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Post by Missy & Tater on Feb 21, 2014 21:49:48 GMT -7
Hi everyone, I hope I am posting in the right place. If not then I apologize. I am the mommy of a 14 (will be 15 in July) Shihtzhu named Tater. He has had issues with his back for few years, degenerative disks is what I was told and they gave me tramadol and novox to give him as needed. I did just that, when I could tell her was a bit stiff and his tail was not wagging as much, I would start him on the meds and usually after a week or two he would go back to normal. Recently I noticed he had an episode, but instead of getting better he seemed to get worse. I took him to the vet a week ago today. He was diagnosed with chronic Ivvd. She told me no novox for now and gave him prednisone. He's been on it a week and I don't see much improvement. She didn't say anything about crate rest. I will be getting a crate ASAP and starting that. His front legs are fine, it is his back legs. He walks around like he is drunk pretty much. He is able to go potty on his own and is eating fine. I just cried tonight because I told my husband I just feel like he won't make it through this. Reading posts on here gives me hope. I know he won't live forever, but I am just not ready to let him go yet. He is my baby.
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Marjorie
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Post by Marjorie on Feb 22, 2014 5:50:32 GMT -7
Welcome to Dodgerslist. My name's Marjorie - what's yours? So sorry to hear of Tater's difficulties. Please let your dog know with your utmost confidence that things are going to be ok…because they will. With this disease self education is critical not just so you make sure the right things are being done for the best recovery but for your own emotions. The unknown is simply a scary place. Get ready to fight this disease now and in the future by knowing all things IVDD. There is no better place to start than on our main web page with "Overview: the essentials" and then read all you can as soon as possible. Here's the link www.dodgerslist.com/healingindex.htm100% STRICT crate rest 24/7 only out to potty for a full 8 weeks is the SINGLE most important thing you can do to help your dog-- it is the hallmark component of conservative treatment. Carried in and out to potty. No laps, no couch, no sleeping in bed with you, no meandering, scooting or dragging around during potty times. No baths, no chiro (aka VOM). In other words do everything you can to limit the vertebrae in the back from moving and putting pressure on the bad disc. www.dodgerslist.com/literature/CrateRRP.htmPlease confirm that crate rest is starting TODAY. It's vitally important to immediately crate Tater to protect his spine from movement. I've added today's date to the subject of your thread to help you and us to keep track of the 8 weeks of crate rest. Can you give us a bit more in essential information about your dog: 1. Can you please let us know when the last date was that Tater was given Novox and the date when Prednisone was started? Novox is the generic of Rimadyl, which is a NSAID. Prednisone is a steroid. There needs to be a 4-7 day wash-out period when switching from a NSAID to a steroid. Did that happen? 2. Is there still currently pain? Signs of pain are holding the head in an unusual position, head held high or nose to the ground, shivering/trembling, not wanting to move much or moving gingerly, yelping, tight/tense stomach muscles, arched back, holding leg up flamingo style, not wanting to bear weight on the leg, just not their usual perky-interested-in-life self. Tramadol works best when given consistently every 8 hours. 3. What are the exact names, dose in mgs and frequency of all meds currently being given? It's important that you be knowledgeable about each medication being given and all cautions concerning them. www.dodgerslist.com/literature/drugs.htmmarvistavet.com/html/pharmacy_center.html4. Pepcid AC should be given to protect your dog from the excess acid produced by the anti-inflammatory. Please get your vet's permission to give 5 mg of Pepcid AC (generic is famotidine) 30 minutes before each dose of the anti-inflammatory and thereafter every 12 hours). Phrase the question to your vet in this particular way: "Is there any medical reason my dog may not take Pepcid AC?" If your vet says your dog has no health issues such as liver, heart, etc to keep her from taking Pepcid AC, then do get it on board. 5. Poops OK - normal color, firmness, no dark or bright red blood? Laser light therapy, acupuncture and electroacupuncture which sends a microcurrent of electricity to and from acupuncture points (which are really big nerve bundles), can be very beneficial at helping to re-establish the nerve connections in the body. Any one of these therapies can be started right away if in your budget... they not only help relieve pain and inflammation but will kick start nerves to begin regeneration. Find a holistic vet here: ahvma.org/Widgets/FindVet.html www.serenityvetacupuncture.com/index.php/faq_/ [one vet's overview/prices] NOTE: Chiropractic is not recommended for IVDD dogs. We have a very helpful DVD that will educate you, your family members and friends, pet sitters, etc. about caring for an IVDD dog. Please see the link in my signature line. Please don't despair. IVDD is not a death sentence. Many dogs regain use of their legs and even if they don't, their lives can be happy ones. www.dodgerslist.com/index/SDUNCANquality.htmWith the only symptom being wobbly walking, Tater's symptoms are mild and he is a very good candidate for conservative care. Prayers for a full recovery for Tater. We're here for the both of you and will help you through this.
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Post by Missy & Tater on Feb 22, 2014 9:59:38 GMT -7
Thank you for your response. My name is Missy. There was no wash out time. I am upset hearing there should have been. He took a dose of novox the morning I took him and then started the prednisone that night. They did tell me to start him on 5mg Pepcid twice a day and I have done that since the day he started the prednisone. He has 50 mg tramadol that I have to cut into 4 pieces and he gets it 3 times a day. Prednisone is 5 mg, he is on it once a day now and will start once every other day in a few days. He started the prednisone on feb 14. His poops are normal and he is eating and drinking and peeing fine. He does pant a lot since on the prednisone. I did not let him sleep with us last night he slept in the kitchen on his dog bed. My husband is getting the crate put together so we can start the crate rest today. I'm going to put it next to my bed so he will still feel like he is near me. He is just about blind and has to have eye drops twice a day. He's a great dog and I pray this crate rest will work for him. Thank you for the kind welcome and I am so glad I found this site. I was thinking I was going to have to make that dreaded decision soon.
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Post by Pauliana on Feb 22, 2014 21:52:47 GMT -7
Hi Missy, I am so sorry to hear about Tater having a disc episode.. He can make it through this as many other Dodgerslist dogs have.. We have many dogs here that have lost bladder control and couldn't walk go on to recover, so don't lose hope ! Is there still currently pain? Signs of pain are holding the head in an unusual position, head held high or nose to the ground, shivering/trembling, not wanting to move much or moving gingerly, yelping, tight/tense stomach muscles, arched back, holding leg up flamingo style, not wanting to bear weight on the leg, just not their usual perky-interested-in-life self. Be especially observant for signs of pain as the Prednisone is tapered. If he does show signs of pain it means the swelling is still present and he would need to go back up to 2 - 5mg tablets per day, which is the anti inflammatory dose.. You would then need to inform your Vet so he could return to that dose until the next taper. Some dogs need two weeks and others more like a month to get the swelling down.. Also if he is still in pain, there is still room to increase his Tramadol if need be.. He's on a very low dose.. My Tyler was on half a tablet during his IVDD episodes and he's a Shih Tzu also. So discuss that with his Vet also if he isn't pain free from dose to dose.. Pain deters healing. www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingpain.htmI hope he's not in pain though, and that the Prednisone taper can continue to completion. Healing thoughts and prayers.. Tyler sends comforting snuggles over the miles..
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Post by Missy & Tater on Feb 23, 2014 10:25:10 GMT -7
Thank you for the post. Yes, he does seem to still be in pain. He tenses up really bad when I pick him up to take him out to potty. Our first night of crate rest went well. He did poop in there around 2 am and knowing him it was out of spite ?. I got it cleaned up and switched out a clean towel and he went back to sleep. He is right next to my bed. This dog is crazy spoiled. I put my shirt I wore yesterday in there too. My husband thinks I am crazy, haha. I will call the vet in the morning. I am so concerned about him not having the wash out period. How bad can this hurt him? I wish I had researched this all first. But being a concerned doggie mom I wanted immediate relief. So anyways, day 2 of crate rest is underway. He is looking at me like "what did I do?" Breaking my heart because I want to snuggle, but I know I am doing the best I can for him.
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Sabrina
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Post by Sabrina on Feb 23, 2014 12:28:56 GMT -7
Hi Missy, I'm Sabrina. I'm so glad that you are researching how best to help your Tater! He's blessed to have you! As you are still seeing signs of pain, do call whoever's on call at your vet clinic and report that Tater is still in pain and ask for the pain meds to be adjusted today. Pain control isn't a one-size-fits-all deal, so some finetuning is needed so that Tater has zero pain dose to dose. If he needs some help settling in his crate, here is a page with loads of helpful strategies: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/EmergencyCrate%20Training.htm#EmergencyconfinementAbout Tater not having a "wash out" period: the good news is that he's on PepcidAC to help protect his stomach and you're reporting that he's eating/drinking/pooing normally. Those are all great signs. What you want to watch out for is any change in eating/drinking/pooing that would signal something isn't right. (If that happens, discuss with your vet asap about adding a second stomach protector, Sucralfate: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/drugs.htm#intestinaldrugs ) IVDD is very stressful - I know how it is to worry about everything! You are doing the best thing for Tater by researching how to get him the best care possible. All is not lost just because things haven't happened ideally. You now know about 100% strict crate rest and that anti-inflammatories can cause GI tract damage. So keep Tater's stomach protected with the PepcidAC and watch for any hints that something is off (not wanting to eat, diarrhea/blood, etc). So let what you're learning help you to settle your mind - don't worry about the past! You know what to look for so that if Tater does develop GI problems (and this can happen with any IVDD dog) you know what to do. On that note: have you seen this sign to print out and put on your fridge about identifying what is an emergency with your IVDD dog? www.dodgerslist.com/literature/FridgeInfo81907.pdfIt might sound odd, but I found this so comforting! It focused my mind on what to watch out for, so that I knew I was ready to help my boy if he developed emergency symptoms. When you lift Tater, are you using this method? Hang in there! ))Hugs!((
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Post by Missy & Tater on Feb 24, 2014 13:06:30 GMT -7
I talked to the vet and they told me to give him the ▲prednisone for the next two days instead of every other day and also said I can up his dose of ▲tramadol to 1/2 tablet every 8 hours instead of 1/4 to see if that helps keep him comfortable. I got him some treats to chew on while in the crate because I feel bad for him. One issue I am having is if he poops and I am not home, he will eat some of it. What can I do about this? So gross!!!
Also, is it normal for them to want to sit up more than lay down. He sits up a lot. Today he has been more restless. I think the crate is getting old to him already. He won't eat the treat I bought him. But he is a funny boy and I can guarantee you if I put it on my bed and put him on my bed, he would eat it up. He's stubborn.
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Marjorie
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Post by Marjorie on Feb 25, 2014 6:50:40 GMT -7
Sitting up in the crate is fine, Missy. Just as long as he's not too restless and moving around too much. You can try covering the top of his crate with a blanket or towel. That creates a den-like feeling that some dogs like and might make him feel more at east in the crate. Some more ideas here: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/EmergencyCrate%20Training.htmHere's an article from the ASPCA about dogs eating poop that you might find helpful: www.aspca.org/pet-care/virtual-pet-behaviorist/dog-behavior/coprophagia-eating-fecesTry to avoid too many treats as you don't want Tater to gain weight while on crate rest. Keeping an IVDD dog slim is important. You can stuff a Kong with lo-cal treats - frozen bananas, apples or veggies. You can take some of his regular dinner - kibble soaked in low-salt broth or some of his canned food - and freeze it in a Kong so he has to work a bit to get part of his dinner. That would occupy him for awhile.
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Post by Missy & Tater on Mar 10, 2014 9:50:22 GMT -7
So we have been doing the crate rest for 2 weeks now. He took his last prednisone last Monday. Today he just really seems bad. I don't know what to do. Is it safe for the vet to give him another round of prednisone? Just wondering if I need to take him back. I have been doing the 1/2 tab of tramadol every 8 hours. I just wondered at his age (almost 15) if he can do another round of prednisone. I have some novox but I haven't given it to him. He was taking it before the prednisone. I am just having an emotional day with it all. It's killing me that I can't snuggle with him and let him sleep with me. Is there hope for him still?
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Post by Jean & Mimi on Mar 10, 2014 10:54:26 GMT -7
Missy please talk to your vet immediately and let him know of the setback. Some dogs need up to a month (or possibly even longer) on the prednisone to get the swelling down. Please let us know what your vet says. Praying that Tater feels better.
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PaulaM
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Post by PaulaM on Mar 10, 2014 11:04:14 GMT -7
Missy we are not at your house to observe for ourselves what "really seems bad" means. Can you be specific in what you observe. Are you observing signs of pain such as: yelping, trembling, tight tense tummy, arched back, doesn't want to move or moves gingerly. Are you observing signs of increasing nerve damage: As damage to the spinal cord increases, there is a predictable stepwise deterioration of functions . When nerve healing begins, often it follows the reverse order. 1. Pain caused by the tearing disc & inflammation in the spinal cord 2. Wobbly walking, legs cross 3. Nails scuffing floor 4. Paws knuckle 5. Legs do not work (paralysis, dog is down) 6. Bladder control is lost 7. Tail wagging with joy is lost 8. Deep pain sensation, the last neuro function All drugs are poisons, all poisons are drugs. So the safety in using medications is twofold. One is a vet uses them in a safe manner such as blood tests to confirm health of organs. The other safety factor is the owner who has taken time to look up each med, be aware of the adverse side effects, and know what action to take. Rule of thumb regarding pain: pain = swelling = more time on anti-inflammatory, pain meds and Pepcid AC needed. You will want read the fuller explanation quickly before getting the vet on the phone asap if you are indeed observing pain and to understand also about Novox: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingsweling.htmPlease let us know what the vet prescribes if you are observing neuro diminishment and/or pain.
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Post by Missy & Tater on Mar 10, 2014 11:49:02 GMT -7
Talked to the vet and she doesn't want to put him back on the prednisone. She said he has chronic ivvd and with those cases she likes to use the prednisone when it is needed much. I just noticed today that he is not using his back legs much at all. They kind of go straight between his front legs almost if that makes sense. She said she didn't want me to start novox either since he just got off the prednisone. She told me to watch for loss of bladder function. I just don't know what to do. He seems to get frustrated because he wants to move those back legs and he can't when he is in the crate. He does tense up when I pick him up. But other than that I don't see a lot of signs of pain. I just wish he was better and I could hold him and pet him. I just want some hope that he will get better. But realistically I know he is almost 15 and he won't live forever. I just love my boy.
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PaulaM
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Post by PaulaM on Mar 10, 2014 12:14:42 GMT -7
The reason to use prednisone is to over 7-14 days or even longer to get all the painful swelling down. Swelling =pain = need to be on medications. What about pain today, seeing any? The list above of neuro functions in a previous post is what is important to observe for. -- Can Tater still move his legs at all? Legs straight in front like a frog is nerve damage. Is the "legs straight" something new just today, an increased neuro diminishment? Swelling can pressure the nerves they do not like it and stop working (we witness loss of nerve function). If the nerve damage is new, prednisone can help to get that swelling down and quickly reverse the loss quickly. I have witnessed a reversal in a matter of an hour. Other times it can take longer. If the nerves have been dead for some time, then it is up to the body to see if it can regrow nerves to bring back nerve function. There are no meds to help nerves regrow and that healing make take many months for nerfe function to return. The dog in the photo above never was able to regrow nerves enough, so he is paralyzed and can't walk. From our IVDD readings, " Nerve Regeneration" can help you to understand more about regrowing nerves: www.dodgerslist.com/healingindex.htmIf the leg nerves have been damaged as you described just today 3/10, then I do believe it is worthwhile to be a strong advocate to get back on pred asap after a blood test to confirm organ health. Time is of the essence with meds when there is recent nerve damage/pain. Maybe even find another vet who is more comfortable in treating a disc episode, if necessary. So that we know better what is going on, please use dates and specific details so that we may better support you. We look forward to having a better idea of Tater's situation and if you chose to see another vet, a 2nd opinion vet.
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Post by Missy & Tater on Mar 10, 2014 13:14:49 GMT -7
That's exactly how he is doing. I noticed he started Saturday. I had to take my daughter to the ER Saturday so money is an issue right now. Which is why I called the vet instead of taking him in.
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Marjorie
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Post by Marjorie on Mar 10, 2014 17:04:58 GMT -7
Missy, it's most important, as Paula said, for Tater to be put back on Prednisone ASAP. There is disc material or swelling pressing on the spine that is causing this nerve damage to occur. Prednisone can help reverse that nerve damage. IVDD is chronic for all dogs - it's a lifetime disease. Your vet is not taking the correct approach saying that she only wants to use Prednisone when it's needed most. Now is when it's needed most. She wants you to watch for loss of bladder control?! I don't understand at all why she would want to wait until there is more nerve damage before giving Tater the medication he needs. He's already lost the use of his legs. She is correct that you shouldn't give him the Novox as there needs to be a 4-7 day wash-out period when switching from a steroid (Prednisone) to a NSAID (Novox). Are you seeing any signs of pain (holding the head in an unusual position, head held high or nose to the ground, shivering/trembling, not wanting to move much or moving gingerly, yelping, tight/tense stomach muscles, arched back, holding leg up flamingo style, not wanting to bear weight on the leg, just not their usual perky-interested-in-life self)? Your vet is saying loud and clear that she is not comfortable treating IVDD. Not all vets are and just don't have enough knowledge about the disease. Please look into finding another vet ASAP and get an emergency consult for Tater so he can start getting the treatment he needs. You should let the neurologist know that you just want a consult about medication. Board-certified neuros (ACVIM) and ortho (ACVS) surgical specialists can be found at University vet teaching hospitals. You can locate others in your area here: www.acvim.org [neuros] online.acvs.org/acvsssa/rflssareferral.query_page?P_VENDOR_TY=VETS [orthos] Dodgerlist Members' vet recommendations - dodgerslist.boards.net/board/10/guidelines-postingIf you have a problem finding a neurologist in your area, let us know where you live and we might be able to help you find someone. Prayers for Tater.
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Post by Missy & Tater on Mar 10, 2014 18:09:20 GMT -7
It has been 7 days since he had the prednisone. I ended up taking him to a different vet. She did a much better evaluation and he did respond to some of the things she did to his back legs, so she said that is good. She put him on
1/4 tablet of methocarbamol (500mg) every 8 hours and 1 rimadyl (25 mg) once a day and continue the tramadol [12.5 mg 3x/day].
She also did laser therapy. So hopefully some of this will help him. $200 later we are home. Good news is that it was a free second opinion. That's what they offer there. So that saved me a little money. Oh and I asked for them to do bloodwork even though he had it in July.
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Post by Pauliana on Mar 10, 2014 20:29:03 GMT -7
Hi Missy, I do hope your Tater is taking Pepcid AC 5mg (half of a 10mg tablet) every 12 hours.. 30 minutes prior to the Rimadyl and give the Rimadyl with a small meal. Haven't seen any mention that Tater's stomach is being protected.. The FDA and manufacturer pkg insert indicate gastrointestinal problems are side effects of using NSAIDs. The natural defenses of the stomach to shield against stomach acid is hindered when taking NSAIDs. Serious gastrointestinal toxicity such as bleeding, ulceration, and perforation, can occur at any time, with or without warning symptoms. Phrase the question to your vet this particular way:" Is there a medical/health reason for my dog not take Pepcid?" If there is no reason, we follow vets who are proactive in stomach protection by giving doxies 5mg Pepcid (famotidine) 30 minutes before the NSAID. Pepcid is generally considered a safe-over-the-counter suppressor of stomach acid production for a healthy dog and good insurance. Dogs don't speak up at first signs of trouble like a person would. By the time we notice black or red blood in the stools, things can quickly go from bleeding ulcers to a life threatening perforated stomach. We ask that all members read about each med their dog is on or may take as a safety measure. This directory is in alpha order: www.marvistavet.com/html/pharmacy_center.htmwww.dodgerslist.com/neurocorner2/stomachProtection.htmHope the new vet and having him back on an anti inflammatory helps reverse the nerve damage. Methocarbamol is a great for muscle spasms.. Hope he feels better very soon and I know when he does, you will feel better too..
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Post by Missy & Tater on Mar 11, 2014 3:40:42 GMT -7
Yes, he is back on Pepcid. He was on it with the prednisone also. He seemed really stiff and sore this morning. Could it be from the exam? He went potty last night when we got home but wouldn't go when I just took him out. Back legs wouldn't work. I hate for him to pee all over himself again. I have to go to work shortly. So I will be checking on him and if he does I will get him cleaned up and dry. Will try and take him out one more time before I go too. Does the laser therapy make them sore?
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Post by Missy & Tater on Mar 11, 2014 7:31:47 GMT -7
He did go pee pee before I went to work outside, yay!! I have him his meds and he was resting nicely when I left. I only work until 2, so not too much longer until I can check on him again.
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Marjorie
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Post by Marjorie on Mar 11, 2014 7:35:09 GMT -7
Please make sure that Tater still has the ability to urinate on his own, Missy. Take him out to a spot where he's gone before, let him sniff and see if he can release urine. Hold his hind end up using a sling. Finding wet bedding or seeing that he's peed on himself while in the crate would indicate that his bladder is overflowing, not that he's urinating on his own. If he isn't able to urinate on his own, you'll need a hands on your hands demonstration on expressing from your vet. Here is our page on expressing with a video in case you need it: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/Expressing.htm The laser therapy shouldn't make him sore. If anything, it should relieve pain, if done properly. Good job on getting him to another vet and back on an anti-inflammatory. Please keep us updated on whether Tater pees when you take him out again.
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Marjorie
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Post by Marjorie on Mar 11, 2014 7:35:50 GMT -7
Good, just saw your update and very relieved that Tater peed!
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Post by Missy & Tater on Mar 11, 2014 11:51:44 GMT -7
He did this morning. When I got home from work he hadn't wet the crate but didn't go when I took him out. He just pooped. I'll take him back out when I get back from getting the kids from school. Hopefully he will go again.
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Post by Missy & Tater on Mar 11, 2014 17:56:02 GMT -7
Vet called and said bloodwork looked great. He did have some bacteria in his urine. So she called in an antibiotic to Publix. I will pick it up tomorrow.
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Post by Missy & Tater on Mar 12, 2014 4:46:43 GMT -7
After researching Rimadyl I am freaking out. Is my dog in danger!? I am doing the Pepcid twice a day. I read horrible stories of dogs dying. Tater popped and pee peed this morning.. Yay!
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Marjorie
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Post by Marjorie on Mar 12, 2014 5:00:03 GMT -7
All medication has risks, Missy. You're protecting Tater from side effects of the Rimadyl by giving the Pepcid AC. Occasionally, a dog may still have some GI tract difficulties even with taking the Pepcid AC but that usually protects well. If you do see any sign of loss of appetite, vomiting, loose stool, diarrhea, black or bloody stool, you should immediately let your vet know. At that point, Sucralfate can also be added. Unfortunately, it's essential to get the swelling of the spine down so an anti-inflammatory is needed. It's good that you're researching the meds so you are aware of risks and contraindications between medication and can take the proper precautions. Two good places to research meds are: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/drugs.htmwww.marvistavet.com/index.html
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Post by Missy & Tater on Mar 13, 2014 3:57:26 GMT -7
Just wanted to let y'all know that Tater walked last night and this morning. It's the first time he has used his back legs since Sunday. He is not real steady but he is trying. I was floored last night when he did it!!!
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Marjorie
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Post by Marjorie on Mar 13, 2014 5:01:12 GMT -7
That's absolutely wonderful news, Missy! The Rimadyl has obviously gotten some of that swelling down so it's not pressing on the nerves and the nerve damage is reversing. Kudos to you for being a strong advocate for Tater, getting that second opinion and getting him back on an anti-inflammatory. It's made all the difference! Keep up the good work!
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Post by Jean & Mimi on Mar 13, 2014 6:49:47 GMT -7
Missy that is amazing news. You have done such a great job with Tater. Fingers crossed for continued nerve regeneration
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Post by Missy & Tater on Mar 13, 2014 11:55:20 GMT -7
I could not have done it without this board. I would not have known to start the crate rest. This second doctor said that was very important!! I am about to be home after I get my girls from school. Can't wait to see how he is feeling since I left this morning. I love my boy and I will do whatever it takes to help him get better. I need to post his picture so y'all can see how cute he is. I can't do it from my phone, I will try to do that today or tomorrow. He's a handsome baby. Thanks ladies for your support. He is so important to me and I am thankful for all the help! ❤️
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Marjorie
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Post by Marjorie on Mar 14, 2014 6:06:00 GMT -7
What an adorable photo, Missy!! He's a sweetie. Please keep us updated. Blessings to you both.
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