Sabrina
Helpful Member
My Charley-dog, a Dodger'sList grad enjoying life!
Posts: 471
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Post by Sabrina on Dec 11, 2013 16:35:06 GMT -7
Hi Lauren! Like Paula said: Pred is one med you should not use unless you are under the supervision of a vet who monitors and helps with the taper. A taper of Pred is a health necessity so that Lacie's adrenal system can "wake up" again gradually, and a vet needs to direct how to do this safely for a dog of Lacie's weight. Have you called around to see if any general vets in your area are knowledgeable about treating IVDD with conservative treatment? IVDD dogs need to be under a vet's care, and if you can find a knowledgeable local general vet who is willing to research/learn/work with you as the owner, I'd imagine this would not be as much of a financial burden as travelling to a specialist. Here is a page with tips for finding a vet, if you haven't seen it already: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/VetchkList.htmDid Lacie have bloodwork done before starting meds? If so, was there anything abnormal they were monitoring? Also like Paula said: Until Pred has been tapered and the pain meds stopped as well, you really don't know if there is still pain and swelling. I'm glad to hear Lacie hasn't yelped today, but as she did last night there may still be swelling causing pain. ))Hugs!(( - Sabrina
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Post by Lauren & Lacie on Dec 11, 2013 18:21:29 GMT -7
I made an appt with a vet near my house for Sat. I hope they know about ivdd, the vets said they have had other cases. But I think any vet could lie anyways. But yea it will be better than going far for specialist who seems to want to do more than I can afford or than is needed. She had blood work in beginning and it was fine. Her glucose was a little high but nothing they were concerned about..and thought maybe it was from cortisone shot they gave her first day of problem. Which that shot did nothing. I can never speak to the specialist by phone it is always her vet techs who call me back so I was not told how to taper. I have many prednisone left so should I continue for a little longer or ask how to taper that tomorrow? Or wait til sat when I see a vet? But yea the specialist wants blood work and exam fee plus if she prescribes something new that's more money and the point should be to crate rest and get off pills..so at least going to regular vet I dont have to do blood tests. Unless I want to use prednisone further then she said I would need blood work for test kidneys etc. So I hoping to taper off meds and just use tramadol or nothing. Was it safe that I didn't taper gabapentin?? I ran out tues morning (last dose) so that was never 'tapered'. I did read the links u send and that one too about finding vet....as far as regular vet it just says what questions to ask..I just had to ask if the vet was familiar with disc issues. Both said yes so I hope they're not lying for business. The vet I originally went to first day didn't even think she was in pain and was guessing she had pancreatitis..then he thought seizure and didn't think she was helpable and to try to get her to walk...so that was upsetting he didn't recognize pain or any symptoms. But let me know about tapering meds now or ask vet sat? And about if it was ok to not taper gabapentin. How long can she be on these kinds of meds if she's still in pain?? So far no yelps today either.
And yesterday I had car problems and my hood came off my car almost but luckily didn't crack windshield but that's why I missed the specialist appt. Luckily me and lacie were ok. But I had to go to my in laws house with lacie in her pet carrier to get help from my father in law. So she was put upstairs in her carrier in a room with door shut for an hour. I had a blanket over carrier and her carrier opening against a bed so she couldn't get out. ( I didn't have carrier door attached ) but when I got upstairs to go get her to leave, I found her walking/standing out of the carrier! I quickly put her back in and left the house but I've been worried that she hurt herself getting out..she must have pushed and bent herself to get out which is not good. I was shocked she did that. So far I havnt seen any signs of pain so I think its ok and she didnt further hurt herself. Ive just had bad month and I worry sometimes Lacie might not walk again even though I have seen good improvements since it all began but I feel like I can't find a good vet and would if its not even ivdd? I believe it is but she never got official diagnosis. And I'm concerned that seeing vet and not neurologist is not as good for Lacie. Yet I dont like how she never talks on phone and won't help me until I come in etc. Are there a lot of cases where young Chihuahuas get better
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PaulaM
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Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,611
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Post by PaulaM on Dec 11, 2013 20:54:52 GMT -7
You need a vet who will communicate with you via a phone call if there is a need to update on pain or anything important. I would get an appointment with a local general DVM vet who can help be there to monitor as you taper under his supervision off of prednisone. During the taper the pain meds should also be backed off or stopped so that there is a clear picture of whether any swelling/inflammation is still present in the spinal cord. Your job at home during the taper of Pred and the backing off/stopping of pain meds it to observe for any hint of pain and immediately report that important info to the vet.
If there is no pain showing on the taper then it continues and after that NO meds of any kind are needed. Meds have completed the mission of resolving painful swelling. Next is to finish out the rest of crate rest til graduation date to let the disc heal.
I'm sorry you had such a day yesterday. Let us know that Lacie continues to NOT show any signs of pain from her escape.
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Post by Lauren & Lacie on Dec 12, 2013 7:21:53 GMT -7
I will ask about tapering Saturday when I see regular vet...I never 'tapered' gabapentin ..is that ok? I just ran out....on tues. .... But she's still on prednisone and tramadol and pepcid. So far still no yelping thank God.
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PaulaM
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Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,611
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Post by PaulaM on Dec 12, 2013 17:53:56 GMT -7
Some vets taper or back off the pain meds and some do not. It is Prednisone that MUST be tapered off and under the supervision of a vet.
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Post by Lauren & Lacie on Dec 12, 2013 18:39:33 GMT -7
I was reading jeans Mimi thread. ..and I saw in one post u had said not to use topical flea med on ivdd dog. Why is this? In Oct we found out our dogs had fleas and the vet gave them certifect . (Instead of frontline) A month later this ivdd started showing up ..but I noticed around the same time she didnt feel like doing stairs or much jumping.
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PaulaM
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Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,611
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Post by PaulaM on Dec 12, 2013 19:28:06 GMT -7
Many topical flea medications contain neuro toxins… doesn't seem like a good idea with a dog that has a neuro disease…Intervertebral Disc Disease. As always, we need to stand in the position of Captain of our dog's health care team, we need to know the active ingredient of all meds, look them up and decide if we want that for our dog… what is the risk vs. the benefit, what other options are there? You may be interested in the conversation in this thread: dodgerslist.boards.net/thread/300/
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Post by Lauren & Lacie on Dec 12, 2013 19:48:29 GMT -7
I know but this was before she got ivdd.....so do u think getting the flea med caused her ivdd ?
I asked everyone and they thought no. ..but nuerologist kinda said something like 'anything's possible'.
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Marjorie
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Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
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Post by Marjorie on Dec 13, 2013 7:37:25 GMT -7
Hi, Lauren. IVDD is a disease that Lacie was born with. As to whether it could have caused this particular disc to rupture or tear, it's hard to say. The problem is that there haven't been enough scientific studies done to make a determination one way or the other. But it is known that flea meds kill fleas by attacking their nervous systems so it's not something I want in my dog's system.
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Post by Lauren & Lacie on Dec 14, 2013 18:42:09 GMT -7
Thanks for info ...I didnt know she was born with ivdd. I guess being predisposed means she was...but just never sure when it would show up
Went to vet and filled vet in with everything that's happened cuz she was new vet and she called nuerologist after to ask about tapering. Actually got a hold of nuerologist and we are going to taper prednisone to 1/2 tablet morning and night. Then also I am going go see how she does with getting 1/4 tramadol every 12 hrs instead of 8 hrs.
She said she was able to move her neck fine except there was a little discomfort moving neck downward. But so far she is doing well and still doesn't need gabapentin. So hope the last few weeks on crate rest go well. She also said she may not walk that great at first or ever..so im concerned with that but hopeful lacie will figure out how to walk again. She said to come back in 2 weeks for recheck or go to nuerologist but ill prob go to new vet. She said when she spoke to nuerologist that they still recommend blood work but I said I dont think theres a need to do that in order to check kidneys since prednisone is a high dose and they wanna check her but I said theres no point when she has to have it anyway and its being tapered.
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PaulaM
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Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,611
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Post by PaulaM on Dec 15, 2013 9:46:05 GMT -7
This is good to hear that your new vet went the extra step to communicate with the neuro. We all will be anxious to hear how the taper of both prednisone and backing off tramadol goes. The hope, of course, is that you will NOT see any signs of pain resurfacing. Pain would tell you there is still swelling going on and the need for blood work to check the health of organs and the use of Pred for a bit longer before trying another taper. If there is no pain the Pred taper continues to the finish and tramadol is stopped… no meds needed just crate rest until graduation day.
Please do keep us all updated!
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Post by Lauren & Lacie on Dec 20, 2013 18:59:30 GMT -7
Tonight I forgot go give her the pepcid at 630 and her pills at 7 so I ended up giving all 3 at 730 but the last hour shes been feeling itchy cuz shes scratching behind her left ear and I held her and pet her and she didnt do it when I put her back down she started again. Do u think shes itchy cuz her meds were behind or skin dry? I just hope shes ok and nothing is wrong. Then she looks at me like shes gona bark. Now she's turned around and is laying. But I looked at her ear and fur and dont see fleas or flea dirt. But shes looking at me and barking a little. I have no clue what's bothering her. This is a first.
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PaulaM
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Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,611
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Post by PaulaM on Dec 21, 2013 9:14:44 GMT -7
The pills should not have anything to do with an itchy ear. If you feel this is not an occasional thing dogs do (scratch their ears) you may want a vet to take a deeper look into the ear.
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Post by Lauren & Lacie on Dec 22, 2013 7:45:59 GMT -7
Something was bothering her, she was itching it a lot. But she stopped ... No she never did that before esp like something was on her ear. Last time she got itchy was when this all began and she itches her right side so much she got a scab and they had to shave her side. Luckily she quit that. They thought it was cuz she felt like pins and needles nuerologically.
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Post by Lauren & Lacie on Dec 24, 2013 12:36:17 GMT -7
Lacies graduation is next week so on January 1st what should I do? She will still be on prednisone and tramadol so should I start letting her walk? Her vet appt is jan 4th. She already gets antsy sometimes and wants to walk. So when do I start letting her walk and move around? Any special things I need to do? Besides no furniture and use ramps? I dont want her to hurt her legs cuz they wobble
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Post by Pauliana on Dec 24, 2013 21:24:23 GMT -7
Hi Lauren, Lacie shouldn't go off of crate rest until she is completely off of all her medications. Is she still tapering the Prednisone? How often is she getting the Prednisone and Tramadol now? When she is off all medications and without pain then she can graduate crate rest. The reason being, a dog that is still on medication may over do it and injure themselves.. Here is some info on how to handle life after crate rest is over.. When Tyler graduated crate rest I followed this to the letter and he did very well. www.dodgerslist.com/literature/AfterCrateRest.htmKeep in mind it's a good idea to crate Lacie when you aren't home to supervise, especially since she is still wobbly. Hope to hear very soon that she is ready to graduate crate rest..
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Post by Lauren & Lacie on Dec 25, 2013 6:03:49 GMT -7
Ok ill call vet tomorrow because we are tapering prednisone and I only give tramadol every 12 hrs also. But I saw the vet almost 2 weeks ago so I wonder why she didn't tell me to taper more I want to start letting her try to walk soon its gona be 8 weeks next week. Guess ill call tomorrow bit I hope she doesn't tell me she cant tell me how to taper further without nuerologist telling me because im not going there anymore most Likely. Merry xmas!
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Post by Pauliana on Dec 25, 2013 18:41:24 GMT -7
Merry Christmas Lauren!
Ok, let us know what the Vet has to say.. Will keep you both in my thoughts and prayers..
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Post by Lauren & Lacie on Dec 26, 2013 15:12:18 GMT -7
Lacie has not seemed in pain once for a long time now but today I was rubbing around her neck and she tried to nip a little so I dont know if that's cuz she thought I'd hurt her or if it really hurt. Cuz I dont normally scratch her neck but I've pet aroind it. Does this mean she shouldn't graduate next week? Shes still on her pills anyway and vet wasn't there today so I gota call tomorrow. She always moves in all ways and neck goes up and down and she lays in diff positions so I dont think shes in much pain if any but maybe scratching aroind that area is sensitive.
She also stands a lot and tries to walk but I dont let her. I need to find out what to change dose of prednisone to taper..its been almost two weeks from last decrease shouldn't I lessen the dose?
oh and I forgot to mention that I gave her pills at 10 a.m. Instead of 8 a.m. So does that make a difference? I forgot to do 8 o'clock so I had to give it to her at 10. and before she was on a 7 a.m. and 7:00 p.m. schedule but because of the holidays I had to change the hours
2 hours later: she's been barking in her cage for over an hour I think it's because she wants out. If she was in pain why would she be barking she would be laying down and being quiet in pain. I dont know if I should give tramadol of its pain or if its just that she wants out??
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PaulaM
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Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
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Post by PaulaM on Dec 26, 2013 19:17:21 GMT -7
The reason why is is not a good idea to cease crate rest, is because no one has verified all the swelling is really gone. There is only one way to do that. That is a taper off of prednisone with the supervision of a veterinarian-- your general DVM vet is qualified to supervise a pred taper. Pred is one med you can not fool around with. A vet needs to supervise, tell you the dose and exactly how to taper. All pain meds would also stop or be backed off. Both you and the vet want to have a clear picture that there is no pain on the going off of Pred. Once the taper has been completed and there is no sign of pain, THEN you can end crate rest. Then starts a slow re-entry to physical activity. A good sample schedule here will let you plan out one for Lacie: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/AfterCrateRest.htmI would avoid rubbing her back, her neck, etc.
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Post by Lauren & Lacie on Dec 27, 2013 10:38:05 GMT -7
Ok thank u
I just spoke with the vet that I am seeing for a follow up next Saturday and she said to taper the prednisone to 1/2 in the morning and 1/4 in the evening. I did not ask about tramadol but I am just going to continue as normal but since she won't be off crate rest I will have to make sure I am moving her legs a little bit so they do not atrophy since its been 2 months. she said that the neurologist said that it might not be a disc problem it may have been an autoimmune problem so it could be more than a couple months. But at least prednisone dose got changed.
Is it ok to place lacie in a patch of sun so she can enjoy that?
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Marjorie
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Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
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Post by Marjorie on Dec 27, 2013 17:07:39 GMT -7
Sure, it's fine if you want to move Lacie's crate into the sun. It's best for her to stay in the crate, though, as Paula explained. They can so quickly do the unexpected when out of the crate. Or if you have an small ex-pen (no larger than the crate) that you can set up in the yard where she can sit while being supervised, that would be OK.
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Post by Lauren & Lacie on Dec 31, 2013 6:22:25 GMT -7
Lacies prednisone dose is 1/2 in morning and 1/4 at night but as it continues to taper im assuming it will be 1/4 &1/4 next...but then after that maybe '1/4 and then nothing at night' but that means it could be another month or even more and shes supposed to be done on crate rest this week. I kmow she wants to be able to do more and to start walking /learning but I cant let her. Its not fair she has to go a month longer because no vet looked om the calendar and counted out 8 weeks and planned a taper. I had to ask myself. Do u think I could only give the tramadol once a day and or stop completely and if she seems painless to THEN let her do more??
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Marjorie
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Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
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Post by Marjorie on Dec 31, 2013 7:50:26 GMT -7
No, Lauren, as long as she's on the Prednisone, there's no way of telling if she still has swelling around her spine. Until you know for sure that the swelling is gone, she'll need to be crated with limited movement of the spine. The only way you'll know if the swelling is gone is after the complete taper of the Prednisone and the stopping of all meds to see if there's pain.
What you could do is speak to the vet about his plans for tapering, explain the situation and possibly he could speed up the taper. The taper might not have to go as slowly as you assume it might. But you do need his guidance to taper and you should follow his instructions. It's much better to be safe and have Lacie crated for additional time than to have a relapse.
Let us know what the vet says about his plans for the taper.
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Post by Jean & Mimi on Dec 31, 2013 7:56:38 GMT -7
I had a very long taper with my Mimi on her Dexamethosone, and had to extend her graduation date by 2 weeks. Yes, it was really hard, but honestly, so worth it for our peace of mind. The only way I dealt with the extra two weeks was knowing that it was for her own good and safety (ensuring that she wasn't in any pain) and the way I figured was it just gave an extra two weeks to make sure that scar tissue was good and strong.
During those last two weeks, she was standing all the time in her ex-pen. She had had it and was constantly scratching at it to be let out. The only way I could calm her was if I sat right next to the ex-pen (completely up against it) so that she could lay right against it on her side. She at least could feel my warmth through the bars of the pen.
Hang in there...it's frustrating but will be worth it.
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Post by Lauren & Lacie on Jan 4, 2014 12:18:01 GMT -7
I went to vet today and it went well she said shes pretty much the same from 3 weeks ago even with the lower dose of prednisone and that she was a little better overall. I said she can stand abd tries to walk sometimes but falls but I try to keep her from walking. She said I could give her apple or carrot etc like I did before. I wonder why now I can and before I couldn't . Shes still on pepcid anyway. Also she said I could let her /guide her to walk a little bit each day so her legs get used more.I wasn't sure I should really let her but she said I could. She said it miggt not even be a disc issue ...they said from beginning it could be auto immune. Anyway I think ill guide her to walk a couple feet here and there abd see what happens. She siad its been 8 weeks and its time to let her walk a little.
Also said it was ok to stop the tramadol so I am gona stop as of tonight to see if she is painfree
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PaulaM
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Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,611
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Post by PaulaM on Jan 4, 2014 18:26:12 GMT -7
Yes, it might not be a disc issue, but then again it could be a disc issue. There is no way to tell without expensive advanced imaging. I would wait til she is fully off of pred AND fully off of Tramadol. When you know there is no pain, THEN at that time you begin a very slow plan of re-introducing physical activity.
What dose of pred is she currently on (mg's and how often)? What is the end date the vet gave you for being totally off of Pred?
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Post by Lauren & Lacie on Jan 5, 2014 11:04:40 GMT -7
is it okay for my other Chihuahua to share the cage area or bed with Lacie now?
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,611
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Post by PaulaM on Jan 5, 2014 14:21:26 GMT -7
Lauren, crate rest is until she is fully off all meds and showing no pain. Crate rest means only one dog is in the crate, no people beds…crate rest is 100% STRICT rest 24/7.
I don't know specifically what to answer you as you didn't answer my questions in the previous post regarding her current meds.
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Post by Lauren & Lacie on Jan 5, 2014 15:04:21 GMT -7
She said prednisone 1/2 in morning and 1/4 in evening for One more week. Then next fri I can lower to 1/4 & 1/4 im supposed to call her when I do in case theres any change but for now I guess it seems slowly tapering 2 weeks per decrease. So prob another month.
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