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Post by Wendy & Dutch on May 19, 2016 13:52:53 GMT -7
*Hi my name is Wendy Hall, we live in Virginia. Dutch is our 6-year old, male long-haired mini-Dachshund.
*On 1/5/16 Dutch could not move and was rushed to VA tech - he had CT and diagnosed with IVDD, herniated disc - they recommended surgery. Our family vet is DVM and the surgeon is ACVS-AS certified.
*On 1/6/16 Dutch had surgery and 4 days later came home and went on strict crate rest (crate rest per your site)
*On 3/5/16 Dutch as off crate rest and had 100% mobility and full bladder control.
*On 5/16/16, Dutch had another episode where he couldn't walk, yelped when we picked him up and was trembling. I rushed him back to VA Tech, but when we got there they said he was ambulatory and did not recommend surgery. But when we got back home that afternoon he was no long able to walk or move legs.
*Dutch weighs
13 pounds. The dr. prescribed
Gabapentin (50 MG/1 pill 3 X per day),
Deramaxx (12 MG/half pill 1 X per day) and
Tramadol (50 MG/quarter to half pill every 8 hours). I asked if Dutch could take Pepcid and they said yes, so he is on 5MG 1 X per day in the a.m. before other meds.
*Although Dutch cannot walk, my husband and I decided to do 8 weeks of crate rest with the meds above rather than surgery. Dutch wags his tail when he sees us or we talk to him, which is good.
*Dutch is eating great, but not drinking as much as he should. He is not going potty in his kennel, but I'm not seeing him go pee outside. I've technically only seen him pee once per day since Tuesday of this week. He has pooped once per day and it looks normal.
*When we carry him outside, he just sits there - only after some firm encouragement he will walk around and sniff, but it's not consistent. We are taking him where he has been before and I"m letting our other Dachshund (5-year old, female) go potty where he goes because he likes to pee where she goes.
I'm worried about his urinating - I dont' want to load him up, so what is minimum per day? when should I load him up? If he can't walk after 8 weeks should I get wheelchair? I don't want to do surgery and I don't want him to live in a crate - I need hope!!
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Post by Romy & Frankie on May 19, 2016 14:38:05 GMT -7
Hi Wendy and welcome to Dodgerslist. I am sorry that Dutch is having another disk episode. The first thing to know is that it IS in the cards for your dog to get back to enjoying life whether immediately walking during the short 8 weeks of conservative treatment it will take a disc to heal or waiting on more nerve repair - IVDD is not a death sentence. Find out why that is true: www.dodgerslist.com/index/SDUNCANquality.htm Not drinking can be a serious side effect of taking a NSAID like Dermaxx. Let your vet know about this right away. We have seen many dogs here on Dodgerslist that have recovered with the conservative treatment of Strict crate rest. So you should defintely have hope. After you have called the vet could you answer some questions to help us understand Dutch's situation better. ☐ Let us know you are on the same page about crate rest. The hallmark component of conservative treatment is the crate rest part. With little blood supply discs are much slower to form good scar tissue than it takes a blood rich broken bone to heal. That 6 weeks of a cast for a broken arm to heal is similar to the recovery suite being a kind of cast for the disc. 100% STRICT crate rest 24/7 for 8 weeks provides limited movement to allow good strong scar tissue to form. Super tried and true tips for setting up the recovery suite: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/CrateRRP.htm STRICT means: - no laps - no couches - no baths - no sleeping with you - no chiro therapy - no dragging or meandering at potty times. Carry to and from the recovery suite to the potty place and then allow a very few limited footsteps. Using a sling (long winter scarf, ace bandage, belt) will save your back and help to keep a wobbly dog's back aligned and butt from tipping over. A harness and 6 foot leash is to control speed and keep footsteps to minimum as you stand in one spot. An ex-pen in the grass is an excellent alternative to minimizing footsteps with the physical and visual to indicate there will be no sniff festing going on! www.dodgerslist.com/literature/slingwalk.jpg ☐ Is Dutch still currently in pain - shivering, trembling, yelping when picked up or moved, reluctant to move much in crate such as shift positions or slow to move, tight tense tummy, restless, can't find a comfortable position. Ears pinned back, arched back. Holding front or back leg flamingo style not wanting to bear weight, head held high or nose to the ground. Not their normal perky selves. Full pain relief is expected in 1 hour and stays that way dose to dose of correctly Rx/d pain meds. "There is medicine and there is healing. Healing requires rest and comfort, and all patients should be kept as comfortable as possible. Studies have shown a correlation between less pain and faster recovery from illness, surgery, or injury." Barak Benaryeh, DVM, DABVP. Identifying Pain in Geriatric Patients. Veterinary Team Brief. NOV/Dec 2015. ☐ Why Chiropractic is not recommended for pain for an IVDD dog. www.dodgerslist.com/literature/chiropractic.htmRead all you can about IVDD and question everything and read so you become the most important part of your dog's health care team. Good place to start your self education: www.dodgerslist.com/healingindex.htmHealing thoughts for Dutch. |
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Post by Wendy & Dutch on May 21, 2016 4:59:17 GMT -7
Hello! First of all, Dutch is drinking more but not at the level he was before the episode. He is urinating 1-2 times per day in his own. I called the Dr to ask about drug side effects and she said it's rare but the Tramadol might cause him to not drink as much, so we have gone from 1/2 a pill per day to 1/4 pill per day. [Correction the Tramadol dosage should have read 1/2 pill to 1/4 pill every 8 hours!]
They were not concerned about the Deramaxx and neither am I since he has been on that before (same dose) and had no problem. The Dr said the most important thing was that he went a minimum of once per day and that he was going on his own - we are keeping a close eye on his water intake and urination to make sure ok.
To answer your other questions, yes we are on the same page wrt crate rest!! We used your site to make sure we got the right kind of crate, set it up exactly as your site described and are following your exact definition below of "strict crate rest". He only comes out for potty 4 times per day and we carry to/from with harness and sling and allow as few steps as possible. This is hard because he wants to chase birds and squirrels so we are working extra hard to keep him distracted from them and focused on potty time but it is hard!!
He does not appear to be in pain, no shivering and no yelping, in fact he seems to be quite the spry little fellow!! He perks up when you enter the room or talk to him, he will sit up and whine like he wants to get out, it kills me!!
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Post by Wendy & Dutch on May 26, 2016 8:25:16 GMT -7
UPDATE!! Dutch is doing great!!! He is standing in his crate and moving his legs!! We will still do 100% crate rest as described above, but this is a good sign! He is also much more himself and does not appear to be in any pain!! Drinking and eating normal and pee/poop is more consistent!! 6.5 weeks to go!! Go Dutch!!
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PaulaM
Moderator. 
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,555
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Post by PaulaM on May 26, 2016 19:39:33 GMT -7
Wendy, really wonderful news on the legs now moving and has the ability pull himself up into a standing position by himself. Keep on keeping up the your good crate rest principals to get the disc healed!!! As soon as he is off all meds and no pain shows then you can begin a program of very, very light least aggressive range of motion (ROM) and massage to keep the joints flexible and circulation up in the muscle tissue. See that yellow ROM icon under Dutch's picture, that is to remind us to tell you more. 13 pounds. Gabapentin 50mgs 3x/day
Deramaxx 12 mg tab as of 5/16: 6mgs 1x/day for ? daysTramadol 50 mg tab: 12.5 mgs 3x/day
Pepcid AC 5mgs 1x/dayThere is no way to for anyone to know when all the painful inflammation is gone until there is a stop of Deramaxx and both pain masking pain meds (Gabapentin and Tramadol). Dutch has been on Deramaxx for 11 days now.... for how many days did the vet prescribe the Deramaxx? Does your vet want pain meds to be backed off or stopped at the date Deramaxx is to be stopped. Let us know. Rule of thumb is: pain = swelling = more time on anti-inflammatory, pain meds and Pepcid AC needed. You can get a better handle on how anti-inflammatory drugs like Deramaxx are used with a disc episode so you know what you want to discuss with your vet: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingsweling.htm |
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Post by Wendy & Dutch on May 29, 2016 16:09:38 GMT -7
Thank you!!! The Dr wants to reassess after 2 weeks which will be Tues 6/1 - I will ask then and advise.  ?
[13 pounds.
Gabapentin 50mgs 3x/day
Deramaxx 12 mg tab as of 5/16: 6mgs 1x/day for 17 days
Tramadol 50 mg tab: 12.5 mgs 3x/day
Pepcid AC 5mgs 1x/day] |
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Post by Wendy & Dutch on Jun 6, 2016 7:41:37 GMT -7
UPDATE - we are off Gambepetin! Dr wants to continue Deramaxx and Tramadol until gone (another 2 days), then see how he does...Dutch is doing really well, in fact, I think he is doing so well, I'm worried about another episode! He tries to chase birds, pulls on harness and tries to roll over and jump when we are putting harness/sling on for potty breaks!! When he did this after surgery, the dr put him in Traxidone to calm him down, may be doing that again? I know we will have to train him not to jump, but it hard now while on crate rest, he just doesn't understand! We got him a 2nd kennel for upstairs so he can sleep in our room, he likes that! Thank you!!
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,555
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Post by PaulaM on Jun 6, 2016 7:55:58 GMT -7
Wendy can you tell us how Dutch's back leg are doing. Can he move them at all, can he move up into a standing postion...do share the details of his back leg neuro function. When off of all meds and no pain would show, then if Dutch's back legs are still not able to move, then would be the time to do some very light ROM and massage. The information highlighted in PINK pertains to a dog who can't walk after off all meds an no pain surfaces: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/massagepassiveexercises.htmIf he can now move the back legs, then at potty time the very few footsteps he would take is enough to keep joints flexible, etc. Now with him feeling so good, you may need to rethink potty times. How about an expen in the grass so he knows there will be no darting off--- no sniff fests? |
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Post by Wendy & Dutch on Jun 6, 2016 8:27:53 GMT -7
Dutch can stand and walk, sometimes he is wobbly, but otherwise good! I have an Ex Pen, that is a good idea! I'll set it up today! So are you saying that if he can stand/walk then I do not need to do ROM?
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,555
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Post by PaulaM on Jun 6, 2016 9:50:45 GMT -7
Wonderful news that nerve repair has returned walking even if wobbly. So now he can move on his own, the limited footsteps you allow at potty time several times a day are the PT. No need of you doing any of the light ROM for him.
Please do keep us posted and hope to hear the ex-pen will keep his discs safe during the potty breaks.
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Post by Wendy & Dutch on Jul 4, 2016 18:26:46 GMT -7
Hi! So this week [July 11] marks the 8th week in Dutch's conservative treatment!! He is walking and doing great! No pain! We are still doing strict crate rest and using sling and harness for potty breaks. Now, I'm thinking ahead to post crate rest (I.e. Graduation) - I assume he still needs to be in crate at night and when we leave the house but otherwise, no jumping or rough housing, etc...any other advice? He desperately needs grooming, but of course we haven't even considered it while on crate rest. Thanks!
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Post by Pauliana on Jul 4, 2016 21:58:30 GMT -7
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Post by Wendy & Dutch on Jul 5, 2016 8:31:51 GMT -7
Thank you! Great article, but it doesn't mention grooming - assume as long as I have a good groomer that is Familiar with IVDD that I'm good? I do not know how to groom and he needs his hair cut, especially around his paws...
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,555
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Post by PaulaM on Jul 5, 2016 8:44:41 GMT -7
Wendy, your groomer needs to know to keep the back horizontal to the ground and to support both ends when lifting him. Not use a collar to restrain but a harness. You might wish to be there in person during this first post graduation groom to be in your comfort zone and there to answer any questions.
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Post by Wendy & Dutch on Jul 15, 2016 9:25:47 GMT -7
Hi there!! So, Dutch is doing great!! We followed the article this week, gradually increasing time out of the crate, etc. We learned how to groom him ourselves using clippers, etc. we wanted to get the fur off his paws to minimize slipping, etc. we are also training him not to jump up (he stands/jumps on us to get our attention or say hello) and it's going very well! so, question - he still walks a little wobbly but shows no signs of pain, do I need to invest in a wheelchair or is this normal? I'm so stressed that he's going to have another episode!!! Looking ways strategies to ensure he doesn't have another episode so quickly after this past 8 weeks of crate rest...so far in the past 6 months, he has spent 4 of them in the crate!! Thank you!!!
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Post by Romy & Frankie on Jul 15, 2016 13:20:16 GMT -7
It is great that you are training him not to jump up. That is so important for an IVDD dog. There is no need to get a wheelchair if he is walking even if a bit wobbly. His walking will likely improve as the nerve healing continues. I think all of us worry about our dogs having another episode but they still have to be dogs. These are some back friendly ideas: 1. Keep weight down to reduce stress on back. 2. Build up to daily 30 minute walks, good exercise to strengthen back muscles 3. Hide and seek games involving nose work are good and can be played inside or outdoors (hide yourself behind a door, hide kibble pieces on a bottom shelf, under edge of rug, sink treats in a saucer of water) 4. Swimming, water therapy is good exercise. 5. Fetching a gently rolled tennis ball along the ground is good exercise. Avoid dog pouncing or stopping suddenly. 6. Obedience training for mind stimulation, teach a new word or command. I play hide and seek games with Frankie where I hide a treat where he can't see it and then tell him to "find it". He loves that game and it is a safe thing to do. Frankie uses a ramp to get in the car and into our bed and he always will. Not all dogs take to ramps right away. Here is a link to ramp training. www.dodgerslist.com/literature/ramptrain.htmAnd here are tips on how to make your home back friendly: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/protectback.htm |
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Post by Wendy & Dutch on Jul 15, 2016 14:54:10 GMT -7
Oh thank you! Thank you!!!!! Love all the support I've gotten!!!
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Post by Wendy & Dutch on Aug 9, 2016 19:34:10 GMT -7
Hi! I am a Dodgerslist member but can't find my thread - I am seeing lots of adds for the "Lil Back Bracer" and wondered what your opinions were on this product? Any Vet/Surgeon reviews or comments???
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Post by Pauliana on Aug 9, 2016 21:40:17 GMT -7
Orthotics such as a back brace should require an Rx from a board certified neurologist (ACVIM) who is well educated in disc disease. An ill fitting product that is not custom made can do more harm and the Rx would be for a specific reason.
Dodgerslist has consulted with several neuro and rehab specialists. The overriding concern is that owners may buy a brace on their own thinking it will be instead of strict crate rest or think it would prevent a future disc problem.
During a disc episode these are the concerns:
- Getting them on without causing any more pain or damage to the spine is on top of the list. Too much movement to get the brace on is not good for a dog that you are trying to limit movement of the back.
- Additional muscle atrophy in the spine is another big concern as muscle strength is very important to maintaining spinal health.
- Unnecessary discomfort, pain and anxiety caused by having to wear this device tight enough to limit movement… adequate limited movement is supplied with owner commitment to safe and effective 100% STRICT crate rest 24/7.
- Braces would require monitoring for pressure (rub) sores. Also, if not properly fitted (not covering from thoracic down to tail) there is the potential to create a fulcrum. It is hard to immobilize the entire back and not end up creating a fulcrum that stresses out adjacent disks.
- A brace would not be a preventative measure. Disc disease is the cause of prematurely aging discs…a disc problem happens at the point the disc has hardened too much. Any activity such as turning to lick a paw or putting on and off a brace could be the last straw for a disc that is no longer flexible.
At this time there isn’t enough research on them for Dodgerslist to support their use with an IVDD dog. What we do know is that strict crate rest is what works to heal a disc – it’s proven and crate rest is safe.
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Post by Wendy & Dutch on Aug 10, 2016 20:12:58 GMT -7
Great points!!!!!!! As usual, I'm so thankful for you guys!!!!
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