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Post by mau777 on Mar 18, 2013 12:34:07 GMT -7
My name Is Maureen. I live in Warren Ohio. I have a black and tan doxie I adopted in fall of 2011. She is 5. When i got her, she was very skiddish around people and dogs. I worked very hard with her and a dog trainer to help her over come her issues. She has blossomed into a lovely little lady who is with me all the time...She is my companion and I love her.
Two weeks ago, when i was out of town, i recieve d a call from my neighbor and adult son who were caring for abby while i was away. No specific injury occurred. But Abby developed a favoring of the leg one day and with in 24- 38 hours she was paralyzed and could not move her back legs. My son took her to the vet during this time and Abby was diagnosed with a herniated disc. It was redcommended that Abby have suregery as soon as possible whiel she still had pain sensation in her back leg. I did not have the 5000 dollars needed to do the surgery and could not make the decsion while being out of twon. The alternative was to put her on prednisolone, the anti iflammatory if I am spelling that right and a pain medication. Tramadol. I returned home and have been nursing abby with strict crate rest. I hve been doing my best to keep her clean rinsing her bottom, as i am told that a downed dog brings a host of problems and issues as well. . She has no control of bowel or bladder. Lasat monday she began to pee what looked like blood with a terrible odor. i thought she was bleeding internally. She had a bladder infection and was then put on an antibotic. I have read the literature about the labor intensive care a downed dog requires.
Right after this happened. abby had decreased appetite and poor intake of water. She trembled and held her head up in a weird posture as i read on on e of the literature pieces you provided,,indicates she is in pain.. She had an awful sadness to her eyes. One night before i took her to vet to have th bladder infection idiagnosed, she became irritable and groweld at me when i went to check her butt...She has never doen that before EVER to me. She does not yelp and appears to be in no pain at this time and seems to be perking up since being put on the antibiotic. When I took Abby back to the vet this mornign, she does not feel that abby will likely regain use of her legs back and that is why she told me i could take her off the anti inflammatory meds. I am a mixture of emotions while my abby cannot use her back legs she seems to be perking bacck up to be more herself. However...if she will be unable to regain use of her legs and not walk again and is unable to get control over bladder and or bowel, what does that mean for her...I have had to learn to express her, but the poop is another story..My thought was I will continue to rest her, even thought the vet does not seem to feel that this is goig to make a difference,. I will keep her clean and crate her even though this is hard for me...finish her medications and then try the cart.. the water therapy, the massage..i just dont know that with all of this that she will regain any use of her legs and that is pretty much what the vet was telling me.. I guess I am looking for some guidance , support, would like to know what other people have done and what I should do as a responsible pet owner. yes maybe I should have done the surgery but I did not have the money to do it....I want to do right by abby but I dont want her to suffer and i want her life to be full of quality. Thanks for what ever information I can recieve
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PaulaM
Moderator. 
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,928
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Post by PaulaM on Mar 18, 2013 16:41:43 GMT -7
Maureen, welcome to Dodgerslist we are so glad you found us. We have lots to share with you. Then we want you to further your education about IVDD so you know the enemy and will know you can win!!!! As you get things right for Abby, do pursue reading the Disc Disease 101 information here: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingpage.htmHere are the things to address:If Abby currently holds her head in an unusual position, shivers, yelps, her pain meds are not right, she is being under medicated for pain. The right mix/dose/frequency of pain meds gets pain fully under control in 1 hour and thereafter dose to dose. Please review the meds which ARE used with a disc problem as well as things you can do to help Abby to get her pain free asap in the morning: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/cervical.htmPrednisolone is used until the swelling which causes the pain has been resolved. Walking, nerve function is not what Prednisone is used for. Pred and pain meds are to deal pain. It can take 1-2 weeks to get the swelling down, some dogs need to be on Pred for more like a month...it is just an individual thing. Abby is showing that she needs to have her stomach protected tonight. In the morning keep the vet in the loop. Cortisteroids (Prednisone, Prednisolone, Dexamethasone, etc.) are involved with stimulating gastric acid secretion causing GI upset to the more threatening bleeding ulcers or holes in the stomach or intestine. Phrase the question to your vet in this particular way: "is there any medical reason my dog may not to take Pepcid AC?" If there is no reason, we follow vets who are proactive in protecting the stomach by giving doxies 5MG Pepcid AC (generic name is Famotidine) 30 mins prior to steroid. Pepcid AC is a generally safe over-the-counter suppressor of stomach acid production for healthy dogs. We ask that all members read about each med their dog is on or may take as a safety measure. This directory is in alpha order: www.marvistavet.com/html/pharmacy_center.htmlCan you give us a list of the meds she is currently on with dose in mg and how often. Let us know has there been a recent taper down from the orig dose of Pred? Abby needs to have her bladder manually expressed this is why she got the UTI and why all the leaking. Review this video and the tips and get a hands on top of your hands lesson. www.dodgerslist.com/literature/Expressing.htmThere is concern your vet did not give you a lesson on expressing, did the vet know Abby was overflowing urine all this time? The reason to go off Pred because Abby would never walk is also concerning if that is an true report. If all this is true, it is apparent your vet is not comfortable with IVDD. This puts the you in the position to be as educated as you can to monitor things and advocate for Abby OR to hire a vet who does feel comfortable with IVDD. This can help you organize you thought in find a new vet: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/VetchkList.htmJust know once you get things right, it will be so much easier on you and Abby. Please let us know about the pain meds, Pepcid AC, expressing |
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Post by mau777 on Mar 18, 2013 21:08:45 GMT -7
Paula, Thank you thank you , thank you...What a wonderful web site. I have been reading, reading and digesting. thank you so much. hope I can find this section again. I am not computor sauvy and have difficulty maneuvering the particulars.
Abby is on: Tramadol 50 mg/ Tablet 1/4 tablet by mouth every eight hours
Prednisolone 5mg- per tablet- 1/2 tab every 12 hours. for seven days; then 1/2 tab every 24 hours for 7 days, then 1/2 tablet every other day til gone. the bottle had 12 quanitity.
now clavamox- 125 mg/ tab one taab every 12 hours.
Please help educate me, tell me what you meant about abby's stomach.
When i took abby back tot he vet last wednesday because of the bleeding..( She went down on thursday, the 7th. The doctor did tell me i needed to start expressing her. And yes I did tell her that she was leaking...she showed me how to express her, but i dd not feel like i had the hang of it..This past monday when she went back for a recheck, the antibiotic is working some but infection still not cleared up. She showed me again where the position of the bladder was and again what to do. I feel like i had a better grip on it. Like milking a cow almost. This time when i made the movements on her belly having a better understanding of wherre the bladd er is located...pee came out. So I am feeling a bit more comfortable with this.How often shoudl i do this and what about when i have to be away from her for 8 hours when i am working. what about poop. Okay to rinse her , small sits bath with no pressure on hip spine to clean her off...how do i help her with this, expressing poop... Will definately refer to your literature...the discussion about the prednisone being stopped came about when we were talking about her meds and how she was doing. I cant recall what specifically was stated as this has all been a blur for me. But she said somethign to the effect that I coudl stop the anti inflammatory meds..I was suprised and said " really". I told her abby was not eating well and her appetite had decreased. She told then to keep abby on it because it would help to stimulate her appetite.. This was discussed when I had gotten back into town after abbys first visit to the vet. I got in late sunday and took her on monday. The pain sensation abby had on thursday when my son took her was gone...Had I not read your literature on what pain looks like, I would never had known abby was uncomfortable. i can tell you that in the last week however, she is not holding her head oddly and the shivering. at times she will seem like she is whining but it s like the sound she makes when she is in her crate and she wants me to come and get her...before she became ill. That happened only one or two time s and not for a few days now. Should i continue to rest her more weeks before letting her move or trying a cart. What dod i do about her being incontinent. will that sensation come back at all and or can she be trained. I justwant to do my best for abby bur am afraid it wont be..she honestly has seemed like she is feeling better in the last four days...her mood, her eyes, her appetite..all improved. All these questions....will have more, but thank you s o much for your support. When i took abby back to the vet today...i asked her...' you don't think abby is going to gget use back of her legs do you...and she told me no. I asked her then " is that why you felt it was okay to take her off the prednisione to which she said yes...She was kind enough and empathetic, but she is being realistic with me. Abby is however starting to seem more herself. She definately wants to move...I am sorry this email is so disjointed and it seems like i am jumping all over the place. just have lots of questions and have so much to say so i am typing fast and my spelling is terrible...Thank you for your support...it s so appreciated..
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Post by natureluva on Mar 20, 2013 13:48:01 GMT -7
Hi there, a stomach protectant such as Pepcid AC (famotidine) should be given 30 minutes before each dose of steroid to protect your dog from getting an ulcer due to the excess acid caused by the steroid. Please tell your vet you want to protect your dog's stomach and tell them you want to give Pepcid AC. Ask them if there are special guidelines for dosing due to the Clavamox. Your vet may want to prescribe Sucralfate to coat your dog's stomach, too.
Glad to hear you're getting better at expressing. Be sure to express her right before you go to work and then right when you get home. Try expressing 4 to 6 times per day.
It can take months for nerves to regenerate after a disc episode, so it will be some time before you will know whether your pup will walk again. Those that don't walk simply use a cart and have a great quality of life!
Do keep her crated - it is the crate rest that heals the disc while the meds mask the symptoms and control swelling on the spinal cord. Just because you see improvement does not mean that the disc is healing - that is the meds talking. You can put the crate in the same room as you to make her feel more comfortable.
Please let us know how things are going. ~Lisa
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Post by mau777 on Mar 27, 2013 14:05:51 GMT -7
Thank you all for your support and suggestions. Abby and her mama are adjusting. I do have questions, Abby went down on March 7th and I have been crating her since then. I am done with the clavomox and the anti inflammatory. The prescription has run out. and medication finished. I am expressing her as often as I can. However,the days I work I am gone 8 hours plus and have no one to check on her all the time. I am doing my best..But dont have a lot of support. Sometimes she is dry , other times not when I come home. Here are my questions.
1) should I continue to crate Abby 4 more weeks even though she appears to be active and wanting to pull herself when I let her out to potty and set her down to feed. I Have not let her do this because I know it is not good.
2) SHould Abby continue to be on the anti inflammatory and pain meds for the next four weeks, indefinate...
3) what are the uses for benadry and is it recommended to be given to dogs. I thought I read this somewhere
4) i AM Getting good at expressing urine, what about poop. Is there a way to do that as well with feces.
3) When I am home , sometimes I will let Abby rest on a pillow dog bed about 35 in by 23. There is a barrier around it so she can not get out. She likes to lay on it while she chews on a chewy stick and then ends up taking a nap. Is this not a good idea. She sseems to be so comfortable and then when she starts getting active, I will put her back in her crate. I guess I just feel bad she is in the crate the whle 24/7. I feel like I am being mean and should be interacting with her.
4) should I wait the four more week s of crate rest before trying a cart, acupuncture, water therapy or massage. I have been given the name of a holistic vet with in an hour from me that deals with IVDD. I gave my vet the information from dodgerslist to try and help educate her as well.
I am more encouraged as abby is more herself now and her appetite is back to normal. She has absolutely no deep pain sensation in her back legs what so ever and they flop..Is is still possible that she could regain some use with that description. Has anyone seen a dog with the described presentation noted above who has regained any / some use of limbs, bowel and or bladder. Is it still possible.
Thank you all to dodgerslist. I feel supported and less overwhelmed when Abby first became ill. Thanks.
Maureen and abby
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Post by natureluva on Mar 27, 2013 15:19:30 GMT -7
Maureen, I'm so happy to hear that Abby's personality has returned. When you tapered the steroid, did Abby experience any return of pain? Is she pain free now? Signs of pain are reluctance to move, head/nose held up or down, yelping, lack of appetite, a tight-feeling tummy (like a drum), panting, or shivering/trembling. If she is pain free, then the steroid has done its job of eliminating the inflammation on the spinal cord. However, because she is pain free and off meds does NOT mean that the disc is healed. What heals the disc is 8 weeks of strict crate rest (minimized movement of the spine). It takes longer for discs to heal than even bones! You do not want Abby to have a relapse, so I would continue crating her to ensure the disc gets fully healed. Think of the affected disc as a cut on a knuckle that has formed a scab. Move the knuckle too soon and the scab will lift and ooze again. Same thing with the injured disc - allow the dog to move too soon and it can further bulge or ooze fluid onto the spinal cord, causing a relapse or worsening of neurological condition. It is fine to have her in a small open-air pen or playpen, ex-pen, as long as she has just enough room to fully stretch our and turn around in. Or, if you put her in an ex-pen, you could enlarge it enough so that you can sit in there with her and pet her while you watch tv. The idea of crate rest is to have her enclosed in an area small enough where she can not walk around, but big enough for her to comfortably and fully lie down. Acupuncture can begin right away - the sooner the better. It stimulates the nerves to heal and induces a state of well-being. No cart should be considered until at least 8 to 10 weeks after the disc episode. This is because it can take some dogs a long time (many months) to fully heal, so they may walk again. In that case, your money is better spent on PT and acupuncture than a cart. No water therapy until after the 8 weeks of crate rest. Benadryl can be used to calm a dog, but you will need to get your vet's permission to give it and the dosage amount. You can express poop too! I express my dog's poop first thing in the morning and then, if he has one ready, right before bedtime. Here's a video to help you: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/Expressing.htm Yes, it is still possible for her to regain neurological functions. It took my dog 11 months to walk again after his disc episode. Some dogs stand up a week into treatment and others, like my Goosie, take much longer. Read through some of our Success Stories to get an idea of the range of recoveries: www.dodgerslist.com/monthstory.htm When a dog heals from a disc episode, if it recovers neuro functions, they will come back in this order: DPS, tail wagging to joyful stimulus, bladder control, leg movement. So watch for those things in the coming weeks. Even if your dog remains paralyzed, she will have a happy, fulfilling life in a cart. You'd be so surprised and pleased at how well they adjust and love life! We look forward to your next update! You're doing a great job. Best wishes, ~Lisa |
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Post by mau777 on Mar 27, 2013 19:52:03 GMT -7
Lisa,
Thank you so much. I need the support and the encouragement. I have tears in my eyes. To answer your questions, No abby does not seem to be in any pain since stopping the steroid and does not exhibit any of the signs you mention that could indicate pain. Does that mean i dont need to aask the vet for a refill.
Should I not let her lay on that dog pillow when out of the crate for breakfast or potty break..As long as she is quiet or chewing a bone..I hear you say strict crate rest, 24/7. is that correct. My daily routine so far is when we get up in the morning. I express her pee, and try to get as much poop out of her butt. I will view the video on expressing poop. I clean her bedding and put fresh in. Then I feed her, give her a sits bath in my sink rinsing off any urine residue and or poop. powder her like a baby..just a little..it doesnt have anything in it she can lick to make her ill. Then I express her again. Sometimes I will let her lay on the dog bed in front of fire place and she chews a bone and then goes to sleep. When she wakes up and starts to want to move,,,like scooting which she has tried..i put her back in her crate. Before I do, tho,,.I express her again, clean any poop and then put her back in the cage. I am reading that I should move the crate with me in various rooms if I can. Should I not do this...just in and out of crate to pee and eat...Thats the word strict I guess huh....Just feel bad ...for her.
On the four days I am off. I try to express her frequently and stay close to her. On the three days that i do work, i get home as quickly as I can. SOmetimes my neigbhor will come over and help when she can. Abby seems to be staying dryer longer and there is no dribbling or wetting upon moving like she did before when she had the bladder infection. that was before I knew how to properly express. I think if i can get the hang of expressing her poop. we will be good.
Thank you for the encouragement. I also understand you to say that I can start acupucture immediately, but no cart. or water . I was put in touch with a vet who does treats this IVDD...WIll need to get in touch...I just want to do right by her..thank so much ..anything else I should be doing but am not...I appreciate the feed back.
Maureen..
P.s. Lisa, when this first happened. Abby was exhibiting all those signs
of pain you mention. I did not know....I just knew she wasnt herself
and not feeling good. It was so hard to see her in this state. She is so
different now and seems to be back to normal. Happy if you will. The
big thing is no pressure on her spine right. what movements again
specifically exacerbate the problem...She has been active always and I
think as she is feeling better..she is seeming to want to move
more...Being in the crate restricts her movement I suppose and that
makes sense...Thanks again...If she seems to be feeling okay does that
mean, pain meds are no longer necessary. I have still been giving those
to her...Thanks.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,928
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Post by PaulaM on Mar 27, 2013 20:14:09 GMT -7
Maureen, I know it is hard to wrap your mind around why it is critical to do 100% STRICT crate rest 24/7 only out for potty time. The thing is dogs always do the unexpected. You would feel so awful if Abby hurt her self by darting away when you had the ability to keep her safe in the recovery suite. This page will give you the overview on on how everything works when doing conservative treatment www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingpage.htm I hope you will be able to invest in IVDD education as that is what it takes to protect our dogs...reading all you can in our "Disc Disease 101" treasure trove of information. The taper and stop of Pred is to let you know if all the swelling is gone. So if there is no pain, then no pain medications are needed at all. Try if at all possible to not give sitz baths. Clean her with a damp washcloth or non-scented baby wipes. Is her poop soft and thus making a mess? Since she is no longer on Pred, expressing can likely go to more like every 4-6 hours IF your expressing technique has reached the proficiency level to void all the urine at each session..which would be the reason you go longer inbetween expressing session. Let us know how often you are expressing. Put casters on the crate so you can move it room to room. You local petshop may stock them. snipurl.com/22wcpkp [casters] |
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Post by mau777 on Mar 28, 2013 7:49:29 GMT -7
You guys are the best...Will do...will follow the instructions as best I can and will get reading on the literature you suggest. I have been into some of the information already...the poop is actually formed, not runny.. I guess i am trying to keep her clean. Because she wants to lick...and I thought it might make her feel better. I hold her when I do it...its more just to rinse her off and swish water on her...But I do have baby wipes which I can start to use more regularly for that..
I am expressing her at least every four to 6 hours. sometimes less than 4-6 hours when i am home..The biggest issues is when I work I am gone more than 8 hours...Sometimes I have a neighbor that can come over and help. most times i dont and i dont know what the remedy is for that. I don't have a lot of neighbors i can rely on or who would do what needs to be done. On those nights, sometimes the crate is dry. other times damp..
when I am home sometimes I will express Abby more frequently..like every few hours..but I do try to express her at least four times as suggested...
SOmetimes she seems to have difficulty finding a comfortble position.. I haave never seen her lay straight out on her side. Even if I put her in that position she does not stay...she tends to lay on her stomach, or somewhat on her side kind of with her back legs either slightly to the side or under her..i have b een putting her blanket at the head of her cage where she likes to lay her head...she seems to find comfort. She used to sleep all curled up before she got injured...Now she is a little bit more stretched out...but definately not fully outstretched or on her sides because she doesnt seem to like it..Is this bad..
Thank you again. Dont know what I would have done with out dodgers list...Maureen
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,928
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Post by PaulaM on Mar 28, 2013 8:29:39 GMT -7
Marueen, that is sweet music to our ears to hear you are accessing and reading the Dodgerslist treasure trove of Disc Disease information! Kudos to you!!! In the early days, everyone needs a shoulder to lean on while getting things figured out, dealing with emotions of learning our dogs have IVDD and getting up to speed on meds, what disc disease is, etc. Our hope for each owner is that they become independent with the ability to discuss confidently with their vet various issues from medications to recognizing if suggestions of activity would be harmful to the healing disc. All that takes being a reader.
Often the licking is because of smelling bacteria.... a UTI. I would ask for a urinalysis. You bring in a urine sample for the vet to run the test and call you back with the results. It would be good to rule out infection is still present and that Clavamox was the right anti-biotic for the bacteria in Abby's bladder.
Since Abby is off Pred, there should not be a need to express so often (every few hours) to keep her dry. See if you can move to at max 3-4 hours. And likely every 4-6. Each time you express it is time out of the crate when there is the danger of the unexpected that can happen. Going potty is necessary, of course. So let us know why you are expressing every couple of hours... is it the licking of her butt?
Are you seeing any hint or suggestion in addition to not lying fully stretched out that would indicate she is still in pain..... shivering, trembling, yelping when picked up or moved, tight hard tummy? Any signs of pain need to be reported to the vet as then all of the swelling is not yet gone.
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Post by mau777 on Mar 28, 2013 11:49:22 GMT -7
Paula. once again. thank you. The only I express her more frequently is i guess...because I feel like I should to keep her bladder empty and her dry. But if you tell me that 4-6 hours is sufficient while off the prednisone, then that is what I will do. I guess it is just me being worrisome and doing overkill.
Regarding her laying down...she has never laid on her side. Only very infrequently and rarely do i remember that and that was when we were out side sitting on the patio and she would lay out basking in the sun. I still dont believe she is in any discomfort. She does not exhibit the signs you speak of and that I read about. She did in the first week however. That has since been gone..I guesss the only way to describe it..is.....its almost like she is not sure what to do with the rest of her body....like she knows its there, but not working...She has always slept in a curled up position..... Obviuosly less now because of the injury..Its like she knows that she cant move her body that way anymore....Does that make sense. I am trying to explain it as best I can..At times I wondered if the crate were too samll 23X 16..She is 13 pounds.. She has alsways seemed to like it and go into it on her own when we were here just doing down time. When I put her in there. she is sitting up...she has always done that ...then she lays down...She appears to be comfortable....and her body is more outstretched. I had tried building a welping box of sorts around her 35 by 23 dog pillow...high enough that she could not get out. She hated it..cried to get out..and actually even tried to get out by puttiing her paws up on the edge. Figured that was a no no right there..Felt bad. because my boyfriend built it...but may try it again here at my house...However when she does lay on that dog bed...its the same position she takes wwhen in her crate. which tells me there is enough room. And yes..she could move around in it...Hope I am explainin tthis well..
The vet is going to do a urinalysis on Monday when I take Abby..I thought she was licking more to get the poop out....but i could be wrong....I am going to read the information on expressing feces. I feel like I am getting good at expressin her urine...The vet did describe the same things that you do as well...being srue the infection is totally cleared up and that she is on the right antibiotic.
My worry...is the days that I am gone longer than 8 hours...that is only three days a week. I dont see any solution to that.. Is this a bad thing. This new job is too far from my home that i can not come home at lunch time to take care of her. My old job I could..and like I said ..I have a neighbor who helps but i cant rely on her all th etime....any thoughts and or will this be harmful to her....It just means I cannot express her at 4-6 hours interval...When She was healthy,,,she was able to hold her urine and we walked diligently as soon as i got home. .She is a sweet girl....but i dont know any other way around that dilemma....Thanks again...hope i answered your questions....you are the best....
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Post by natureluva on Mar 29, 2013 16:06:40 GMT -7
Hi there, just chiming in, you could have a vet tech or a pet sitter come once a day to express her while you're at work. Many techs do sitting services in their spare time, and many pet sitters have experience with special needs dogs. Here is a link to help you: www.petsitters.org/Also, I just want to encourage you to pursue electric acupuncture with a veterinarian as it stimulates the nerves to heal, reduces inflammation, and induces a state of well-being. I really believe it helped my dog's bladder control return more quickly. Can Abby wag her tail at all when she is excited or happy? Does she have any leg movement? I'm trying to determine her neurological status. When a disc injury occurs and pressure is put on the spinal cord, the dog loses neurological functions in a certain order. When the disc injury is healing, neurological functions return in the opposite order. So as Abby heals, she may start showing signs of neuro functions returning. The first to return is deep pain sensation in the rear feet. The second thing to return is tail wagging ability. The third thing is bladder control, and the last thing is leg movement. Some dogs will not regain neuro functions because the nerve damage was too severe. However, it is difficult to tell which dogs will regain function and which won't, because each dog heals differently and at a different rate. It took my dog 11 months after his injury to walk again, while other dogs only take a few weeks to be able to stand. The main goal is that the dog is pain free. A pain free dog is a happy dog, whether walking or not! You're doing a great job with her, hang in there! Just keep practicing strict crate rest so that disc can fully heal. We look forward to your next update. Best wishes, ~Lisa |
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Post by mau777 on Mar 31, 2013 13:54:48 GMT -7
Lisa, Or Paula,
I checked the petsitters link. Unfortunately, I am unable to find a pet sitter in my area and or close. Abby seems to be doing better. She does nt show signs of wagging her tail or DPS. Her back legs are floppy. I am re reading the literature on disc disease, the definition of crate rest and the videos on expressing urine / bladder. I had been giving her a chewy at times because she loves these. But I see in your literature that you discourage and admonish against this because of the movement of neck and head when chewing. I will see my vet this week. ALso have name of a holistic vet who does acupuncture and laser light therapy I am told.
I am thinking I may need to get a bigger crate for Abby. While she seems comfortable, I think it needs to be just a few inches large in width and lenght. I have noticed that at times she still trembles just a bit. Can't tell if she is having discomfort because there are no other indicatorr i.e yelping, whining, holding head up..etc. Thought maybe it was the stress of holding her upper body weight on her paws when she is in sitting position. But it is ever so slight. When she lays down it is gone..On those occasions, I do give her a dose of Tramadol. Abby has been off the steroid for about one week now and the antibiotic too for the urine infection...Should I ride it out, get her more steroid. increase her pain meds..your thoughts. I am not sure if what I am seeing is discomfort or something else. THank you for the replies and information. Maureen . Love the support..It is the best. Dont know what I would do...
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Post by mau777 on Mar 31, 2013 14:21:59 GMT -7
p.s. can I have the link again for the vet search. I want to be sure this vet whose name I have been given is on this list...Also. do you have any idea of the cost for acupuncture and laser light therapies. Thank you. Maureen
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Post by natureluva on Mar 31, 2013 15:43:48 GMT -7
Hi Maureen, if you think Abby would be more comfortable in a crate that is a few inches longer or wider, then that should be fine. You want her to be able to fully stretch out and turn around inside. Just as long as she can't walk around in it. Wire crates or play pens work best because the dog can see what's going on around her. My acupuncturist charged $170 for the first consultation and session. Then $70 per session after that. I am in Massachusetts. Here are a couple of links to search for holistic vets. Is that what you are looking for? www.holisticvetlist.com/ www.aava.org/ Be sure to ask about electric acupunture, which is stronger than regular acupuncture. Here is another link you can try for pet sitters: www.petsit.com/locate/ How is expressing the bladder going? Abby may be shivering from feeding off of your stress or anxiety about the situation. Does she have any other signs of pain such as a tight-feeling tummy (like a drum), reluctance to move, yelping, panting, or lack of appetite? If you feel she is still in pain, ask your vet if a longer course of steroid should be done and if you should continue the pain meds. Here are some dvds that can help entertain and/or calm Abby: petsittervideos.com/ and www.petmusic.com/ We look forward to your next update. Best wishes, ~Lisa |
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Post by mau777 on Mar 31, 2013 16:40:40 GMT -7
Lisa, Thanks so much. WIll check out the resources you provided. The name of the vet in this area ( with in 50 miles) came recommended by the woman whose shop I visit to buy Abby's food. This woman carries the really good dog food..Like origin,,fromms...etc. They talk about raw diet which they say is best..When I first got abby, the trainer I worked with suggested this lady and looking into some better food for abby as it was thought she might have allergies. Abby was always itching and scratching..SKin issues had been ruled out and I nver had her formally tested for allergies. But I was educated and told that many dogs have allergies to chicken which is a main ingredient in many foods found in grocery stores. It was this woman I buy my pet food from who recommended this vet when I told her about Abby's IVDD. He happens to be a holistic vet and does all the other kinds of treatments that you recommend/ mention. Are they one and the same. I am still going to check out the list you gave me. Also I read the literature on what types of questions to ask a new vet about IVDD / treatment modalities. I am getting ready to send them an email with my questions.
Abby has no other signs of discomfort or pain. She is wanting to move, scoot, walk when I have my hands under her mid to back under belly for support to keep her back legs up. And she has tried to scoot if she is in s sitting position when eating. Is this bad that she sits.. She is excited to see me when I come in for her. She will whimper for me..But it is the same cry she gave me when she was not ill..you know..." mommy's home, oh I missed you...take me out"..."time for eats, time for play"..Thank you so much for the resources and links to the calming techniques I can use with Abby. It is so appreciated...I think it was Paula who said...dogs don't look at a paralysis like we humans do. When they start to feel better they just want to get on with the business of having a happy life...If I put her on a cart now..she would go......SHe thinks she feels better...SHe went down on the 7th of March. so she still has until the 2nd of March May if I am counting right for crate rest....
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Post by mau777 on Mar 31, 2013 16:43:31 GMT -7
p.s I re viewed again, the videos Paula did about expressing. i think I am getting the hang of it. much better. Will demonstrate in front of the vet or tech to be sure I am doing it right...ALso,,,I am from Connecticut. I grew up there and my family still lives there outside of Hartford. SOme in bloomfield, some in haddam and killingworth. I am in Ohio now, Youngstown , warren area and have been here for about 30 years...Have been to massachusettes, skiid there and was up at the cape often times in my younger years. Pretty area. I have met some wonderful people from dodgers list..all supportive and wonderul. Thank you again.
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Post by natureluva on Mar 31, 2013 19:20:39 GMT -7
Hi Maureen, glad to hear that Abby isn't exhibiting any signs of pain. Since she is off all meds, you could look into getting her a pet stroller. You wouldn't believe how much mental stimulation dogs get out of stroller rides! You could take her for walks in quiet areas on smooth surfaces to relieve her boredom. My dogs "feel" like they're walking when they're in their stroller, lol. I still use it to this day! It's also nice to be able to roll my dogs up to a window or glass door so they can watch the outdoors, and its really easy to lift them out of a stroller rather than a crate. Only thing is - you can't leave a dog unattended in a stroller. A great investment and not too expensive. If strollers interest you, here's a link to help: dodgerslist.com/literature/strollers.htmThat is great news that your friend knows a good holistic vet. Acupuncture and laser light therapy are safe, effective treatments for IVDD. However, take note that chiropractic, VOM, or acupressure are NOT safe for IVDD. Putting any sort of pressure on the spine can cause a disc to worsen or rupture. Connecticut is a pretty state - love New England! Haven't been to Ohio tho. The thought of being landlocked bothers me, lol. :-) You're doing a great job with Abby. Hang in there and keep in touch. ~Lisa |
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
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Post by PaulaM on Apr 1, 2013 8:24:29 GMT -7
Maureen, I too am so very pleased to read how well Abby is progressing... no pain and off of steroids. Are you feeding Abby inside of her recovery suite? Eating inside the recovery suite would not give her really any opportunity to scoot. Sitting lying down quietly is ok, The kinds of activities that can not be allowed are the ones that are rambunctious.... such as jumping against the sides of the crate. At times when it is a necessity to be out of the recovery suite, containing her during expressing with a physical barrier will help. For example you could express her in the bathtub where she can't attempt to scoot off. Always avoid getting water spary on their bodies because there is the natural tendency to do that shake thing dogs do. With dogs under conservative treatment the goal always is to protect the disc that is trying to heal.  An ex-pen also makes a good physical barrier where you can put down a pee pad and there is still room for you inside the fenced area.
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Post by mau777 on Apr 1, 2013 21:14:03 GMT -7
once again...thank you lisa and paula..as i have begun to process what has happened to abby and have begun to educate myself with the literature your site provides. i am able to talk abit more logically and less disjointed than my first few ;posts....what a mess i was ...
well I took abby to the vet this morning for a recheck. She had been off the antibiotic for the last week or so and i felt like i was doing a decent job expressing her. last night when I did so,, the pee that came out was tinged with blood. not like it was before tho...thankfully she had another appt. this morning. The doctor did run a urinalysis and said it would take a week to come back. She put her back on the clavomox same does as before. I think 125 mg , one tab every 12 hours..She wanted her on something and said that she may have to have an antibiotic here and there to help her...will know more when the urinalysis results come back. Also,,,abby has a bit of an irritation under her tail and around her anal opening...where she was licking..i do have a topical to put on that. But tonight after rinsing her off and getting her settled, she seems fine and i havent noticed her licking to much..
I also talked with the doctor about an as needed PRN medicine for pain...As I commented, abby seems to be okay and she does not exhibit all the pain indicators you mention..However, on occasion and more so with in the last week, i will see her tremble somewhat..It is ever so slight and almost not noticeable..I only see it when she is sitting up and so there for I am thinking..is she stressed holding her front legs up..Its liek when you exercise and you fatigue a muscle and you get shakey..that s what it looks like to me..the other signs are non exhistent and her intake of food and water is normal again. She has the look in her eyes that tells me she is feelign more herself. But none the less....the doctor did give me...the tramadol...50 mg tablet to be given 1/4 to 1/2 tablet as needed for pain.. every 8 hours...then she also gave me...Rimadyl- 25 mg - one tablet every 24 hours as needed with pain. She said it ws non steroid and that the two could be taken togehter...is that sounding accurate...Alos said because it is non steroid, i did not need pepcid for her stomach. Ii did give her the rimadyl before work today..When i got home...she seemed fine...so i m not sure....Doctor also said i can give her benadryl if needed 1/2 adult tab...
Lisa, love the idea for the stroller will have to see where to find those. The information is great...can you purchase these at pet stores..Also when chosing this vet...the one that came recommended looks to be specialized in IVDD dogs and does offer many services including the acupuncture, massage and laser...I thought I saw chiropractic services on his list,,,not sure...but from what you both tell me...stay away from chiropractic, VOM...what is that. and Acupressure are no recommended correct. but Acupuncture is correct...My vet then gave me a name of another vet who would be closer...who does acupuncture and she recommended him. How would I chose between the two. should I ask them both the same questions you present on your web site when searching for some one specialized in this area...how should i decide between the two.
Paula, the picture you show above is a fairly accurate representation of abby's crate size...i think to feed her in there might be a bit cramped. I had thought about getting a crate just a slight bit bigger and lisa had commented on that as well. and the way that puppy is sitting in the picture...that is what abby does and how she holds her back legs...is that bad...The ex pen you mention...is that a particular brand that is purchase d off a web site...Pet smart has an enclosure but it i s not called Ex pen...can you guide me...and like i said, i have thought about purchasing a crate that is just a bit larget for abby.
And lastly with the expressing, i can not always feel her bladder, when I express herin the spot where I think her bladder is,,,she goes most of the time. Sometimes when I work those longer hours at my job,,,not as much comes out and her cage bedding has been dampened. Which i just clean up and wash.....feels like i have a little baby in the house...lol. I just do my best and hope its right by her..Oh...and one more lastly..Abby started failling on the 5th of march and my son took her to the vet on march 7th with the diagnosis made then...Does that mean crate rest until may 2nd...are my calculations right...
Again..I owe a debt of gratitude to you Paula, to you Lisa....I would not be the proactive pet owner I am trying to be if it were not for all the wealth of information and support you both and dodgers list has given me...If I can figure out a way to post a picture of abby on this site / post in the future i will do so....You have no idea how much you have helped me...to be quite honest and after that first week when abby had that bladder infection and she was feeling poorly... i had fleeting thoughts of having to put her down...I felt so overwhelmed and abby was not herself...the vet had told me..that many pet owners try it for a while and then decide to euthanize their pet because the care of a special needs pet can be ovewhelming. I was there. felt like i was not doing a good job providing for her....I am a social worker whose life career has been dedicated to providing sevices and protection for abused and neglected children...I thought who better to take care of a sick dog than a social worker...but boy it was overwhelmign to say the least... I now feel empowered...and that is all do to you both and all the wonderful people who post and assist with dodgers list. thank you again....Honestly...dodgers list is the first and last site i get on every day.. looking for any responses.. success stories and rays of hope..thanks again.maureen
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Post by mau777 on Apr 1, 2013 21:24:05 GMT -7
Paula forgot to ask... can you please tell me again. what proper size of recovery suite , crate should be....like i said...thinking i need to get a bit larger crate for abby...do you think it would be a good idea...still stewing about it...
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,928
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Post by PaulaM on Apr 1, 2013 21:51:34 GMT -7
There needs to be a washout 4-7 days from Pred before the start of Rimadyl. Can you tell us if that is the case. If there has been no washout, STOP the Rimadyl and ask for a 2nd stomach protector in addition to Pepcid AC... it is called Sucralfate. Marvista is where I look up my meds: www.marvistavet.com/html/pharmacy_center.htmlWe IVDD owners have learned to first look up each med before giving to our dogs. Mistakes can be made and we are acting as a nurse in a hospital would....the double checker of prescriptions. Both classes of anti-inflammatories (steroids and non-steroid anti-inflammatories) carry the adverse side effect of GI tract problems. Most dogs tolerate and benefit from NSAIDS, except the ones that have adverse side effects including death. What is the difference? It is a vet who practices safe medicine and an informed owner. The vet checks organ functions with blood work, alerts owner of what serious side effects to observe for. The owner is informed and monitors to stop the med if any one side effect is observed. Here is one place to begin your own research: www.fda.gov/AnimalVeterinary/ResourcesforYou/AnimalHealthLiteracy/ucm196295.htmFrom the Rimadyl web page: "As with other NSAID-class medications, signs of RIMADYL intolerance may include appetite loss, vomiting and diarrhea, which could indicate side effects involving the digestive tract, liver or kidneys. Some of these side effects may occur without warning and, in rare situations may be serious, resulting in hospitalization or even death. If these signs occur, discontinue RIMADYL therapy and consult your veterinarian." www.rimadyl.com/default.aspxDr. Stuart Clark-Price, a veterinary anesthesiologist and internal medicine specialist at the University of Illinois Veterinary Teaching Hospital in Urbana writes: "Cats and dogs are much more susceptible than people to the adverse effect of NSAIDs," explains Dr. Clark-Price. In short, dogs and cats are not simply smaller versions of people. They lack certain enzymes that we have, and also may process these drugs differently. In short, the use of NSAIDS in dogs and cats comes with a smaller safety margin. Because of this, it is critical that veterinary patients be accurately dosed and routinely monitored for side effects. vetmed.illinois.edu/petcolumns/petcols_article_page.php?PETCOLID=467&URL=0 OR snipurl.com/x1c28
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,928
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Post by PaulaM on Apr 2, 2013 9:42:01 GMT -7
Maureen, the way the dog sits with his legs out, is a sign of the nerve damage, the damage the disc did to the spinal cord. We have been compiling good tips and tried and true ideas for setting up the recovery suite. Be sure to check out this information to guide you in setting up yours. www.dodgerslist.com/literature.htm#recoverysuite I kinda favor an ex-pen as after crate rest you can use it to block off furniture, stairs, etc. During crate rest it is very convenient and makes it easier to access and give care.  |
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Post by mau777 on Apr 2, 2013 19:05:36 GMT -7
Paula , thank you....i tried to post something earlier.. must not have gotten posted. Abby had finished the prednisilone well before the rimadyl...she had the tapered dose of the steroid and then she was off it more than a week ...and as I shared. I only gave her one dose of the rimadyl..will read up on all the literature and readings you recommend. thanks for the information on the ex pen...appreciated , maureen
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Post by mau777 on Apr 2, 2013 19:11:46 GMT -7
Paula, can you direct me where to get the Ex pen. I called our local pet shop. they described something that looks nothing like what you show on your video...Pleaes advise. It looks like ex pen is its own brand....?? thanks
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Post by Pauliana on Apr 2, 2013 19:47:57 GMT -7
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Post by mau777 on Apr 12, 2013 8:51:56 GMT -7
Just an update...Abby is doing as weell as can be expected. Still on the crate rest. Started water therapy...just letting her in the tub... only two times have I done it. She is off the pain meds and seems to be doing good. only give tramadol or the rimadyl as needed. Will see a vet next week for acupuncture /evaluation. She is wanting to move...feeling better but I am trying to be really good with crate rest...just a few more weeks. What happens after that...are they allowed out. Should I still not let her drag and scoot if she wants to at that time. And what about a cart.. does that stay on all th e time......is she able to sit with it. Would she need a diaper then ...all those questions to follow when the time comes. thanks again all you wonderful people...we are hanging...and like is okay...
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,928
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Post by PaulaM on Apr 12, 2013 11:19:14 GMT -7
May 2 is Abby's graduation date. Until then absolutely 100% STRICT crate rest 24/7 only out to potty for a full 8 weeks …. No laps, no couch, no sleeping in bed with you, no meandering, scooting or dragging around during potty times. No baths, no water therapy, no chiro (aka VOM), NO wheelchairs. In other words do everything you can to limit the vertebrae in the back from moving and putting pressure on the bad disc. The crate is the only surface that is firm, supportive for the spine, not inclining, always horizontal and keeps a dog from darting off at a TV doorbell and safe from other pets and kids from bothering them. The rest of the details of doing crate rest to ensure the best recovery in this excellent document: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/CrateRRP.htm The purpose of crate rest is to act as a cast of sorts to let the disc heal… only limited movement of STRICT crate rest allows that to happen…there are no meds to heal a disc. Immediate neuro improvement may or may not come during the 8 weeks of crate rest… as nerves may take more than 8 weeks to heal. |
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Post by mau777 on Apr 19, 2013 2:04:48 GMT -7
Paula...got it....have been doing really good. Abby is really seeming to be feeling better and I am doing what you said. I wont put her in the tub anymore. Only twice....but i had gotten conflicting information about being able to start that..That might hve bben from the disable daschund society who referred tme to your website .so I wont....No more PRN meds either. She does not seem to need it...at all...She is still doing the antibiotic for UTI...urinalysis came back she was suseptible...clavAmox for another week. The other day...I had her out to feed. I hold her back end up, like a sling for support. She almost seemed to be putting some weight onnn her back legs..is that normal....anyways I put her back in the crate. right away...I am getting better at expressing her..sometimes...though...not alot comes out. Other times I knw I am in the right spot because as i express her,,,the urine does come out and alot. I do have an appt with a vet who does acupuncture and sees IVDD dogs..shoudl i wait until crate rest is done at 8 weeks or is that something I can do next week. Please advise. Still reading and learning about the IVDD. I am hopefull....Abby looks so much better and we are adjusting really okay....Thanks again for everything
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Post by natureluva on Apr 19, 2013 6:49:26 GMT -7
Hi, acupuncture and laser can begin ASAP. Just be sure your dog is crated to and from the appointments. Ask if they can do electric acupuncture, it is stronger than regular and can really jumpstart nerve healing.
Glad that Abby is feeling better, just continue with the strict crate rest so her disc can fully heal. After crate rest, you slowly reintroduce her into activities. If she still does not have use of her legs, you can order a cart at that time. Keep in mind, nerves continue to heal for months and months, even up to a year or more. It took my dog 11 months after his disc episode to walk again, so even if a dog uses a cart, it could be temporary. For now your focus is to be diligent about crate rest, and get her the acupuncture and laser asap!
As the weeks go by, remember to try the "sniff and pee" test to see if bladder control is returning. Carry her out to an old pee spot, support her rear with a sling or your hands, let her sniff and tell her to go pee. See if she can release pee on her own. If she can, then bladder control is returning. If she can't, express her bladder right there on the ground so you'll have a fresh pee spot to try with later. Periodically do the "sniff and pee" test.
You're doing a GREAT job with her! We look forward to your next update. Best wishes, ~Lisa
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