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Post by mismaxcod on Nov 9, 2013 17:07:01 GMT -7
Help please. This is my little buster, he is 13 years old and loves to chase squirrels. This past Tuesday we came home and his little tail was tucked and he was whimpering and walking a tad off. I put him in the bed and he just had a hard night. We took him to the vet and they took xrays but wasn't showing anything that really needed surgery. He has never been away from us in 13 years and only been in the car twice. They kept him until this morning, (Saturday) but the vet just called and said he hadn't improved like they had hoped. At the end of the day he seems to be doing better but by next morning he is stove up again. He said he barks and wants out or wanting attention that they just don't have time to give. He thinks we should look toward surgery. I personally think that he is scared and not being around the only family he knows is keeping him from progressing. Any thoughts on this? I just went and bought a kennel that is in the bed where i can lay with him. He was sent home on 6mg of prednisone twice a day. I also have some tramadol for pain. But he doesn't seem to be in much pain. This afternoon he has stood to go to the bathroom but very week in the back legs. He does seem to have control of bowels and peeing.
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StevieLuv
Helpful Member
Conservative Treatment 3x. It really does work!
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Post by StevieLuv on Nov 9, 2013 17:36:35 GMT -7
Hi, my name is Maureen, what's yours? Welcome to Dodgers List, I'm glad that you found us! 100% STRICT crate rest 24/7 only out at potty times for 8 weeks is what allows the disc to heal. Movement is what tears the weak and early healing scar tissue on the disc. No laps, no couch, no sleeping in bed with you, no meandering, scooting or dragging around during potty times. No baths, no chiro (aka VOM). In other words do everything you can to limit the vertebrae in the back from moving and putting pressure on the bad disc. So true conservative treatment with the single most important part of the care…crate rest…. starts today. The crate is the only surface that is firm, supportive for the spine, not inclining, always horizontal and keeps a dog from darting off at a TV doorbell and safe from other pets and kids from bothering them. The rest of the details of doing crate rest to ensure the best recovery in this excellent document: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/CrateRRP.htm-- How much does Buster weigh? -- You said that he seems to be pain free, so the signs to watch out for that would indicate pain is present would be - shivering, trembling, yelping when picked up or moved, reluctant/slow to move head or body, tight hard tummy. -- What are the exact names of meds currently given, their doses in mgs and frequencies? Pepcid AC to protect the stomach should also be on board. We follow proactive vets and give our approx 13-20 lbs doxies 5mg 30 mins prior to Pred. Phrase the question to your vet in this particular way: "Is there any medical reason my dog may not take Pepcid AC?" -- Currently can your dog wobbly walk? move the legs at all? or wag the tail when you do some happy talk? -- Eating and drinking OK? -- Poops OK - normal color and firmness, no dark or bright red blood? In the early days of learning our dogs have IVDD, everyone needs a shoulder to lean on while getting things figured out, dealing with emotions, getting up to speed on meds, what disc disease is, etc. Your job in the coming days is to become a reader so you become the confident leader of the health care team.... to discuss confidently various issues from medications to recognizing if suggestions of activity would be harmful to the healing disc. All that takes being a reader. Start on our main website with "Overview: the essentials" yellow button it will give you the degree of understanding you need right away…. as time permits continue to read all the orange buttons and the blue button "Disc Disease 101 core readings" to complete your education. Here is the link www.dodgerslist.com/healingindex.htmWe are here to help you in any way that we can. Please keep us posted on Busters' progress.
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Post by mismaxcod on Nov 9, 2013 17:59:05 GMT -7
buster weighed 22 lbs when he went to the vet on Wednesday 11/6. He can't get up good so he is peeing alot while he is laying down. We have made it out 3 times this afternoon to pee. Should i get him a diaper to wear? He is eating great and barking with the rest of the dogs. He does wag his tail some when happy talking. He doesn't seem to have any trouble moving head or neck. The vet said it was ok to be in vet, but after reading some of the dialogue on here i think i need to get the crate back upon the bed and make him stay in it. He has been drinking a ton of water this evening. The only thing the vet has him on is 6 mg of prednisone twice a day. When i took him out earlier he did start to shiver but it is also pretty cool here. His tummy does seem to be tight. He can stand for a few minutes at a time and i keep my hand under him to steady him. On Tuesday night he was wobbly walking and i put him in bed with me the rest of the night. Since then not hardly any wobbly walking at all.
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StevieLuv
Helpful Member
Conservative Treatment 3x. It really does work!
Posts: 1,335
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Post by StevieLuv on Nov 9, 2013 18:12:53 GMT -7
You are right to keep him in his crate 24/7 - only out to potty. He will need to urinate alot while taking prednisone, often every 2-3 hours, and he will also drink alot more. Diapers aren't a great way to manage this- their sensitive noses and all. You can by pee pads at Walmart or some such and line his bed with those, topped by a piece of polar fleece to wick the urine away from his skin. Are you using a sling to support his back end when taking him out to potty? It really helps hold him up and saves your back a bit too. Tail wagging is a great sign!! We live and learn about things like putting them in bed with us- and not all Vets know about IVDD and conservative treatment. Your job is to learn as much as possible about this disease, so that you can be Busters' best advocate and help your Vet learn too. Keeping you in thought and prayer
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Post by mismaxcod on Nov 9, 2013 18:43:39 GMT -7
oh ok. Polar fleece where do you get that. Seems like i had a blanket with polar fleece. I haven't been using a sling how do you do that or where do you get one?
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PaulaM
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Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
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Post by PaulaM on Nov 9, 2013 19:24:26 GMT -7
Do keep an eye on that shivering. Shivering/trembling after moving IS a sign of pain. Does the shivering stop if you put a warm towel from the dryer over him. Prednisone is not a pain reliever. It can take days for swelling to subside. In the meantime a disc episode is normally quite painful. Let us know your reassessment on the shivering…chlly or in pain. 22 lbs prednisone corrected to: 4mg twice a day. I also have some tramadol ?mg's ?/day? Pepcid AC is a must when on pred. Let us know you have this med on board…. It's a good idea to read up on each of his meds in including Pepcid AC www.marvistavet.com/html/pharmacy_center.htmlCheck out our supplies list for tips on how to make up his bed using fleece, where to get fleece, all about slings, etc. in the pink box on the far right column: www.dodgerslist.com/literature.htm
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Post by mismaxcod on Nov 10, 2013 6:50:49 GMT -7
Ok so the shivering is from being cold. I put a warm towel around him and he was fine. I don't see any pain. The tramadol was from my Maxwell it is 50 mg. The vet said he didn't need anything for pain that he has not whimpered or cried out at all.
They only had him on prednisone 4mg a day. I'm not sure where i got 6mg twice a day. I know i went through an enormous amt of towels and bedding last night. Still haven't gone to sleep; every time i almost got asleep he started whining to change his bedding, we would get up and pee. I quit taking him outside it was to cold, found some potty pads from the puppy.
The vet said they had trouble getting him up especially in the morning. This morning he was up and trying to go. If it hadn't been for the back feet not wanting to follow through he would have been out the door. I feel like the setback was due to him being away from the family. I have a bad back and have kept myself away from surgery due to a fantastic chiropractor. When my hips are out i can't stand up and make the hips work right. This is how he is acting. You can touch his back and rub around and he never once flinches or acts like it hurts.
I am going to get some pepto today for him.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
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Post by PaulaM on Nov 10, 2013 10:27:16 GMT -7
Susie, good detective work on the shivering! Make sure you are getting Pepcid AC (active ingredient is famotidine) Pepto bismol should NOT be given as it contains an aspirin derivative, bismuth SUBsalicylate, that would be dangerous to use in combo with Pred. On the surface this may sound like a dumb thing for me to say but the anatomy of a dog is way different than a human's. LOL Ok, I think I'd better explain that. With a dog the spinal cord goes all the way into the pelvic area and is incased in vertebrae… in a human the spinal cord stops midway in the back with nerves exiting to the lower body limbs, etc.. So with a dog having a disc episode it most always entails compression of the spinal cord as a damaged disc bulges and traps/pressures the spinal cord in the bones of the back. Whereas for humans entrapment of the spinal cord is not always the case as most disc problems happen mid back. FYI, chiro is not anything to consider with an IVDD dog. A disc that tears/ruptures is likely to not just cause pain like it does for humans but will most always cause damage to nerves with dogs. So with dogs we try as hard as we can to avoid any touching of the back, massage, chiro, movement that can further damage a disc…. limited movement of the back is the goal with conservative treatment in order to protect the spinal cord from loss of bladder control, loss of leg function, etc.
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Post by mismaxcod on Nov 12, 2013 14:24:06 GMT -7
I took him to the chiropractor and she was saying pinched nerves. Granted he is standing and holding his own. He just can't get the back legs to work. when he is on his back the legs don't lay out, they lay more in. To the point of crossing at the feet. I put my other doxie on her back and her legs and feet do not lay like that. He can stand but if he tries to walk his back legs are hard to get to move and when they do move the feet curl under. While on his back if i do slowly work the legs as if he was walking he starts leaking pee on himself. I have him only sitting unless out to potty. He can't stand himself up from a sitting position.
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Marjorie
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Post by Marjorie on Nov 12, 2013 17:23:09 GMT -7
Susie, I know you have a lot of faith in chiropractic treatments since they have helped you so much. However, please take Paula's warnings seriously. Chiropractic treatments are a very dangerous thing to do with an IVDD dog and can cause more injury to Buster. www.dodgerslist.com/literature/chiropractic.htmWhat you are seeing with Buster's legs is nerve damage caused by the damaged disc pressing into the spine. The way conservative care works is to limit the movement of the spine as much as possible to prevent further damage. Please don't lay Buster on his back and move his legs. He needs to be kept in the crate 24/7, carried out to potty with only a very few steps to do his business, carried back inside to his crate and that is all. The limitation of movement will let the disc heal and scar tissue will form over the disc. Too much movement and the disc can re-tear and cause more nerve damage. It doesn't sound as though Buster has bladder control. If you take him out to a spot where he has peed before and let him sniff there, can he release urine on his own? If not, you'll need to express him. While he is on Prednisone, he'll be drinking more and will urinate more so you'll need to express him every 2-3 hours. You should get a hands on your hands demonstration of how to express his bladder. This is very important since any urine laying in the bladder for any length of time can lead to urinary tract infections. When he leaks on himself, his bladder is overflowing and could stretch out of shape and lose tone. www.dodgerslist.com/literature/Expressing.htm Have you checked with the vet yet about the Pepcid AC? It's very important to get that on board to protect Buster's GI tract from the side effects of the steroid. Please let us know if Buster can release urine on his own when you try a sniff and pee test (taking him to a spot where he has peed before and letting him sniff there). All the best to you.
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PaulaM
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Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
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Post by PaulaM on Nov 12, 2013 17:57:14 GMT -7
Susie, if you intend to give Buster every chance at being able to recover, it is going to depend on your abilities to read and understand his disease. No chiro who understands this disease would ever do a chiro treatment for a dog suspected or known to have disc disease much less during a current disc problem. In order for the disc to bulge, pinch a nerve, herniate the disc has to tear to some degree. It is the tear that we are trying to let heal with limited movement. Chiro, doing any but the very, very lightest and least aggressive range of motion and massage is cheating on 100% STRICT crate rest. Absolutely no bicycyles...that is for after crate rest is over. This information highlighted in PINK is when he is off all meds and has no pain AND is paralyzed that you then may start range of motion and massage: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/massagepassiveexercises.htmI am very worried about Buster's disc with the bicycles and the chiro treatment. Please let us know if you are observing any signs of pain: shivering, yelping, not willing to move too much or moves slowly, not his normal perky self. The disc has damaged his nerves and that is why they cross, the paws knuckle under. Nerves can heal and return function again. BUT only if the disc is allowed to heal and not permanently damage the spinal cord so that is never can self repair. That is what 100% STRICT crate rest is all about...giving Buster every opportunity to heal and no set backs. Not all vets or other other professionals can know every disease for all the species and breeds they treat. But you can know just one, know it well enough to protect Buster...recognize harmful advice and say "no thank you." There is no better place to get a handle on this disease than to start with this page: www.dodgerslist.com/healingindex.htmIf Buster can not sniff and old pee spot in the grass and then choose to release urine, if you are getting leaked on when you lift him, then he does not have bladder control. This is a serious health issue that can't wait...you need to go first thing in the AM for hands on top of your hands expressing lesson. Review of this information will allow you to get so much more out the lesson: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/Expressing.htmSo again put on your detective hat. Can he sniff and pee, does he leak on you when lifted or leaking in his bedding. IF yes, he likely already has a urinary tract infection (UTI). A sample of urine for the urinalyis can quickly determine if antibiotics need to be on board. Let us know, about pain, Pepcid AC and bladder control...we are anxious to hear about Buster.
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Post by mismaxcod on Nov 20, 2013 6:03:21 GMT -7
He hasn't wet himself nor has he had any accidents. he goes outside and sniffs and pees and poops. His feet have stopped curling and he is standing on his own. IF he isn't in a hurry he can take a few steps without me balancing. But i haven't allowed him to do that often. I am continuing to keep him still and allowing the disc to heal itself.
he hasn't had any leakage since last thursday 11/14
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Marjorie
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Post by Marjorie on Nov 20, 2013 8:00:56 GMT -7
It's good to hear that Buster is doing so well, Susie. His healing is coming along very nicely! Good work on keeping him still. Please keep us updated on his progress.
Blessings to you both.
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StevieLuv
Helpful Member
Conservative Treatment 3x. It really does work!
Posts: 1,335
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Post by StevieLuv on Nov 20, 2013 12:08:09 GMT -7
That is a wonderful update! You have been doing an excellent job managing Busters' condition
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PaulaM
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Post by PaulaM on Nov 27, 2013 7:51:31 GMT -7
Good morning Susie, I saw your post on DL Facebook. We'd love to hear more about how Buster is doing… is he still on medications? Is his pain gone or in control with meds? Let us know how crate rest is going, we have ideas for being rambunctious such as jumping against the sides of the crate, moving too much, etc. just let us know specifically what Buster is doing. The crate and limited movement to the spine is what allows the disc to heal properly… it is the most critical part of conservative treatment.
Laser light and/or acupuncture can be started right away as those therapies are known to be helpful in kickstarting the nerves to self heal. Chiro is risky to the weak scar tissue forming on the exterior of the disc…adjustments are well known to simply be too much pressure causing the weak scar tissue to be torn again.
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Post by mismaxcod on Dec 1, 2013 7:54:31 GMT -7
We are almost at 4 weeks. He is still improving daily. Crate rest, baby pack and play rest, and getting a baby gate ended up hurting him more than helping. Every time i penned him up he hurt himself trying to get out. So he has been on his floor bed or my bed. No meds of any kind now, and i'm moving from chiropractic care to laser this week we think. I think the chiro dr has down awesome, I just think its time to get the laser involved. He has muscle tone back now in his legs down to his knee area. (thats what i call it) He knee to his actual foot isn't responding as well as everything else is. I had tried the sling a couple weeks ago and he just couldn't do it. I got a scarf out yesterday and cut a couple of smaller hoes in it for his legs and he LOVED it. he took 3 walks all the way around the yard throughout the day. He was soooooo excited!!! He felt and looked like his old self. I do think by the Dec 31st deadline someone gave me that he will be back to normal without the scarfs to hold him up. He does try to move the legs when he is in that.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
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Post by PaulaM on Dec 1, 2013 9:32:05 GMT -7
Good news on being off all meds and no pain. That is a good accomplishment for one of the phases in healing.
Susie, graduation day of December 31 is the amount of time it takes the disc to heal. The only way the disc heals is with little movement there are no medications or therapies to help a disc heal. Only a very, very, fewest of footsteps at potty time and time. In other words doing everything possible to keep the vertebrae in the back and neck from moving. Moving vertebrae place pressure on discs. Healthy discs have no problem with pressure they just bounce back into shape…that is their job to cushion the vertebrae.
A damaged disc just can't take pressure right now. The weak scar tissue will re-tear. On Dec 31, the scar tissue formed will be much stronger…and then getting back to normal activities, going on walks in the yard will be safe.
Knuckling the paw is nerve damage that happened when the pressured disc bulged out of shape and pressed on the spinal cord. Knuckling is a relatively mild nerve damage. Limiting movement until Dec 31 is to avoid a severe nerve damage…that is paralysis of the legs and loss of bladder control that have the potential to be permanent. No one wishes a dog to be paralyzed….so we do all we can to limit movement of the back so the disc can heal.
On Dec 31, when physical activity is safe to resume….you will see that any muscle atrophy will turn around quickly as muscle will easily bulk up again.
If too much movement is allowed and the disc retears, crate rest will need to start from the beginning…another 8 weeks to allow a new disc tear to heal.
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Post by mismaxcod on Dec 2, 2013 4:12:04 GMT -7
oh goodness, ok i will keep him settled down. I do have a small backyard, and he only went out to do his business. Prolly like 3-4 times a day, but he did more sniffing before getting the job done. The sling helps me keep him at a more level state and definitely helps my back. I was almost down as bad as him. I just about used all my sick time and vacation days last month so i do not want any kind of a set back with him. Thank you again for helping with mine and Busters needs.
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Post by mismaxcod on Dec 15, 2013 7:32:32 GMT -7
I am so excited, Buster is taking steps on his own. We have hardwood floors so ive put strips of rugs for him to walk on where he won't slip and hurt himself. Still taking him outside with a sling and keeping him quiet as possible. My husband and I were talking last night remembering that first night when we got him home from the vet, and i went through 17 towels and 2 sets of sheets and 2 comforters trying to keep he and i dry, also the rash that came from the diapers and pads i used while i was working. He has came such a long way. There was several days that i didn't know if i was doing the right thing and was it all going to end like Maxwell and us have to let him go. I think we are going to go to a couple of laser visits over the holidays. He still is walking funky but he was so happy to be doing it by himself. I will try to upload a video this afternoon.Just had to share the good news.
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Marjorie
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Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
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Post by Marjorie on Dec 15, 2013 9:13:53 GMT -7
That certainly is wonderful news, Susie! I'm very happy for Buster and for you.
While putting strips of rug over your hardwood floor is a very good thing to do AFTER the 8 weeks of crate rest, there should be no walking for Buster inside the house at all until December 31st. The only steps he should be taking is during potty time and then only as few as possible to do his business. He should be lifted out of his recovery suite, carried out to do his business and then carried right back to his crate.
He's come a very long way and I know you don't want a set back to happen. The disc needs the rest of the 8 weeks of crate rest to heal. Not enough scar tissue has formed yet to protect the disc from rupturing or tearing again.
Only a little more than 2 weeks left and you'll be able to start his gradual re-introduction to more movement.
Blessings to you both.
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Post by mismaxcod on Dec 15, 2013 11:12:07 GMT -7
ok well i will take those up then i don't want a chance for him to have a setback.
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Post by Bodydenny&Buddy on Dec 15, 2013 12:39:26 GMT -7
What Marjorie said. Great news , but stay the course!!!!!!!!!
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Post by mismaxcod on Dec 31, 2013 6:39:32 GMT -7
Just had to share, today is our final kennel day. I never thought i would see this day,,,,, but Buster is walking on his own again!!!!!!!!!!!! There were days i was ready to give up, and days i really thought he would never walk again. Even looked into the wheelchair. Thank you for all your support and encouragement. I uploaded a video of him on your Facebook page. Thanks again!!!!!!!
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Marjorie
Moderator~
Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
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Post by Marjorie on Dec 31, 2013 7:54:38 GMT -7
Congratulations to you for staying the complete course, Susie! Completing the full 8 weeks was exactly what Buster needed. I'm so happy for him and for you. Take it slow for the next few weeks. Buster's stamina and muscles will need to be gradually built up again. Here is a suggested schedule for re-introduction into movement: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/AfterCrateRest.htmAll the best to you.
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Post by Jean & Mimi on Dec 31, 2013 7:58:19 GMT -7
CONGRATULATIONS!!!! lots of hugs and kisses to you and your sweet Buster
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