StevieLuv
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Post by StevieLuv on Nov 21, 2013 19:44:50 GMT -7
Here is how nerves typically heal... in the reverse order of the damage to the spinal cord: 1. Deep Pain Sensation (Only correctly identified by a specialist.) 2. Tail wagging with joy at seeing you or getting a treat or meal. 3. Bladder and bowel control verified with the "sniff and pee" test. 4. Leg Movement, and then ability to move up into a standing position, and then wobbly walking. 5. Being able to walk with more steadiness and properly place the feet. 6. Ability to walk unassisted and perhaps even run I know that you have seen this list before, just wanted to let you know that our Stevie had bladder and bowel control well before voluntary tail wagging happened. The day she wagged her tail at me was a cause for celebration. She didn't try to stand until a few weeks after that (she was treated conservatively) but you get the picture - each dog is an individual
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Eric & Callie
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Post by Eric & Callie on Nov 21, 2013 20:15:52 GMT -7
Thank you for passing that along....hearing from someone that had a similar pattern gives us optimism. I bet you were ecstatic when that tail wag came back! I'm happy things went well for Stevie and you.
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Eric & Callie
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Post by Eric & Callie on Nov 24, 2013 11:02:14 GMT -7
4 Weeks After Surgery
I was reading Dr. Isaacs comments on his frequently asked questions page regarding the purchasing of wheelchairs. Callie has regained bladder control but still has no voluntary movement. I am wondering if we should proceed with ordering a wheelchair or since she has made progress with bladder control, more time would be warranted before investing in a wheelchair?
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Marjorie
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Post by Marjorie on Nov 24, 2013 18:29:57 GMT -7
The return of bladder control is a very good sign that the nerves are healing. It's still early to order a cart. Have you thought about trying some acupuncture or laser light treatments? They can be very helpful in regenerating nerves. www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingacupuncture.htmAlso water therapy can be performed after the stitches/sutures are removed. Some of these exercises can be done right in the bathtub. Hydrotherapy can help get those legs moving, too. www.dodgerslist.com/literature/watertherapy.htm
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Eric & Callie
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Post by Eric & Callie on Nov 27, 2013 16:04:55 GMT -7
Thanks for the suggestions Marjorie. Our problem is that we are about 2 1/2 hours away from the closest physical therapist office. The other thing is that we have not heard from the surgeon since we decided not to follow his suggestion to repeat the myelogram. He didn't tell us if physical therapy should begin at this point. We are considering having a neurosurgeon evaluate Callie to get their opinion but won't be able to do this for another couple of weeks.
Callie's situation is about the same....good bladder control. We are a little confused about knowing whether there has been any motor improvement. When we begin to raise her with the sling, we think she is pushing up a little with her hind legs. She is also able to support her weight, although wobbly for a few seconds. We also have noticed a lot more tail movement when we rub/stretch her legs. While laying prone she also will occasionally move her tail from an upward position to a lower position. Were just not sure if any of that is controlled movement or just reflexes and if it is just reflexes, is that considered improvement. Other than that, those things are the only changes we have noticed within the past couple of days concerning movement.
Given the above, is there any suggestions on whether we should just continue with what we are going for the next couple of weeks or should we consider putting her in the bathtub at home to begin the water therapy?
Thank you for your time and Happy Thanksgiving.
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Post by Pauliana on Nov 27, 2013 21:48:41 GMT -7
Hi Eric,
It would be a good idea to ask your Vet who he would recommend for PT and water therapy so you could get at least one lesson and tips on how to do water therapy for Callie in your bathtub..Hopefully there is one closer to home that they know of.
Glad she is improving.. It sounds to me like she is getting more feeling back, from how she is reacting when you rub and stretch her legs..
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Eric & Callie
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Post by Eric & Callie on Nov 29, 2013 7:41:37 GMT -7
Hi Pauliana,
We did speak to the surgeon a few weeks ago regarding the PT and unfortunately that is the closest place. We're a little isolated here in Murray, Kentucky.
I think that is a good idea for us to pay at least one visit down there to pick up some tips from the therapist. We will probably take her down there in another couple of weeks which will be right around 6 weeks after surgery.
Thanks again for the information.
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Eric & Callie
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Post by Eric & Callie on Dec 2, 2013 22:00:04 GMT -7
We're a little concerned tonight. We noticed during the sling bathroom break that Callie wasn't moving as quickly as she has been. She peed and used her rear legs to push herself up, took a few steps, and then turned her head towards her rear almost in a half circle. Her head seemed to be a little lower than normal and her mid back seemed a little more arched than normal. She was able to sling walk back in on her own, drank some water, and ate a cookie. No crying or other noticeable pain. She still has DPS.
The past day has been the first time she has been holding all of her body weight on her legs for more than a few seconds, so it may be related to some discomfort in the hips but of course we are nervous that she may have something going on with another disc.
We are kind of worried. Any thoughts or advice?
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Marjorie
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Post by Marjorie on Dec 3, 2013 8:52:34 GMT -7
That's good news that Callie was able to hold her body weight on her legs for more than a few seconds. Sometimes the improvements we see can be very gradual, such as this one, but an improvement it still is. And she used her rear legs to push herself up, which you weren't sure she was able to do last week. That's a good improvement.
Is it very cold where you live, Eric? Sometimes the cold weather can affect our IVDD dogs and make them a bit slower. How is she doing today? Is she still holding her head low or does she seem to have a stiff neck? Any trouble turning or lifting her head?
Let us know how she is today.
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Eric & Callie
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Post by Eric & Callie on Dec 3, 2013 11:44:06 GMT -7
Hi Marjorie,
Actually the weather here has been warmer than it has been.....but the cold will be here on Thursday.
No sign of any weird position sling walks today. Callie seems to continue feeling comfortable. She held her weight even better today. I noticed she starts to drift to the side but if I place a hand on the outside of her leg that stops the drifting and she is able to stand.
When my wife got home today, she urinated a little in her crate, almost was like an excited response. We took her outside right after and she squatted and peed quite a bit more. Kind of weird since she hasn't peed in her crate in a long while. We also noticed more tail movements, some without any stimulation and also some when we are massaging/stretching, but still no wagging.
Anyway, thankfully it appears that our last night fears about an injury were just an overreaction. My wife and I joked that this whole thing has taken at least a year off of our lives. We ordered a float coat and will try to schedule a visit for physical therapy or try it in our tub.
Is there anything else we should be doing at this point? Thanks so much Marjorie for following us during this whole thing.
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Marjorie
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Post by Marjorie on Dec 3, 2013 15:31:22 GMT -7
Wonderful - I'm very glad to hear that she's feeling comfortable. Yes, the worry for our dogs can most definitely take years off of our lives!! I'm hoping to hear about a big tail wag soon from this girl. That tail really sounds like it wants to start wagging! I think you're doing all that you can at this point, Eric. Let us know how the water therapy goes. Be sure to use a rubber mat so Callie doesn't slip.
All the best to you.
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Eric & Callie
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Post by Eric & Callie on Dec 3, 2013 18:31:31 GMT -7
Even a small thing like her carrying her weight was exciting for us. She even stood longer tonight. Now if we can get her to know where her legs are and a little tail wag, that would be the best!
Her range of motion exercises seemed to bother her a little tonight. She always kind of just laid there and seemed to enjoy the stretching and massage but tonight she raised her head looking at me like, hey I'd rather you quit that and rub my stomach or scratch my head. Do you think we should cut back on the PT or is this reaction expected?
We got the rubber mat and are looking forward to starting the tub therapy in a couple of weeks.
Thanks again Marjorie for your words and guidance.
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Eric & Callie
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Post by Eric & Callie on Dec 5, 2013 19:10:15 GMT -7
Just a quick update to share on Callie. Our girl finally had some movement! My daughter came home yesterday morning, she got excited and raised her tail straight up in the air, moved it a little. What a relief it was to see that. She's had a few small wags sent then but it was great to see. No recognition of where her feet are yet, but she continues to carry her weight while standing in place for longer periods of time. We took a urine sample into the vet today for a re-check and her UTI is back and crystals in the urine....this time a 14 day course of antibiotics and a product called methigel to increase the acidity in the bladder. The vet said that when she began to get her bladder function back she might not have been expressing all of the urine. Anyway, we'll finish the antibiotics and do a re-check. If the infection is still there, they will send a sample to be cultured. The good news thankfully was that the crystals weren't the type that causes stones, which is a major concern since Callie has had surgery for stones a couple of years ago. It was great to see her motor skill progress. It is easier to have patience now that we know the motor nerve connections are still there. Now if we can survive this ice storm that is coming we'll be in good shape.
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Post by Pauliana on Dec 5, 2013 21:03:01 GMT -7
Hi Eric, Wonderful news on the tail wag!!! Standing longer and carrying her weight and the tail wags are all proof that her nerves are connecting and she is well on the way to a wonderful recovery. I am so excited for her and for you!! Sorry to hear her UTI is back and hope that the antibiotic works to clear it up.. You take such excellent care of Callie and it's great you were quick to deal with it from past experience with her bladder stones surgery. Take care and stay safe and warm in this icy winter storm..
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Marjorie
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Post by Marjorie on Dec 6, 2013 7:41:27 GMT -7
I'm doing a happy dance all over my desk about that tail wag, Eric!!
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StevieLuv
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Post by StevieLuv on Dec 6, 2013 17:32:01 GMT -7
Wonderful news about the tail wag - absolutely made my day!!
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Eric & Callie
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Post by Eric & Callie on Dec 7, 2013 19:36:53 GMT -7
Thank you all for your comments! It's been kind of rough around here the last couple of days. It's been hard to take Callie out with all the ice on the ground. The ice caused the cuts on the top of her rear paws to open up, so we had to put baby socks with rubber bands on. Despite the cold, she is still tries to raise up from a sitting position and holds her weight on her own when we position her. She still is not moving her paws, but we continue to see little tail movements occasionally when she gets excited. Tomorrow will be six weeks since her surgery. Since her recovery has been on the slow side, should we consider extending her crate rest for a little while longer? She is beginning to show interest in getting out of her crate especially when she hears something going on in another room but I'm not sure what she will do if we let her go. I guess she would drag herself to get somewhere but we're not sure if that is a great idea just yet. We hope everyone made it through the winter weather ok. Thanks again for all the well wishes.
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Post by Pauliana on Dec 7, 2013 22:03:18 GMT -7
Hi Eric, Here is a link that has information for after crate rest is over. As you scroll down you will see a section that has garments for dogs that scoot and boots to protect paws: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/AfterCrateRest.htmWhat I would do is let Callie out at times when you are there to observe how she is getting along, for short time periods at first and then put her back in the crate to rest up. Always crate her when you aren't home.. I feel for you and Callie dealing with all that slippery ice.. I am glad you were able to solve the problem by putting socks on her.. Hope her cuts on the top of her back paws are better, if not I would put EMT gel on them.. www.healthypets.com/emtgel.htmlWishing for Spring already.. : )
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Eric & Callie
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Post by Eric & Callie on Dec 11, 2013 19:13:38 GMT -7
Just a quick update on Callie. We're a little disappointed that her tail movements haven't been more frequent and haven't turned into a full wag yet. Looking at other posts it seems that when many dogs start with the tail moving, full wags are very close behind. She is continuing to hold her weight once we position her legs in a standing position but we haven't noticed any distinct paw movement. Could her bearing her weight just be muscles tightening up and not really represent any type of muscle or nerve control? With just tail movement and no forceful tail wagging, we are wondering if the standing in place isn't really true nerve improvement. We are going to try and schedule an appointment for PT next week and anxious to hear what their opinion is. Thank you for all the feedback.
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PaulaM
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Post by PaulaM on Dec 11, 2013 22:33:08 GMT -7
Congratulations on graduation!
Just being able to stand could be due to reflexes. Look for tail movements that have a head level involvement. Does she move her tail when she hears your happy talk or when she sees you approaching with a treat? If she can move her legs at all, the bouyancy of water (PT swimming or under water treadmill) are very helpful with initial weak leg movements. Let us know what the PT folks say.
1. Deep Pain Sensation (Only correctly identified by a specialist.) 2. Tail wagging with joy at seeing you or getting a treat or meal. 3. Bladder and bowel control verified with the "sniff and pee" test. 4. Leg Movement, and then ability to move up into a standing position, and then wobbly walking. 5. Being able to walk with more steadiness and properly place the feet. 6. Ability to walk unassisted and perhaps even run
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Marjorie
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Post by Marjorie on Dec 12, 2013 7:55:24 GMT -7
Congratulations!!
While just being able to stand could be due to reflexes, I believe you had said that Callie can also squat and raise herself up from a squat position, correct? That is definitely a good sign of nerve regeneration.
When my Jeremy first started to wag his tail, it was a very jerky movement - jerk, stop, jerk, stop to the right, then jerk, stop, jerk, stop, jerk to the left. It was like that for months but gradually evened out. As Paula said, if she's wagging her tail with happy talk or a treat, then the brain is connecting to the nerves to the tail and it's OK if it's not a full tag wag yet.
I'm hoping and praying for more leg movement once PT or water therapy is started that Callie will have more leg movement. Please let us know how it goes.
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Eric & Callie
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Post by Eric & Callie on Dec 12, 2013 11:37:07 GMT -7
When someone comes into see her, she will raise her tail 4 or 5 inches off the ground. The tail then usually will drop to a couple inches off the ground and then go to the left a couple of inches and then the other way a couple inches. The movement is pretty slow. The thing is, it really isn't consistent. She may do it once a day, or once every other day.
Yes, she squats to urinate and then also will push up when she is done. We just haven't seen any rear paw movement, even when she is laying prone, unless there is some type of stimulation.
We put a call into the surgeons office today for a referral to the dog rehab therapist. I'm interested to hear if he will give us a referral or if he will push to do another myelogram. We just are very nervous of her having another seizure.
We did speak to a neurologist by phone and ran her story by her. She said that with her deep pain sensation intact, she would have expected to see movement by now but with her showing small signs of improvement she might just be a slow healer. She also said that a mri could be done and that would avoid the contrast agent directly into the spine....big $$$$ I bet though. She said whether or not to have another imaging procedure done is a difficult call. On one hand, it could just take her more time but on the other, if there is a surgical remedy a delay could be a bad thing. She also did mention that some dogs get kick started by the under water treadmill and offered that as a potential option.
We'll wait to hear back from the surgeon. If he doesn't give us a referral I guess we will have to make a decision on what to do, maybe the PT will take a referral from our primary vet.
I know you thought it wasn't a good idea when the surgeon suggested a repeat myelogram, but another 3 weeks have gone by since then. Has your opinion changed at all?
Thank you all again for your time.
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PaulaM
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Post by PaulaM on Dec 12, 2013 19:46:11 GMT -7
I agree with the neuro, likely her self healing of nerves is a slow thing. Nerves ARE the slowest part of the body to heal and three weeks is a VERY short time in terms of nerve healing… We have seen dogs on this Forum healing still a year out. She is not in pain, she IS showing signs of nerves healing with tail movement, bladder control and pushing up afterwards which is way beyond deep pain sensation. Having patience is, indeed, difficult for humans. So with all that said, why in the world would you even consider a risky myelogram. MRI's are not only very expensive but also have risk. They require anesthesia where the core muscles that support the vertebrae are no longer in control.
I would spend my money on under water treadmill, acupuncture/laser light therapies if that is available.
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Marjorie
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Post by Marjorie on Dec 13, 2013 16:20:46 GMT -7
My opinion of three weeks ago hasn't changed, Eric. Though it's been very gradual, Callie has continued to show signs of improvement. She has no pain, which she would if there was still disc material pressing on her spine. That's why they had said they wanted to do an MRI, which is usually done right before surgery. Another surgery would not heal Callie's nerves. It would only take any pressure off the spine, which she shows no signs of having. And she certainly has shown no worsening of condition - just the opposite. Nerve healing can be very, very slow. And it's only been two months. I know it seems like a long time to you, but it isn't as far as nerve regeneration is concerned.
I agree with Paula. Water therapy and/or acupuncture/laser light treatments is the way to go at this point, if you can work that out. Or get the lesson on water therapy from the therapist and do some in your tub. Your primary vet should be able to give you a referral for PT.
Please keep us updated. Prayers for Callie continuing.
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Eric & Callie
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Post by Eric & Callie on Dec 13, 2013 17:19:24 GMT -7
I spoke with the surgeon today. He thought it would be a good idea to have a visit with the therapist and have her do the hydrotherapy. He thought with the benefit of being underwater that they could determine if her rear legs were showing any movement. He did say though, that if the therapist determined that there was no motor that he would still recommend further imaging.
Regarding Callie feeling pain.....she never exhibited any outwards signs of pain when this originally happened. Our girl must be pretty stoic. That concerns me a little bit, that she might be in fact feeling the pain as a result of a new compression. The tail movement is unmistakable but I'm beginning to wonder if we are mistaken that she is using her hind legs when we lift her in the sling.
We'll schedule the therapy hopefully for next week and hopefully they can detect some positive signs.
Good news today......Callie's urinalysis came back negative for bacteria and crystals.
Thank all of you for your feedback.
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PaulaM
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Post by PaulaM on Dec 14, 2013 9:31:10 GMT -7
If there is no purposeful motor movement of the legs AND there is no pain in evidence, that would show there is nothing pushing on the spinal cord to be painful. It would show more time is needed for nerves to heal..to self repair. Nerve healing just takes time….months even more like a year for some dogs.
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Eric & Callie
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Post by Eric & Callie on Dec 24, 2013 11:22:20 GMT -7
Just an eight week update on Callie.
,visited a different surgeon last week who examined Callie. We let him know that the surgeon who did her surgery recommended a repeat CT and myelogram. He said that even though she hadn't regained mobility she was showing gradual improvement and because of that he didn't think an additional procedure was warranted. He went on to say that the fact that she had DPS prior to surgery and still has it now that he believes she will continue to improve given time. He said that no one knows how much improvement she will have, but has seen some dogs take 6 months before they start walking....especially after reviewing Callie's records and seeing how severe her herniation was. So it appears that no myelogram/CT is in our future.
We had our first physical therapy session yesterday. The therapist did stretching exercises and taught us new therapies for home (stretching, massaging, tickling, applying hot and cold stimulus to her paws and wants her rear paws touching the ground (without socks on) anytime we walk her). He said her muscles were extremely tight and that the normal progression after surgery is first very little muscle resistance, then extremely tight, and then they gradually return to normal tone. He also gave her a cold laser treatment and took her into the underwater treadmill. Callie was freaked out over the whole experience, but did relatively well on the treadmill. We didn't see any movement in the rear legs which was a little disappointing. We will go back to therapy twice a week for the next few weeks and see if we notice any changes. We asked him about a cart. He works with Eddie's Wheels but said he would wait another 3 -4 weeks before going ahead with the cart. He actually thinks a cart is a helpful took in the rehab process but recommends waiting a little because of the expense.
Anyway, that's about it for the update. We're just glad to have Callie with us as she seems to be just about as happy as she used to be and we'll see what happens over the next couple of months. We hope everyone has a wonderful Christmas.
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Marjorie
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Post by Marjorie on Dec 25, 2013 6:04:38 GMT -7
I'm very glad that you've received confirmation from a surgeon that an additional procedure wasn't warranted and that Callie will improve given time. As you know, we totally agree with that. Don't be too discouraged about not seeing any movement in Callie's legs while on the underwater treadmill. Jeremy didn't either. Even after he had some movement in his legs, while on the treadmill, his hind legs just floated. And he did regain function and walked again. And I also agree about the cart. While some have found carts to be helpful in getting those legs to move, I had more success sling walking Jeremy. That seemed to be the best therapy for him. Here's our exercise page - you might want to run these by the therapist and/or surgeon, too, to see what they think. I found them to be very helpful for Jeremy. www.dodgerslist.com/literature/massagepassiveexercises.htmSure she's a happy girl! She has your love and a wonderful home and good food so she's a lucky girl. Please keep us updated and a Merry Christmas to you and Callie, too. Prayers for continued healing.
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Eric & Callie
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Post by Eric & Callie on Jan 18, 2014 9:06:21 GMT -7
Just an update on Callie 11 weeks after surgery. After 6 sessions of hydrotherapy and laser we haven't seen much progress with Callie. Maybe a little more tail wag movement and stronger reflexes but nothing major. Both the therapist and another neurologist are puzzled why she hasn't shown more improvement given the fact she never lost deep pain. They both said that they could understand the lack of progress if she had lost deep pain at some point but with deep pain intact before and after surgery they are shocked she has not recovered more. We just received an Eddies Wheels cart and the therapist is hoping that the cart use may stimulate her back legs. Callie remains pain free, happy, and full of energy but those darn back legs just aren't moving. Has anyone heard of a dog that did not lose deep pain sensation not regain use of their legs?
Thanks.
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PaulaM
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Post by PaulaM on Jan 19, 2014 13:39:27 GMT -7
The cart will be a great thing for Callie, now she can feel the wind as it flaps her ears on a a nice run. We have had dogs on this Forum with deep pain sensation taking months…. 11 months and even after a year regaining neuro functions. 11 weeks seems forever for you but not for nerve healing. Have patience and mean while just enjoy what is… a pain free and happy dog! Continue to do the range of motio's story : www.dodgerslist.com/monthstory/goosieSullivan.htm
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