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Post by Steve & Jazmine on Dec 12, 2019 16:02:01 GMT -7
Jazmin Daschund Conservative Treatment Hello group, My sweet girl Jazmine had surgery on her back in May on her L-2 and L-3 (Mt. Pleasant, SC). They decompressed her spinal cord and she made a full recovery. This surgery was very expensive and hard for me to do, but I had to give my girl a chance. Within a month she was able to walk with a great deal of patience, therapy, and puppy massages. She has the best mattress and I never let her jump or horseplay. Last Tuesday morning 12/3 Jazmine came out of her crate in the morning stiff looking. She then walked into the bathroom like normal to use her pee pad...but just stood there and shook. She then popped and cried a smidge, as my heart hit the floor. I immediately scooped her up and got her back in her crate for rest and gave her a dose of her previous [?] medications. I called her doctor and she recommended exactly what I had done. When I got home from work 8 hours later, Jazmine could no longer walk on her own. Her back legs were down and she was in some discomfort. I know she didn't jump and we had taken a walk to exercise the day before. I am COMPLETELY devastated!!! I cannot afford to get Jazmine surgery again and am asking for any advice someone may have from previous experience with their Daschund. She is currently on Gabapentin 100mg once 12 hour, Presidone 5mg once 12 hour, and Methocarbamol 500mg once 12 hour and has been confined to her crate for 24/7 rest. All prayers are appreciated!!! [Moderator's Note. Please do not edit
15lbs
prednisone as of date?: 5mgs 2x/day for 14 days, then test taper for pain
gabapentin 100 mgs 2x/day
methocarbamol 500mgs 2x/day
needs GI tract protector, Pepcid AC, on board w/ prednisone! ]UPDATE 12/11: Well it's now been 8 days since my baby lost her ability to walk again. Her spirits are still good and we have been following her regiment of medicine and strict crate rest. She can now wag her tail again, but still not having control over pee and poop. Not much progress with her legs either. Having a disheartening kinda day...I can't pray any harder for my girl!!! |
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PaulaM
Moderator. 
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,541
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Post by PaulaM on Dec 12, 2019 18:54:20 GMT -7
Steve, welcome to the Dodgerslist Care and Support Forum! What good news that Jazimine can do a happy tail wag for you. That bodes well for her body to be able to self repair more nerve damage with time! So no reason to be disheartened. It is education about disc disease that takes away much of the fear of the unknown. Puts you in position to know what therapies are in order, at what time and how long to expect each of the phases of healing. This page is a wonderful overview of the healing process and leads you to the full articles so you are an in-the-know IVDD savvy pet parent! Here's the link to bookmark and come back over the next days: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingpage.htmKudos to you for immediately crating her upon seeing signs of a disc episode on Dec 3. Keep on keeping on doing the 100% STRICT crate rest 24/7 only out of her recovery suite for a very, very few footsteps at potty time for the full 8 weeks. The rest part is the single most important care as it is the therapy to allow her disc to heal by forming good secure scar tissue. How you doing on expressing her bladder? For poop? ---Does she stay dry session to session? ' ---How often do you express for urine? Please check the methocarbamol bottle. A full 500mg tablet 2x/day would be a VERY high dose! Would you also fill in some valuable missing information about the medications? -- How much does Jazmine weigh?
-- Are the current medications fully covering pain round the clock, dose to dose? SIGNS OF PAIN:
◻︎ shivering-trembling ◻︎ yelping when picked up or moved ◻︎ slow to move ◻︎ tight tense tummy ◻︎ arched back, ears pinned back ◻︎ head held high or nose to the ground. ◻︎ restless, can't find a comfortable position ◻︎ slow or reluctant to move much in crate such as shift positions ◻︎ looks up with just eyes and does not move head and neck easily. ◻︎ not eating due to painful chewing or in too much overall pain ◻︎ holds front or back leg flamingo style not wanting to bear weight ◻︎ not their normal perky selves -- What date did prednisone start?
--- For how many days did she stay on prednisone 5mgs 2x/day dose?
-- Is Pepcid AC on board? Any time prednisone is being used the extra acids it causes need to be suppressed to avoid serious GI tract damage that can lead to bleeding ulcers.
Proactive vets don’t wait til there is lip licking of nausea, not eating, vomit, diarrhea leading to serious bleeding ulcers, red or black blood in stool due to the extra stomach acids anti-inflammatory drugs cause. The usual dose of Pepcid AC (famotidine) with a disc episode is 0.44mg mg per pound every 12 hours. Pepcid AC has a very limited potential for side effects. Ask if your dog has any health issues to prevent use of Pepcid AC (famotidine)? (doesn’t need it, we wait til there is problem…are NOT answers to your question!) If you get a “no health” issues answer, then go to the grocery store to purchase over the counter Pepcid AC containing one single active ingredient (famotidine). HEALTH ISSUES: “Mar Vista Vet reports: Pepcid AC has a very limited potential for side effects, the reason of release to over-the-counter status. The dose of famotidine may require reduction in patients with liver or kidney disease as these diseases tend to prolong drug activities. There have been some reports of exacerbating heart rhythm problems in patients who already have heart rhythm problems so it may be prudent to choose another means of stomach acid control in heart patients.” marvistavet.com/famotidine.pml |
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Post by Steve & Jazmine on Dec 20, 2019 13:00:12 GMT -7
Jazmine is 15 pounds and she lost control of her back legs on Tuesday December 3rd. She is part mini and part full size Doxie. She took 1/2 of a Presidone tablet twice a day for the first two weeks and just started to take 1/4 of a tablet twice a day till they are gone. She is still taking the Gabepentin (few more pills left) and is done with the methocarbonal. [Moderator's Note. Please do not edit 15 lbs prednisone as of date?: 5mgs 2x/day for 14 days, then a test taper to reveal any: _pain / _neuro gabapetin 100 mgs ?x/day methocarbamol 500mgs ?? mgs 2x/day needs GI tract protector, Pepcid AC, on board w/Prednisone! ] She went back to the vet yesterday for a checkup and to begin cold laser therapy. I am trying to get her in twice a week for that at lest in the beginning and then once (financial). She is wagging her tail much better now, can still pee and poop-but not under her control yet, and seems like one of her back legs is stronger-while the other is limp. She is still in good spirits and loving as ever. Should I massage her legs and feet? Any other advice? She goes back Monday the 23rd for the second cold laser. |
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,541
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Post by PaulaM on Dec 20, 2019 13:57:28 GMT -7
Steve, I'm sorry we lost touch with you after your post back on Dec 12. Truly the very best care you can give now is keeping her at home, limited vet visits ONLY to the most necessary. Laser therapy is not necessary if she is wagging her tail after happy talk and can move one of her back legs. Limitation of movement of the spine/back is top priority in protection of the cord and the early healing disc. Whenever possible attend to things with the vet by phone to eliminate risk of too much movement in transports. I do not understand the prednisone treatment at all. This is how prednisone used with a disc epiaode. --- Upon the end of the 14-day pred course, the taper, which Jazmine is in now, is to determine if all pain is really gone or if there is any new neuro issues. Pain or new neuro issues would indiate the need for another course of pred. --- Pain meds are stopped or backed off so that you at home will have a clear picture if any existing unmasked pain would surface. Why are pain meds still on board? --- During the time prednsone is on board it is a serious matter ot protect the GI tract from the extra acids pred causes. --- That was the summary. PLEASE, please read the f ull information so you are in the know and best able to work with your vet if things do not seem right. Link to read: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingsweling.htmPLEASE double check the methocarbamol bottle. A 500 mg dose for a 15 pound doxie is dangerouly high.Tell us more about her pee not being under control.
-- Is it while on pred she has to pee more and you are not letting out soon enough. Or is it she leaks on you when lifted (loss of bladder control? What about her pain? Do you currently observe any hint of pain nearing the next dose, when she has to move?
SIGNS OF PAIN: ◻︎ shivering-trembling ◻︎ yelping when picked up or moved ◻︎ slow to move ◻︎ tight tense tummy ◻︎ arched back, ears pinned back ◻︎ head held high or nose to the ground. ◻︎ restless, can't find a comfortable position ◻︎ slow or reluctant to move much in crate such as shift positions ◻︎ looks up with just eyes and does not move head and neck easily. ◻︎ not eating due to painful chewing or in too much overall pain ◻︎ holds front or back leg flamingo style not wanting to bear weight ◻︎ not their normal perky selves Leg function -- Which back leg can she move. What do you observe? can use it to scratch? can use it to reposition herself in the crate? or ...? When there is proof all pain is actually gone and she is off all meds, then, only then is it safe for us to explain how to do range of motion and massage. That is the reason to not dink around with the test pred taper by still having pain meds on board. You are blind folded by the pain meds and do not know if she may need another course of pred or if going to the taoer conclusion is the correct thing to do. |
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Post by Romy & Frankie on Dec 20, 2019 14:20:43 GMT -7
Once Jazmine is off all meds and if no pain is seen you can do a very, very light range of motion and massage to her legs. We have some information about this on the page below. The exercises in pink are for paralyzed dogs on conservative treatment. www.dodgerslist.com/literature/massagepassiveexercises.htmIs the Pepcid AC on board yet? Any time a dog is on an anti-inflammatory they are risk for stomach damage caused by excess stomach acid. Our IVDD dogs are going through a lot, and we do not want to add stomach problems. Laser treatment can jump start nerve healing but transporting an IVDD dog is always a risk for too much movement of the back. Sometimes vets will come to the home to give these treatments.
When a dog is paralyzed they often do not have control of the bladder and cannot fully empty it without help. If you are finding wet bedding and the dog leaks on you when lifted the bladder is overflowing. So in this case Jazmine is not really peeing, the bladder is so full of urine that overflow occurs. When stale urine stays in the bladder because the dog cannot empty it there is a real risk of UTI's. To avoid this we must express our dog's bladder. Expressing is a matter of physics. We put pressure on the bladder greater than the strength of the urinary sphincter to push the urine out. Expressing is a skill and must be learned and practiced. You can start learning by reviewing the link below and then asking the vet for a hands on lesson. Once you can express Jazmine successfully the risk of a UTI's is much lower.
You can also express for poop. Although there is no health issue to not expressing poop, dogs are not happy to find poop in their beds and the cleanup for the pet parent is time-consuming. The link blow leads to information and a video about expressing for poop: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/Expressing.htm#poop |
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Post by Steve & Jazmine on Dec 28, 2019 14:46:49 GMT -7
Good afternoon,
Thank you for helping me out with your advice and prayers for my girl. I appreciate it more than you will ever know. Jazmine is still in good spirits, but definitely getting sick of being isolated in her crate. She is still eating and drinking water as normal. She is also tapered down to the last few pieces of her 1/4 Presidone pills. She has two cold laser treatments on 12.19 and 12/23, each time she seemed to show improvement. She goes next on 12/30 for her next cold laser.
To answer your questions...
1. Jazmine does not express herself on me if I pick her up. I have tried to take her out to the pee pad that her sister uses and nothing. She will go pee and poop in her crate, usually after eating. She does not like having it in her crate and will move the pee pad out of the way or shove the poop out of the cage. I have tried to express her several times, but must not be getting it right still. I feel she has some control over it, just not currently when either of us want.
2. I have seen no obvious signs of Jazmine being in any pain. I have looked your list over and really don't see them. Although, she is not a dog that whines or cries, even if in pain.
3. Jazmine is able to roll herself on her side with and push off with her back right leg (looking at her from face). She definitely has feeling in that foot as well. I swear I have seen her try to stand a bit with it as well. Her back left leg (looking at her from the front) is much weaker. I think she has got some feeling back in that foot however. It feels to me she also got a bit of muscle structure back in her back end. She can also wag her tail much better now.
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Post by Romy & Frankie on Dec 28, 2019 15:10:03 GMT -7
Expressing can be tricky to learn but it is important that we pet parents learn to help our dogs empty their bladders. If stale urine stays in the bladder there is a high risk of UTI's. If you are having trouble, ask your vet for a hands-on lesson. I needed several of these before I was able to successfully empty my dog's bladder.
One thing that makes expressing so tricky is that the bladder moves around. When the bladder is really full, you will not discern a shape, just a firm stomach which is the bladder. As the bladder empties, it may feel like a small plum. When empty, it goes flat. As the bladder empties and gets smaller, it will move around, so it will not always be in the same position in the body. You will need to feel for it. You'll probably find it's moved farther back into the hip area. Please keep trying to express her until bladder control returns. With practice, you will be able to do it and the risk of a UTI will be lowered.
If you think she is now starting to get bladder control back, keep trying her on the pee pad with her sister's urine or another former pee spot. If she can wag her tail, the next step in the healing process is usually the return of bladder and bowel control.
It is common for one leg to be weaker than the other during recovery. Pushing off with her foot and trying to stand are good signs that healing is taking place. |
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Post by Steve & Jazmine on Dec 28, 2019 15:52:53 GMT -7
Thank you! This has been a place of hope and excellent knowledge for me. I will ask the vet again, but even she had trouble with finding Jazmine's bladder. I give her a little spoon of honey every few days as well to help keep infections down, plus it's a tasty treat for her. I am seeing good signs, just trying not to get my hopes up to much. This Tuesday the 31st will be 4 weeks exactly. I know it's all about patience and i should be happy with this much progress at 4 weeks : )
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Post by Steve & Jazmine on Jan 10, 2020 9:51:55 GMT -7
Jazmine has now been off all her medications for about two weeks (since waned from the Presidone) and is still on crate rest. This all started on December 3rd. She is showing much progress, including her back legs getting stronger, standing when I feed her, and she can clumsily walk a bit when I put on her pee pad, she also is also now inconstantly peeing and pooing on the pee pad (by herself) as I have been working with her. She has received 4 cold laser treatments and has number 5 scheduled for this afternoon.
When now is it ok to start working her legs, practice her walking with the padded knee rehab sling under her belly,....basically what should I be doing with her at this point to keep her making progress and recovering the best I can?
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,541
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Post by PaulaM on Jan 10, 2020 11:31:52 GMT -7
Steve, wonderful to hear the test taper of prednisone proved that all painful swelling had been resolved. Since you now have noted that Jazmine CAN take some wobbly footsteps (flexing her joints, using her muscles) by herself, there is no need for you to do the very light range of motion that paralyzed legs need when off all meds and proven no pain exists. Very wonderful that Jazmine is going in the right path of healing her nerves (can now take some footsteps) and no pain. And I think you are saying she now has bladder control— peeing (brain directed) when put on a pee pad for potty time. That is she is no longer leaking on you when lifted and you are not finding urine leaks in her bedding... right? So with such good nerve improvement, you want to ensure there will be no set backs to the early healing disc via too much movement. At potty time use a sling to keep her back from twisting if she were to fall on her butt. Limit the number of footsteps on the pee pad to the minimal— all in an effort to not disturb the scar tissue that is trying to form on the exterior of the disc. Any time out of the recovery suite, in addition to a sling, a front harness and leash controls speed and trying to dart off. Keeps movement to the very slow minimal footsteps at potty time. Alternative is to fence in the pee pad then all you need is a sling to keep her butt from falling over. The time for safe-for-the disc PT to begin will be on graduation day of 8 weeks since the disc episode started. Mark your calendar for Jan 28! Keep us posted on how the potty thing is going. Nearing graduation day, please be sure to stop in so we can give you suggestion on how to handle a very gradual introduction back to physical exercise plus much more to live many happy years ahead with your IVDD Jazmine! Until graduation day keep on keeping with the 100% STRICT crate rest 24/7 only out for a very, very few footsteps at potty time so that the disc will heal properly. |
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?? mgs 2x/day 
