mar 31, 2014 10:06:09 GMT -7
It is not unusual to have to extend the lenght of time a dog is on medications to get rid of all of the swelling. Pain=swelling=more time on medication. We're keeping our fingers crossed for a pain free taper next time
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