|
Post by Leah & Stella on Mar 2, 2019 15:44:28 GMT -7
[Original Subject Scared Doxie Mom. Please help] Hello all. I am new. I am not sure if this is where I am supposed to introduce my dog but I cannot seem to find out where else to do it so here goes. I have a six year old female miniature dachund. She is a long-haired black and tan. Her name is Stella and she weighs around 14 pounds. Late Thursday night I noticed that she was limping. I couldn’t tell which leg or where her pain was at that time. [EMERGENCY!!!!-->] As of today she is not moving her back end at all. She is just dragging it! It seems she went downhill very quickly! My local vet gave her some pain medication
[Moderator's Note. Please do not edit 14 lbs Carprofen 100 mgs tag as of 3/2: 25mgs 1x/day for 16 days? then stop to test for pain/neuro name of each pain med as of 2/28??: ?mgs each dose how often given? no Pepcid AC (famotidine) stomach protection on board!!!]
but thinks I need to get her to a small animal vet on Monday. She’s assuming that it’s a slipped disc. At least that’s what she said. But she is primarily large animals so she admittedly isn’t sure. She told me to pinch her back feet hard and that if she pulled them back we were OK but if she didn’t then we were in trouble. I did that pinch test and she did pull back very slightly with both feet. I guess I’m not sure what that means. Not sure what all of this means. I am very scared. I know this is a common issue for Doxies . We have had four and she is the first one to experience any problems with this. I would appreciate anybody’s help, feedback or whatever you can provide! Thank you so much 🙏
|
|
|
Post by Romy & Frankie on Mar 2, 2019 16:24:23 GMT -7
Welcome to Dodgerslist. Everyone here has a dog with IVDD so you have come to the right place. We’ve got valuable information we’ve gleaned from the vets Dodgerslist consults with and our own experiences with IVDD since 2002 to share with you! It is important to know that disc disease is not a death sentence! Struggling with quality of life questions for your dog? Re-think things: www.dodgerslist.com/index/SDUNCANquality.htmThe most important thing you can do for Stella now is to start Strict crate rest right away. The hallmark component of conservative treatment is the very STRICT crate rest part (no PT, little movement). With little blood supply discs are much slower to form good scar tissue than it takes a blood rich broken bone to heal. Those weeks of a cast for a broken arm to heal is similar to the recovery suite being a kind of cast for the disc. 100% STRICT crate rest 24/7 for 8 weeks provides limited movement to allow good strong scar tissue to form. Super tried and true tips for setting up the recovery suite, the mattress and more! —> www.dodgerslist.com/literature/CrateRRP.htmSTRICT means: ◼︎no laps ◼︎no couches ◼︎no baths ◼︎no sleeping with you ◼︎no chiro therapy whys: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/chiropractic.htm ◼︎no dragging or meandering at potty times. ◼︎no PT for conservative dogs during 8 weeks to heal disc ◼︎At home laser or acupuncture for severe neuro damage is best. Transports are always a risk to the disc of too much movement. Vet visits must be weighed risk vs. benefit for dogs with little to mild neuro diminishment. The other important part of the Conservative treatment for IVDD is an anti-inflammatory. The pain and neuro diminishment, such as problems walking, of IVDD is caused by swelling in the spinal cord. The swelling in the spinal cord is treated by anti-inflammatories. When you bring Stella to the vet speak to him about an anti-inflammatory for Stella. It will help us work together with you and avoid offering ideas that could cause harm or lead the discussion in the wrong direction delaying help for your dog — please share a bit more detail with us: Is your name Leah? I am Romy and my boy is Frankie. Is Stella currently showing signs of pain? ☐shivering, trembling ☐yelping when picked up or moved ☐reluctant to move much in crate such as shift positions or slow to move ☐tight tense tummy ☐can’t find a comfortable position ☐Arched back ☐ Holding front or back leg flamingo style not wanting to bear weight ☐head held high or nose to the ground ☐Not their normal perky selves? Full pain relief is expected in 1 hour and stays that way between doses. If not in control your vet needs to know right away to adjust meds. Please list the exact names of meds currently given, their doses in mgs and times per day given. A dog with IVDD is likely to produce excess stomach acid. This is especially true for dogs on an anti-inflammatory. To prevent the excess stomach acid from causing serious stomach damage Pepcid AC can be used. Ask the vet if Stella has any health issues to prevent use of Pepcid AC (famotidine)? (doesn’t need it, we wait til there is problem…are NOT answers to your question!) If you get a “no health” issues answer, then go to the grocery store to purchase over the counter Pepcid AC containing one single active ingredient (famotidine). canigivemydog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/can-i-give-my-dog-pepcid-ac-300x300.jpg Doxie weight dogs: 5mg Pepcid AC (famotidine) every 12 hours. NOTE: Pepcid AC (famotidine) for dogs is 0.44mg per pound, 30 mins before the anti-inflammatory and thereafter every 12 hours for as long as your dog is on the anti-inflammatory. www.1800petmeds.com/Famotidine-prod11171.html Is Stella showing any signs of GI Tract problems? —Eating and drinking OK? No nausea/not eating, no vomit? —Poops OK? Normal firmness & color -no dark black or bright red blood indicating bleeding ulcers? No diarrhea? Can she specifically sniff and squat and then release urine which is bladder control – OR- do you find wet bedding or leaks on you when lifted which are indication of an overflowing bladder and loss of bladder control? Overflowing bladders need to be expressed to avoid UTIs. Review video then get a hands-on-top-of-your-hands expressing lesson. www.dodgerslist.com/literature/Expressing.htmIf she can sniff and pee which means she has bladder control, carry her to and from the recovery suite to the potty place and then allow a very few limited footsteps. Using a sling (long winter scarf, ace bandage, belt) will save your back and help to keep a wobbly dog’s back aligned and butt from tipping over. A harness and 6 foot leash is to control speed and keep footsteps to minimum as you stand in one spot. An ex-pen in the grass is an excellent alternative to minimizing footsteps with the physical and visual to indicate there will be no sniff festing going on! www.dodgerslist.com/literature/slingwalk.jpg Can Stella wag her tail when you specifically do some happy talk? The vet that asked you to pinch her toes is trying to determine if Stella has Deep Pain Sensation (DPS). DPS is the last neuro function to be lost and is a critical indicator for nerves to be able to self repair. It is very hard to determine if a dog has DPS. Only a specialist is able to reliably determine this. Pinching her toes will not tell if she has DPS and can cause too much movement of the spine. Knowledge is the power to fight the IVDD enemy and win!! The very best thing you can do for YOU, the caregiver, and for your dog is to get up to speed on IVDD soonest possible. Begin absorbing the must-have overall sense of meds, care and how the treatment works. Your dog will be depending on your ability to learn - excellent video series here: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/theater.htm --PRINT OUT this link and tape to your fridge: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingpage.htm --use the printout as your roadmap to avoid dangerous detours in your dog’s care --make notes/highlight to keep yourself on track --follow all the links in the next days to become the IVDD savvy pet parent your dog needs. Use the “search box” to easily locate topics over at our Main www.Dodgerslist.com website: www.dodgerslist.com/index/searchBOX.jpg
|
|
|
Post by Leah & Stella on Mar 2, 2019 19:05:09 GMT -7
Thank you so much for all of this wonderful information. I am already printing articles to read and I made a sling and it worked ok. I live in central ND and it is -20 windchills here tonight so we Literally take two steps onto the deck and that’s as far as we go. When the weather is a little warmer we will be able to practice with it more. I have a couple of questions for you. First regarding the crate therapy. We’ve had her in a very small dog bed all day. She fits in it just perfectly and she has not moved a muscle [PAIN!!!]. Other than lifting her head up to take a treat that is. So is it OK when we are home to let her lie in her bed and be with us as long as she’s not moving? I am afraid the crate might get her more worked up and cause more movement? Especially when She knows we are home and can see us. Secondly, is it hard to find a vet who is willing to try the conservative therapy approach? Do I need to ask about it before I take her? Will I need to shop around to find one that’s willing to do that with her? Or are most companion animal vets familiar with this therapy and willing to give it a try? Thank you again. I am so happy I found you!
|
|
PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,544
|
Post by PaulaM on Mar 2, 2019 19:08:17 GMT -7
What are the names of the meds she is now taking.... dose in mgs? how often do you give.
She is in pain!!!
|
|
|
Post by Leah & Stella on Mar 2, 2019 19:15:15 GMT -7
My local vet started her on 100mg of Carprofen but she has referred me to a CA [?] vet in Bismarck. She has an appointment first thing Monday morning. We are having a winter storm through tomorrow and I don’t know if we could even get to Bismarck before then 😳. I will take any advice and do whatever I need to make sure she is ok until then!! I am so sick about this. We are doing all we can for her right now. I wondered about a heat pad. I read heat therapy is good.
Carprofen is 12-24 hours as needed for pain.
|
|
PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,544
|
Post by PaulaM on Mar 2, 2019 19:23:09 GMT -7
The details are important in our being able to comment properly. Please correct what we have of the med list so far: 14 lbs Carprofen 100 mgs tab as of 2/28: ?mgs ?x/day f or how many days? then stop to test for pain/neuro name of each pain med as of 2/28??: ?mgs each dose how often given?
With Carprofen, Pepcid AC NEEDS to be on board. Do you have Pepcid AC (famtodine) in the house? Check the carprofen bottle. What size in mgs is each tab? Do you give part of a tab as a dose..what a half, a quarter. Details please! Carprofen IS the anti-inflammatory drug. It is NOT a pain reliever, it can take 7-30 days for all the painful swelling to be resolved by carprofen. In my book that is no pain reliever. #1 It is ESSENTIAL to be inside some sort of recovery suite. When she is out of her pain, then she may move too much. Dogs do things in a blink of an eye. You can't afford to have her further damage her spinal cord because she was not in a recovery suite (wire crate, ex-pen, baby's Pac N Play, baby crib are some examples. Getting up to speed on IVDD is Stella's best chance. You then are in position to coach the vet, make sure Stella is getting what she needs. Conservative treatment is not rocket science. But if a vet is not familiar, then they need YOU to b ring to the table how to do it. PLEASE, please get up to speed quickest. There is really no better education on each part of conservative treatment including the 4 phases of healing than this page. You will find a quick overall summary + links to give you the in-depth knowledge that an IVDD pet savvy parent demands. www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingpage.htmNo heating pads for a dog with parlayzed legs. They can't feel, the heat can burn them as they don't know to move when too warm. This is the Carprofen (AKA brand name Rimadyl) manufacturer's info sheet. NSAID product labels No heating pads for a dog with parlayzed legs. They can't feel, the heat can burn them as they don't know to move when too warm. This is the Carprofen (AKA brand name Rimadyl) manufacturer's info sheet. NSAID product labels animaldrugsatfda.fda.gov/adafda/views/#/nsaidLabelsRimadyl (Carprofen) DOSAGE and ADMINISTRAION: Always provide Client Information Sheet with prescription. Carefully consider the potential benefits and risk of Rimadyl and other treatment options before deciding to use Rimadyl. Use the lowest effective dose for the shortest duration consistent with individual response. The recommended dosage for oral administration to dogs is 2 mg/lb (4.4 mg/kg) of body weight daily. You SHOULD NOT be giving 100mgs of carprofen to a 14lbs dog. PLEASE, PLEASE check the carprofen container and verify the correct dose the vet wants you to give You SHOULD NOT be giving 100mgs of carprofen to a 14lbs dog. PLEASE, PLEASE check the carprofen container and verify the correct dose the vet wants you to give
|
|
|
Post by Leah & Stella on Mar 2, 2019 19:35:16 GMT -7
Here is what the tag says
Carprofen 100mg “Give 1/4 tab by mouth every 12-24 hours as needed for pain”
Pills have been quartered. She’s had one dose and there are 15 left. [25mgs 1x/day means 16-day course of carprofen] She did not until today started the med. She just seemed to have a bit of a limp yesterday. My husband was with her all day and she got progressively worse today. She was still walking w a limp only as of 6am when I left for work. This vet is young and more large animal specialized. She is in the middle of opening a new clinic (her first). She did not have steroids on hand. But right now with this weather she is my only option as she is right here in town.
I’m assuming she is getting 25. The pills are quartered but I will check with her right now
Yes 25mg per dose
|
|
PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,544
|
Post by PaulaM on Mar 2, 2019 19:42:01 GMT -7
Whew...ok then. Carprofen 100mgs divided by 4 = 25mgs 1x/day. That is inline with the manufacturer's recommended dose...well close enough 14lbs x2mgs carprofen= 28mgs of carprofen.
Giving carprofen at 25 mg twice a day would be very high in greatly increase the chance of GI Tract damage AND not necessary for a disc episode. The usual we see vets all the time using is what the manufacuter recommends.
Do you have Pepcid AC (famtodine) in the house? Do you have any other type of acid suppressor...exact name, please. Carprofen causes extra stomach acids. Quickly things can go from not eating. vomit, diarhea, blood in poop, deadly perfoated stomach lining.
What are the names of the pain meds you mentioned. dose in mgs how often given?
|
|
|
Post by Leah & Stella on Mar 2, 2019 19:50:04 GMT -7
I have 2 - 20 mg tablets of Famotidine. And no other meds were given to her but the Carprofen. I think it’s all she had on hand until she is more organized. There is another vet in town that is not practicing but he usually has various meds on hand. What should I ask him for? I could run over there tonight if he’s home.
|
|
PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,544
|
Post by PaulaM on Mar 2, 2019 19:57:18 GMT -7
5mg Pepcid AC (famotidine) every 12 hours. NOTE: Pepcid AC (famotidine) for dogs is 0.44mg per pound, 30 mins before the anti-inflammatory and thereafter every 12 hours for as long as your dog is on the anti-inflammatory. www.1800petmeds.com/Famotidine-prod11171.htmlThe usual in pain relievers for a disc episode are three. Given every 8 hrs. Each covers a different source of pain that a disc episode causes:--Tramadol as the general analgesic --gabapentin for nerve pain --methocarbamol for muscle contraction pain. NOTE: diazepam might work. For some dogs it does not. Methocarbamol is the best if he has it. You can work with your local vet, bring ideas to the table and advocate for things.. She Rx'd carprofen What kind of vet in Bismark....a neuro or ortho surgeon. Is surgery an option for your family? Read conservative vs. surery so you are in the know and able to understand what you are being told and make decisions. Education is vital to you being able to care for Stelll and work with vets. Here is the link you would have eventually come to on that Conservative Summary page link I recommended. --- surgery vs. conservative: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingsurgery.htm
|
|
|
Post by Leah & Stella on Mar 2, 2019 19:57:39 GMT -7
Only the Carprofen. And what about the 20 mg tabs of ✙Famotidine?? I have 2 tabs on hand.
Ok. I will quarter these and give her one.
[Moderator's Note. Please do not edit 14 lbs Carprofen 100 mgs tab as of 3/2: 25mgs 1x/day for 16 days then stop to test for pain/neuro ✙famotidine 5mgs 2x/day]
|
|
PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,544
|
Post by PaulaM on Mar 2, 2019 19:59:17 GMT -7
cut the 20 mg famotiine into 4 parts. That would equal 5mgs. Give 5 mg every 12 hours.
Maybe the vet tonight would have some more famotidine or you can get it at the grocery store.
|
|
|
Post by Leah & Stella on Mar 2, 2019 20:09:48 GMT -7
If the surgery costs are what I’ve seen they are online, then no, surgery would not be an option. It would have to be in the $2000 range to even consider. That being said I don’t know that we wouldn’t go to any lengths if we are put in that position. . I can’t imagine having to make a decision like that. I’m having surgery next month that is cheaper than what I’ve seen online for this surgery. Unbelievable! We will take her however we get her as long as she’s not in pain. I lost my 7 year old doxie in September. She had West Nile of all the crazy things. I still start sobbing for her at any given moment if I’m having a bad day. Single worst day of my life to date. I can’t fathom having to go through this again and only 6 months later. My heart is breaking 😢
|
|
PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,544
|
Post by PaulaM on Mar 2, 2019 20:18:43 GMT -7
This is where self educaiton about IVDD is what you need. IVDD is not a death sentence! If surgery is not an option, then conservative treatment is the best option. If at all possible avoid traveling as this can cause more damage to the disc then of course more damage to the spinal cord. If you can work over the phone to avoid tranporting Stella, with your local vets that would be the very best. Stella's best option to heal her disc and do no more damage to the spinal cord is to be inside in the safety of the recovery suite. This is no joke..the recovery suite is Stella's best chance to be able to walk again. How about setting up a potty pad adjacent ot the crate. Use some old urine from her or another dog on the pad. Might provide inspiration and let her know it is ok to pee on the pad. Watch for progressive worsening of neuro function that may need you to express her bladder for her. Bladder control is prooven when a dog can sniff, and then release urine on an old spot. Does not leak on you when lifted. More about expressing if it comes to that..always good to know stuff your vet might not tell you about...knowledge is the power to fight the IVDD enemy! www.dodgerslist.com/literature/Expressing.htm
|
|
|
Post by Leah & Stella on Mar 2, 2019 20:50:52 GMT -7
Paula do you think I need to take her to a vet on Monday tho? Or work with my local vet to make sure she’s on the right meds? I def will be following you guys to the letter.
|
|
Marjorie
Moderator~
Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,724
|
Post by Marjorie on Mar 3, 2019 7:13:43 GMT -7
What type of vet do you have the appt. with on Monday? A neuro surgeon or an orthopedic surgeon? Do they have the initials ACVIM or ACVS after their name?
IF you're considering surgery, then you would need to get Stella to a neuro surgeon ASAP. Possibly you could discuss the fee for the surgery prior to the appt. If surgery is not an option for you and you'll be treating Stella with conservative care, then you need to get her pain under control immediately. IF you can work with the local vets and get the pain meds she needs today (Tramadol, Gabapentin and/or Methocarbamol) and can get her pain completely under control with no sign of pain arising from one dose of pain meds to the next (limping and not wanting to move is how she is currently showing her pain), then there would not be a need to see another vet/specialist. If the current vets are unable to get her pain completely under control, then you would need to transport Stella to a vet with more experience in IVDD. A neurologist can be seen not only for surgery but also for a consult to get the correct meds on board. But do all that you can today to work with local vets to get Stella's pain under control.
If you do have to transport Stella to another vet, please be sure to secure her crate in the car and pad it well with rolled up towels/blankets to prevent her from shifting too much when turning corners or braking.
Do you currently have Stella safely in a recovery suite to protect her spine from further damage? Once you get her pain under control, she'll feel better and want to move more so you need to confine her. Think of the crate (or whatever other type of recovery suite you use) as a cast for the spine.
Please keep us updated. Healing prayers for Stella.
|
|
|
Post by Leah & Stella on Mar 3, 2019 7:24:06 GMT -7
I do. Having trouble w poddy time. I if I wait too long she pees as soon as I pick her up. If I take her too soon she doesn’t go at all. I tried the sling w an ace bandage and I can see how it’s going to work. But it is just so cold here today. Another -27° windchill! She is sleeping soundly now so I will bundle up and get her outside and try to at least walk up the driveway and back with the sling to see if she is able to go. I think once she knows that that is the plan she will get into the routine just fine. I will speak to Andrea about the meds. Assuming she can get them in right now she will definitely order them for me and would like to be on board as much as possible. I have referenced her to this website so that she can do some reading as well. She was a good friend of my daughter’s and so I am lucky to have a pretty close relationship with her. But again she is very large animal centric.
|
|
Marjorie
Moderator~
Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,724
|
Post by Marjorie on Mar 3, 2019 7:40:20 GMT -7
Walking with a sling up and down a driveway would be too much movement for Stella's spine, Leah. Her steps during potty time must be kept to a very, very few. Use a harness and 6' leash and stand in one spot. Carry her out to potty, only allow a very few steps to do her business and pick her up and carry her back to her crate. Or try to train her to use a pee pad as Paula mentioned that can be placed right outside of her crate. If she doesn't go when you try, then try again in an hour. How often are you taking her out of the crate to potty? If you're taking her out within a reasonable time and she's leaking when you pick her up, that may be an indication that she's losing bladder control and her bladder is overflowing. She should be able to hold her urine until you take her out unless she's not being taken out often enough. If she's not able to release urine on her own when given an opportunity to potty, then you'll need to express her bladder. Don't press under her belly when you lift her up or when you support her hind end to potty when you test to see if she has bladder control. This is our page on expressing for information if you need it though you should get a hands-on-your-hands demonstration on how to express: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/Expressing.htm
|
|
PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,544
|
Post by PaulaM on Mar 3, 2019 8:14:44 GMT -7
Leah, waiting to hear your answers to the questions Marjorie asked in post above. What Marjorie is emphasizing in the above post re: potty time is do everything you can to limit movement to the very, very fewest of FOOTSTEPS (no walking around!). Any time out of the recovery suite is a danger to the disc trying to form scar tissue and potential for the spinal cord to be permanently damaged. IF she has bladder control (does not leak on you when lifted) and the weather is mild enough, then go outdoors. I set up a a fence on my deck for a potty place right outside the sliding door. All of the meds used with a disc episode are the same meds people use. So keep in mind your vet COULD write an Rx for the needed meds. You bring the Rx script to your local pharmacy in town to get them filled soonest, asap today. Very concerned the pain is not yet being addressed with pain relievers. Hope all this can be taken care of over the phone, your going in to pick up the Rx script...avoding a risky to the early healing disc transport to a vet clinic! Please keep us posted as soon as you are able. Famotidine can be purchased at any grocery store. Tramadol, methocarbamol and gabapentin are Rx items. I encourage you to be knowledgeable about each med your dog is taking or to take. I keep this vet's website bookmarked for looking up my own dog's meds. Here is the Mar Vista Vet Pharmacy link for you to bookmark: www.marvistavet.com/pharmacy-center.pml
|
|
|
Post by Leah & Stella on Mar 3, 2019 8:18:56 GMT -7
When she peed on me this morning it had been 12 hours. I took her at 10 last night before bed and she didn’t go. My husband took her out about 5 am w no luck. When I picked her up to take her at 7:30 is when she voided on me. But Im sure I was pressing on her bladder. Is she allowed to sit with us at all if she’s still? All she does is cry in the kennel. We have a small bed she likes. She doesn’t move from it if she’s right next to us. And we also use it to transfer her. Really reduces movement. She and hubby are very attached. He’s not sold on making her kennel when we are right here to watch her. And he’s stubborn. But he really just wants to be close to her and make sure she’s not sad.
Paula please understand we are in the middle of a snow stormin a very very small town. We do have a pharmacy but it is not open on Sunday. If I could get to Bismarck today I would already be there. I am just doing the best I can short of of FB post requesting those drugs if anyone in the area has them. Which I would consider even though it’s illegal. She does not appear to be in any pain honestly. She’s resting good and wants us to pet her etc. Shes licking her little brother like normal when he sniffs her we don’t let him get too close but he seems to make her happy when we do let him get close under our eye of course. I’m starting to feel like I’m not doing enough for her but honestly until tomorrow I have done what is possible. The crate, sling, very limited steps for poddy, the rimadyl with the antacid. My lab hurt herself a couple years ago. I will dig around and see if there is any of her pills around here. I will also check with our retired vet in town. I think he got rid of everything but I’ll call him.. he also happens to be my uncle. I will keep you posted
[Moderator's Note. Please do not edit 14 lbs Carprofen 100 mgs tab as of 3/2: 25mgs 1x/day for 16 days then stop to test for pain/neuro diazepam weather permitting as of 3/3: ?mgs ?x/day famotidine 5mgs 2x/day]
He had ✙diazepam. We are going to try and get to town to get it. We have 4WD so as long as we can see. 🤦🏻♀️
|
|
PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,544
|
Post by PaulaM on Mar 3, 2019 8:46:01 GMT -7
Leah, 1. How often do you normally take her out to potty? Should be every 4-6 hrs. let us know. Wait of 12 hrs could be leaking on you because not taken out soon enough. Monitor for next 4 hrs to carefully lift and carry her to the potty spot. Does lifting and carrying cause her to leak on you indicated there may now be loss of bladder control and the need to express. Scroll back up for those links on expressing and get a vet to demo how hard to press today. LEt us know what you observe. 2. Did the other vet, not have any pain meds or he was not home? Can you call today (Sunday) asap to see about getting an Rx to take to your local pharmacy in town to get filled on pain meds? THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX Dog's always do the unexpected. Any time outside of the crate is a real danger to the disc trying to heal, trying to form scar tissue. The single most important care is the crate rest part. So...... try putting the crate on top of a sturdy coffee table. Pull it right up to the couch where hubby can touch her through the wires and feel close that way. Beds for people, couches all can slope into the person. Causing the dog to abruptly move to rebalance— BAD for the healing disc. Only the recovery suite has EVERY element of safety for the disc. Even dogs who are paralyzed will jump off furniture at the sound of a TV doorbell, something floating past the window. The crate is alway keeping them from doing harm to themselves. People have the ability to think what could happen in the future and that puts the responsibility on US to make sure we do all that is possible to keep our little patients safe. Knowledge is the power to fight IVDD and win. Can your husband also up his knowledge by going over to our main website and learning all he can about IVDD? Understanding the why of treatment, what the disease is all about, makes is so much easier to commit to following the treatment that will help her, rather than working from uneducated emotions and doing what can harm her. www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingpage.htmEmergency crate training is often a need. Many, many good tips waiting for you to read up on. Here is the link: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/EmergencyCrate%20Training.htm While calmers mentioned work well especially if you use two different ones at the same time, it may take several days to get the calming effect. For immediate help in enabling Stella to relax in her recovery suite, you might also discuss the use of an Rx sedative (ACE, trazodone) for today IF she is rambunctious such as standing up on back legs with paws against the side of the crate (a real no, no). If just whinning for attention, then that is a behavior issue you and your hubby can work on. Be aware you might be inadvertently training for unwanted behavior. To dogs rewards are: food, looking at them, talking to them, eye contact, approaching the crate, petting. So anytime you see unwanted behavior try speaking in your dog's language so he understands to calm down. Turn your body sideways, avoid eye contact until he calms and settles down. Preferable is to start teaching what you do want before there is too much practice in doing the unwanted behavior. Anytime your dog is sitting or lying down quietly, give a reward of a calm loving "good sit/lie." Soon your Stella will see she gets rewards by quietly sitting, etc.
|
|
PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,544
|
Post by PaulaM on Mar 3, 2019 8:57:38 GMT -7
Leah, fully understand the weather situation. I live in NW Montana and we've been have terrific wind chill factor and blustery winds here too. Hope to hear when you are able to get the Diazepam today that it will help. Let us know what your uncle prescribes for the dose in mgs. For round the clock relieve of muscle spasms it would take every 8 hrs dosing. If there is licking going on it should be that Stella is in the recovery suite and other dog is outside of it. Again just really can not emphasize enough how very important the recovery suite is to the healing disc. Dogs can do the unexpected in a blink of an eye. Stella just can not afford to have to abruptly move her back! For dogs the inborn instinct about weakness is for survival protection of the pack as a whole. There are two things that can happen in pack dynamics when a dog has been or is sick. 1. The healthy one may try to eliminate the weaker in the pack. 2. For the sick one, now the weaker in the pack to become more protective and aggressive because they know they are weaker now and may be subject to being attacked. From now on and after graduation from crate rest, be sure that Stella feels protected from her best bud when home alone... the crate will be that source of protection. Whenever you leave the house and they are not supervised, it is a good idea to crate them for their own safety. We have had many instances where a deadly attack among best buds could have been avoided by crating. One I recall is of two sisters who had grown up together and never showed any signs of aggression to one another. The two dogs were put in the kitchen while their owners went out to dinner. They came home to find the IVDD dog almost dead from the vicious attacks of the other. LIFT and CARRY to support both ends A secure impossible to jump out of arms method in video below
|
|
|
Post by Leah & Stella on Mar 3, 2019 9:14:14 GMT -7
Yikes!! How Awful. I’ve also heard of that happening to a friend of my daughter’s. They’d been kenneling their 2 dogs together for s few years. One day they came home and one had killed the other. Reason I didn’t kennel them together when Scout joined our family in October. We are just heading in for the Diazepam. Andrea can get other meds in by tomorrow she thinks.
Also she is asking me if I want both gabapentin and marthacarbonalor just gabapentin?? I have no idea🤷♀️
|
|
PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,544
|
Post by PaulaM on Mar 3, 2019 10:39:03 GMT -7
Methocarbamol is what most vets are Rxing for muscle contraction pain due to a disc episode. Gabapentin is for nerve pain with a disc episode.
You would not use methocarbamol and diazepam.... better bet is to choose methocarbamol. Three sources of pain, thus three different pain meds usually ---tramadol as the general analgesics ---methocarbamol for muscle contraction pain -- gabapentin for nerve pain.
YOu can always scroll back up through past posts to find the three pain meds most used and other things we've written about.
|
|
|
Post by Leah & Stella on Mar 4, 2019 13:42:53 GMT -7
Today’s update on Stella. She poddied last night about 11 and again at 5:30. My husband tried w her about 3 am and she wouldn’t go. This morning she started to pee (on him) as soon as he got her out of kennel. The same thing happened last night when she went. We are both at work by 6 am. I just got home. I put a P pad right outside the kennel door before I took her out. She was trying to run out of the kennel before I even started reaching for her. The second she was on of the P pad she Peed. She also pooped immediately. But not much. I picked her up to take her by the door to another P pad. While I was carrying her she started dripping blood from her bottom. A really dark red. It wasn’t a lot and I feel like it was in her urine but I just can’t be sure. So poddy time is not going very well. Neither is the kennel if I’m honest. I’m sure she’ll get used to it but right now all she does is cry. She ate very well for me after work. I bought canned dog food and she ate 1/2 can and prob would eat more. . She had not been eating her dry food. Her medications should come in today but we are still in a winter storm warning and so it will all depend on to UPS and whether or not they make it. As of 2 o’clock she (vet) had not received them yet. Worst case scenario would be that we wouldn’t have them until tomorrow. That would be the tram at a her medications should come in today but we are still in a winter storm warning and so it will all depend on UPS and whether or not they make it. As of 2 o’clock she had not received them yet. That would be the tramadol, methocarbonal, and the gabapentin. She does not seem to be in any pain. In fact she would like me to let her scoot around (which I would never do of course). I have her close to me where she can see me but she is so upset. I tried isolating her too. As long as she knows we are here she is just a mess. I’m hoping once she gets the medicine it will calm her down. The ✙Diazepam doesn’t seem to effect her much.
[Moderator's Note. Please do not edit 14 lbs Carprofen 100 mgs tab as of 3/2: 25mgs 1x/day for 16 days then stop to test for pain/neuro ✙Diazepam 1cc IM 1-2x/day famotidine 5mgs 2x/day]
Also. I have Trazadone. I take it every night. Is that something I should try? And what is the disease?
|
|
PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,544
|
Post by PaulaM on Mar 4, 2019 14:29:32 GMT -7
Call one of the vets. Find out the dose for the Trazadone.
For some dogs the diazepam works in the opposite for anxiety....it wires them up. As for using it as a pain reliever for the pain of muscle contractions may not work for some dogs. Methocarbamol generally is being reported by owners to be effective. So hope your meds arrive soonest vis UPS!
REFERENCE
While on carprofen, do no change foods. Then if there is diarreah you do not know where to attritube....simple getting used to a new food OR very serious side effect of GI tract damage. Soak her kibble with no fat, lo salt chicken or meat broth. Make it yourself is best so that no onion is used. Just boil up a hamburger patty in equal part water. When chilled trash the fat disc at the top. A tsp or two of crumbled meat can go on top for extra tastiness.
How many mgs of diazepam do you give and how often?
As precaution let your vet know about the dark red blood. Could be a UTI because she's been holding her urine and infection now has set in -- urinary tract infection (UTI). If true an antibiotic would be brought on board.
Also could well be that with all the stress of pain, change in routine and the carprofen way too much acid production has caused GI tract damage. IN that case the prudent thing would be to asap prescribe SUCRALFATE in addition to the Pepcid AC (famotidine) The local pharmacy should have it in stock. As always, recommended to read about every med you dog will be taking. There is a time to the sucralfate with food and with the Pepcid AC (famotidine)
|
|
PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,544
|
Post by PaulaM on Mar 4, 2019 14:39:40 GMT -7
How many mgs of diazepam do you give and how often?
As precaution let your vet know about the dark red blood. Could be a UTI because she's been holding her urine and infection now has set in -- urinary tract infection (UTI). If true an antibiotic would be brought on board.
Also could well be that with all the stress of pain, change in routine and the carprofen way too much acid production has caused GI tract damage. IN that case the prudent thing would be to asap prescribe SUCRALFATE in addition to the Pepcid AC (famotidine) The local pharmacy should have it in stock. As always, recommended to read about every med you dog will be taking. There is a time to the sucralfate with food and with the Pepcid AC (famotidine).
|
|
|
Post by Leah & Stella on Mar 4, 2019 14:54:49 GMT -7
Diazepam is 1cc IM every 12 -24 hours as needed. This morning was her 3rd shot.
I also wanted to ask about a steroid? That was my local vets immediatel thought as far as possible course of tx. In fact she said it was the most common tx outside of surgery.
|
|
PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,544
|
Post by PaulaM on Mar 4, 2019 15:50:25 GMT -7
Diazepam has a rather short half life in the body just like the other pain meds listed out for you. Those other pain meds would be Rx'd for every 8 hrs if intended to provide dose to dose, round the clock pain relief. Diazepam ever 12 hrs or every 24 hrs, does not meet the goal of providing round the clock, dose to dose relief from pain. Report any signs of pain (be specific in detail) to your vet, so they have the facts of whether Diazepam needs to be adjusted. Let us know, too, what signs of pain do you see. Do they appear nearing the next IM shot of diazepam? Or when she has to move to reposition in the recovery suite or move at potty time? Do you keep a med chart so you can note cause and effect, etc? Helpful in seeing patterns and recalling exact date, mgs, details, etc. when discussing thigns with the vet. D/l and print from here: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/crateRRP/medchart.pdf How many mgs of diazepam are contained on one CC or one mL? For pain, meds are not given on an as needed basis but promptly every 8 hrs.
For what purpose was Diazepam Rx'd....for pain or for anxiety? Different doses for different problems.
SIGNS OF PAIN: ◻︎ shivering-trembling ◻︎ yelping when picked up or moved ◻︎ slow to move ◻︎ tight tense tummy ◻︎ arched back, ears pinned back ◻︎ head held high or nose to the ground. ◻︎ restless, can't find a comfortable position ◻︎ slow or reluctant to move much in crate such as shift positions ◻︎ looks up with just eyes and does not move head and neck easily. ◻︎ not eating due to painful chewing or in too much overall pain ◻︎ holds front or back leg flamingo style not wanting to bear weight ◻︎ not their normal perky selves
|
|
PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,544
|
Post by PaulaM on Mar 4, 2019 16:08:02 GMT -7
When there is neuro loss, then immediately within in hrs of that loss most vets will choose the most powerful class of the two (steroid vs non-steroid (NSAID). Your vet choose the less powerful class as that is what was on hand, the NSAIDs (carprofen). Your local pharmacy if open at the time of the visit would have had the steroid prednisone on the shelves, I'm guessing. Now that the nerves have been damaged well over 8 hrs, it is likely not worth the risk of a switch to prednisone. Hours matter when there is neuro loss. A steroid within in hours may have turned things around in getting swelling down enough that the nerve cells would not die.. But now it at this late date, with death of the nerve cells it is the job of the body to get to work on self-repairing nerves. This is a slow process for the body that can take months. There are no meds that heal dead nerves...the body must regenerate them. Since nerve function has not progressed to increased declining state, it is likely carprofen can get the job ofall of the swelling done...usually takes any anti-inflammatory up to 30 day to fully rid the body of swelling in the spinal cord area. Your job now at home is to monitor neuro functions. If you detect worsening nerve function then, it may be worth the risk to switch over to the steroid class. Hours matter in doing this! TWO stomach protectors MUST be on board...same ones I've mentioned: famotidine & SUCRALFATE. NOrmally there would be a 4-7 day washout from the carprofen to the steorid. When a vet deems it an emergency to save nerves, they need to quickly act (hours matter) and would choose a switch w/o a washout. SUCRALFATE and famotidine pretty much allow the switch to happen safely. As damage to the spinal cord increases, there is a predictable stepwise deterioration of functions. When nerve healing begins, often it follows the reverse order. 1. Pain caused by the tearing disc & inflammation in the spinal cord 2. Wobbly walking, legs cross 3. Nails/toes scuffing floor 4. Paws knuckle under 5. Weak/little leg movement, can't move up into a stand 6. Stella????Legs do not work at all (paralysis, dog is down) 7. Bladder control is lost. Leaks on you when lifted. Can no longer sniff and then pee on that old urine spot outdoors. 8. Tail wagging with joy is lost 9. Deep pain sensation, the last neuro function, a critical indicator for nerves to be able to self heal after surgery or with conservative treatment. Trust only the word of a neuro (ACVIM) or ortho (ACVS) surgeon about DPS as too many DVMS get this very tricky to asses function wrong. A quick overview of conservative treatment vs. a surgery: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingsurgery.htm#surgeryVSconservative
|
|