Tana & Poppy
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Post by Tana & Poppy on Nov 10, 2013 7:37:55 GMT -7
my weenie is 4 years old her name is Poppy. She was diagnosed 1 year ago. She has stopped responding to medications and crate rest. We are going to try acupuncture. She shivers all the time.Her back is very hunched,seems to pee and poop ok, low tail wage. is currently crated. on Tramadol, Gabapentin and metacam. This is her 2 episode this year. Not sure what to do now. The vet recommend a neurosurgeon visit is this my only option now? I am so sad for her.
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Post by Eileen&Maria Rose on Nov 10, 2013 8:04:28 GMT -7
Hi Tana, I am not a moderator but please check back because one of them will get back to you shortly. They will help you! Please know that there is hope! -eileen
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PaulaM
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Post by PaulaM on Nov 10, 2013 8:40:03 GMT -7
Tana, welcome to Dodgerslist. You and your have many options to get things right for Poppy. For that to happen you will have to take the lead roll, become the captain of POppy's health care team. REading will allow you to move into that roll. This page will get you up to speed on how conservative treatment works, the meds, and alternative therapies to help during the 8 weeks rest in her recovery suite. IVDD 101: www.dodgerslist.com/healingindex.htm -- What was the date you saw the vet and started the all important 100% STRICT crate rest 24/7 only out to potty for this current disc episode? …. STRICT means No laps, no couch, no sleeping in bed with you, no meandering, scooting or dragging around during potty times. No baths, no chiro (aka VOM)? -- She IS still in pain because the pain meds are not yet correct for Poppy's needs. Today your vet or an ER vet needs to know of your observations of shivering, hunched back so he can adjust the meds. From IVDD 101 this page will explain the meds you should expect and advocate for including frequency for Tramadol: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingpain.htm-- What are the exact names of meds currently given, their doses in mgs and frequencies? Please include the all important stomach protector such as Pepcid AC. Phrase the question to your vet this particular way:" Is there a medical/health reason for my dog not take Pepcid?" If there are no issues of heart, kidney, etc, we follow vets who are proactive in stomach protection by giving doxies 5mg Pepcid (famotidine) 30 minutes before the anti-inflammatory and there after every 12 hours. -- Can your dog specifically still sniff and squat and then release urine or do you find wet bedding or leaks on you when lifted up? -- Eating and drinking OK? -- Poops OK - normal color, firmness, no dark or bright red blood? -- If there is pain or neuro diminishment, dogs can benefit greatly with acupuncture or laser light therapy. These therapies can be be started right away to help relieve pain and to also to kick start energy production in nerve cells to sprout. So if this therapy is in your budget, seek out a holistic vet. ahvma.org/Widgets/FindVet.htmlwww.serenityvetacupuncture.com/index.php/faq_/ [one vet's overview/prices] Chiropractic is not recommended for IVDD dogs.
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Tana & Poppy
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Post by Tana & Poppy on Nov 10, 2013 13:41:53 GMT -7
I had used this "quick reply" earlier , but its disappeared. Oct 22 was the beginning of her last episode. She is on 10mg tramadol twice a day gabapentin 15mg once a day metacam 7.5kg once a day. no stomach protector, I've never heard of this until reading the threads,.
Now, the first time (last November) the vet had her on 8 weeks of crate rest and she did much better. This time she gave her 10 days worth of medication and 3 weeks of crate rest. She was also surprised Poppy has had another episode so close to the last one, with her also being only 4 years old. is this normal?? its hard to digest all the info she tells me when its such an emotional visit. I have been feeling very alone and sad. I'm glad I have you all now for support.
shes pooping good and peeing fine, eating well, drinking a little less, but she seems sad no leaks on the bed or when lifted so that's positive? I admit its been hard to be strict with the 24/7 crate rest. but I understand the short term outways the longterm . I don't want her in pain, so I need to take her to the hospital again, which is hard because they have not the best team here where I live . sadly.
Thanks so much ! it has been an emotional couple of days and the support has lifted me up
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Post by Eileen&Maria Rose on Nov 10, 2013 14:35:56 GMT -7
Tana, It IS very scary up until the point when we feel like we know what is best to do! I think it is the not knowing and the fact that the pup is in pain. Each one of us has had that feeling of fright. Catch a breath and read. Post questions and you get answers.
We are going through it for the second time now with my Maria. It is a milder case than most but 8 weeks is 8 weeks! Once your little Poppy is OUT OF PAIN you will feel so much better! That 'seems' to be the most 'urgent' part of this whole thing. Once healing starts to take place then you will have plenty of time to absorb the info you need. One step at a time! -eileen
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Marjorie
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Post by Marjorie on Nov 10, 2013 14:44:04 GMT -7
Hi, Tana. How much does Poppy weigh? Poppy is being under-medicated for pain and those medications need to be adjusted ASAP. Poppy cannot begin to heal until her pain is under control. Have no patience with pain. It's most important that her pain meds be adjusted so there are no signs of pain whatsoever from one dose to the next. From some of the things you mentioned that your vet has said, it doesn't sound as though she's too familiar with IVDD. I, too, think a consult with a neurosurgeon would be in Poppy's best interests. Just because you're consulting with a neurosurgeon does not mean that Poppy is headed for surgery. Sometimes an expert's eye is what is needed to make the appropriate adjustments in medication so Poppy can heal. Discuss the conservative approach with the neurosurgeon. If you're not happy with the hospital in your area, see if you can find an IVDD knowledgeable vet or neurosurgeon near you by searching at this site: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/VetchkList.htm8 weeks of strict crate rest is always what it takes to heal a disc. Poppy has a lifelong disease and any one of her discs can rupture or be torn at any time. Some dogs only have one disc problem in their lives and others have several and sometimes those episodes can be very close together and sometimes years apart. IVDD is usually seen between 3-7 years of age. Yes, it's very good that there are no leaks of urine in the bed or when lifted and that Poppy still has bladder control. Is she showing neuro deficits in her legs? Knuckling? Wobbly walking? Acupuncture can be very helpful in giving nerves a jump start to heal and can also help with pain. But mainly, those pain meds need to be adjusted immediately. Please let us know what steps are taken to get Poppy's pain under control.
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PaulaM
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Post by PaulaM on Nov 10, 2013 14:52:39 GMT -7
Tana, let us know how much Poppy weighs. I'll guess she is 12-20 lbs?? If yes, she is being WAY under medicated for pain. You need a vet's help today to get pain control right. --Tramadol is not likely to control pain unless given every 8 hours. Your vet has much room to move up in dose from the low 10mg. -- Gabapentin…same it can be prescribed 3x a day and much more than 15mgs. Please do get her stomach protected…Poppy doesn't need another problem of bleeding ulcers on top of what she is dealing with. It is not til dogs are usually 4-7 years old that the first signs of pain let the vet and the owner their dog was born with a progressive degenerative disease of the discs. Some dogs will have only one disc episode their entire life while other can have multiple episodes. Let us know which city/state you are in, our directory or another member may know of a more IVDD knowledgeable vet. Directory is here: dodgerslist.boards.net/board/10/guidelines-postingLet us know the changes in meds the vet made today to get pain fully in control. You will need to observe and give feedback til the vet gets pain med combos, doses and frequencies just right for Poppy.
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Tana & Poppy
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Post by Tana & Poppy on Nov 10, 2013 15:10:21 GMT -7
Poppy weighs 15 pounds. she is very barrel like with her rib shape. Her first episode was within her ribs and one in her lower lumbar (she had x-rays the first time) This time they did not take x-rays, and the vet guessed it was within her mid to lower back. ok, a visit to a surgeon doesn't scare me so much now that I know that is doesn't mean surgery is then only reason for the visit. limited knuckling , but yes, she has .
every now and then it appears that one of her hind legs tilts in slightly, but I'm not sure if I'm looking for something so hard, that its not really there.
so my plan, now that I'm able to think again and have stopped with the water works ( much thanks to all !!) -adjust meds -acupuncture -neurosurgeon visit. -and 8 solid weeks of crate rest, complete with the strength needed to ignore all pleading looks, whimpers, cries ect from Poppy.
Thanks again so much ! I have focus now and support. there are no words to express how helpful this has been . I will keep up with the progress. Reading all your stories too, keeps my strength up and hope alive. xox
almost forgot, ...I'm in Victoria , British Columbia. Canada
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PaulaM
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Post by PaulaM on Nov 10, 2013 16:10:34 GMT -7
canadawestvets.com/ is in Vancouver with neuro ACVIM specialists. Hopefully another member may know of a more IVDD knowledegable general DVM vet you could use locally in your city of Victoria. The key to staying with a local DVM vet who is not comfortable with IVDD is your ability to read and learn, question everything and confidence to move up in to a more leadership role in Poppy's health team. The other thing is if your local DVM vet would be open minded to learned what you have learned here. If your DVM vet is willing to confer with colleagues who know IVDD to gather more knowledge. The goal of our Forum is to support you, to teach you how to learn to look up things, question everything and read so you become the most important part of Poppy's health care team. As Dr. Nancy Kay, DVM, ACVIM says: "Gone are the days when you simply followed your vet's orders and asked few, if any questions. The vet is now a member of your dog's health-care team, and you get to be the team captain!" www.speakingforspot.com/PDF/Medical%20Advocacy%20101.pdfSo if your local vet is willing to use the necessary aggressive pain meds to get full control of pain… you should discuss the pain meds typically used with your vet and advocate very strongly for them. www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingpain.htm IF not you are going for a neuro consult and telling them upfront, you are doing conservative treatment and want adjustments to pain meds your local vet did not feel comfortable doing.
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Marjorie
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Post by Marjorie on Nov 10, 2013 16:35:43 GMT -7
Tana, I just wanted to share this link with you so if you do consult with a neurosurgeon, you'll be armed with the information you need regarding when surgery is a consideration. As you can see from this webpage, none of these considerations for surgery apply to Poppy. www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingsurgery.htm
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Post by Mary Jane&Kingking on Nov 10, 2013 18:48:01 GMT -7
keep researching and being Poopy's advocate. I have learned so much on this site!
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StevieLuv
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Conservative Treatment 3x. It really does work!
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Post by StevieLuv on Nov 11, 2013 9:20:53 GMT -7
Canada West Veterinary Specialists and Critical Care Hospital P.: 604.473.4882 I have been to their Burnaby location for other services for a different dog. Awesome facility and wonderful staff. I had to drive down from the Interior, but you would be looking at the Ferry - perhaps give them a call and see if they have any recommendations on the Island.
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Post by Jean & Mimi on Nov 11, 2013 9:35:27 GMT -7
Just another mom chiming in, but I wanted to say that we use a local vet and have decided to use only two doctors out of the practice for Mimi's treatment of this disease. The third doctor didn't listen to us, and believed that his way was best (even though he's only been a vet for about 1.5 years). The other vets listened to us, understood our concerns and work with us to treat Mimi, not against us. Having a vet you can trust and work with is critical.
By the way, Poppy is just adorable!!!!
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Tana & Poppy
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Post by Tana & Poppy on Nov 11, 2013 21:23:16 GMT -7
thanks so much again. The hardest part of today...her 100% crate rest...she tried to eat her way out of the crate, and got her jaw stuck between the bars. She was in so much distress being alone in there. We do have another weenie, who's bed we have kept beside her for company, but this doesn't seem to be enough Any suggestions??
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StevieLuv
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Post by StevieLuv on Nov 12, 2013 10:02:13 GMT -7
Have you tried keeping her crate with you? Some members have crates in each room, some have casters or a wheeled platform underneath the crate so that they can move it from room to room. You might want to consider a kids playpen, the netted sides will allow her to see and keep her from getting her jaw caught, but then again she might try to chew her way free. The solid sided airline type crates might work too, but they can be isolating. Have you tried to cover the top of the crate with a blanket to creat a den like space? some dogs like that too. Here is a list of oral calmers that might help. Oral Calmers Oral calmers: 1) ANXITANE® S chewable tabs contain 50 mg L-Theanine, an amino acid that acts neurologically to help keep dogs calm, relaxed www.virbacvet.com/products/detail/anxitane-l-theanine-chewable-tablets/behavioral-health 2) Composure Soft Chews are colostrum based like calming mother's milk and contain 21 mg of L-Theanine. www.vetriscience.com/composure-soft-dogs-MD-LD.php [Composure] 3) Rescue Remedy is a liquid herb combo to help with relaxation www.bachrescueremedypet.com Other brands may be available in your area… just shop by the active ingredient(s) on the label. If these don't do the trick you can ask your Vet for a light sedative or tranquilizer to help her get used tot he idea that she is stuck in the crate for the duration. Hang in there!!
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Tana & Poppy
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Post by Tana & Poppy on Nov 13, 2013 21:18:53 GMT -7
thank you! I have had her crate on my bed with me at night , did the blanket trick...no go. talked to our vet yesterday, and she is going to give her something to make her less active. she would definitely chew netting..she grabbed the blanket next to her , pulled it thru the bars , and ate some huge holes in it. We are hanging in there.!!Its SO HARD, to see them unhappy. Im also going to look into the oral calmers you suggested. Thanks again so much... long distance hugs!!
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Post by Nancy & Polly on Nov 14, 2013 17:20:00 GMT -7
Having had a dog eat through a metal crate, incurring $1000 in dental bills, I feel your pain. If you have to add a tranquilizer of some sort, then you have to. You can't let her hurt herself more. It's so hard, isn't it? If you could just explain to her.....
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Post by Nancy & Polly on Nov 16, 2013 16:01:22 GMT -7
Every time I look out over Puget Sound in your general direction, I wonder how you and Poppy are doing. Update?
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Tana & Poppy
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Post by Tana & Poppy on Nov 20, 2013 16:36:07 GMT -7
Polly's mom... that is the nicest sentiment. She is starting her first Acupuncture session tomorrow morning!! I hope it goes well. I have Zero idea on what to expect . The therapist didn't really say much on the phone. So I hope she has a good conversation with me tomorrow . She is only on Metacam at the moment. Her movement (tho limited) is much better. We may be coming out of the woods.. for now... Also.. Thank-you to all!! this has been the most positive experience !!! made a HUGE difference!! xoxo
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Post by Nancy & Polly on Nov 20, 2013 20:00:37 GMT -7
Good news! Hope the acupuncture helps.
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Tana & Poppy
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Post by Tana & Poppy on Nov 28, 2013 22:04:01 GMT -7
So an update!!! Poppy is doing SO WELL !! The acupuncture has done amazing things for her. She also had some chiropractic adjustments to her hips (they were wayyy off) She is almost acting like her old self. She has one more acupuncture session to go in her series of 5 this Monday. She actually fell asleep during it and was able to do the whole 20 mins!! The therapist was amazed at how well she did . She has started going on small walks again. I am seeing the light at the end of this tunnel, and ready for anything else that may come down the pike. Knowledge truly is power!! Thanks again to all who gave me encouragement, support and love. Without even knowing us. This is such a special site. I will be following as many others as I can, and wishing them the same support and love !! xoTana
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PaulaM
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Post by PaulaM on Nov 29, 2013 8:22:18 GMT -7
Here below the boarder from Canada we've been baking turkeys yesterday. The reason I mention this is a turkey can look like it is done with skin browning nicely on the outside. But take that turkey out of the oven before the full baking time has been completed, you will find it is not fully cooked with pink juices running out!!! Poppy is alot like a turkey, she is not fully baked! It takes 8 weeks for the disc to finish forming good secure scar tissue. Until that happens Poppy can look fully baked on the outside..walking well happy, pain free, but on inside that disc can very easily tear causing a great deal of pain and putting her spinal cord at jeopardy. Poppy has been very fortunate to have dodged a bullet with those Chiro adjustments and the small walks. Please give Poppy every opportunity possible to continue to heal properly, by going back to the true principals of conservative treatment. The hallmark part of conservative treatment is the 100% STRICT crate rest 24/7 only out for a very, very few footstep at potty time. No going on walks, no chiro (aka VOM), no laps, no couch, no sleeping in bed with you, no meandering around during potty times. No baths,. In other words do everything you can to limit the vertebrae in the back from moving and putting pressure on the bad disc. We all have had experiences where those who do not know fully about disc disease have offered dangerous treatment to our dismay. So the responsibility falls to us owners to know this disease inside out in order to protect our dogs. Why your IVDD dog should not see a chiro, most especially when there is a current disc episode: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/chiropractic.htm What going on walks movement and chiro can do to a disc that is trying to heal: What medications is she still on if any? Does she still knuckle, wobbly walk?
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Tana & Poppy
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Post by Tana & Poppy on Nov 29, 2013 10:59:56 GMT -7
the therapist did explain that she was not doing an area that impacted the spine. She was very thorough in her explanation .The doctor said small walks to help keep her muscle up as she is very weak in the back end . She is still on rest. Good to know that even 10 min walk can re-injure her. !! She is still on metacam , no wobbly walking or knuckling. I am going to address this chiro issue with her on Monday along with her advice to be walked. I'm annoyed to know she was putting her at risk. I didn't know what VOM was. Thanks for the info . She is doing much, much better tho, so I'm at least grateful for the acupuncture being a sound decision.
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Marjorie
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Post by Marjorie on Nov 29, 2013 13:42:04 GMT -7
Tana, muscle loss that results from crate rest quickly comes back once they are allowed movement again. My Jeremy finished up a round of 8-weeks of crate rest this summer and within a week of a gradual re-introduction to movement, his legs were much stronger and in just a few weeks, his muscle tone was back to normal. Limited movement is the key to successful conservative care and is what is most important at this point. The only therapy that is beneficial now is acupuncture or laser light treatment.
Blessings to you both.
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Tana & Poppy
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Post by Tana & Poppy on Nov 29, 2013 21:06:54 GMT -7
thanks ... So much to learn. I am still pretty annoyed at the whole thing. Only continued rest and acupuncture. I am still way more optimistic than I was when a month ago. Thanks as always, so wonderful....
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Tana & Poppy
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Post by Tana & Poppy on Nov 30, 2013 11:13:36 GMT -7
Quick question for this morning... I'm feeling confused. My vet recommended the acupuncture therapist, who also did the chiro on Poppy, (which I now know was the wrong thing to do) So who am I supposed to be listening to?? The vet or the recommended therapist who has been telling me to now start decreasing her Metacam to a lower dose. She is doing better, yes, But after a lot of reading and watching the recommended video's which led to more links to more video's.... seeing the result of bad practise and decision's. I think I'm starting to panic a bit. Poppy IS doing much better. So its working ,I think , or maybe its just the rest doing the job. Poppy hasn't been on a painkiller now for a couple weeks, and I've been told she doesn't seem to be in pain. She does seem to be pretty happy , however, they heal better on medication from what I understand. I think my head may pop off.
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Sabrina
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My Charley-dog, a Dodger'sList grad enjoying life!
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Post by Sabrina on Nov 30, 2013 15:48:25 GMT -7
Hi Tana! There is so much to read about IVDD! I remember when my dog was first diagnosed how many times I had to read and re-read all the Dodger's List articles before things started falling into place in my addled brain! Maybe take a few minutes to read over again all the linked articles from this index page: www.dodgerslist.com/healingindex.htmThen, see if you are noticing any signs of pain, such as: holding the head in an unusual position...head held high or nose to the ground, shivering/trembling, not wanting to move much or moving gingerly, yelping, tight/tense stomach muscles, holding leg up flamingo style...not wanting to bear weight on the leg, just not their usual perky-interested-in-life self. If there are no signs of pain, then it would be prudent to "test" and see if the Metacam has done it's job to control the swelling/inflammation. If while on the lower dose you see any signs of pain return, then you know that Poppy needs a longer time on the anti-inflammatory. All drugs have side-effects, so if the Metacam has done it's job and Poppy doesn't need it anymore, then it's time for her to be off of it. But keep both eyes out for any signs of pain, that would tell you she does still need the anti-inflammatory dose. www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingsweling.htmI know it's a lot to wrap your head around! Take another look at the 4 Phases of Healing from a disc episode (scroll down a bit on this page): www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingpage.htm(1) Pain relief while (2) the anti-inflammatory resolves the swelling/inflammation causing the pain. (3) 8 wks of crate rest while Poppy's body develops secure scar tissue to protect her healing disc(s). (4) Regaining neurological function which can happen weeks, months, or years later - there is no "expiration date" for healing! ))Hugs!(( - Sabrina
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StevieLuv
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Post by StevieLuv on Dec 1, 2013 10:21:02 GMT -7
Accupuncture can do a world of good Just tell the accupuncture therapist that you do not authorize any chiropractic adjustments or mobilization. You are the boss, you hired them and you can find another one if needed. It is good to hear that Poppy is doing so well
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Tana & Poppy
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Post by Tana & Poppy on Dec 1, 2013 21:43:41 GMT -7
Thanks Sabrina and Stevieluv I see her in the morning. It kinda felt at the time like I was backed into a corner. She did "Ask permission" along with an explanation of how it isn't anywhere near the injury only her hips. It sounded like she knew what to do since she works on weenie's, I trusted her . So I am reading, and reading and reading. I clearly don't know half of what I need . Thanks for the links. This is her last treatment in her series for now, so I suppose I will just be keeping her rested and see how it goes, while doing my research. just over 3 weeks left.
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Post by Pauliana on Dec 1, 2013 22:29:27 GMT -7
Hi Tana, You are learning more all the time. I know you will be a wonderful advocate for Poppy. Just stay firm on the no Chiro at that appointment. Accupuncture and Laser) are wonderful and beneficial therapies for IVDD.. www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingacupuncture.htmSending healing and soothing thoughts..
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