barbara2
New Member
Hi I'm River. I just turned 3. I had surgery on 11/13/2013. Mom is terrified and so sad
Posts: 15 
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Post by barbara2 on Nov 19, 2013 3:56:17 GMT -7
Hi, I'm River and I am a 3 year old mini wire hair. I went down and couldn't get up just like that. On November 13, 2013 within hours, my doctor said I had no deep pain sensation and I better have surgery, then "it's a matter of luck" I had left T13-L-1 hemilaminectomy with fenestration. Mom and dad are confused about what I can do except of course stay in my crate. It's nice and all, but I am doing best to convince them to let me out. So one day after surgery the doctor said I MIGHT have sensation in my right hind, then none, then in my left hind, then again none. I can feel my tail they say, but I don't really know. Sometimes they said I peed on my own, then they expressed. Sometimes I just let go when they pick me up to take me out. It's all very confusing. i am on prednisone, but already tapering down. Mom was very upset when she found out that they didn't give me Pepcid in the hospital They said they could'nt get it and were trying to keep costs down?  Mom says that's nonsense and I am on pepcid 2.5 mg bid. I also have tramadol 3 times a day and another sedative that knocks me out. I slept til 4 am and stayed dry. Dad can express me, and mom so far, who is a nurse cannot! Hopefully today I'll start acupuncture. Do you know which is better? Acupuncture or laser? Also moms worried that the prednisone might not be enough. I get 5 mg tonight and tomorrow night, then every other day. |
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Marjorie
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Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
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Post by Marjorie on Nov 19, 2013 7:50:11 GMT -7
Welcome to Dodgerslist, Morgan and Barb. I'm sorry to hear of River's problems with IVDD but he's gotten through the surgery and now can heal. It can be difficult, even for vets, to determine deep pain sensation. If he can feel his tail, then he would have deep pain sensation. If he's peeing when you pick him up, then his bladder is overflowing. That should be avoided as it can stretch out the bladder and make bladder return more difficult. How often are you expressing? While on Prednisone, he will be more thirsty and may drink more and should be expressed every 2-3 hours. Here is our info on expressing: here: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/Expressing.htm Good job on getting him on the Pepcid AC! How much does River weigh? What is the name of the sedative? Are you seeing any signs of pain at all? shivering, trembling, yelping when picked up or moved, reluctant/slow to move head or body, tight hard tummy? Eating and drinking OK? Poops OK - normal color no dark or bright red blood? What directives did the surgeon give for crate rest and for PT? I personally found more benefit from acupuncture than laser light, though there have been good results from both. www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingacupuncture.htmAlso, once the stitches/sutures are taken out, hydrotherapy can be very helpful and some of these exercises can be done right in the bathtub (get permission from surgeon before starting): www.dodgerslist.com/literature/watertherapy.htmNerves can take a very long time to heal, think more in terms of months, even a year or more. There will still be swelling from the surgery and as the swelling is still be pressing on the nerves, don't be surprised if you don't see too much improvement right away. This is a link to our IVDD 101 page, again lots of great IVDD info here. Some will apply to you now, some down the road and some not at all. But do read and get up to speed on this disease. www.dodgerslist.com/literature.htmBlessings to you all. |
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barbara2
New Member
Hi I'm River. I just turned 3. I had surgery on 11/13/2013. Mom is terrified and so sad
Posts: 15
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Post by barbara2 on Nov 19, 2013 13:45:33 GMT -7
Hi Marjorie, thanks for your response! River is a petite 10 lbs with a Very long back. She is resting comfortably, no panting or shivering. She is eating and drinking fine. No poops yet. We are taking her out every three hours. Sometimes when carrying her it seems almost like a reflex that she lets go. I've tried the sniff and pee test. She has no interest in sniffing. She just looks at me with her big almond eyes that
seem to say "just get it over with!" Could she be getting lazy?
The sedative is acepromazine .25-.05 mg 3x day as needed, but we only used it last night when she was very upset to not be in the bed with us! It knocked her right out and she slept til 4 am and stayed dry. She does seem to have a little movement in her tail occasionally, could just be reflex?
We start acupuncture thurs pm and staples out next tues. We just adopted her and love her to pieces. She's a feisty little Velcro strip!
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PaulaM
Moderator. 
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,571
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Post by PaulaM on Nov 19, 2013 17:56:38 GMT -7
Hi is this Barbara who is writing? My name is Paula. Glad to hear River has pain controlled. About whether there is bladder control we have to go by observation. Leaking when lifted show no control as dogs will choose to waiting til in an appropriate p place to release urine. The sniff and pee test lets us know the dog has found an appropriate place by sniffing and then choosing to release urine. Until we see a dog has passed the sniff and pee test we must assume leaks in bedding or on us require our manually expressing the bladder. Dog's don't get lazy about peeing if their nerves can communicate with the bladder believe me they'd choose where to pee. With nerve damage they don't have the control to choose. So we must express to keep bladder infections from happening and to protect the tone of the bladder.
How often do you express, every 3-4 hours during the day to keep her dry and from leaking on you or in her bedding?
So put on your detective hat and let us know your specific observations on how and when urine comes out.
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barbara2
New Member
Hi I'm River. I just turned 3. I had surgery on 11/13/2013. Mom is terrified and so sad
Posts: 15
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Post by barbara2 on Nov 20, 2013 3:30:23 GMT -7
Hi Paula, This is Barbara. Thanks for clarifying that. I was home with River yesterday and took her out every 2-3. Hours. Her bedding is always dry.. I was trying to practice. I can't feel her bladder and thought maybe the pressure on it by the way I put my forearm through her hind end to carry was maybe stimulating her,. At the hospital, they said they thought just touching her made her release because she did that with them as well but who knows. My husband is a pro at it and is home the rest of the week with her.
River did have a poop in the crate last pm, it was black so am calling vet today
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Marjorie
Moderator~
Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,724
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Post by Marjorie on Nov 20, 2013 8:10:46 GMT -7
River may have a bladder that is very easily expressed and you may very well be expressing her when picking her up.
We usually recommend 5 mg of Pepcid AC for doxies though I know your River is very small and you've been giving her half of that. I would speak to you vet about increasing that to 5 mg. Please also discuss with your vet adding Sucralfate as a second stomach protector.
Please let us now what your vet says after speaking to them.
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barbara2
New Member
Hi I'm River. I just turned 3. I had surgery on 11/13/2013. Mom is terrified and so sad
Posts: 15
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Post by barbara2 on Nov 20, 2013 14:44:46 GMT -7
Hello, River saw the vet today for a strong smell in her urine. He is sending for culture because he's not sure she has bladder infection. He thinks not. We have upped the Pepcid and added sucralfate at my request. I've used it on another Doxie in the past.
River is being a gem in the crate now. Normal looking poop today, and crate is always dry. She has been eating and drinking fine, but just now looks like she's turning her nose up at it so will need to keep an eye on this. She was picky when we first adopted her about 3 months ago, but my other Doxie is a chow hound, so River started imitating her in the quest for food. All three eat separately twice a day but if one finished before the other, they then took to hovering over the one still eating. River would occasionally flip a kibble away from her bowl just to get em going! She is a rabble rouser! And that hasn't stopped just because she's confined. She has this low soft growl she makes if the other two are 'not. Doing right' in her mind
Today is day 7 post op and the vet told us before surgery that if a dog doesn't get DSP back in 7 days, they aren't going to. But from reading this site, I think anything is possible. I have told him about Dodgers list and got his approval to start the first 4 passive PT exercises that I found here. River has first acupuncture tomorrow night. Amazingly hard to get an appointment in the Philly area.
We will perservere
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StevieLuv
Helpful Member 
Conservative Treatment 3x. It really does work!
Posts: 1,335
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Post by StevieLuv on Nov 20, 2013 16:31:59 GMT -7
You are right to stay optimistic - no one can predict how much function will return, not even a surgeon. River is doing just fine, it sounds like her personality is just shining through.  Thanks, too, for taking the time to give a comforting and encouraging word to other members, we are in this together, and any encouragement helps |
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barbara2
New Member
Hi I'm River. I just turned 3. I had surgery on 11/13/2013. Mom is terrified and so sad
Posts: 15
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Post by barbara2 on Nov 20, 2013 16:42:45 GMT -7
Thanks StevieLuv. Urinalysis came back neg! River seems frustrated to not be able to move. When out for sniff and pee, I swear she looks around at her hind end like Wht won't you cooperate? Breaking my heart
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StevieLuv
Helpful Member
Conservative Treatment 3x. It really does work!
Posts: 1,335
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Post by StevieLuv on Nov 21, 2013 10:10:15 GMT -7
Keep your spirits up for River's sake - if you are sad and stressing she wil pick up on it. Pep talks all around, they will do everyone some good (((hugs))) |
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barbara2
New Member
Hi I'm River. I just turned 3. I had surgery on 11/13/2013. Mom is terrified and so sad
Posts: 15
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Post by barbara2 on Nov 21, 2013 15:02:56 GMT -7
River is the same. We are going to acupucture #1 soon. Can't wait. She spotted a squirrel on one of her sniff and pees today and the front part of her body tried to take off. She was a relentless squirrel chaser. All the squirrels in the hood were afraid LOL. Still no movement, and no release with a sniff. I STILL can't express her, but my husband is a pro at it. River seems comfortable, no yelping or panting. She does shiver but always has, and it is quite cold here now. Keeping large towel over crate to prevent drafts and keep her tiny little body heat in. Good appetite, normal looking poops that just kind of slide out. Don't see a pattern to them just yet but our hours are kind of mixed up. This is a lot of work but she is so worth it. Keep us in your prayers
Wow! River had her first acupuncture with some e stim last night. It was amazing! I have some body work to do on her called tuini. It's mostly a series of skin touch working down her spine, down tail to top. Pressure spot kind of behind the knee then pressure in front of the large pad, and between the toes at the webbing until I get a response. She is withdrawing with great strength, and was kicking like a mule last night. Her body is much more relaxed. Her short hind legs were almost spastic. Will call vet to see about getting some methacarbamal today at this vets suggestion. . Her reflex responses are much stronger on the right. This doctor thinks she will be able to support her hind legs within 3 sessions. That would be great for expressing.
We learned, KEEP their nails trimmed (yea that's easy) trim pads for better traction. I knew about the nails but she just doesn't tolerate it. We are adding Chinese herbs. It's nice to feel like we are actively (yet passively) doing something for her,
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Marjorie
Moderator~
Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,724
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Post by Marjorie on Nov 22, 2013 14:36:15 GMT -7
Just a word of caution about Chinese herbs if River is still on prescription meds, Barbara. It's very hard to tell what's in those herbs and how they will interact with what River is already on so it would be best to hold off on them until all other meds are stopped. Or Google all of the herbs being given and see if there are contraindications. www.chinese-herbs.org/All the best to you and River. |
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barbara2
New Member
Hi I'm River. I just turned 3. I had surgery on 11/13/2013. Mom is terrified and so sad
Posts: 15
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Post by barbara2 on Nov 22, 2013 14:43:14 GMT -7
River is having a great day! I don't know if it's the herbs, one is 'body pain', the other is for disc nourishment, the acupuncture or if she was just going to be this way 9 days post op. Much more alert and animated, chewing away on her chewy (and rubbing it in the other dogs faces) I still cannot express her consistently and she has had some leaking in her crate. My husband is home and he can easily express her and is every 2 hours. Not sure what to think about this. I watch and he gets a lot out until it drips drips. (she's always had a high volume bladder and peeing was always the middle thing on her mind, squirrels being the first and last) She would go out and get so involved with keeping every squirrel up in its designated tree that I would have to focus her to get to work and pee, then she would squat for a LONG time, even if she'd just been out.
She seems to occasionally weakly wag her tail to voice, doesn't seem to be passing the sniff and pee but just seems better. More like her old self, the tiny clown
Thanks Marjorie, will do. These were given by a VMD that did her acupuncture and asked what meds she is on. I will look them up to be sure. Thanks for the heads up
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,571
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Post by PaulaM on Nov 23, 2013 9:31:32 GMT -7
Barbara, good news on the tail wag! You can expect that bladder control will be the next neuro function to return. Often dogs will then not like you expressing and it may be harder to do. Still you until you are confident they can fully void the bladder, you would still do a quick express check after they would pee on their own.
Nerves heal typically in the reverse order of the damage to the spinal cord:
1. Deep Pain Sensation (Only correctly identified by a specialist.)
2. --->Tail wagging with joy at seeing you or getting a treat or meal.
3. Bladder and bowel control verified with the "sniff and pee" test.
4. Leg Movement, and then ability to move up into a standing position, and then wobbly walking.
5. Being able to walk with more steadiness and properly place the feet.
6. Ability to walk unassisted and perhaps even run.
What is the name/brand of the chinese herb? What is the purpose of the prescription?
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barbara2
New Member
Hi I'm River. I just turned 3. I had surgery on 11/13/2013. Mom is terrified and so sad
Posts: 15
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Post by barbara2 on Nov 23, 2013 10:40:51 GMT -7
Hi Paula, I think she passed the sniff and pee just now with sling walking, unless the sling expressed her! I got a hearty tail wag as well, unrelated to the pee! I think she night have also supported her weight briefly, unless I am seeing things. The way her hind legs cross and hang, I could be seeing things.
It's hard to tell exactly what the herbs are. They are produced in Riddick FL where there is one of 3 training centers in the country for holistic vets who do acupuncture. The herbs are 'tea pills' she calls one 'body sore' tea pills. It has Angelica, Corydalis, paeonia, ligusticum, among it's many ingredients, the other is called Bu Yang Huang Wu tea pills which contain astragalus,Angelica, lumbrucus. I.believe it is for disc healing and health.
River is resting well and hasn't required tramadol in 24 hours. She is calmer, more relaxed overall, more alert and back to her old self, except not being able to walk. Good appetite, normal poops. We are all keeping calm and carrying on. No matter what, we will love and care for her
10 hours later:
River definitely has the pee response with sniffing, but doesn't empty completely. She was fussing in her crate, she wants to sit with daddy, so to show us her displeasure, she turned away from us and looked like she bore weight on her right leg! Her personality is back!
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Post by riverspapa on Nov 24, 2013 8:01:02 GMT -7
Ten days out from surgery and getting reaction to pinch between webbing of feet, think it is reflexive rather than pain sensation. Good? Bad? Too early to tell?
River is a three year old Wired Haired Dachshund who had ruptured disc between L1-L2. Had surgery and we are doing acupuncture with herbs.
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Post by Julie & Coco on Nov 25, 2013 3:17:33 GMT -7
Barbara - so happy to hear that River is improving, thank you for your kind words about my Coco. I will keep your girl and family in my prayers. You sound like you are doing terrific, so positive and upbeat, River is a lucky girl to have such a dedicated family.
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Post by Britanny & Baxter on Nov 26, 2013 12:21:21 GMT -7
Jlclay3567 can I just say that I love your profile picture! I have a dachsie who looks just like that and you can see how much you love yours in this pic.
And Barbara, River looks just like our Baxter who is going on his 4th week of crate rest recovery after surgery, they could be twins!
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Post by Julie & Coco on Nov 28, 2013 3:37:15 GMT -7
Thanks, my husband took that pic the first time we got to visit with her after her surgery. I don't like to be licked much so I taught her to put her cheek against mine and let me kiss her when she was just a baby - in the pic she's presenting her cheek for love. My husband says she's my furry soul mate - so true! I need her every bit as much as she does me.
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barbara2
New Member
Hi I'm River. I just turned 3. I had surgery on 11/13/2013. Mom is terrified and so sad
Posts: 15
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Post by barbara2 on Jan 1, 2014 6:58:05 GMT -7
Hi, long time no update! Hope everyone had a good holiday and here is to a better 2014. River is slowly and steadily improving. She can walk a few steps now and just squatted to pee! She still can't empty though and we are on our second bladder infection. The therapy vet recommends something to help her bladder contract so I need to call the surgeon. She continues with acupuncture and had her first formal PT session. Lots of equipment. Couldn't find the physio ball in stores so ordered online. We found the perfect size yoga mat to roll up and put under her belly while she stands and we "irritate" her by pinching her paws and tweaking her behind. It causes her to use her back legs while positionally correct. She's not a fan of it! We are getting somewhere and feel certain she will walk. The bladder being the biggest issue  |
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Marjorie
Moderator~
Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,724
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Post by Marjorie on Jan 1, 2014 7:43:54 GMT -7
That's wonderful news, Barbara! So glad to hear River is doing well.
As for the bladder control, since she isn't emptying her bladder, you and your husband will need to express after she goes to help her to do that. I know you were having some problems with expressing the last time you mentioned it. Has that been going better for you? Letting her go as much as she can and then expressing to empty as much as you can will help prevent bladder infections. When the bladder is empty, it will feel like your fingers are almost touching as you press on the bladder.
I'm moving your thread over to the Updates section since River has finished with crate rest. Prayers for continuing improvements for River. Please keep us updated. And please feel free to share the knowledge that you've gained through this experience with our other members!
Blessings to you all.
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Post by Jean & Mimi on Jan 2, 2014 8:16:45 GMT -7
Congratulations on graduation!!!
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Mom says that's nonsense and I am on pepcid 2.5 mg bid. I also have tramadol 3 times a day and another sedative that knocks me out. I slept til 4 am and stayed dry. Dad can express me, and mom so far, who is a nurse cannot!
