Linda & Max
New Member
M - Dachshund Pancreatisis 2016
Posts: 21
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Post by Linda & Max on Jan 23, 2019 2:11:02 GMT -7
Introducing Max, now battling hernia #5 Hello, I am Linda and I live with Max ( Dachshund), Polle (Border terrier), Ziggy (Maine Coon) and Jut (Barnevelder chicken). Max is currently two weeks into his fifth hernia. His first one was diagnosed December 24, 2016. He has had acupuncture since then to support his healing process plus rest and medication. He was struggling for about three months with better times and really painful periods with a real spike in March. I then went to an ortho manual therapist, Aharon method (only available in the Netherlands I think) on March 16, [2017] where she adjusted his vertebrae. He was doing well after that. Until April 26, 2017 when he was paralyzed and needed surgery. Two weeks after the surgery hydrotherapy was recommended and we also resumed acupuncture. Max recovered fully and was able to walk again and we have been doing so well for a year and 8 months after that. Throughout this time we kept doing the acupuncture and hydrotherapy. On January 6 2019, Max did not want to walk and so we went back to the vet and got a Dex injection plus pain meds (tramadol). We were unsure if it was an injury or hernia so when he appeared to be well after two days, I took him off his pain meds. He was alright until the following Sunday. On January 13 he could not support himself and sat down so he got another Dex injection at the vet. The vet also recommended the ortho manual treatment which was done last Friday (January 18). [Moderator's note: please do not modify]
22 lbs
Dex injection on 1/6
Prednoral [Prednisolone] as of 1/16: 10mg 1x/day for ? days, then a taper to test for pain/neuro issue
ortho manipulation on1/18!
tramadol 25mgs 2x/day
Phytonics spine comp
no stomach protection on board (Pepcid AC)!
Max currently weighs 22 LBS, he is a full size Dachshund, born January 29 2010. Apparently his back is extra long, as he has 8 vertebrae versus (what I was told) the usual 7. I am on this forum seeking advice. It is confusing. I have a great friend who pointed me in your direction as I am getting conflicting instructions. Max is resting but he gets hydrotherapy every Tuesday so he is reminded that he has four legs and not two. He can walk and goes out three times a day to do his business in the garden where he fully supports himself (I have an aid to help him if required). He has had trouble pooping but it is now back to normal. He drinks and eats and does not appear to be in pain (not shivering or making painful sounds like before). He is on 25mg tramadol (twice daily) and 10mg prednoral (once daily). He also gets acupuncture treatment each week as well on Thursday. She prescribed him with drops ( Phytonics spine comp, 3 x 6 drops daily). I boil chicken and make ice cubes out of the broth which I then warm up and put the drops. I work from home so he is under 24/7 supervision. Is there anything else I could be doing or should be doing differently? I thank you for taking the time to read our story any input you may have. |
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Marjorie
Moderator~ 
Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,724 
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Post by Marjorie on Jan 23, 2019 5:09:51 GMT -7
Welcome to Dodgerslist, Linda. So glad you’ve joined us all. We’ve got valuable information we’ve gleaned from the vets Dodgerslist consults with and our own experiences with IVDD since 2002 to share with you. The most important part of conservative care is the strict crate rest for a full 8 weeks. Has that ever been done during the past two years? Too much movement and the damaged disc can tear more, causing more pain and possible nerve damage, even paralysis. It's imperative to protect the spine from further damage and to allow the damaged disc to heal. More on strict crate rest below. Hydrotherapy is way too much movement and must wait until after the 8 weeks of strict crate rest. Max can walk so no need for PT at this time. Transport to a vet is risky for a dog going through a disc episode. When deciding on an additional treatment such as acupuncture, the risk of transport must be weighed against any benefits. Since Max can walk, there is little benefit to acupuncture. Chiropractic or any type of spinal manipulation is not recommended for dogs with IVDD. Please read this page to find out why: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/chiropractic.htmChinese Herbs are composed of many herbs in one bottle/pill, meaning you will need to Google each one to familiarize yourself on what your dog is taking. Herbs can have side effects and can have contraindications with other meds. It's best to hold off on any Chinese meds until all other meds have stopped. It will help us work together with you and avoid offering ideas that could cause harm or lead the discussion in the wrong direction delaying help for your dog — please share a bit more detail with us: ❖1 You mentioned there are no signs of pain. Some dogs can be stoic about pain and try to hide it. Do take a look at this list of signs of pain to see if any of these apply. ☐shivering, trembling ☐yelping when picked up or moved ☐reluctant to move much in crate such as shift positions or slow to move ☐tight tense tummy ☐can’t find a comfortable position ☐Arched back ☐ Holding front or back leg flamingo style not wanting to bear weight ☐head held high or nose to the ground ☐Not their normal perky selves? Full pain relief is expected in 1 hour and stays that way dose to dose. If not in control your vet needs to know asap to adjust meds. ❖2 If on a steroid….what was the start date & dose? Date of steroid taper? Whenever a dog is on a steroid, he should also be on a stomach protector. Not sure if famotidine is available in your country but do check with the vet about adding a stomach protector. PEPCID AC: Ask if your dog has any health issues to prevent use of Pepcid AC (famotidine)? (doesn’t need it, we wait til there is problem…are NOT answers to your question!) If you get a “no health” issues answer, then go to the grocery store to purchase over the counter Pepcid AC containing one single active ingredient (famotidine). canigivemydog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/can-i-give-my-dog-pepcid-ac-300x300.jpg  Doxie weight dogs: 5mg Pepcid AC (famotidine) every 12 hours. NOTE: Pepcid AC (famotidine) for dogs is 0.44mg per pound, 30 mins before the anti-inflammatory and thereafter every 12 hours for as long as your dog is on the anti-inflammatory. www.1800petmeds.com/Famotidine-prod11171.html❖3 Please confirm that strict crate rest has been started today. The hallmark component of conservative treatment is the very STRICT crate rest part (no PT, little movement). With little blood supply discs are much slower to form good scar tissue than it takes a blood rich broken bone to heal. Those weeks of a cast for a broken arm to heal is similar to the recovery suite being a kind of cast for the disc. 100% STRICT crate rest 24/7 for 8 weeks provides limited movement to allow good strong scar tissue to form. Super tried and true tips for setting up the recovery suite, the mattress and more! —> www.dodgerslist.com/literature/CrateRRP.htmSTRICT means: ◼︎no laps ◼︎no couches ◼︎no baths ◼︎no sleeping with you ◼︎no chiro therapy whys: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/chiropractic.htm ◼︎no dragging or meandering at potty times. ◼︎no PT for conservative dogs during 8 weeks to heal disc ◼︎At home laser or acupuncture for severe neuro damage is best. Transports are always a risk to the disc of too much movement. Vet visits must be weighed risk vs. benefit for dogs with little to mild neuro diminishment. Carry to and from the recovery suite to the potty place and then allow a very few limited footsteps. Using a sling (long winter scarf, ace bandage, belt) will save your back and help to keep a wobbly dog’s back aligned and butt from tipping over. A harness and 6 foot leash is to control speed and keep footsteps to minimum as you stand in one spot. An ex-pen in the grass is an excellent alternative to minimizing footsteps with the physical and visual to indicate there will be no sniff festing going on! www.dodgerslist.com/literature/slingwalk.jpg  ❖4 Currently can your dog wobbly walk? move the legs at all? or wag the tail when you specifically do some happy talk? Knowledge is the power to fight the IVDD enemy and win!! The very best thing you can do for YOU, the caregiver, and for your dog is to get up to speed on IVDD soonest possible. Begin absorbing the must-have overall sense of meds, care and how the treatment works. Your dog will be depending on your ability to learn - excellent video series here: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/theater.htm PRINT OUT this link and tape to your fridge: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingpage.htm use the printout as your roadmap to avoid dangerous detours in your dog’s care make notes/highlight to keep yourself on track follow all the links in the next days to become the IVDD savvy pet parent your dog needs. Use the “search box” to easily locate topics over at our Main www.Dodgerslist.com website: www.dodgerslist.com/index/searchBOX.jpgHealing prayers for Max. |
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Linda & Max
New Member
M - Dachshund Pancreatisis 2016
Posts: 21
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Post by Linda & Max on Jan 23, 2019 7:57:32 GMT -7
Thank you for your reply. To answer your questions:
I have seen Max have all these pain symptoms two years ago. Today, since being on meds, he is not his perky self but he has no chance to be either as he is contained and not allowed to move. And Max does not like to be restricted or told what to do. But he is alert and responsive.
Max started on Tramadol but has been on Prednoral [Prednisolone]10mg, once daily since January 16 which he gets around noon,. I will get him a stomach protector as of tomorrow.
Max has had crate rest after surgery two years ago but this time I have allowed him to sleep in my bed so I can take him outside during the night which he has wanted one or two times each night. I was advised to let him move around, which is the conflicting advice that I have been receiving which I referred to in my initial post. I have even been advised to do 15 minute walks but I have not followed that advice. The hydrotherapy has been 2 times 2 minutes in the water.
Max has been walking quite well since getting the second injection. His rear right leg was broken during birth so he has an additional problem. He has been lifting his left rear leg when peeing and I have not had to support him. I have been carrying him to and from the grass. He has been wagging his tail as well. The only time he did not do that, was when he first showed symptoms on January 6 this year. But straight after getting the first injection he has been wagging his tail.
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PaulaM
Moderator. 
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,541
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Post by PaulaM on Jan 23, 2019 8:17:00 GMT -7
Linda, when one has an understanding of how a disc heals during a disc episode, then it is easy to recognize well intentioned but harmful advice to a healing disc. This is why Dodgerslist was started back in 2002, conflicting information, different use of meds...all bewildering to owners! I can't recommend enough to you to get up to speed as quickly as you are able about IVDD. This way you will be able to protect Max, advocate with your vet, ask good and pointed questions and finally be able to say no thanks to harmful advice no matter who it comes from. When a prematurely aged disc ruptures or gets squished, it will push into the very sensitive spinal cord causing anything from minor inflammation to paralysis. Conservative medical treatment does often work when owners are are committed to the treatment. Sometimes everything is going along pretty nicely, the dog is less and less painful, getting around better etc, and it seems like what harm to let the dog out of the recovery suite, sit on your lap, walk around at potty time. The harm is too much movement! The early healing partially ruptured disc bursts open the rest of the way and the poor dog is paralyzed for life. Just so you know 100% STRICT crate rest 24/7 only out at potty times for 8 weeks is how the disc is able to heal and prevent damage to the spinal cord. You can be the IVDD pet savvy parent your dog needs. It won't take much to bone up and get up to speed. Follow the button that pertain to the situation now at hand and as time permits in the next days, do check out all the colored buttons on this page for many happy years ahead of living with an IVDD dog: www.dodgerslist.com/healingindex.htm |
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,541
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Post by PaulaM on Jan 23, 2019 8:45:34 GMT -7
Linda, can you tell us for how many days since the Rx of 1/16 is Max to stay on the dose of Prednoral @ 10mgs once a day? This is important information for you to know and us as well. Here is why. Prednisone, like all steroids, is an unusual med in that it may not be abruptly stopped. Pred is a synthetic hormone which has the body thinking it no longer needs to make its own cortisol hormone which regulates life-giving body functions. The taper is to signal the body to again make cortisol. That taper just happens to be a perfect test for painful swelling for IVDD dogs! Here is how that "test for pain" taper works: --- The vet takes a guess usually with a 7 or 14 day course of Pred that all the painful swelling might be gone. --- The vet calls for all the pain-masking pain meds (tramadol) to be either backed off of stopped. --- The vet also calls for the Prednoral to begin a taper to a lower mg dose/ fewer times/day --- Your job at home is to watch for any hint of pain and report to the vet at once. -- With the report of pain, Pred would go back up on the anti-inflammatory dose level for a bit longer to try and get all painful swelling down. All pain meds would be on board as well as Pepcid AC. --- Getting all the swelling down can possibly take from 7-30 days excluding any days that Prednol is at the tapering lower dose/frequency. -- Always have a plan "B" in place with the vet during a taper on what you should do should pain surface. A plan "B" might be an Rx you could fill or having enough meds on hand should that happen over a weekend or evening when the Vet is closed, to save an expensive ER visit. --- For a more complete education than the above quickie outline, you will want to read how anti-inflammatories are used during a disc episode: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingsweling.htmWhen you get the stomach protector on board, do let us know the name of it, ?mgs each dose and IF, if it is Pepcid AC (famotidine) that you ARE giving it twice a day for optimal acid suppression. |
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Linda & Max
New Member
M - Dachshund Pancreatisis 2016
Posts: 21
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Post by Linda & Max on Jan 23, 2019 8:49:11 GMT -7
It is hard and the first instinct is to trust the professionals with his care. It does also scare me to go against someone telling me to come in with Max for treatment. They have been treating him for over two years. Max is in his create now, I will take him out two more times before going to bed and then I will hope he accepts being in there. Two years ago that is what I did and he barked all night. He would sleep during the day though. But the sleepless nights prevented me from providing the best care. I would trip lifting him, falling over putting him down to do his business. But I am going to try again to keep him at the crate at night as well.
I have asked to reduce the ▼prednoral and was allowed to. So as of tomorrow he will get 5 mg and then after 2 days he will get 5 mg every other day for 4 days before I am out.
[Moderator's note: please do not modify]
22 lbs
Dex injection on 1/6
Prednoral [Prednisolone] as of 1/16: 10mg 1x/day for 8 days, then 1/24 taper to test for pain/neuro issue
ortho manipulation on1/18!
tramadol 25mgs 2x/day
Phytonics spine comp
no stomach protection on board (Pepcid AC)!
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,541
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Post by PaulaM on Jan 23, 2019 9:49:30 GMT -7
Linda, then as of the begin of the test for pain taper tomorrow, 1/24, you will be monitoring for any hint of pain to surface. Which does your vet want with the pain masking Tramadol? To do a full stop tomorrow or backing off it? Even during the pred taper, it would be a good idea to get Pepcid AC (famotidine) on board. Not only will pred cause increased stomach acids but also change in the dog's routine (crate rest). Using any oral calmer in combination with a Pheromone diffuser seems to work best. It takes several days for these to start working - it isn't immediate but they are a much better option if you can avoid heavy duty prescription sedatives (ACE or trazodone). Of course always keep your vet in the loop on all things you give your dog. Place a DAP pheromone diffusor at floor level where the recovery suite is: --DOG Adaptil (DAP) wall plug in diffuser 48ml www.adaptil.com/Use diffusor with one oral calmer from below: Oral calmers: 1) ANXITANE® S chewable tabs contain 50 mg L-Theanine, an amino acid that acts neurologically to help keep dogs calm, relaxed www.virbacvet.com/products/detail/anxitane-l-theanine-chewable-tablets/behavioral-health 2) Composure Soft Chews are colostrum based like calming mother's milk and contain 21 mg of L-Theanine. www.vetriscience.com/composure-soft-dogs-MD-LD.php 3) Rescue Remedy is a liquid herb combo to help with relaxation www.bachrescueremedypet.com Be aware you might be inadvertently training for unwanted behavior. To dogs rewards are: food, looking at them, talking to them, eye contact, approaching the crate, petting. So anytime you see unwanted behavior try speaking in your dog's language so he understands to calm down. Turn your body sideways, avoid eye contact until he calms and settles down. Preferable is to start teaching what you do want before there is too much practice in doing the unwanted behavior. Anytime your dog is sitting or lying down quietly, give a reward of a calm loving "good sit/lie." Soon your dog will see they get rewards by quietly sitting, etc. At night try a blanket draped over the the crate and down the sides to eye level to make more den-like. Also if perchance your dog is wanting to jump against the sides of the crate, he won't see anything and will quickly extinguish that kind of behavior. |
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Linda & Max
New Member
M - Dachshund Pancreatisis 2016
Posts: 21
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Post by Linda & Max on Jan 23, 2019 10:55:32 GMT -7
I just ordered the adaptil diffuser which should be delivered tomorrow and I have a consult with the vet tomorrow about the Tramadol pills. I will send more information after speaking with her. Thank you for all your input. I hope Max will sleep tonight without problems. I hate for him to have to pee and not be able to. I do have pads that I will put in the crate. What would be your advice on my other dog who usually sleeps in the crate? He is quite old (11) and set in his ways. When they stay over elsewhere they do sleep in it together. Can that do harm or would that be alright?
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,541
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Post by PaulaM on Jan 23, 2019 11:29:40 GMT -7
LInda, the recovery suite should only have Max in it. Your other dog can have a mattress setup up right outside t he suite and be able to be very close to Max in that safe way.
Is the suite going to be next to your bed at night? Then you will hear if he starts to move. While on pred he may need a mid-way during the night potty break. Try giving the last drink of the night say at 8pm with potty time just before bedtime at 10pm. Max may be able to sleep the night through til 6am, you will just have to see if you need to set the alarm for a mid-way during the night potty time. If he will pee on a pee pad inside the house, then put the pee pad adjacent to the crate or in the bathroom where he can be alone from your other dog, pee on the pad. A bit of urine from your other dog saved in a zip lock bag and placed on the pee pad can be good incentive to pee if Max's training is to not pee indoors.
Let us know how the diffuser works. As mentioned often it will take two calmers...the diffusser PLUS one of the oral calmers.
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Linda & Max
New Member
M - Dachshund Pancreatisis 2016
Posts: 21
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Post by Linda & Max on Jan 23, 2019 13:02:09 GMT -7
The crate is downstairs because I am there during the day and I don't want to move it. Plus my other dog does not like to be lifted and he would need to if he were to join us upstairs. I am thinking about sleeping on the couch for the coming weeks but I will see what tonight brings. I have put my mattress on the floor in the past and tried all sorts of things to keep Max comfortable. He is restless in the crate right now, not settling down. I follow instructions, not to go to the crate, make eye contact or give him anything while in there. To be honest, I am exhausted which I was not two years ago when we spent over five months like this. Maybe it is because I try to do right by him, but so far all I have found that everything that I have tried to do for him has been wrong to do. Knowledge can be a blessing but it can also be a burden if you realize you might have only hurt your baby.
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Post by Romy & Frankie on Jan 23, 2019 14:11:12 GMT -7
Please don't scold yourself for things you have done in the past. Now you are becoming a knowledgeable IVDD pet parent and going forward you will know the best way to care for Max.
Taking care of our IVDD dogs can be exhausting especially in the beginning. I remember we put our mattress on the floor when Frankie was on crate rest. I am not sure if Frankie needed this but I did.
Hopefully the two oral calmers will work for Max and he will be able to settle quietly in his crate. If he does not, consider asking the vet about a sedative for him. The ones we see used most commonly are Acepromazine or Trazodone. You need to be able to sleep in order to care for him.
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Post by Julie & Perry on Jan 23, 2019 17:33:20 GMT -7
If he can't settle in his crate have you tried a baby playpen?
My dogs do much better in one.
I too camped out on the sofa for the 8 weeks of crate rest.
Everyone makes mistakes when learning about how to deal with IVDD. I made some whoppers!
When you know better you do better.
We're here to support and help you and your dog.
Healing thoughts and prayers to you both.
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Linda & Max
New Member
M - Dachshund Pancreatisis 2016
Posts: 21
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Post by Linda & Max on Jan 24, 2019 0:26:06 GMT -7
Thanks for the comments, they really help me cope right now.
I guess mistakes are inevitable, especially if you get different instructions. But I can't use that as an excuse anymore. Max ended up making noise for over six hours last night but around 3.30 he settled down so I got two hours sleep. The pillow was drenched in urine and he had managed to get the water bowl off the clip so he was all wet and he just looked at me and did not make any attempt to get up.
I took him outside and when he had done his business, he would not let me lift him. He just laid down in the grass. So I had to pretend to walk away which is when he got up again and then quickly try to grab him. He knows exactly what to do to get his way. As much as I wanted to give in last night, I did not do it. Also, because I knew he was not making noise because he was miserable. When he stays over at my parents, he is in that crate all day and sleeps in it without issue. So it is not that he hates it. He just doesn't want to be in there when he is here. I actually thought about bringing him to my parents, just so he would be in the crate without issue, but I cannot put his care on anyone else. I have also tried a baby play pen before but he just does not want to be confined (if he needs to be). I have tried many variations.
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Marjorie
Moderator~
Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,724
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Post by Marjorie on Jan 24, 2019 6:06:33 GMT -7
Sorry to hear that Max didn't settle down for most of the night, Linda. Pred does increase thirst and therefore while he's on it, he will need to urinate more. As Paula recommended, you may need to give Max a potty break half way through the night while he's on the Pred. It's a shame he's fussing all night since that doesn't give you a clue as to when he has to go. Withholding water two hours before bedtime should help. Try emptying his water bowl two hours before bedtime and then filling it again in the morning for him.
Are you using a harness and leash when you take him out? That not only helps keep his steps while doing potty to a minimum but also will keep him from trying to dart away from you. Use a harness and a 6' leash and stand in one spot.
Prayers for a better night's sleep tonight.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,541
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Post by PaulaM on Jan 24, 2019 9:45:22 GMT -7
Linda, agree with Marjorie's comments in above post.... last drink of the night and then remove water bowl til morning. Play it by ear whether you'll need to set your alarm to provide him a mid-way during the night potty break. Ex-pen 6 foot diameter fenced off potty place OR is a "must" to use the controlling harness and leash to protect his disc from too much movement.  Have you been able to use Max's language in trying to calm him? When you approach his crate and he is agitated, IMMEDIATELY turn your back to him or stand side ways (maintaining no eye contact) til he calms. In the split second he stops whinning or whatever is objectionable, IMMEDIATELY mark the exact good behavior he is doing at that moment with eye contact and a kind/loving "YES!, good quiet, Max!!" or whatever is appropriate. Max needs you to tell him what you want. Never going to the crate does not allow you to teach what is wanted. If you wait even seconds to tell him he did something good, he'll think whatever he is doing at that second is what you are talking about. During the day whenever you observe he is quiet, just sitting or lying down, MARK that particular moment with a "YES!, good sit, Max!" or whatever is approprate. Randomly you can also give a small low cal piece of apple or carrot with your "YES!" to mark something he is doing that pleases you. He should soon learn what earns rewards and what behavior gets him no eye contact, your body turned sideways or even your back to him.... very clear signals in dog language you are not happy about his behavior and want him to calm down.
Do you have his mattress (pillow) set up like the tip given in our supplies list .... alot more great tips there too: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/cratesupplies.htm__ Blankets and change of bedding: 100% synthetic (no cotton) fleece fabric as a bottom sheet wicks moisture away from skin (have 2-3 on hand) and dries quickly. Inexpensive fleece throws can be cut to sizes. You can buy fleece yardage at Fabric shops. This is a no-sew project as fleece does not ravel. Layer in this manner: Trash bag enclosed mattress, pee pad*, fleece bottom sheet tucked in all around mattress. *Use human pee pads as they have no scents to encourage peeing. *OPTION to disposable pee pads are reusable waterproof absorbent bed pads: reasonably priced, washable and last a long time. You can also look for children's disposable bed mats at your stores. Cut down the crib or twin bed size to make several crate size ones. TAPERKeep us posted on how the taper starting today goes.
Which did your vet want with the pain masking Tramadol...to stop or back off during the test for pain Pred taper? |
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Linda & Max
New Member
M - Dachshund Pancreatisis 2016
Posts: 21
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Post by Linda & Max on Jan 24, 2019 10:26:22 GMT -7
Max went to 5 mg ▼prednoral today and a single dose of ▼tramadol 20-25 mg (splitting a 100mg tablet). Waiting on vet consult as we speak with how to process that. I got the ✚stomach protector today as well.
[Moderator's note: please do not modify]
22 lbs
Dex injection on 1/6
Prednoral [Prednisolone] as of 1/16: 10mg 1x/day for 8 days then 1/24 tapering to test for pain/neuro issue
ortho manipulation on1/18!
tramadol 25mgs▼ 1x/day
Phytonics spine comp
✚stomach protector name ??mg ?x/day]
I was awake all night so I could have gone downstairs to let him outside, but since he was really asking attention I did not go downstairs as I felt it more important not to respond to his behavior. I do hear the difference between him needing something and Max wanting something. Also, he has had no issues peeing on the bed in the past if he was annoyed with something or even just as a convenience.
Whenever Max does anything right I tell him he is a good boy. If he is in the crate or anywhere else, outside peeing, letting me pick him up, eat his food or whatever else he can do right, he gets rewarded with praise and he gets his low fat chicken treat frequently to support that verbal praise.
I have those reusable pads that you can use if people/animals are incontinent and Max moves them to the side and pees next to them. I got the tuck in kind and even then he manages to remove them. I might need to staple them shut, but I imagine him finding a way around them.
I did end up moving the crate today, next to the big window where he can look outside. His favorite pillow used to be in that spot. Plus I am facing him while working but I have the ability to have my face behind my screen to avoid eye contact if necessary.
He has a harness and leash for going outside. It does not prevent him from laying down though and I don't want to upset his back by pulling him up. I have a support system for his back but he does not like it. So when he poops and it takes long and he gets upset, I just kneel behind him and support him with my hands which seems to work best. I have done that as well two years ago when he was fully paralyzed.
O I was reluctant to remove his water last night cause he is not a big drinker usually and the meds really got him thirsty so I did not want him to be without water all night but I will remove it tonight. He is on a lower dose already anyway... I am planning on sleeping on the couch first and then taking him out at around 3 am, and then go upstairs. See how that goes... If it does not work, I will take the crate upstairs with me tomorrow when I go to bed.
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Marjorie
Moderator~
Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,724
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Post by Marjorie on Jan 24, 2019 12:24:33 GMT -7
It sounds as though you're doing a good job with him, Linda. We all know how difficult it is to have a dog on crate rest, even when they don't object to it. Having a dog who vocalizes about his displeasure being crated makes it all more difficult.
What was the name of the stomach protector and how many mgs are being given how many times a day?
As previously mentioned, keep a close lookout for any return of pain and/or neuro loss during the taper so you can immediately advise the vet.
Prayers for a pain-free taper off of all meds.
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Linda & Max
New Member
M - Dachshund Pancreatisis 2016
Posts: 21
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Post by Linda & Max on Jan 25, 2019 1:32:47 GMT -7
Max had a relative good night (meaning so did I :-)) He was noisy and restless as long as I stayed downstairs. Tried a blanket over the crate but that did not help so I went upstairs and did not make another sound. He was quiet until 4 am when I took him outside. He was very restless after that so I stayed with him. He was not being difficult, he seemed somewhat panicky. He had peed in the crate as well so I cleaned it and replaced the pad. I will go downstairs sooner tonight, at 2 am instead.
Max has been having problems with his stool. It does not come easy and can take up to him trying three times when we do out. If it takes too much toll on him, I do support him. He can get 10mg Omeprazol once daily but my vet recommended I go with Puur Stomac (it is written this way) instead, give him two scoups (1/2 gram) in food twice daily. This to avoid his stool becoming more difficult. He has had acute pancreatic disease as well. That was in April 2016.
[Moderator's note: please do not modify]
22 lbs
Dex injection on 1/6
Prednoral [ as of 1/16: 10mg 1x/day for 14 days then 1/30 tapering to test for pain/neuro issue
ortho manipulation on1/18!
tramadol 25mgs 1x/day
✚Puur Stomac (Real chamomile, ginger, garden angelica, hops, milk thistle, dandelion, peppermint leaf, Iceland moss and liquorice. 6.08 mg magnesium)]
Today Max has gotten his Tramadol 25mg and will get Prednoral 5mg later in the day. Tomorrow, only his dose of Tramadol 25mg. Sunday, Tramadol 25mg and Prednoral 5mg. Monday Tramadol 25mg. Tuesday Tramadol 25mg and Prednoral 5mg. As of Wednesday [1/30] I will stop any pain medication, provided he is not in any pain. It will then be 3,5 weeks since he first showed symptoms of a hernia.
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Marjorie
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Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
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Post by Marjorie on Jan 25, 2019 5:56:17 GMT -7
Glad to hear that you had a better night, Linda.
The meds can cause constipation. I'm not familiar with Puur Stomac. What we do know that works well is pumpkin. Give one teaspoon of pumpkin for every 10 pounds of body weight. To loosen the stool, add equal parts water to each kibble meal along with plain canned pureed pumpkin 1x a day. Note alternatives for constipation: really ripe mashed fresh pear, just take off the peel; microwaved and mashed peeled sweet potato.
If you believe that Max is feeling panicky, you may want to speak to the vet about prescribing a mild sedative to calm him. Or try the diffuser and oral calmers that Paula recommended.
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PaulaM
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Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,541
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Post by PaulaM on Jan 25, 2019 9:17:23 GMT -7
Linda, agree with Marjorie that a high fiber water soluable food plus soaking kibble in equal parts of water does work. PLUS the dog gets nutritional benefit from the food as well. The ingredients of Puur Stomac that might affect constipation is magnesium and licorice--- these ingredients can cause diarrhea.
We follow the vets who prescribe Pepcid AC (famtoidine) to protect the stomach by suppressing the extra acid production change in routine, pain and steroids cause. The reasons are multi-fold:
--- famotidine acts in 30 mins.
--- Omprezole can take 3-5 days before it reaches peak effectiveness. So by the time Omeprazole is working the Prednol will have been ended!
--- Famotidine 10mgs every 12 hours does a very good job of suppressing acid production.
--- Puur Stomac if it was Rx'd to react to extra stomach acids contains only 6.08 mgs of magnesium as an anti-inflammatory acid), is likely not enough for stomach protection! Meds Rx'd for stomach protection contain 500 mgs of either aluminum or magnesium salts.
When any multi-herb product is used it is a good idea to Google and understand each ingredient. You are acting as the nurse at home and the double checker on meds in use. Puts you in a better position to be aware of what to monitor for and also todiscuss things with your vet.
chamomile may increase the risk of bleeding when used with anticoagulants or antiplatelet drugs. Prednol is a steroid that reduces the ability for blood to clot that can last for 14-days after the last dose.
Liquorice- may increase the adverse effects associated with corticosteroids such as prednisolone
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Linda & Max
New Member
M - Dachshund Pancreatisis 2016
Posts: 21
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Post by Linda & Max on Jan 26, 2019 10:26:24 GMT -7
First, I want to express again how much your input has helped me change strategies for Max and made me rethink everything about his treatment and medication and all else he needed that I was not getting him before.
He is doing well. Today off the prednoral (prednisoral) for the first day, he will get another dose tomorrow though as he gets 5mg every other day but today has been good. He also slept well last night. I checked on him every hour from 2 am to 8 am to see if he wanted to go pee but he slept through.
One thing I wondered about. I checked the list of pain symptoms and I did not see shallow breathing or panting on there. Might this be a sign of pain? it does not seem like he is in pain but he seems to pant quickly. Then again, his energy levels are low as he has not been having any exercise (I find myself needing to catch my breath walking up the stairs as I miss my exercise with the boys). Just wanting to make sure I am not missing signals. Max seems comfortable. He did want to roll in the grass today which obviously he was not allowed to but it is a normal activity for him so he seems to do well...
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Post by Romy & Frankie on Jan 26, 2019 14:13:52 GMT -7
I am very glad that Max is doing well on the every other day dose of pred.
Panting can be a side effect of both tramadol and pred. If you are not seeing any other signs of pain, then I don't think Max is in pain. To help with the panting, try frozen broth ice cube to lick or a fan near the recovery suite but not pointing at him.
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Linda & Max
New Member
M - Dachshund Pancreatisis 2016
Posts: 21
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Post by Linda & Max on Feb 5, 2019 0:51:51 GMT -7
Max had his last prednison tablet on January 29. He has not shown any pain symptoms since, but he did have nausea and belly problems (noises) on February 2nd so I took him to the vet. He had a shot of dex and something [?] against the nausea which resulted in him resuming food intake little over an hour later.
Since then he has not received any pills so all meds are out of his system since noon February 4. And he seems to do well. No more belly problems, even a decent stool. He does want to do more but I rather have a frustrated dog in a crate than a dog that is in pain after doing too much. We are now 5.5 weeks in since he first showed pain systems.
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Mary & Mila
Helpful Member 
FEMALE— DACHSHUND
Posts: 218
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Post by Mary & Mila on Feb 5, 2019 5:26:26 GMT -7
Hi Linda, Just reading Max's story. It's great that he is off the meds and is so far not showing signs of pain. Glad his belly probs have been resolved too. So far so good eh. When our dogs are on the road to recovery the boredom with the crate increases, Max will want to be out of there, thinking he's fine. Now it's more important than ever to stick to your guns with the tried and tested 8 weeks of strict crate rest, there's only 2.5 weeks to go. www.dodgerslist.com/literature/AfterCrateRest.htm Hang in there, both of you. kind regards Mary |
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Linda & Max
New Member
M - Dachshund Pancreatisis 2016
Posts: 21
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Post by Linda & Max on Feb 11, 2019 0:49:04 GMT -7
I think I can conclude that Max his taper has been successful. Which is something I am grateful for because I have read other posts that have not had as positive an outcome.
Max has been off any meds for 7 days now. His last prednison injection was on February 2 and left his system noon February 4. He has shown no pain symptoms since. When he goes outside for his bathroom breaks he walks with a straight back. I seem to be in more pain than him at the moment. That is a bit of a problem as I am alone in his care. I have a frozen shoulder on the right and a tennis arm on the left. My treatment is rest and no stress. Neither is possible with Max his care though stress levels are much lower with him not being in pain or on meds. But he is a 22 lbs dog that I lift and carry a minimum of 8 times a day outside and back inside.
Anyway, I keep going as best I can. It has been five weeks (I was wrong before saying it was 5,5 week already/ wishful thinking) now since first showing pain. So we have a bit of time left to go. It was recommended that I keep him on Rimadyl by the vet but for the duration of his recovery but since it caused nausea I am not sure I want to resume treatment with painkillers at this point. I am very glad that he has been off Tramadol since Friday February 1st because it made him seem 'away', glassy look in his eyes. Now he is more aware and very much like his old self. He seems to be doing very well, just a very low acceptance of crate rest but since he was not crate trained by his first owner I cannot complain about how it is going.
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Marjorie
Moderator~
Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,724
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Post by Marjorie on Feb 11, 2019 6:07:08 GMT -7
Since Max has been off of all meds for 7 days and has shown no sign of pain returning, you have proof that the swelling pressing on the nerves of the spine is now gone. So there is absolutely no need for any meds at this time. You don't want Max on meds for any longer than he needs to be. All that remains to do for his recovery is to continue the strict crate rest for the rest of the 8 weeks.
I'm sorry to hear of the medical problems you're having. Would Max use a pee pad that you place right outside of his crate so you don't have to carry him in and out to do his business? Lay down a pee pad with the addition of urine from another dog or from Max on top. Always save a used piece of pee pad in a ziplock bag to use at potty time. Or if he's in a wire crate, put caster wheels on the crate and wheel it to the door so you don't have to carry him as far. Or put a ramp down steps and wheel him right outside to his potty area.
Have you tried any of the oral calmers that Paula recommended to calm him in the crate? Is he moving around a lot in the crate or just being vocal? If he's moving too much, a sedative may need to be prescribed by the vet to keep him resting now that he's feeling more like himself.
You're doing a great job caring for Max and he's doing very well. Hang in there.
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Linda & Max
New Member
M - Dachshund Pancreatisis 2016
Posts: 21
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Post by Linda & Max on Feb 11, 2019 6:13:30 GMT -7
Max is a very particular dog. He will whimper until I let him out if I want him to pee on a pad and he will move the pad to the side if it is in the crate before peeing on everything else that is in there. Knowing that we have had the worst, I am going to hold on and try to limit the times I have to carry him. He does not move but sits still and just makes noise. I have the adaptil next to the crate but it does not seem to affect him. I would try a sedative, it is just that I know that he loves being in the crate, as long as he does not need to be. Anything I want him to do, he refuses to. In fact I know that once crate rest is over, he is going to be in there non stop. Cause the door will be open. Just a bit less than 3 weeks to go... I hope it will continue like this (him not being in pain that is, not him being difficult ;-)). Thanks for all your help and I will post another message closer to the 8 week mark.
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Marjorie
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Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,724
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Post by Marjorie on Feb 11, 2019 6:23:53 GMT -7
Linda, we have the date that strict crate rest started as being 1/23. Since Max was having hydrotherapy once a week, true crate rest didn't start until then. So graduation date would be 3/20.
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Linda & Max
New Member
M - Dachshund Pancreatisis 2016
Posts: 21
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Post by Linda & Max on Feb 11, 2019 7:17:03 GMT -7
Okay got it, it is a bit of a setback as I thought I had had the longest time already. I was counting from the moment he was diagnosed. So another five weeks then. I will see how long I can keep it up. If I really am prevented from lifting him altogether then a hotel with medical care could be an option. But I will try and keep it up as long as I can as I don't want to leave him in someone else's care. But I have been warned that if I am not careful my condition could take years to heal and that won't benefit me or Max.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,541
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Post by PaulaM on Feb 11, 2019 7:51:01 GMT -7
Linda, as the care giver, you must make sure you continue to be able to care for him. How about a potty option that protects you? Set up an expen in conjunction with the crate. At potty times you open the crate door to a smallarea ex-penned in potty place. Arrange the expen so that it weighs down the edges of the pee pad to keep Max from moving it. Place some of another dog's urine or some of Max' for inspiration for Max to pee on top of the old urine smell. picture of set up: encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTo85w2U_dNHA0UWZGt-HvVf6q_SyOKCPwXV7z00BXBkxQV1CrX |
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