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Post by gretasmom on Oct 17, 2013 20:06:07 GMT -7
My little girl Greta went down last Sunday morning, we took her to the vet and he did xrays, we are way too far away from where surgerys are performed and because of that as well as the expense it isn't an option for her. She was put on prednisone for 10 days and painkillers for the same time frame and strict crate rest (although she did sneak out a couple of times when we weren't watching because we take the lid off when we're home with her so she doesn't feel so isolated), when it first happened she tried to make it to her pee pad but didn't get there, now she pees in her bed but i do think she knows because she tries to move but we aren't a hundred percent sure. She pooped alot on Sunday night and i had to very carefully give her a bath, but hasn't pooped since and I have tried to express her to no avail, i've given her canned pumpkin and still nothing. I guess my question is how long before i should worry about her not pooping? She hasn't pooped for 4 days, although her last poop she pooped 'alot'. She is eating well, is happy and would just love to play which of course she can't at this point but we do alot of 'touchy lovin'. She can wag her tail if that means anything. Even though our vet suggested it, putting her down is not an option unless she is in pain and is suffering, as that would be the only reason I think that would affect her quality of life. We don't have an endless amount of funds for treatments but would like to know what we can do on our own to help her out. We have borrowed a cart for her to try when its time, but how will we know when its time? The first couple of days there were alot of tears, but now, we are more determined than anything that this is just a bump in the road .. and whether she regains use of her back legs or not, she will still have a full, happy life.
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StevieLuv
Helpful Member 
Conservative Treatment 3x. It really does work!
Posts: 1,335 
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Post by StevieLuv on Oct 17, 2013 20:20:23 GMT -7
Hi, my name is Maureen, what's yours? Welcome to Dodgers List, I am so sorry that your Greta is having an IVDD epsiode. 100% STRICT crate rest 24/7 only out to potty for a full 8 weeks is the SINGLE most important thing you can do to help Greta-- it is the hallmark component of conservative treatment. …. No laps, no couch, no sleeping in bed with you, no meandering, scooting or dragging around during potty times. No baths, no chiro (aka VOM). In other words do everything you can to limit the vertebrae in the back from moving and putting pressure on the bad disc. The crate is the only surface that is firm, supportive for the spine, not inclining, always horizontal and keeps a dog from darting off at a TV doorbell and safe. The rest of the details of doing crate rest to ensure the best recovery in this excellent document: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/CrateRRP.htm The purpose of crate rest is to act as a cast of sorts to let the disc heal… only limited movement of STRICT crate rest allows that to happen…there are no meds to heal a disc. Immediate neuro improvement may or may not come during the 8 weeks of crate rest… as nerves may take more than 8 weeks to heal. If you would answer some questions for us, we will be better able to help you. Is there still currently pain - shivering, trembling, yelping when picked up or moved, reluctant/slow to move head or body, tight hard tummy? -- What are the exact names of meds currently given, their doses in mgs and frequencies? Pepcid AC to protect the stomach should also be on board. We follow proactive vets and give our approx 13-20 lbs doxies 5mg 30 mins prior to Pred. Phrase the question to your vet in this particular way: "Is there any medical reason my dog may not take Pepcid AC?" Here are some links to get you started on learning all about IVDD, because by learning all we can, we will become the best advocates for our dogs that we can be. Great place to start reading www.dodgerslist.com/healingindex.htmOn healing and pain www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingpain.htmPlease keep us posted, we are all in this together (((hugs))) |
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Post by gretasmom on Oct 17, 2013 21:17:11 GMT -7
Thank you so much Maureen! My name is Kerry  I will read the articles you've given. Sure is a big learning curve but we're determined. She does seem to have some pain when I pick her up to to take her to her potty mat or I move her because she arches her head and grunts. Her tummy does seem somewhat tight at times, but not all the time. She is not reluctant nor slow to move her head or her body when she's laying in her crate and will often try to look behind her (she's a nosey little girl) .. she hasn't seemed reluctant to do that from the beginning. I do not believe there is any feeling in at least one of her legs, as the vet did test her and said her right leg was unresponsive to the prick test, but there was some feeling still in the left. She is on 12.5 mg of Tramadol 3 x a day or as needed 2.5mg of apo prednisone 2 times per day for seven days, and then 1.25 mg. 2 x a day for the remaining 7 days. I believe assessment after that. She hasn't pooped since her last BM on Sunday night which concerns me. I tried to help her express but to no avail. I will try again tomorrow after I feed her as that is her normal routine, but she has peed quite alot. |
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Post by Jean & Mimi on Oct 18, 2013 5:31:11 GMT -7
Maureen I just wanted to say hi. Not a moderator, just another mom going through the same thing. Surgery isn't an option for us either because of the cost. We are on week four of crate rest and have been through some ups and downs. Hang in there, our moderators are amazing.
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Post by gretasmom on Oct 18, 2013 8:04:53 GMT -7
Hi newbiemomiv1, nice to meet you1 I can tell I will be visitng this forum frequently |
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Marjorie
Moderator~ 
Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,724
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Post by Marjorie on Oct 18, 2013 12:49:02 GMT -7
Hi, Kerry. Greta is most definitely showing signs of pain and needs to have her pain medication adjusted. She is on a light dose of Tramadol and that can be increased. Tramadol works most effectively when given every 8 hours, not on an as-needed basis. Methocarbamol treats muscle spasms stemming from aggravated muscles due to nerve trauma related to the spinal cord inflammation. Gabapentin may be added to the mix for hard to control pain and nerve pain. Veterinarians are finding this medication works very well in combination with Tramadol. More on pain relief options to discuss with your vet if you are seeing signs of pain: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingpain.htmThere should be no signs of pain from one dose of pain medication to the next dose. She may be reluctant to poop, too, because of the pain. If the pumpkin hasn't helped, you can try a really ripe mashed fresh pear, just take off the peel off; microwaved and mashed peeled sweet potato. Have you see this page about expressing? www.dodgerslist.com/literature/Expressing.htm Any urine that lies in the bladder can breed a urinary tract infection. Plus, if you're not expressing Greta, her bladder can become stretched out of shape. Ask your vet for a hands on your hands demonstration. She needs to be expressed every 3-4 hours while on Prednisone as steroids cause increased thirst and urination. Hang in there. Once the pain is under control and you learn how to express, it does all become easier. Prayers for healing for Greta Garbo. |
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PaulaM
Moderator. 
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,549
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Post by PaulaM on Oct 18, 2013 16:56:27 GMT -7
Kerry, how much does Greta weigh?
With pain showing today, then the upcoming tomorrow taper would not be be in order. A taper is also a test to see how painful swelling is being reduced by Pred. Your vet needs to have your observations of pain so a determination can be made to go back to the original dose for a bit longer.
Is the crate a plastic airline crate? It would be better if you can obtain a wire crate, a wire expen as they are more tolerated and less isolating as a recovery suite for the next 8 weeks. Also you won't feel like you need to take the lid off making her recovery suite dangerous (inviting her to escape).
If she can no longer sniff an old pee spot on a pee pad or in the grass and t hen release urine, she may have lost bladder control. If pee in her crate is because she is not being let out often enough...do know that while on pred you'd likely need to get her out to pee every 3-4 hours. Let us know what you think about bladder control.
For the next 8 weeks the single most important care you can give is the 100% STRICT rest 24/7 only out of the recovery suite to pee. This is the only way the disc can heal..with limited movement. Pain meds and anti-inflammatory work to give comfort while Prednisone reduces inflammation.
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Post by gretasmom on Oct 18, 2013 18:14:17 GMT -7
Thank you everyone! We did it! We were able to express some of her poop today, but the pumpking doesn't seem to be making it soft enough, i think this may have been causing her pain because once she went she seemed to feel better. I have been actually giving her pain meds, she does not wince or anything while she is in her crate, only when i pick her up to take her out to do her business. I am almost certain that she can also can feel when she has to pee .. and yes, I do think a wire crate would be better becuase I think I would see her 'warning' signals and she most assuredly would not feel so alienated. I do work 3 days a week, but am able to come home on my lunch but other than when I am away I am trying to get her out to pee every 2 1/2 hours (I timed her accidents) ... she has always been a very 'private' girl when it comes to toilet duties, and i think me being there is causing her to hold it in because as soon as i put her back in her crate and turn my back she goes. We had lots of kisses and pets when we were able to poop today . Thank goodness we have good noses so she doesn't sit in it for an extended period of time. I don't want to use a diaper because i see they have 'plastic' on the outside and i don't htink they would breathe very well, i do have them here though .. should I put one on her for the night? .. I support both ends very well when I lift her to her pee pads and she seems to be ok once i put her down .. its only in the transporting that she seems to have trouble. She weighs 10 lbs. and is in otherwise excellent health and condition. I will be going to get some pears and some sweet potatos tomorrow. Want to do all we can to help her in any way she needs. Thank you all for your help! |
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
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Post by PaulaM on Oct 19, 2013 7:23:41 GMT -7
Kerry, good job on expressing for poop! She may be able to feel poop about to exit, but just not have control to stop it until in a proper place. Most dogs would abhor pooping where they sleep unless they had no other alternative or they had no bowel control. I agree diapers are not a good idea as they can carry their own problems of rashes and again dogs abhor having waste near them. Best is to get on a good expressing schedule for both poop and for urine. She may be able to feel the pressure of a full bladder, but again the question is can she control her bladder to wait until in a proper place? YOu will have to observe and let us know. Do you see her sniff, try to lower herself and then there is a release of urine…that is the proof of bladder control. Picking her up is movement that can cause pain. Is this picking-up pain first thing in the morning, nearing next dose of meds or anytime during the day? IF there is pain then tapering Prednisone is NOT a good idea because pred needs to be at the original level to work on inflammation You need to get with your vet today while they are open and tell him of your observations. YOu need to know what to do if you do go on the taper and t here is pain Sat nite or Sun morning. You always need a plan B. Often it takes being at the anti-inflammatory dose of prednisone (5mg 2x/day) for 1-2 weeks or even for some dogs more like a month before all the swelling is gone. When the vet guesses swelling might be gone there will be a taper. The dose is lowered to less than the anti-flammatory dose your job at home would be to assess just how well reduction of swelling is going by observing for any hint of pain. To have a clear picture on a taper, pain meds are also stopped or backed off too. Rule of thumb is: pain = swelling = more time on Pred needed. If there is no pain on the taper then it goes to completion. Then no meds at all are needed. Disc healing will continue for the remainder of the 8 weeks. Nerves can continue to self heal…think in terms of months. So let us know if you are seeing any of these signs of pain meaning it is not time to taper today. shivering, trembling, yelping when picked up or moved, reluctant/slow to change position, tight hard tummy Often it takes being at the anti-inflamamtory dose of prednisone (5mg 2x/day) for 1-2 weeks or even for some dogs more like a month before all the swelling is gone. On the taper the dose is lowered to less than the anti-flammatory dose and that is the time to assess just how well reduction of swelling is going by observing for pain. === 10 lbs 12.5 mg of Tramadol 3 x a day or as needed 2.5mg of apo prednisone as of 10/13-- 2 times per day for seven days, and then 1.25 mg. 2 x a day for the remaining 7 days. === Can you tell us if you are actually giving Tramadol punctually every 8 hours or doing it on an as needed basis. If there is swelling, then "as needed" is not good with a disc episode, pain is best controlled with a prompt consistent schedule. Is there a reason her stomach is not yet being protected while on Prednisone? Cortisteroids (Prednisone, Prednisolone, Dexamethasone, etc.) are involved with stimulating gastric acid secretion causing GI upset to the more threatening bleeding ulcers or holes in the stomach or intestine. Phrase the question to your vet in this particular way: "is there any medical reason my dog may not take Pepcid AC?" If there is no reason, we follow vets who are proactive in protecting the stomach by giving doxies 5MG Pepcid AC (generic name is Famotidine) 30 mins prior to steroid. This directory is what we all use to understand each of our dog's meds: www.marvistavet.com/html/pharmacy_center.html |
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Post by twosmooches on Oct 20, 2013 13:07:56 GMT -7
Kerry Greta is simply gorgeous! Looks like she's very lucky to have you to care for her as well. The first week of disc episode was the worst for me and my little Detour...and then it seemed to reach a plateau. I hope it goes well for both of you! The information on this site saved my dog's life and is helping him get recovered too. The moderators know what's what and will help you so pay attention to them. I am hoping for the best for both of you. By the way, I love what you named your pretty girl...is her full name Greta Garbo?  |
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Post by gretasmom on Oct 20, 2013 20:22:30 GMT -7
Good evening all Just a quick update. Greta seems to be doing much better. She is pooping twice a day with assistance, and is peeing very well. We did notice she moved one of her back legs twice today, she does not seem to be in much distress and her appetite is awesome. The only time she shows any discomfort is when I have to pick her up to take her to her mat, and she doesn't whelp or wriggle or whine, but more grunts .. and only while I'm lifting her. We have kept her on a strict 8 hour schedule for the pain meds, and give her the prednisone exactly twelve hours apart. We are seeing the vet tomorrow, and are going to see if she should remain on full dose yet for another week before her taper off. We had a wonderful weekend, and she is being such a sweet, patient girl in her crate .. she seems to know this is so she can heal completely. She doesn't seem upset or anything, and just looking at her you'd never know anything happened. She will stay in her crate for the full 8 weeks as we want to make sure we do everything we can for her to regain as much painfree mobiity as possible. And yes, her full name is Greta Garbo .. my 'pet' name for her is Garbs. Thank you to everyone! I sure am learning alot here and love the positive energy, thanks again!! <3 |
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Sabrina
Helpful Member
My Charley-dog, a Dodger'sList grad enjoying life!
Posts: 471
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Post by Sabrina on Oct 20, 2013 20:39:21 GMT -7
Hi Kerry, I'm Sabrina. Greta's a beauty! So glad to hear that she seems to be out of pain dose to dose. My dog would grunt sometimes when picked up, too - keep up the good work of observing for any signs of pain. Some dogs are simply masters at hiding it! If you haven't already seen this, here is an illustration of a secure way to lift an IVDD dog:  Hope all goes well at the vet tomorrow! Do remember to ask if there is any health reason that would prevent Greta being on PepcidAC (if there is, ask for whatever stomach protect she's cleared to take). It is soooo much better for all concerned to take measures to prevent GI problems! ))Hugs!(( -Sabrina |
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Post by gretasmom on Oct 20, 2013 20:59:16 GMT -7
Hi Sabrina! We think she's quite the beauty too, thank you . Thank you for the illustration, when I can, this is the way I lift her and it puts me at ease knowing I'm doing it right somewhat. I have rotator cuff tendinopathy and so I actually have to get down in a full low squat,'lock' my bad arm, slowly slip it under her and use my good arm to support her while I lift her out of her crate and to her potty pads. I do move the potty pads very close to her crate so I don't have to lift her very far (I don't even have to go to a standing position I just have to rotate my body slightly) and am actually able to move her fully supported. She can sense when I'm in pain as well and I don't want to distress her further, so I made it as simple and as short a distance as possible for both of us |
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Post by gretasmom on Oct 21, 2013 20:08:38 GMT -7
We spoke with her vet today and our Garbs will continue on the 2.5 mg. of prednisone 2 times a day as well as her pain meds ( tramadol) 3 times a day at 8 hour intevals.
She is progressing very nicely and vet agrees another week before taper down is a good idea. She was able to stand this evening, albeit very wobbly and not for long on her hind legs when I placed her on her potty pads, and she can wag her tail. We are thrilled at her progress and are committed to continuing to be strict with both her meds and the crate rest and other than coming out for potty she has and will stay in there. Much to her dislike I'm sure, we are being determined for her . Just want to say I appreciate this site so much, and thank everyone for the warmest of welcomes and all the input and advice. Love it!! Thanks again! |
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Post by Pauliana on Oct 21, 2013 20:59:00 GMT -7
Hi Kerry, Sounds like Greta's recovery is going in a wonderful direction. You are doing a great job taking care of her! She will pick up on your positive feelings and that is so good for her. Looking forward to her updates on how she is doing! To give you more encouragement, please read some of the Dodgerslist success stories: www.dodgerslist.com/monthstory.htm |
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,549
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Post by PaulaM on Oct 22, 2013 11:03:55 GMT -7
Kerry, keep up the good work on her 100% STRICT crate rest, you are playing such an instrumental roll in her recovery!!! Can you let us know the reason why her stomach is not being protected? Did you vet say there was a health reason why she may not take 5mg of Pepcid AC 30 mins before Pred and thereafter every 12 hours? Greta does not need bleeding ulcers on top of this disc problem. At Dodgers we follow the proactive vets in stomach protection. North Carolina U. recognizes the high incidence of GI irritation in dogs with disc problems. The reasons are that pain and body changes are stresses. Just as humans can experience ulcers when under stress, dogs can also. NCU and 11+ hospitals working with NCU prescribe a GI protectant. Dogs presented to NCU with IVDD often develop GI upset whether they are given steroid medications or not. www.cvm.ncsu.edu/vhc/tc/clinical_services/neuro/acute_disc.html |
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Post by gretasmom on Oct 22, 2013 16:25:03 GMT -7
Hi there! Sorry Paula, I was in a rush trying to type before bed last night. She is on 5 mg. of pepcid ac, as of yesterday . I asked her vet in the manner suggested here, and got a favourable result . We absolutely know now that she has bowel and bladder control as well we are so proud of her, she is improving by the hour ... it will be a long 6 to 7 more weeks, especially for her, but we are determined for her. Thanks again everyone! |
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,549
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Post by PaulaM on Oct 23, 2013 9:42:10 GMT -7
Kudos to you Kerry, for advocating and getting the stomach protected with Pepcid AC!! Good job.
Graduation day will come before you know it.... Dec 8.
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Post by gretasmom on Oct 26, 2013 22:02:45 GMT -7
Thanks Paula, Pauliana and everyone. Just a quick update. We are amazed at how quickly Greta has progressed. We had requested her taper to be held off another week and we are glad we made that decision. She is improving leaps and bounds and we will be watching her over the next couple of days to decide whether we can start her tapering down of the prednizone this week. She has not appeared to be in any sort of pain for the last couple of days, not even when we pick her up to take her to her potty area or even just after eating. I would like to hold off until Thursday as that is when I am on days off so I can monitor her closely to be sure she is indeed ready. She has complete bowel and bladder control, can now stand and is able to wobbly walk with both hind legs. Her left is stronger than her right, but even her right has come such a long way to where she is walking on it. And this is only on her potty pad and only as long as it takes for her to go potty. She's doing wonderfully and if anyone has any doubts about the srict crate rest, I would say put the doubts to rest .. it is necessary and it provides the best environment for healing ever. I cannot say enough how much I have learned from this awesome site and the interaction has been a godsend. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Greta will remain on strict crate rest until her graduation day as Paula identified as Dec. 8th. She has her moments where sometimes she doesn't like it much but overall she is ok with it. I would like to know that should she become too rambunxcious (spelling??) is there anything natural or herbal I can give her that would soothe her especially while I'm at work once she is tapered and off all her meds. Its so nice to see our little girl back to her normal, happy, alert and inquisitive self. We are so proud of her. We are simply expressing gratitude and thankfulness because we do know that sadly setbacks can and do happen as I've read on here and we sure don't want to tempt the healing gods to prove us wrong. I have learned a long time ago to never say 'bring it on' or 'what else is in store' .. nope not going there. hahaha. Just grateful we are where we are with her today. Thanks again!! |
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,549
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Post by PaulaM on Oct 27, 2013 9:28:38 GMT -7
Kerry, thank you so much for your kind words. We are all volunteers at out keyboards and your feedback makes our day and our work so rewarding to know we have helped Greta. Please give yourself a great big pat on the back…as you have read, absorbed, applied information to be able to adovated and discuss things with your vet. You really have become an integral part of Greta's care and intrumental in her being able to heal. Greta is on a roll and certainly going in the right direction of healing! Using any oral calmer in combination with a Pheromone diffuser seems to work best for calming. It takes several days for these to start working - it isn't immediate but they are a much better option if you can avoid heavy duty prescription sedatives. Of course always keep your vet in the loop on all things you give your dog. Farnum's Comfort Zone with D.A.P. www.petcomfortzone.com/dogs.html [pheromone diffuser] with one oral calmer from below: Oral calmers: 1) ANXITANE® S chewable tabs contain 50 mg L-Theanine, an amino acid that acts neurologically to help keep dogs calm, relaxed www.virbacvet.com/products/detail/anxitane-l-theanine-chewable-tablets/behavioral-health 2) Composure Soft Chews are colostrum based like calming mother's milk and contain 21 mg of L-Theanine. www.vetriscience.com/composure-soft-dogs-MD-LD.php 3) Rescue Remedy is a liquid herb combo to help with relaxation www.bachrescueremedypet.com Plain Benadryl (Diphenhydramine) with no additional medications added. Buy at your grocery store or pharmacy. Get the dosage from your vet. The wrong dose can have dangerous side effects, so your vet needs to prescribe the proper amount for your dog. Other brands may be available in your area… just shop by the active ingredient(s) on the label. We'd like all members to tell their vet about this Forum and share how Dodgerslist has helped you care for your dog. Just ask Linda for some free literature. Our brochure for your vet would make an excellent addition to his toolbox for educating future clients. Don't leave the house w/o the small cards… you never know when you meet an owner of breeds prone to disc disease (Dachshunds, Beagles, Poodles, Spaniels, Shih Tzus, Pekingese, and Chihuahuas are most affected) order here: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/litorder.htm I also highly recommend adding this comprehensive "must-have" $3 DVD on IVDD to your arsenal of educational resources. Friends, family and those who will be caring for your dog should also watch this DVD; plus don't forget to order one DVD for your vet www.dodgerslist.com/literature/litorder.htmKeep us posted on the upcoming taper. We hope to hear all the swelling/pain is really gone with the test taper. |
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Post by gretasmom on Nov 5, 2013 18:32:08 GMT -7
Hi all,
Just a quick update. Greta is doing wonderfully! She is 3/4 of the way through her taper off of prednisone and is having no difficulty at all. She hasn't had pain meds in over a week. She is almost back to normal ... she can walk with only an occassional 'wobble' now and is getting better every day. She only gets out of her crate to go potty but each time there is more and more improvement. It will be a long few more weeks, but we're determined not to let her 'puppy eyes' get the best of us so that we let her out of her crate more than we ought to. It's the hardest thing I've done in a long time, but I know we are 'working toward a goal' so I am staying focused for her. I spend alot of time on my belly on the floor with my head in her wire crate with her doing cheek rubs so she doesn't feel 'deprived' of one on one time. When I lay on the couch to watch t.v. I move her crate to be next to me. She's doing so well, it is hard to believe that 3 weeks ago she was totally parayzed in both back legs. We are pretty proud of our sweet red-haired spunky girl who even though is annoyed at having to convalesce in her crate, we are convinced that she 'gets it' somehow and doesn't push her luck too much. Thanks much to everyone, and we are humbly grateful that her episode has gone in the direction it has.
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Post by Pauliana on Nov 5, 2013 21:50:15 GMT -7
Kerry,
What a wonderful update! I am so glad Greta is making such a wonderful recovery.. She is benefiting from your positive strength and excellent care. Deep down, she knows you are doing it all for her..Great news that she is pain free during her Prednisone taper!!
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Marjorie
Moderator~
Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,724
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Post by Marjorie on Nov 6, 2013 5:08:04 GMT -7
Wonderful update, Kerry! I'm so pleased that Greta is doing so well. You've done a great job with her and it shows! Keep up the good work. |
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Post by Jean & Mimi on Nov 6, 2013 7:09:34 GMT -7
So happy for you!!! That's awesome news that she is doing so well and that the taper is working perfectly. She's such a beauty, I bet she gives great "puppy eyes".
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I will read the articles you've given. Sure is a big learning curve but we're determined. She does seem to have some pain when I pick her up to to take her to her potty mat or I move her because she arches her head and grunts. Her tummy does seem somewhat tight at times, but not all the time. She is not reluctant nor slow to move her head or her body when she's laying in her crate and will often try to look behind her (she's a nosey little girl) .. she hasn't seemed reluctant to do that from the beginning. I do not believe there is any feeling in at least one of her legs, as the vet did test her and said her right leg was unresponsive to the prick test, but there was some feeling still in the left. She is on 
