Deborah & Angel
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Post by Deborah & Angel on Mar 19, 2013 12:34:28 GMT -7
Hello, I'm a Newbie...My Doxie woke me this am, I knew something was wrong when I put her on the floor and she just stood there. It was 6 am, and I was FRANTIC. I called our vet at 8 am and was in the office by 8:50. An xray shows some thinning of the disc where the rib cage meets the spine. (In that area) Since she had thrown up last night, she wasn't given any anti-inflammatory yet, but was given Pepcid and Cerenia, and needs to go back in 3 days. I do have Tramadol here and was instructed to give it to her 3 times a day as needed. I was also instructed to give her a bland diet of rice and chicken for the next 3 days. When we go back, we will no doubt get a anti-inflammatory. I am just SICK over this.
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PaulaM
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Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
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Post by PaulaM on Mar 19, 2013 15:52:29 GMT -7
Welcome, djaustin! My name is Paula what is yours? What is your doxie's name? I know how hard this is. A lot of it is the fear of the unknown. You can help both yourself and your girl by getting up to speed to understand the IVDD enemy and be in a position to fight and win. It is all here for the time you can invest... Disc Disease 101: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingpage.htmCan you fill us in on a few details so we can be of better support: -- are you doing 100% STRICT crate rest 24/7 only out to potty -- No laps, no couch, no sleeping in bed with you, no meandering, scooting or dragging around during potty times. No baths, no chiro (aka VOM)? -- Is there still currently pain - shivering, trembling, yelping when picked up or moved, reluctant/slow to move head or body, tight hard tummy? -- What are the exact names of meds currently given, their doses in mgs and frequencies? -- Currently can your dog wobbly walk? move the legs at all? or wag the tail when you do some happy talk? -- Do you find wet bedding or leaks on you when lifted up? -- Eating and drinking OK? -- Poops OK - normal color no dark or bright red blood? -- Why did the vet say the underlying reason for throwing up was last night? Did the vet run a blood panel to verify her organs are healthy to start pred? We look forward to learning more about your girl with your answers. |
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Deborah & Angel
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Post by Deborah & Angel on Mar 20, 2013 12:26:11 GMT -7
HI Paula, My name is Debbie. Sorry this took so long, I'm not very good at this computer thing and I couldn't figure out the forum thing either. My Doxie's name is Angel, she'll be 5 on May 20th. All I've been doing is research on IVDD since yesterday, so much to learn. We were not prepared for Strict crate rest yesterday, we will have everything ready today, although I did my best with what I had, (the LR floor is not too comfy as is). Our "crate" will be one of the open top kennel type things, I've seen in a lot of your informational pages. Everything else I have followed Strictly. I believe she is still in pain, although not severe. She woke me this am whimpering, she was shivering, trembling, we went directly outside to potty since I had her in my arms and am afraid to handle her any more than I have to and she h adn't gone potty since 11 pm last night. She did pee. She also makes a low grunting sound when I pick her up (sign of pain?), other than that, no other signs of pain. The only med given at this time is Tramadol, I'm up in the air as to whether to give the Pepcid 10mg 1/2 tab once daily and Cerenia 0.5 tab daily, Since I believe the reason she threw up was because she made a little piggie of herself and ate her "treat" to fast on Monday, (the day before the vet visit). Her Tramadol dose is 50mg tab,give 1/4 to 1/2 tab up to every 8 hours, but I'm trying to cut the 1/4 tabs in half and she's doing well with that.
She can walk, and wags her tail, but when she walks she doesn't hold her tail up, this just breaks my heart. I'm trying my best not to let this show.. She's my baby
No wetting, or wet spots, I am blessed, she's so good, I ask if she needs me to take her potty, and I know by the way she reacts if she has to go or not. She's eating and drinking well, and going potty well, am concerned about constipation, but I read about Pumpkin, so I need to pick up some of that, just hope she eats it, she does like veges though, so I think we'll be ok there.
The vet did do blood work, and she just called to check on Angel, so Friday when we go in, we''ll talk about a Med Treatment Plan. I'm just so scared. I've spoiled both my Doxies, and neither have spent a day in a crate, this will be a challenge. I slept on the living room floor with her last night, Why you ask??? Well...you guessed it... They have always slept in the bed with us...BAD ME..  |
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Post by natureluva on Mar 20, 2013 13:35:33 GMT -7
Hi, you can place your dog in a wire crate and place the crate next to you on your bed at night. Just make sure the crate cannot fall off the bed. If Angel is still in pain, ask the vet if you can give the Tramadol more often, or ask for a stronger pain reliever. Some vets will add an additional pain reliever such as methocarbamol (muscle relaxant) or gabapentin into the mix. Please do NOT let Angel walk around. Any sort of movement like that can cause a bulging disc to rupture. It is time and limited movement that heals the disc while the meds reduce swelling and pain. If this is a disc issue, you will want to ask your vet for an anti-inflammatory such as a steroid or NSAID. You will also need to give Pepcid to reduce the excess acid caused by the steroid or NSAID. We look forward to hearing your next update. Best wishes, ~Lisa
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Deborah & Angel
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Post by Deborah & Angel on Mar 20, 2013 15:41:34 GMT -7
Thank you so much Lisa, the Tramadol seems to be doing ok for her. We will talk to the Vet again Friday about the Meds she will be putting her on. She isn't walking, just long enough to go potty, and she usually squats as soon as she goes outside. Angel seems to be resting well, my only concern right now, is if I should get up to give her her pain med. She woke up whimpering this am? I've printed out a lot of info, got a Meds sheet and my questions ready. I just hope I can understand everything she tells me. She'll no doubt have to write everything down for me.. |
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Post by natureluva on Mar 21, 2013 6:55:42 GMT -7
Hi Debbie, how is Angel's tummy doing? Any more vomiting or diarrhea?
I would definitely ask the vet for a steroid to control the inflammation on the spinal cord from the injured disc. It is this pressure on the spinal cord that is causing the worsening neurological symptoms in Angel. The job of meds is to control pain and inflammation while the 8 weeks of strict crate rest (limiting movement of the spine) heals the disc. Be sure to carefully carry Angel to and from the potty spot like so:
Please let us know how the vet appointment goes! Best of luck, ~Lisa
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Deborah & Angel
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No current back issues... Living Life.. <3
Posts: 294
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Post by Deborah & Angel on Mar 22, 2013 14:32:29 GMT -7
Angel's follow-up appt went well, the Dr. added Carprofen 0.25 caplet twice a day to her meds. Strict rest for 10 more days and go back on April 4th. Does this sound right?
I forgot to mention she said to continue the Tramadol, also the Pepsid.
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PaulaM
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Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,598
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Post by PaulaM on Mar 22, 2013 18:19:55 GMT -7
How's Angel feeling... her perky self again or are there signs of pain - shivering, trembling, yelping when picked up or moved, reluctant/slow to move head or body, tight hard tummy, holding leg flamingo style not wanting to bear weight? Any signs of pain nearing he next dose of Tramadol? What dose in mg are you now giving her?
Often it takes being at the anti-inflamamtory dose for 1-2 weeks or even for some dogs more like a month before all the swelling is gone. On the stop of Carprofen is the time to assess just how well reduction of swelling is going by observing for pain. Swelling = pain = more time needed on Carprofen.
Angel's graduation date will be on May 14. Until then 100% STRICT crate rest 24/7 only out at potty times for 8 weeks is the way the disc itself heals.
How are her neuro functions... can she walk, wobbly walk, move her legs at all?
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Deborah & Angel
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No current back issues... Living Life.. <3
Posts: 294
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Post by Deborah & Angel on Mar 23, 2013 6:25:52 GMT -7
Thank you Paula, the only time she appears to be in pain is after a long nights rest. In the am, she will be trembling, other than that, there are no signs. She's on the same dose of Tramadol, Tramadol dose is 50mg tab,give 1/4 to 1/2 tab up to every 8 hours, I'm giving 1/4 tab. Her neuro functions are fine, the Dr. had me put her on the floor so she could watch her walk, and her feet spring right back when she turned them over, if you know what I'm talking about. So, do I continue with the Pepsid once a day? I thought when she said 10 days of rest that was wrong, even told the Hubster on the way home, we are following Dodgerslist instructions as far as rest for healing. Thank you so much for your support. I am still very worried. I am having some trouble getting her to take her meds, even crushing and putting in food isn't working. Can they be given together? The Tramadol and Carprofen? trying to stuff in into a piece of cheese but I think she's onto me..
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Post by Nancy & Polly on Mar 23, 2013 10:09:12 GMT -7
Try my trick for giving meds. Wrap the pill in a small piece of thin sliced sandwich meat. Tear off another small piece of meat for your other hand. Offer the dog the piece with the pill in it, holding the other piece right behind where they can see it. They will be so focused on getting that second piece that the first one will be gulped right down without time to chew it and spit out the pill. It works especially well if there is another dog nearby. They don't want to risk the other dog getting the meat, so they'll gulp it right down.
Works for me!
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PaulaM
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Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
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Post by PaulaM on Mar 23, 2013 10:20:21 GMT -7
Sounds like the Tramadol is wearing of by morning and she is in pain. I would give Tramadol as late at night as possible 11pm if you can. Do not be stingy on pain meds... you may need to be giving 1/2 tab rather than 1/4 tab of Tramadol especially at night. Then set alarm for 6 am to give next tramadol dose before breakfast or potty time. Give Tramadol 30-60 mins to get her pain back in control before caring for her. Discuss with the vet the signs of pain you are seeing and possibly getting methocarbamol on board. Every dog is individual in working out the right pain meds and schedule. Providing your vet with feedback and with teamwork you both will get pain relief just right for Angel.
We follow the vets who are prescribing 2x a day Pepcid... that is 5mg Pepcid AC every 12 hours. Give Pepcid AC 30 mins before the Carprofen and there after every 12 hours if you also are wanting to give it 2x a day at the 5mg dose. Carprofen, a NSAID, can be given together with Tramadol. I would avoid crushing tramadol... it is extremely bitter. Any tramadol dust on your fingers can transfer to the cheese and turn her off.
Try the three treat method of dosing. Offer one plain treat with the second containing the pill in her sight. Hopefully she will be greedy to gobble the first and find no pill and then go for the 2nd with the pill. The third plain treat should be in eye sight so she'll be focused on getting another great treat and gulp the pill treat down.
Hide pills in a piece of banana. They stick well there and will not slide out. Wrap a small piece of delli meat around the banana treat for further enticement if needed.
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Deborah & Angel
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No current back issues... Living Life.. <3
Posts: 294
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Post by Deborah & Angel on Mar 25, 2013 9:52:29 GMT -7
Sorry about the delay, we've had a set back and I have just been beside myself. We had gone to the store, and thinking Angel was secure in her "pen", when we got back, she was out, and had obviously been jumping and was in some discomfort. Not to the point that in involve a visit to the Vet, but I am just a basket case and really don't know what to do. I have decided to NEVER leave her alone again, if anything would happen, I could never forgive myself. Anyways, it was 1 step backwards. All is back to normal, and she doesn't appear to be in much pain. The Hubster got her up this am, so I'm not sure about her pain level. I would like to think he is being honest with me, (he doesn't like seeing her medicated, as much as I try telling him, it's for her own good), but I did follow your recommendation and gave her half Tramadol instead of the 1/4 last night. So my question is...Do I give her pain meds if she isn't showing signs of pain? Also, I am REALLY having a hard time getting her to take the meds as I've said before, she's a smart cookie, and is now analizing ANYTHING I give her, she is also a picky eater, she doesn't like bananas. I've also increased her Pepcid to twice a day, not wanting any stomach issues to pop up, we've got enough to deal with.
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PaulaM
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Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,598
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Post by PaulaM on Mar 25, 2013 11:19:50 GMT -7
Debbie, it is important to consistantly give the pain meds and on time. Once pain surfaces it is much harder to get back under control. Disc episodes HURT alot. You do Angel no favor by being stingy with pain meds. If Hubster felt the pain Angel is having to suffer with he'd DEMAND pain meds. So give pain meds at the max prescribed dose and every 8 hours as prescribed. At the time swelling is assumed to be gone, then your vet will call for a stop of carprofen, the med that deals with swelling, to assess pain. Swelling in the spinal cord is what is causing the pain for Angel.
What kind of recovery suite are you using (wire crate, ex-pen or ?) She was prescribed 5mg of Pepcid per day. So are you splitting the Pepcid down to get 2.5mg and giving it 2x a day? How much does Angel weigh?
I do not like your report she "does not seem to be in much pain" Angel should not be in ANY pain. Report your observation of pain and that she escaped via a phone call to the vet. See if getting methocarbamol on board will help with the pain stemming from muscle spasms that goes with a disc episode.
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Deborah & Angel
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Posts: 294
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Post by Deborah & Angel on Mar 25, 2013 11:46:57 GMT -7
She weighs 9# and was prescribed 10mg 1/2 tab once daily. I am giving the pain meds regularly, as I cannot trust the hubster to be honest with me. The "crate" we have is like a corral, I'm not sure what it's called, might be the ex-pen you talk about. Has no bottom, just sides to it.
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Post by Pauliana on Mar 25, 2013 12:45:43 GMT -7
Debbie, Remember that dogs tend to be stoic, meaning they won't show they are in pain until it's really terrible. They don't want you to worry, so they hide it.. Paula is so right about disc episodes being extremely painful and the vet can change up her meds until her pain is totally under control. She can't heal until the pain is relieved. You might try putting her in a wire crate/kennel they have a top and she wouldn't be able to jump out of that and put it in the room where you spend the most time, so she won't feel isolated.. You can also carefully move it to other areas in your home so she can have a change of scenery to ease boredom. Here is a link showing how it should be set up.. www.dodgerslist.com/literature/CrateRRP.htmBest wishes for Angel and for you.. Pauliana |
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Deborah & Angel
Helpful Member
No current back issues... Living Life.. <3
Posts: 294
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Post by Deborah & Angel on Mar 25, 2013 13:05:15 GMT -7
Thank you Pauliana, I'm doing my best as I've been a BAD Mom and my FurBabies have NEVER been in a crate, they are both spoiled and I am feeling very guilty right now. So is the dose for the Pepcid ok? Can she have 10 mg twica a day, or should it be half that at her weigh of 9#?
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Post by Linda Stowe on Mar 25, 2013 13:57:22 GMT -7
Hi Debbie, actually the dosage would be .5 mg twice a day for her weight.
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Deborah & Angel
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Post by Deborah & Angel on Mar 25, 2013 14:43:05 GMT -7
Thank you Linda.
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Deborah & Angel
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No current back issues... Living Life.. <3
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Post by Deborah & Angel on Mar 26, 2013 10:49:37 GMT -7
We are having a GREAT day. Angel does NOT appear to be in any pain, she is showing NO signs today. Still following STRICT crate rest and still concerned about her future, but my heart has lifted a bit. Continuing Meds a described earlier. My question today is Do you recommend Laser, or Holistic therapy, not seeing anyone in my area that does Acupuncture? Is Laser effective by itself or best combined with Acupuncture? Trying to figure out this all out, and what would be the best plan of action for Angel. Would this even help her now? Should we have done this a week ago? I get so confused when I read a lot of info at a time. Please be patient with me. Also, she will run out of before Carprofen before her Drs. appt, is that ok, or should I let the Dr. know. This happened because I had to change the appt date.
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PaulaM
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Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
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Post by PaulaM on Mar 26, 2013 11:46:57 GMT -7
Debbie, excellent that pain is fully under control!
Laser therapy would be used to help control pain. It is also beneficial to stimulate nerves to regenerate. For severe cases both acupucture and Laser are use together. So if Angel can walk and does not have any neuro function loss, then you may not need these therapies.
When Caprofen runs out (what date?) and there is pain surfacing to show not all the swelling was dealt with, the you need to have a plan on hand. If the stop happens on Sunday, you don't want Angel in pain and a trip to ER needed. I would discus with the vet a plan. Perhaps the plan would be to stop a few days before you run out of Carprofen. Or maybe you buy a few more pills should you need to restart. It is always good to have a plan B you and your vet have come to. Make a phone call to the vet and put your mind at ease by knowing all our options.
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Deborah & Angel
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Post by Deborah & Angel on Mar 26, 2013 12:35:45 GMT -7
Thank you Paula for all your help and patience. She will finish the Caprofen on Easter Sunday, and now that I think about it, I had throw a couple doses away, due to them being put in food and her refusing to eat it, so I will call the Vet and let her know this. The pros and cons over supplements can you tell me your honest opinion?
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PaulaM
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Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,598
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Post by PaulaM on Mar 26, 2013 13:13:27 GMT -7
Dodgerlist's honest opinion after much research and consultation on many supplements is contained in this article from our Disc Disease 101 resources: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/Supplements.htmLet us know what you and your vet have come up with for a plan. We are keeping our fingers crossed for a pain free stop of the Carprofen and tramadol this Sunday. Then all that would need to be done is to finish out the rest of the 8 weeks to let the disc heal til graduation day: May 14. |
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Deborah & Angel
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No current back issues... Living Life.. <3
Posts: 294
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Post by Deborah & Angel on Apr 1, 2013 8:13:59 GMT -7
Angel is not walking well as of 3/30/13. It was Saturday after hours of course. She does not seem to be in any pain. All meds continued as instructed, Drs. appt made for 3 pm today. One scared and sad Mama here.. |
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PaulaM
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Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,598
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Post by PaulaM on Apr 1, 2013 8:59:30 GMT -7
Debbie, I am sorry to hear about Angel's leg function. Can you be more specific.
Do her paws now knuckle?
Is she more wobbly than previous days.
Have you been conscientious in doing 100% STRICT crate rest 24/7 only out to potty …. no laps, no couch, no sleeping in bed with you, no meandering around during potty times. No baths, no chiro (aka VOM). In other words do everything you can to limit the vertebrae in the back from moving and putting pressure on the bad disc.
As a disc does more damage to the spinal cord, there is a predictable stepwise deterioration of functions. When nerve healing begins, often it follows the reverse order.
1. Pain caused by the tearing disc & inflammation in the spinal cord
2. Wobbly walking, legs cross
3. Nails scuffing floor
4. Paws knuckle
5. Legs do not work (paralysis, dog is down)
6. Bladder control is lost
7. Tail wagging with joy is lost
8. Deep pain sensation, the last neuro function, a critical indicator for successful surgery. Surgery can still be successful in the window of 12/24 hours after loss of deep pain sensation. Even after that window of time, there can still be a good outcome. Each hour that passes decreases that chance. Precious hours can be lost with a vet that gets DPS wrong. So if surgery is an option get to a neuro or ortho asap.
If a vet deems this an emergency to try and save neuro functions from worsening, there may be a hard decision to make a switch from the NSAID class of anti-inflammatories over to the most powerful of anti-inflamamtories... the steroids. Normally 4-7 days is needed to wash out a NSAID before the start of a steroid. In that case the stomach would need double protection... not just Pepcid AC but also sucralfate. As always we must do our homework to be able to discuss these things with our vets.
<http://www.marvistavet.com/html/pharmacy_center.html> [meds directory]
Let us know what the vet says with this afternoon's appt.
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Deborah & Angel
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No current back issues... Living Life.. <3
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Post by Deborah & Angel on Apr 1, 2013 9:11:18 GMT -7
Her legs cross and she just sits down, more wobbly, looks drunk when trying to walk, She is going to the Bathroom ok, but NOT as frequent... also STRICT crate rest, but we do have visitors, so a lot of people coming and going due too the holidays and she isn't resting as well as she would if we were alone here. I am scared and don't know what to expect and hoping I can make the right decision.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,598
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Post by PaulaM on Apr 1, 2013 9:49:37 GMT -7
One of reasons to consider surgery is IF you have been doing STRICT rest and neuro functions are diminishing. Your vet may be of the mind to see if switching to a steroid would help to relieve swelling better. If that is the case, then your decision would be to advocate for two stomach protectors. If you and your vet feel a consult with a specialist about surgery is a good idea then you will want to be ready. Look into Care Credit now just in case things go into crisis mode and surgery is needed. It is best to know all your options, financially and where surgery would be done, ahead of time rather than scrambling for that information in an emergency. No or low interest credit for veterinary costs can be obtained from Care Credit. You find out online if you qualify: www.carecredit.com/faqs.htmlYour vet will give you a referral to a board certified specialist. Board-certified neuros (ACVIM) and ortho (ACVS) surgical specialists can be found at University vet teaching hospitals. You can locate others in your area here: www.acvim.orgwww.acvs.org/AnimalOwners/DiplomateDirectory/ |
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Deborah & Angel
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Post by Deborah & Angel on Apr 1, 2013 9:57:33 GMT -7
I have already done the Care Credit....as soon as she got sick, am qualified for $3,000.00 Not sure if that will be enough, wish me luck, I am sooo scared, and NOT confident at all.
So if we do steroids...we need at LEAST 4 days to get NSAIDS out of her system, then add Sucralfate to the Pepcid for stomach protection, Correct?
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PaulaM
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Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,598
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Post by PaulaM on Apr 1, 2013 10:11:55 GMT -7
Under normal circumstances a 4-7 day washout is prudent and preferble to protect the stomach. When it is deemed an emergency, as usual the risk vs. the benefit of a treatment has to be carefully weighed. Sometimes the risk of not doing a washout is hopefully addressed by two stomach protectors in order to switch to a steroid.
What City/State do you live in? There are huge variations in surgical costs across the USA.
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Deborah & Angel
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Post by Deborah & Angel on Apr 1, 2013 10:31:59 GMT -7
I'm in Washington, Pa...So you're saying the "wash-out, may not be a good idea in this case?
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PaulaM
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Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,598
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Post by PaulaM on Apr 1, 2013 11:34:06 GMT -7
I'm saying you need to be aware of all the options with meds, with surgery, with conservative treatment what the risks are for each and then you and your vet make decisions together. I'm not a vet and am not there to do a hands on exam to see exactly what is going on. Knowledge is power with this disease.
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