|
Post by Jared & Jill on Sept 21, 2016 19:34:22 GMT -7
Update on Jill. She had her second visit to the acupuncture vet today. He is still optimistic on her condition. Not 100% sure she passes the "sniff and pee" test. She is able to hold her bladder and bowels, and does hunch her back when doing #1 and #2, but, usually does this while walking. She now has a ton of energy, and wants to walk around as much as she can, but, we do our best to limit her. She still seems to be getting better every day, but, no legs yet. Even if she gets them, she is not allowed to use them much till Nov. 8th when she gets off crate rest.
|
|
PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,603
|
Post by PaulaM on Sept 22, 2016 7:55:26 GMT -7
Jared, Nov 5 will be graduation day. Until then you are doing the right thing in making sure there is continued 100% STRICT rest 24/7 for the full 8 weeks, only out for a very, very few footsteps at potty time. With now wanting to move more at potty time, I found with my own dogs, that setting up a fenced in area out in the grass was the better option than the leash/harness idea. Use some of that poke in the ground garden edging fence or an ex-pen to form a 6 foot diameter potty place. That way Jill will have the physical and the visual to let her know there will be no sniff festing going on during a potty break. Love your updates as they let us follow along with Jill's journey to recovery and graduation on Nov 5!
|
|
|
Post by Jared & Jill on Sept 24, 2016 18:30:10 GMT -7
Any advise on dog sweat? Her belly is always so sweaty when we pick her up to go out. I do not think its pee, does not smell like it and goes up to her chest.
|
|
Marjorie
Moderator~
Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,724
|
Post by Marjorie on Sept 25, 2016 4:31:52 GMT -7
I don't think it would be sweat, Jared. Dogs sweat through the pads of their feet and cool off by panting. Are you also finding wet bedding or does she leak on you when picked up? You mentioned that Jill urinates while walking with a sling but that may be overflowing of the bladder as she moves or the sling may be expressing her bladder as she walks or she may not be able to completely empty her bladder. Are you expressing her bladder after she goes on her own to be sure that her bladder is empty?
See if she can pass a sniff and pee test (let her sniff where she's peed before, just supporting her hind end with your hands not under the belly, and see if she can release urine). That way you know her brain is connecting with the nerves of the bladder. Even if she can pass a sniff and pee test, she may not be able to completely empty the bladder so may still need some help with that.
|
|
|
Post by Jared & Jill on Sept 26, 2016 3:29:07 GMT -7
It is for sure incontinence. It is weird because she shows signs of control. She will wimper or claw at her cage when it is time to go out. She is still hunching to do her business, but, she has had a lot of accidents in the last couple days when we are ready to carry her out.
|
|
Marjorie
Moderator~
Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,724
|
Post by Marjorie on Sept 26, 2016 4:22:45 GMT -7
Jill may indeed have some control over her bladder which is a good sign. Hopefully as the nerves heal, she will regain more control. Until then, she will need to have her bladder manually expressed. Your goal will be to learn how to express her until she can remain dry between expressings. At first as you learn how to completely empty the bladder, you should try to express every 3-4 hours. Don't wait for her to let you know it's time to go out. She's apparently only able to feel the need to urinate when her bladder is completely full and ready to overflow. It's overflow of urine that you're seeing when you carry her out. Urine that lies in the bladder too long can lead to urinary tract infections. So do express every 3-4 hours until she stops having accidents in the crate and then you can try to move it to every 4-6 hours. Express until the urine is only a dribble instead of a stream and the bladder will feel flat. Here's our page again on expressing: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/Expressing.htmPlease keep us updated on how the expressing is going. If you have any trouble expressing, don't hesitate to return to your vet for a hands-on-your-hands demonstration.
|
|
|
Post by Jared & Jill on Sept 28, 2016 17:22:38 GMT -7
Hello,
We are still working on expressing, but, she does not seem to need to eliminate when we do. We take her out more at frequency of every 1-2 hours and she usually goes. It is probably due to how much she is drinking with the Predisone.
In the last 2 days, the pee accidents are way down, but the poo accidents are way up. She usually poos after being outside for a few minutes and when we carry her in she poos. We are following the recommended carrying technique from Dodgerslist.
Good news, she did great at her 3rd accupuncture/laser treatment, we really love the vet there, they seem most sincere to getting Jill back to full health.
I have some concerns about the last two days though. After 2 weeks of seeming to feel no pain, she is now yelping at times when pick her up to go out or lift her in her sling. Not sure if this means she is getting some feeling back and a good thing, or if she has further injured herself, please advise.
[25 lbs Prednisone as of 9/15: 5mg 2x daily for 5 days, then taper for about 13 days Pepcid AC 5mg 2x/day Cefpodoxime 100mg 1x a day ]
|
|
|
Post by Julie & Perry on Sept 28, 2016 17:58:05 GMT -7
My dog Nala never regained bowel control. What works for her is I feed her at the same times each day to regulate her digestion. When I take her potty I put my thumb and forefinger on each side of her rectum and massage to stimulate the muscles. If that doesn't work I take an ice cube and touch it to the rectum for about 10 seconds and repeat if needed. Doesn't hurt a bit and works like a charm.
As too the yelping has her pain meds been cut back? Sounds like pain too me. Check with your vet. Best wishes.
|
|
PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,603
|
Post by PaulaM on Sept 28, 2016 18:36:49 GMT -7
Jared, a look at the med list shows a pred taper started on 9/20. You are reporting pain resufacing on 9/26. Yelping with pain is never a good thing. Pain actually hinders the healing process. A pred taper is the time to monitor to see if all the painful spinal cord swelling is really gone. The vet needs to know right away about the pain. A 5-day course of pred (5mgs 2x/day) is a short course. It can take anywhere from 7-30 days on the original anti-inflammatory dose to resolve the swelling (taper days do not count)...nobody knows when the swelling will be gone. That is the reason the vet calls for a test-for-pain Pred taper. Your vet will likely call for another 5 or longer day course of pred to see about getting all the swelling down. With another course on board (back up at the original Pred dose) pain meds (Tramadol), Pepcid AC need to continue as well. Here is the video and information on how to express for poop. www.dodgerslist.com/literature/Expressing.htm#poop Expressing for poop is doable about 30-60 min when Jill's body would normally push it out. Your job is to get there early and express so there are no accidents to give Jill anxiety. Do let us know what changes to the med LIST the vet makes.
|
|
|
Post by Jared & Jill on Oct 3, 2016 18:37:25 GMT -7
Hi all, Jill seems to be doing a lot better with her potty issues. Since her last acupuncture last tuesday she has had 0 wetness in her crate. She had one poo accident in her crate since then, but, it could have been from us not being on top of go time. She had one more poo accident today when my wife took her big brother for a walk. She saw the leash and was throwing a fit, I am gonna chalk that one up to being too excited. Bad news is, she shows no signs of recovery of her hind legs. At almost 4 weeks is this normal? We have almost come to accept that she may be in a cart for the rest of her life.
|
|
|
Post by Julie & Perry on Oct 3, 2016 19:04:38 GMT -7
My Nala wasn't doing anything 6 weeks after surgery. What really seemed to help was hydrotherapy. They are in a tank with water and supported by a sling.
She's also come back from rear leg paralysis that was conservatively treated twice. There is hope.
|
|
PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,603
|
Post by PaulaM on Oct 4, 2016 8:29:13 GMT -7
Jared, could you bring us up to date on the pain issues....yelping you reported 9/28. Were there any adjustments to the med LIST, what is she currently taking?
25 lbs Prednisone as of 9/15: 5mg 2x daily for 5 days, then taper for about 13 days Pepcid AC 5mg 2x/day Cefpodoxime 100mg 1x a day
As Nala wrote, it really is too early in the nerve healing department to make a judgement about the future. The focus right now is to get the disc to heal. Nerve healing may or may not happen in that short of time of 8 weeks the disc needs to heal. Nerve healing is a slow process better to think in terms of months rather than days/weeks.
After all 8 weeks have been completed, then with graduation then you can decide where money is best spent. If there are indications of some leg movement under water treadmill is one of the very best therapies to help re-learn the art of walking. If no leg movement, then a wheelchair will allow Jill to enjoy a nice run and walk her backyard while waiting on more nerve repair to happen.
|
|
|
Post by Jared & Jill on Oct 5, 2016 13:35:42 GMT -7
She is only on ▼Prednisone 5mg 1x daily, and Pepcid 5mg 1x/day. The day she was yelping, I think she was just sore from the acupuncture.
Great news today though, she had a big breakthrough. I pinched her toe webbing as I do every day to check for pain reflex. She turn and looked at her toe and yelped! First time she has shown a pain response, so she is doing good.
I really think the acupuncture and laser treatments are helping a ton.
|
|
|
Post by Romy & Frankie on Oct 5, 2016 13:50:12 GMT -7
Am I correct in saying that Jill is no longer showing any signs of pain? That is very good news.
Be careful about doing a test for pain. Sometimes this test results in too much movement of the back.
Many of our members have had success with acupuncture and laser treatments. I am glad that you are seeing that with Jill.
|
|
|
Post by Jared & Jill on Oct 5, 2016 13:59:03 GMT -7
You are correct, she was only showing signs of pain for one day, and it was the day after her treatment. The acupuncture vet told us on her following visit that this is normal. He also showed me how he wants me to test for the pain sensation. Now that she is responding, I am not going to do it as frequently, and I will ask her doc on our next visit on what he would like to see.
|
|
PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,603
|
Post by PaulaM on Oct 6, 2016 7:32:53 GMT -7
Jared, the reason Romy mentioned about the test for the neuro function called deep pain sensation (DPS) is that often general DVM vets do not correctly interpret what they observe so not likely you would correctly read what you see. Only trust the word of a specialist about DPS. In addition it may cause undo movement of the dog, not something you want to be doing with a dog on conservative treatment.
There was thought that Jill can control her bladder. Let us know more about that.... does she NOT leak on you when lifted? Is she NOT urinating where she sleeps? Have you seen her pass the sniff and pee test which proves she has the ability to sniff an old pee spot in the grass and then send a message all the way down the spinal cord to the bladder to then release urine? All those things means she has bladder control.
If you have seen her wag her tail with joy upon specifically seeing a treat or hearing your voice do some happy talk, then you already have had conclusive proof that deep pain sensation (DPS) exists and there would be no need of the pinch test that hurts. No one gets the happy tail wag wrong, but we only trust the word of a specialist about DPS. If she has bladder control, well, then she has progressed far down the list of returning neuro functions from the rudimentary DPS.
Nerves heal typically in textbook fashion of the reverse order of the damage to the spinal cord, let us know what you have observed and where she is on the list below? 1. Deep Pain Sensation (Only correctly identified by a specialist.) 2. Tail wagging with joy at seeing you or getting a treat or meal. 3. Bladder and bowel control verified with the "sniff and pee" test. 4. Leg Movement, and then ability to move up into a standing position, and then wobbly walking. 5. Being able to walk with more steadiness and properly place the feet. 6. Ability to walk unassisted and perhaps even run.
Got our fingers crossed that you will not see in pain surfacing on the taper of prednisone meaning all painful spinal cord swelling has been resolved. With proof all the swelling is gone that would mean the pred taper can go to conclusion and just the rest of the 8 weeks is needed to heal the disc. Please do keep us current on how things are going.
|
|
|
Post by Jared & Jill on Oct 6, 2016 13:55:56 GMT -7
No leaking what so ever since after her treatment on Tuesday last week. Been wagging her tail the whole time. No loss of bladder function since treatment last Tuesday.
|
|
|
Post by Romy & Frankie on Oct 6, 2016 14:20:08 GMT -7
Very good news about Jill. Wagging her tail is an excellent sign.
Can she pass the sniff and pee test now? This would mean bladder control has returned or is returning.
Paula mentioned the stages of healing. If Jill has bladder control she is moving steadily forward in her recovery and she is now at Stage 3.
1. Deep Pain Sensation (Only correctly identified by a specialist.)
2. Tail wagging with joy at seeing you or getting a treat or meal.
3. Bladder and bowel control verified with the "sniff and pee" test. <== Jill 4. Leg Movement, and then ability to move up into a standing position, and then wobbly walking.
5. Being able to walk with more steadiness and properly place the feet.
6. Ability to walk unassisted and perhaps even run.
|
|
|
Post by Jared & Jill on Oct 6, 2016 16:54:37 GMT -7
Really a hard call on the sniff and pee test. We keep her pretty confined outside. She does stop and squat like she used to. She continues to try to walk while pooping and peeing. That being said, her legs bow out and she hunches when it is time to go. Because she does this, I am pretty sure she is trying to relieve herself and not just the sling forcing expression.
|
|
|
Post by Jared & Jill on Oct 20, 2016 17:15:26 GMT -7
From my facebag feed "Update on Jill the dog. After a couple of weeks of not seeing any improvements, and her once again losing feeling in her toes, she has passed a huge milestone in the last 48 hours. When we take her out to go potty, she kicks her hind legs like she wants to walk. This kicking motion seems to come from her hips and above the knee. She still can not operate her legs from the knee down, but, a huge sign of improvement. She gets off crate rest on election day. With as much fight as she has, she might be a better candidate for president than what we have been presented with." For the forum. She is now stopping and fully squatting to pee and poop. No accidents in the recovery suite for 2 weeks.
|
|
|
Post by Julie & Perry on Oct 20, 2016 21:08:24 GMT -7
Hooray!! Great news on Jill's improvement. She sounds like a fighter. It's great that you and your ex are working together on Jill's recovery. Good for you.
|
|
PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,603
|
Post by PaulaM on Oct 21, 2016 10:17:40 GMT -7
Jared, thanks for the update. Good to hear definate confirmation of bladder control? It is still very early in the nerve healing department. The next neuro function signs to watch for are: 4. Leg movement excluding those at potty times which can often be reflex. When dreaming do the legs move, any attempt to scratch an ear? Watch for attempts to move herself up into a standing position, and then comes wobbly walking. 5. Being able to walk with more steadiness and properly place the feet. 6. Ability to walk unassisted and perhaps even run. More info: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingnerves.htm
|
|
|
Post by Jared & Jill on Oct 21, 2016 16:59:05 GMT -7
Over 2 weeks without an accident. No more wanting to trot while she goes. She stops, squats and does business.
|
|
|
Post by Jared & Jill on Oct 23, 2016 12:00:23 GMT -7
Jill stood up on her own power today!
|
|
PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,603
|
Post by PaulaM on Oct 23, 2016 12:07:48 GMT -7
Jared, that is REALLY great news. To follow will be some leg movements. The focus on the 8 weeks is all about getting the disc to heal. We don't expect nerves to heal in that short of time. Jill, however, is on a roll! Go Jill.
|
|
|
Post by Jared & Jill on Oct 23, 2016 13:03:50 GMT -7
Thanks Paulina. She has quite a bit of strength and movement in her right leg. This was the leg she used to push herself up when someone came to the door today. When we are on potty breaks, she moves both legs like she wants to walk. The left leg is weaker though.
|
|
|
Post by Jared & Jill on Nov 1, 2016 13:39:19 GMT -7
She is up on both legs now, seems to be only the feet are numb now. She is at the drunken legs point of return. She is a slippery little devil! She knows she can walk, and tries to take off before we can get the sling under her. She might be at full function by the time she graduates!
Thank you all my dodgerslist supporters! Jill thanks you too.
|
|
|
Post by Romy & Frankie on Nov 1, 2016 13:52:09 GMT -7
|
|
|
Post by Julie & Perry on Nov 1, 2016 16:15:06 GMT -7
Hooray!! So glad Jill is doing so well.
|
|
|
Post by Jared & Jill on Nov 1, 2016 16:52:08 GMT -7
I know dodgers list has us marked at Nov. 5 for graduation. We had 3 days that she was not resting after injury, so we have her at Nov. 8th as her graduation and plan to keep her crated until then.
We will keep you updated on her progress and hope to post video of her walking soon!
|
|