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Post by jone2tone on Oct 20, 2013 16:53:20 GMT -7
This is my original Facebook post:
I need urgent help!
Our 11 year old doxie has been having a serious issue with his back - a disc herniation. This is the second time in about three years for him. The first time he got better just taking steroids orally. This time, unfortunately, it hit much harder. He had to stay with the vet, getting IV steroids, and being kept immobile. After about six days our vet felt he'd progressed enough to come home. He was able to walk, though still wobbly. After another two weeks, unfortunately his back legs gave out again. My wife immediately brought him back to the vet (this was this past Thursday), and since then he's again been immobilized and on IV steroids.
We've gone over the options the vet has given us: Surgery (we simply can't afford it, even after the Care Credit), continued steroids (which he even said seemed the worst option, as it's been ineffective to this point), or putting him down. The last option is absolutely the last thing we want to do, but my wife and I are very worried about his quality of life if we bring him home in this state - we both work full time, and we're afraid of making things worse for him (UTIs, Bladder infections) if we aren't here to care for him.
At this point, I'm reaching out to the Dachshund communities I follow here on facebook hoping someone can give me any practical advice from experience. If your doxie had the same issue, were you able to bring them back to health without the surgery? Are there alternatives you could recommend? Please, we want to bring our boy home - any info will help!
Thanks so much for any info you have!
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PaulaM
Moderator. 
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
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Post by PaulaM on Oct 20, 2013 17:24:28 GMT -7
Steve, welcome to Dodgerslist! First thing to know is that it IS in the cards for your doxie to get back to enjoying life after recovering. Some dogs do have mulitple disc episodes. What can make a great deal of difference is your own self education. Knowledge is the best defense in fighting and winning with this disease. Reading others posts on the forum can be of comfort. But the meat of what you need to know is on our main web page. A very quick way to get up to speed on meds, how healing happens and when for each of the phases is the "Overview: the essentials" yellow button. Then work your way through the rest of the orange and blue buttons to complete your education. Here's the link www.dodgerslist.com/healingindex.htm This Disc Disease DVD is a wonderful way to help other family members understand and even others who might be around or taking care of Brandee: www.dodgerslist.com/store/DVDorder.htmPutting a dog to sleep is not a treatment for disc disease. The two treatments are conservative treatment and surgery. The purposes of meds is not to bring back neuro functions. Steroids get swelling down in the spinal cord which causes pain and pain meds give immediate relief from pain as steroid could take 1-2 weeks or more like a month to resolve all inflammation in the spinal cord. From the get go of identifying a disc problem did you immediately crate 24/7 and carry him to and from the potty place? 100% STRICT crate rest is how the disc heals over a period of 8 weeks. Nerves heal all by themselves, it may take weeks, months or even closer to a year. Self education is critical to helping weed out misinformation ( not all vets will know this disease in depth), protect your dog and know how to give the right care. If you have not found our treasure trove of IVDD information, here is where you go: www.dodgerslist.com/literature.htm |
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Marjorie
Moderator~ 
Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,724 
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Post by Marjorie on Oct 20, 2013 17:27:55 GMT -7
Welcome to Dodgerslist. My name's Marjorie - what's yours? When did the second disc episode first take place? He was kept immobile at the vets for six days and given steroids and then returned home. When he came home, was he put on strict crate rest? What is the reason for him to be kept at the hospital? He should be at home where he can heal in comfort, given steroids to address the swelling in his back, pain meds to control his pain and Pepcid AC to protect his GI tract from the steroids. There is no reason for you to consider euthanasia. Your vet does not seem comfortable dealing with IVDD. My first suggestion to you is to find a vet who is knowledgeable about IVDD and bring your dog to him as soon as possible. Sometimes it takes 1-2 weeks and sometimes a month for steroids to bring the swelling down. Please take a look at this page for suggestions on how to find a knowledgeable vet, with a search engine to find one in your area: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/VetchkList.htm Or check out our forum for vet recommendations: dodgerslist.boards.net/board/10/guidelines-posting100% STRICT crate rest 24/7 only out to potty for a full 8 weeks is the SINGLE most important thing you can do to help your dog-- it is the hallmark component of conservative treatment. Carried in and out to potty. No laps, no couch, no sleeping in bed with you, no meandering, scooting or dragging around during potty times. No baths, no chiro (aka VOM). In other words do everything you can to limit the vertebrae in the back from moving and putting pressure on the bad disc. www.dodgerslist.com/literature/CrateRRP.htm Can you give us a bit more in essential information about your dog: -- What is your dog's name? -- Is there still currently pain? Signs of pain are holding the head in an unusual position, head held high or nose to the ground, shivering/trembling, not wanting to move much or moving gingerly, yelping, tight/tense stomach muscles, arched back, holding leg up flamingo style, not wanting to bear weight on the leg, just not their usual perky-interested-in-life self. -- Currently can your dog wobbly walk? move the legs at all? or wag the tail when you do some happy talk? -- Can your dog sniff and squat and then release urine or do you find wet bedding or leaks on you when lifted up? -- Eating and drinking OK? -- Poops OK - normal color, firmness, no dark or bright red blood? Dodgerslist website contains so much information that you need to read up on. Please go through the website and read, read, read so you can become knowledgeable about IVDD. Here are some links to get you started. Please click on all of them to get a good background of understanding. www.dodgerslist.com/healingindex.htmwww.dodgerslist.com/literature.htmPlease don't despair. IVDD is not a death sentence. Many dogs regain use of their legs and even if they don't, their lives can be happy ones. www.dodgerslist.com/index/SDUNCANquality.htmJust take this one day at a time. We're here to help you through this. Once you give us the additional information, we'll be able to help you better. Blessings to you. |
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Post by jone2tone on Oct 20, 2013 17:50:39 GMT -7
Hello Marjorie!
Chaz is the name of our 11 year old doxie. His first episode happened in April of 2009. He lost feeling in his back end and could not walk. He was given an MRI and diagnosed with a lower lumber herniation. We took him home and with oral steroids he got back to normal. Since then he's had a few flare ups, but nothing that immobilized him until a few weeks ago. We brought him to the vet and he stayed there, receiving IV prednisone and famotidine for four nights. He regained strength and was able to walk, stand, and go to the bathroom consciously. We brought him home and he continued to improve with oral steroids. He was not however on strict crate rest. We kept him crated during the day, carried him up and down the stairs and lifted him up and down off the couch. But he was running around. This Thursday I woke up and he couldn't walk again. He is ow back at the vet receiving IV steroids. He still can't walk of stand and does not have control of his bladder. The vet said he is happy , alert and eating, and not in pain. but he has not improved since Thursday. This is where we are now.
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Marjorie
Moderator~
Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,724
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Post by Marjorie on Oct 20, 2013 18:24:52 GMT -7
I'm sorry that you weren't given the correct information about crate rest. 100% strict crate rest 24/7 is essential to heal the disc. Movement can re-tear the disc, which is what appears to have happened, causing the loss of neuro function. The steroids work on bringing down the swelling in the back, which causes pain and nerve damage. The fact that Chaz is not in pain is very good. Your vet should try to taper the steroids to see if the pain returns. If there is no pain with a taper, then the steroids have done their job and can be stopped and strict crate rest continued. If there is still pain upon the taper, then more steroids need to be prescribed and this can be done at home. The 8 weeks of strict crate rest will allow scar tissue to form over the injured disc, thus healing the disc. You may not see an improvement in his neuro functions for weeks or months. Nerves can take a long time to heal. The fact that you haven't seen an improvement in his neuro functions does not mean that the nerves won't heal in time. At this point, you just want the disc to heal so there is no pain and so the injured disc isn't pressing into the spinal cord, causing nerve damage. This video will show you how a disc damages the spinal cord: Your vet will also need to give you a hands on your hands demonstration of expressing. You can learn how to do this! It might take a little practice at first. Here is some information on expressing: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/Expressing.htm I strongly urge you to learn all you can about IVDD by reading the links that Paula gave you above so you know when a vet has given you incorrect information. And please immediately look into finding a more knowledgeable vet. Having a vet that understands IVDD and knows how to treat it will make all the difference for Chaz. I know you're concerned about his quality of life. But he hasn't been given the proper chance to heal yet so you don't know what his neurological functions will be at the end of the 8 weeks of crate rest. He may recover enough to walk. Or he may not. Either way, he can have a good quality of life. Many people who work full time can care for a downed or incontinent dog. I express my Jeremy and it has become a routine part of our day. This all will get easier. Please let us know how your search for a more knowledgeable vet goes. |
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Post by jone2tone on Oct 23, 2013 4:49:30 GMT -7
Chaz came home yesterday. With all the encouraging information we found here, my wife and I feel like this is the best thing we can do for him - especially given there's at least a slight chance of recovery. Honestly, though, he's only 11. I'd rather we have a special needs Chaz than no Chaz at all. He's not showing any signs of pain, and he's doing well eating (and taking his meds). The only real challenge so far is that he's really not happy being in the cage when we're around. He seems to want to come out to snuggle. We've agreed to be strong, though - he needs to adapt (and so do we!).
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Post by Jean & Mimi on Oct 23, 2013 5:35:23 GMT -7
I am not a moderator, just another "parent" dealing with this horrible disease (it is a horrible disease - but our dogs are awesome). So glad he is in no pain and eating etc. Does he have bladder/bowel control?
Yes, the crate rest is really hard but it somehow gets a bit easier with time. I am in week 5 of crate rest and here is what has helped me:
- we have a "day suite" for when we are not home set up in our kitchen. This seems to calm her when we are not home and she just spends the day snuggled and warm and no doubt sleeping.
- we have a "home suite" for whenever we are home. Its an ex-pen that resides in our living room whenever we are home. It is moved to our bedroom at night. This helps her not to feel alone, although if she can't see us she gets mad.
- I have surrendered my bathroom to her at night for crate use. It was an item she loved before and I would frequently find her curled up in it. I think it gives her comfort and have found that it helps her to rest and relax at night. Do you have something like that? Perhaps a sweatshirt that smells like you and it soft? Chaz might like it.
Others have gotten a stroller, but the cost was a factor for us and we opted not to. Good luck - the crate rest does get easier.
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Marjorie
Moderator~
Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,724
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Post by Marjorie on Oct 23, 2013 7:06:59 GMT -7
I'm glad Chaz is home, Steve. I'm sure he'll heal much better in a loving environment. Can you please let us know what meds he's on with the exact dosage in mgs and frequency of dosage? Yes, most dogs take a bit of time getting used to crate rest. But a full 8 weeks is needed to heal that disc so be strong and he will adapt. Jean has given you some good tips and there are some more things that might be helpful at: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/EmergencyCrate%20Training.htmDid the vet give you a demonstration on how to express Chaz's bladder? Please let us know how that is going as its very important to empty Chaz's bladder throughout the day if he can't do it himself. Blessings to you and Chaz. |
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Post by nikkimarie on Oct 23, 2013 11:11:22 GMT -7
Hi Marjorie!
The bladder control and bowel movements are what I'm most concerned about. We were told we would need to express his bladder. He has been urinating when we pick him up and once he starts he seems to keep going. The vet showed us how to press on his bladder to release the urine but I don't feel like I'm doing it right. He said not to press too hard and if we're trying and not seeing anything not to stress out just to try again in a title while. He's been sleeping and is not crying in pain but his belly or bladed seems VERY full
Hi newbiemomiv1!
I'm sorry your girl is going through this too! If you don't mind me asking, is she paralyzed or dies she have use if her legs? Has she come back from paralyses? How is she doing with bladder control?
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Marjorie
Moderator~
Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,724
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Post by Marjorie on Oct 23, 2013 11:44:17 GMT -7
You may need to return to the vet today to get another lesson or to let the vet watch you to see your technique. When you pick him up and he pees, his bladder may be overflowing, which can stretch out the bladder. When you express (gently press on his bladder), you should be getting a good stream of pee if he hasn't gone in a few hours. The bladder moves around as it gets smaller and sometimes it moves back towards the hips so you'll need to feel for it. You'll know that the bladder is empty when the bladder feels flat and your fingers almost meet. There are good tips for expressing and explanation of technique and video on this webpage: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/Expressing.htmDon't worry about bowel control. Reflexes will take care of ridding the body of feces. You can also express the bowels but it's more important at this point to get the bladder expressing down. If Chaz's bladder feels very full, then he needs to be expressed. Please let us know how your next attempt goes. It does take some practice so keep trying. I found it difficult in the beginning too but now it's just a routine part of our day. Let your vet know if you don't think you're doing it correctly. Please let us know the exact dosage and frequency of each medication that Chaz is on as that gives us information we'll need to give you support as you care for Chaz. Was he given an anti-inflammatory, a pain medication and was he given the OK to take Pepcid AC to protect his GI tract from side effects? |
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Post by jone2tone on Oct 30, 2013 18:06:58 GMT -7
Just checking in. We finished week one of crate restriction. He hates it and doesn't mind telling us so!
Still no improvements, he has no control over his back end. In addition over the past week his spine seems to be pushed up much more than normal.
We're being careful to give the meds on time, giving him routine clean ups. I'm just worried he might not come back from this.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,548
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Post by PaulaM on Oct 30, 2013 19:14:10 GMT -7
Steve, sounds like Chaz has his personality back and telling you what he thinks! That would be a good sign…I'll ask some more questions below just to make sure. Do know success is measured by a happy dog who is not in pain…that way after crate rest, the can get back to fully enjoying life while waiting on more nerve healing to happen.
With some reading up on this disease, you know not to expect neuro functions to return during the 8 weeks of crate rest. All the focus is on getting the disc to heal. Neuro function may or may not also repair in that short amount of time. Nerves are the slowest part of the body to heal….so think in terms of months rather than weeks.
We are a group who LOVE details… that kind of information helps us to give better support.
-- What meds he is now on…the exact names the dose in mg's, how often you give… could you list them out for us. Has there been any recent lowering/tapering off of any of them?
-- Do you see any of these signs of pain: shivering, trembling, yelping when picked up or moved, reluctant/slow to move body, tight hard tummy? Would you say Chaz is his normal perky self? The hunched back could mean he is in pain if you are also seeing other signs of pain. Normally the hunched back goes away with time.
Often it takes being at the anti-inflamamtory dose of prednisone (5mg 2x/day) for 1-2 weeks or even for some dogs more like a month before all the swelling is gone. On the taper the dose is lowered to less than the anti-flammatory dose and that is the time to assess just how well reduction of swelling is going by observing for pain.
-- How often are you expressing his bladder? He should stay drying inbetween times if you are expressing often enough (like every 2-3 hours if on a steroid) and if you now have the level of proficiency to actually feel the shape of the bladder. The last stage is so flat you can almost feel the fingers of your other hand….then you know his bladder has been fully expressed…allowing more hours in between session to stay dry. Let us know the details.
-- Have you seen his tail wag specifically if you do some happy talk or he sees a treat coming?
-- Can he move his legs at all?
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Post by jone2tone on Oct 30, 2013 19:25:50 GMT -7
Hi Paula, I'll do a few short posts to make sure I don't miss anything.
His meds:
Prednisone 5mg - 1/2 pill every other day. He was on a full pill every other day for the first week home, our vet suggested the start of tapering.
Metronidazole 250mg - 1/2 tab twice a day
Famotidine 20mg - 1/2 tab twice a day
He doesn't really seem to be showing any pain. Tonight he got shivery after his bath, but we're counting that as his being scared of baths!
While we thought we were seeing some tail wagging, it seemed mostly when we were expressing his bladder. I think we jumped the gun there - may have been more of an involuntary movement.
Absolutely no use of his back legs.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,548
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Post by PaulaM on Oct 30, 2013 20:12:50 GMT -7
I hope by bath you meant just using some baby wipes or a damp washcloth, those are the safe way to clean what needs cleaning. Brew some green tea and cool it…dampen a washcloth to neutralize urine's alkalinity on fur and skin plus gives a fresher smell. A bath in a tub/sink would be a very risky thing for his early healing disc….just way too much potential for too much movement. A wet slippery dog. Dog is out of his recovery suite. Dog shakes off water.
Now that the taper has begun, do be extra watchful for any hint of pain surfacing….that would indicate that not all the swelling is gone and the need for another round of Pred. Something your vet would need to know about right away.
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Post by nikkimarie on Nov 5, 2013 10:56:32 GMT -7
Hello Paula and other Dodgerslist parents,
With a very heavy heart, I am sad to report that on Nov 1st, we said goodbye to our Chazzy. Earlier in the week, starting Monday through Wednesday, he'd suffered from bouts of diarrhea, despite being on special food for his GI tract. Even during this, he still wanted to eat and drink and seemed to be alright, so we were hopeful. After those issues subsided, he started to become listless and went from sitting up in his crate barking and communicating with us, to laying down and sleeping. He also did not want to eat two mornings in a row starting Thursday. I suspected he had gotten a UTI or bladder infection despite the constant changes of puppy pads, towels, bedding and wipe-downs with baby wipes and damp cloths. We had to give baths in the sink, for just his lower half, a couple times as well, because he had soiled his bedding and himself beyond the help of wipes. He felt very warm and his urine had a strong odor. On Friday, we took him to the vet and found that he had lost four pounds, in under two weeks, despite having eaten very well for nearly that whole time and being confined to the crate with no exercise. When the vet checked his back legs and feet, he had no sensation at all and showed no reaction to her pinching his toes. The doctor explained that another course of antibiotics would be needed to clear up the infection which would cause more havoc to his tummy, and again, despite our best efforts to provide clean, soft and comfortable bedding, he was also getting sores from lying down. We could see the exhaustion in his eyes and he'd just lost his spirit, which we really hoped would prevail. Please understand we did not hastily make this horribly difficult decision. Nor did we make it because we were too lazy or not committed enough to his recovery. This was not a "cure" for us. We made this decision because we love him, we knew him, and it was our responsibility to ease his suffering and pain. While we were not expecting a miracle in just two weeks of crate rest, we did not expect him to decline so quickly and it was absolutely heartbreaking. I saw Chaz the night he was born over eleven years ago, and visited him every week until I took him home him at two months old. he was the first dog I'd ever had. He lived with me in five different homes, witnessed many up's and down's was my best friend. I will never have a bond with another dog like the one I had with Chaz. I want to thank everyone on this forum who gave us advice and support. We still have our Doxie Fred, and while I'm hoping we DON'T have the same issues with him, it's good to know that we can reach out for help from people who have gone through this. Thank you all again.
Nikki
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Post by Jean & Mimi on Nov 5, 2013 11:37:07 GMT -7
I am so sorry for your loss. I know Chaz is watching over you.
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Marjorie
Moderator~
Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,724
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Post by Marjorie on Nov 5, 2013 11:42:01 GMT -7
I'm so terribly sorry to hear this. My sincerest condolences on your loss. My thoughts and prayers are with you.
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Post by nikkimarie on Nov 5, 2013 11:58:09 GMT -7
Thank you both. I was nervous to post about his passing because I didn't want to upset anyone going through this. It can be stressful enough! But I do know each dog and situation are different and my wish is that EVERY dog out there and their families working for recovery, are doing well.
Nicole
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,548
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Post by PaulaM on Nov 5, 2013 13:30:18 GMT -7
I am so sorry for your loss Nikki and Steve. My heart breaks to hear of this turn of events and the pain you must be suffering. Life is a journey where we need learn in order to possibly apply to a future time with another dog. On the surface this is what I take away from what you just wrote, with the understanding there may be additional facts not included in your post. Generally vets first use a broad spectrum antibiotic to try and hit the specific bacteria. When the infection is not clearing, then a urine culture is necessary to find out the exact bacteria and to apply the corresponding antibiotic. It sounds like the shotgun approach did not target the specific bacteria in the bladder with the infection continuing to rage, temperature and feeling just plain awefully crummy and lethargic …. sick and exhausted with an infection. In all honesty I do not think your vet was on the supportive side to you of doing no harm to Chaz. Not all vets are equal, some are better than others. Something to consider with Fred. There is a lovely website called the Dachshund Memorial Garden where you can pay tribute and even place a photo. Many touching poems to help in this time of grief: www.dachshundmemorialgarden.comGodspeed Chaz! |
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Post by Nancy & Polly on Nov 5, 2013 15:17:02 GMT -7
Im so sorry to hear of your loss.
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StevieLuv
Helpful Member 
Conservative Treatment 3x. It really does work!
Posts: 1,335
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Post by StevieLuv on Nov 5, 2013 16:38:22 GMT -7
I am so sorry for your loss. May the happy memories of times past give you comfort during this sad time.
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Post by Pauliana on Nov 5, 2013 21:41:08 GMT -7
Nikki and Steve..
So sorry to hear about your Chaz. May you find comfort in cherished memories of Chaz..
Hugs and prayers..
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lupi
New Member
Doing better every day!
Posts: 52
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Post by lupi on Nov 5, 2013 21:46:51 GMT -7
I'm very sorry you lost your Chaz.
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