Susi & Hans
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Mom of three grown human kids and three senior doxie furbabies that are the light of my life
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Post by Susi & Hans on Mar 11, 2015 21:42:11 GMT -7
Well, I forgot to ask her not to start the prednisone again, but they wanted to try a little while longer to see if we can get some of the swelling down and see if we can get some improvement in his right leg. I must say that he's only had three doses so far, and though nothing huge is happening, he's seeming much stronger. He wants out if the crate so bad! He's already torn up his blankets and the bag covering his mattress pillow, and taking him out is almost impossible. As soon as I get him in my arms when I take him from the crate, he's wiggling to be put down. He has now got 100% control of his bladder and bowel. It's nearly impossible to keep in one place once he's on the ground. He's beginning to spinal walk, the left leg has much more strength than the right which pretty much drags behind him. He can stand on all four legs if he's helped, and I have seen him get up once into a standing position by himself. The vet is suggesting that we start looking into getting him a cart now, so with the help of the Dachshund Lovers group on Facebook, that is in the works.
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Post by Debbie Blackwelder on Mar 12, 2015 6:35:31 GMT -7
Please update us on the dosage of the Prednisone. Just remember that all of this started on Jan 28th and it is still early in the game for a dog with IVDD. Nerves sometimes do take a long time to heal, there is no deadline for nerves to regrow. It is up to Hans body how he will heal. Don't be too quick to get a cart. Many dogs don't ever need them. Assess whether money is better spent on a wheelchair or PT to learn to walk again only after the initial recovery period of 6 to 8 weeks of crate rest has been completed. Nerves are the slowest part of the body to heal, it can take as long as 6 months or a year+ for a full recovery. Cart's can be beneficial at starting movement and some dogs do go on to walk after using a cart for a while. I would discuss it with your Vet at his check up. This article tells what features to look for in a cart so he would be comfortable in using it. A cart is used every day and several times a day. Dogs will use a cart for a couple of hours at a time, not all day long. www.dodgerslist.com/links/cart.htmLaurie @ www.dogstogo.net, is very knowledgeable from having 25 years as a registered vet tech and having worked in a surgery clinic with surgeons. She builds carts that have been approved by the surgeons. They are very affordable under $100. Mention Dodgerslist and she may still have a discount offer. Eddie's Wheels for Pets: Custom-fitted wheelchairs for dogs with mobility issues The Frankie Wheelchair Fund: Helping dogs with mobility issues with a wheelchair. For families in financial stress or dogs in rescue I love these cart videos, a cart doesn't hold a dog back but gives them fun: (Oscar) (Paula's Clark) Ollie's scooting cape: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/incontinentdown/Olliecape.pdf
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Susi & Hans
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Mom of three grown human kids and three senior doxie furbabies that are the light of my life
Posts: 105
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Post by Susi & Hans on Mar 12, 2015 12:53:14 GMT -7
He is back on the same dose that she had him on before his surgery,
Prednisone one 5 mg tablet every other day. I am still giving him the same doses of pain meds as before, 1/2 tab of Tramadol every 8 hours a day (except during the night), Methcarbomol 1/4 tab with the Tramadol, plus one gabapentin at night, now the prednisone every other day.
When the vet saw him last (I'm not sure if the date), he had movement in his left leg and was not knuckling the foot.. He was just beginning to stand for a minute or two, and the vet said that he does show reflexive movement in his right leg. Ever since he started the prednisone again, he has improved so much. He can pull himself from a sit into a stand using his left leg, he his spinal walking, and hopping when he tried to run. He seems to be using the upper part of his right leg, but the foot still knuckles. He falls on his butt, but is able to get up with a little boost if he can't can't do it him self.. To urinate he stands on his own and to defecate he usually sits. He is having no trouble doing either on his own. I will say this, now that he has figured out that he can move on his own, there's no stopping him! I spoke to a vet tech at at my vets office who has a doxie in a cart who referred me to dogs on the go, and I have looked into them. Their prices are very reasonable. But at this point in time I am not in a position to purchase him a cart or have professional therapy done with him. That I will have to lea on my own. As I said in my previous post, some people on the Dachshund Lovers Facebook page are putting together a you caring fund raiser page for me to help with the expenses I have, including the cart, which I think is coming fro K9 carts. I understand that the nerves take a very very long time to heal. I also know that the usual conservative treatment time in a crate is from 6-8 weeks. He has been in the crate about 6 weeks now give or take, and yes I will keep him in there at least a couple more if need be; but if getting a cart will give him more freedom to move and will making happy, that's what I want as long as the vet says that it is safe to do so. I know that being in a cart can be a long term, rest of his life way of living, I also know that it could also be temporary. If he's physically ready, I say let him do it. All I want is for my dog to be happy and able to get around the best way he is able to.
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Post by Debbie Blackwelder on Mar 12, 2015 13:56:46 GMT -7
Thanks for the update on the meds. From what I just read I think Hans is doing fantastic and you are very lucky. Don't give up on him, he is trying his best to overcome this and with time there is a good chance he will.
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Susi & Hans
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Mom of three grown human kids and three senior doxie furbabies that are the light of my life
Posts: 105
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Post by Susi & Hans on Mar 15, 2015 15:32:56 GMT -7
I don't know what to do with this boy of mine. Now that he's discovered that he can move about, albeit very wobbly, he's hating the crate more and more. He actually throws little tantrums when I put him in if he doesn't want to go in! He squirms and turns his body all around and makes it difficult to get him in the door. He's tearing up his blankets (almost like nesting them but with more force), he scratches at the doors of the crate and he's beginning to whine and bark. He's always been a weiner but this is a different level. He's upset, he's mad, he wants out! Then I get upset, and I've caught myself yelling at him. That makes me feel awful. I must say that this is all the time, there are times when he is tired, and he'll go in and sleep. Now I'm wondering, what happens next? Should he get a cart, should he not? Does he stay in the crate 24/7 or can I come out now and then? Is this spinal walking permanent? I'm upset and confused now.
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Marjorie
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Post by Marjorie on Mar 15, 2015 17:19:11 GMT -7
It takes a full 8 weeks of strict crate rest for the disc to heal and form scar tissue. Hans MUST stay in the crate 24/7 except for potty times with as little movement as possible at potty time until graduation day, which is 3/25. This is vitally important as too much movement and the not-yet-healed disc can tear again and you'll be back to square one or worse. Even when graduation day comes, you can't just open the crate door and let him come out. He'll need to be gradually re-introduced to movement again over a period of several weeks, still spending quite a bit of time in the crate. It sounds as though it might be a good idea to speak to the vet about prescribing a mild sedative to calm him down for the remainder of the crate rest. The activity he is now doing is way too much movement. He needs to remain quiet and not move too much or that disc can tear again. Take a look at this page for other ideas on how to calm Hans in the crate: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/EmergencyCrate%20Training.htmYou may inadvertently be teaching him unwanted behavior. He's looking for attention and even when you yell at him, that's giving him attention. Ignore him when he barks, don't look at him, turn your back on him, walk out of the room. The link above will give you more tips on how to crate train. The nerve damage that Hans has experienced can take a long time to heal, months, even a year or more. I wouldn't think about getting him a cart until a couple of months after crate rest is over to see how he progresses once he comes out of the crate. Is Hans still on any meds? If he is no longer taking meds, we can give you some massage and passive exercises to do. If he's still on any meds, then there's no proof that the swelling has resolved so you would have to hold off on doing any type of exercises. Also, he would not be able to graduate from the crate if he's still on any meds. So please update us on the status of his meds.
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Marjorie
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Post by Marjorie on Mar 16, 2015 4:53:08 GMT -7
Yes, I did see the list you posted several days ago but since he's being given Pred once a day, I thought he was on a taper of the Pred and might have tapered off of it. Has the vet spoken to you about when she wants a taper of the Pred to start? Is the Pred and pain meds being given due to the stomach surgery or the back? The swelling from an IVDD episode usually takes 7-30 days to resolve but sometimes it can take longer. It's difficult to tell whether Hans' disc swelling has resolved or not since he hasn't had a period of time when he's been off of the pain meds. Unfortunately, until you know for sure whether there is still swelling pressing on the nerves of the spine, you'll need to continue crate rest even if it's past the 8 weeks. The only way to tell if there is still swelling is to taper off the Pred, stop the pain meds and see if swelling returns. I would discuss this with the vet so if appropriate, he can be weaned off of the Pred and pain meds by the time he graduates from crate rest.
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Susi & Hans
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Mom of three grown human kids and three senior doxie furbabies that are the light of my life
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Post by Susi & Hans on Mar 18, 2015 17:44:22 GMT -7
I spoke with the vet today. She wants me to start tapering his pred down to one every 3 days, and to taper off on the pain meds as well. She's going to speak to the doctor who does the acupuncture to see how many treatments he should get a week; and to monitor his progress. I am taking your advice about not allowing him to move around much, when I take him out, he has a harness and leash on him. I'm going to keep him him the crate until I get an official release from the vet, who said the same as you that he may need to spend more than just the 8 weeks. As for his behavior in the crate, lately he's been quite quiet in there. I think he sees it as a safe to rest place rather a cage all of a sudden. I've been giving him Benadryl if he gets too wired, and the vet did say that if I need something else, she could prescribe something mild for him. That's about it for this update. Talk with you soon.
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Marjorie
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Post by Marjorie on Mar 19, 2015 4:39:42 GMT -7
You're doing a great job with Hans, Susi, and advocating so well for him. As you know, if any pain does arise during this taper, the vet will need to immediately know. Prayers for a pain-free taper for your little guy. I'm so glad he's quieted down in the crate! That makes it so much easier on you and Hans.
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Susi & Hans
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Mom of three grown human kids and three senior doxie furbabies that are the light of my life
Posts: 105
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Post by Susi & Hans on Mar 19, 2015 13:16:45 GMT -7
Thank you so very much for your support, Marjorie. I must honestly say that I was always afraid to post or read peoples respsonses because I was feeling like the worst doxie mom on the planet. I know that the advice given by all of you is for the best of Hans, but I am not good at making suggestions to my vet as to things we can try to do with him. I'm the type who thinks that "she's the vet, she studied this, I didn't". Luckily she is open to listening to me when I have the courage to bring up questions or suggestions. I do have some questions for you... when can I try some passive ROM therapy on him, or is it even something I should do since he is fairly mobile? Also, The vet did suggest trying some water therapy, to get him to strengthen up those hind legs. She suggested getting a dog life jacket to use with him with a small amount of water (in the tub, as I don't have a pool) to get him used to it, and little by little adding more water. What are your thoughts on this?
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Post by Pauliana on Mar 19, 2015 14:35:18 GMT -7
Hi Susi!
You are a wonderful Mom to Hans. Don't be afraid to post as no one would look down on you one little bit.
ROM exercises should wait until Hans is off all meds. Water therapy should wait until after crate rest is over as the healing of the disc or discs should come first. The muscle tone will come back pretty quickly after it is safe for him to gradually return to activity after crate rest. I know this from personal experience as I was in a wheelchair for 8 months and lost muscle tone.. It did come back quickly after I was able to walk. The same was true of my dog Tyler, who had 8 weeks of crate rest during his past 3 episodes and his muscle tone returned.. It really isn't a big concern. The disc healing is far more important.
Most DVMs in a general practice see many different species- hampsters, cats, all breeds of dogs, reptiles, birds, maybe even farm animals. They practice many specialties in the course of a day: pediatrics, dentistry, surgery, internal medicine. Is it surprising, that keeping current and in depth knowledge of each and every disease for every species is probably not likely? However YOU can easily become a mini-expert on one very-important-to-you disease. They may not see many IVDD cases in a day and learn about their long term care,especially if their clients don't report back to them on some of their suggestions. (Water therapy too soon etc) We have had members do water therapy too soon and have a relapse happen as a result. Stand strong when you think a suggestion or treatment is the wrong thing to do.. You can do so in a nice way or just take the suggestion and not follow through on it.
Hopefully the taper will continue smoothly.. You are doing a great job with Hans..
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Susi & Hans
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Mom of three grown human kids and three senior doxie furbabies that are the light of my life
Posts: 105
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Post by Susi & Hans on Mar 20, 2015 17:15:48 GMT -7
I'm kinda worried about Hans. When we started the pred again with the acupuncture, he was showing signs of improvement especially in his right leg. Last night and today I've noticed that he seems to be losing the bit of improvement he had gained. His foot is starting to knuckle again, the whole leg seems to be getting floppy and dragging again. He still can stand on all four legs, but they tremble so much, and he'll just all of a sudden sit down (I'm sure because his legs are tire). It's not been long enough for him to be off the prednisone for this change you'd think. I can't really say if he's in pain or not, I've cut out his middle of the day dose, so he's only getting it in the morning and at bedtime. I know that he is very stiff and probably sore in the morning just by the way he moves. He's not yelped at me touching him at all, but another thing I'm noticing is that when I take out to go potty, he will take a step, yelp and jump away. He did that quite often before he went down so I don't know what causes him to do it. I walk barefoot in the grass and have never stepped on anything. After he went down, I began to think that maybe those were some signs that something wasn't right. To this day I think the same thing. Finally, one other thing that he's doing is panting almost continuosly. I said that before and you've said it could be either a sign of pain or a side effect of the Tramadol. I've also said that he has always panted a lot, but it seems he's doing it even more now. I'm not sure if what I'm seeing is really happening or if he's the same as he was the last time the doc saw him; but there's just something that just doesn't feel right. Call it mothers intuition, I don't know. He has an appt for acupuncture on Sunday and I'm going to talk to that doc about all of this. She and Dr. Harmon are both monitoring his progress so hopefully she be able to tell me something. Am I being a worry wart?
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Post by Pauliana on Mar 20, 2015 19:27:22 GMT -7
Hi Susi,
When the Prednisone drops down below the anti inflammatory dose it doesn't take long for it's effect to be known by Han's body.. Remember the Vet dropped him way down to every 3rd day..Anti inflammatory dose is 5mg every 12 hours. Once it drops below that, nothing is working on the swelling in the spinal cord. If the swelling had been gone, there would be no pain at all.
Yelping when outside walking is a sign of pain. Pain is a sign that the swelling is not gone yet. I would contact his vet and let them know what you are observing so they can return him to the twice daily dose of the Prednisone. He is also missing that middle of the day dose of his pain medication. I would add that back in until you hear back from the Vet.
Sending feel better wishes to Hans and to you too.. Let us know what the Vet says.
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Susi & Hans
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Mom of three grown human kids and three senior doxie furbabies that are the light of my life
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Post by Susi & Hans on Mar 21, 2015 0:28:35 GMT -7
He was only getting one pred every other day , not two a day. Even with this that low dose he was doing better than he is now. (When I asked her about why she was giving him such a smal dose of prednisone, she reply that it was NOT a tapering dose, but that it was a consistent dose. His poor little body has been through so much these past 8 weeks: 2 injections of dexamethasone, took Dex at least once a day, but irregularly. Changed vets who put him on pred, then surgery and all pred stopped for at least 10 days to two weeks, started pred again every other day for 6 doses; seems to do better after acupuncture,then I ask to start tapering him down and he begins to regress down, and I skip one does of pain meds, so he's hurting again.... And on and on and on... His body has been on so many meds so irregularly that it don't know what to do or feel. I'm just as confused... He has an appt for sunday, but I may have to at least call the vet tomorrow and have a talk with her to let her know what I'm seeing. She may want to see him, she may say just wait to sunday. At least I'll go back giving him his pain meds as I was before. Hopefully you get the gist of what I was saying here, it's late and I don't even know if my words are coming out straight Train thanks for letting vent... Susi
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Marjorie
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Post by Marjorie on Mar 21, 2015 6:09:25 GMT -7
If there's still swelling pressing on the nerves of the spine, he would need to be returned to the anti-inflammatory dosage of the Prednisone, which is 5 mg 2x/day. Possibly being on the lower dosage of the Pred hasn't been enough to resolve the swelling. I would speak to the vet about that today.
Yes, your little Hans has certainly been through a lot. Hugs and prayers that he'll soon be feeling better.
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Susi & Hans
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Mom of three grown human kids and three senior doxie furbabies that are the light of my life
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Post by Susi & Hans on Mar 22, 2015 23:48:14 GMT -7
Hans had his acupuncture treatment today. I got to speak to the vet about my concerns. She is not the one usually sees him on a regular basis. So this is what she's told me to do: give Hans one prednisone tab every day for a week and check back back with her then to let her know how he's doing. She didn't say anything about his pain meds so I'm going to give them to him like I have been. She gave me Acepromazine for a sedative, I gave him a 1/4 tab at 10:45 this morning and he was pretty much out of it since then other than wanting to eat and go outside to potty. Then he was like a wild man although he could hardly walk, it was almost like in the beginning. He began to pull on the leash so I just brought him inside and out him back in his crate. He was soon back to sleep. If I give him any more if that stuff it will be half of the quarter tablet, if that. Right now I feel like he's never going to get better. He's seen too many vets, had too many things happen to him, too many meds and med changes, too many opinions as to walk he can or can't do, should or shouldn't do. I am trying to follow the conservative treatment with strict crate rest, but I feel like I'm failing at that. I'm at a loss. I'm so confused right now that I can't think straight. I'm wiping myself out emotional and financially. I've gone thru this 4 times before with two other dogs and never did I have so much trouble. But then I had a vet who knew what she was doing. I can't afford to change vets again.
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Marjorie
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Post by Marjorie on Mar 23, 2015 4:41:01 GMT -7
Susi, can you call today and ask to speak to the vet who does see him on a regular basis and tell that vet your concerns? It sounds as though Hans is being strung out on a low dose of Prednisone that's not being effective in getting the swelling down.
Acupuncture can be helpful but getting the correct treatment overall is more important. If you're having difficulty financially with all of this and are not happy with the treatment given by the current vet, then hold off on the acupuncture and try to find someone more knowledgeable.
For some dogs Acepromazine works to excite them. It may not be the correct sedative for Hans. Why was that started at this point? Had he been more active in the crate and was there concern that he was moving too much?
You're not failing at anything, Susi. You're doing all that you can. Needing surgery in the middle of a disc episode has made Hans conservative care much more difficult. Let us know what the regular vet says after speaking to him/her today.
Blessings to you and Hans.
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Susi & Hans
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Mom of three grown human kids and three senior doxie furbabies that are the light of my life
Posts: 105
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Post by Susi & Hans on Mar 23, 2015 7:49:48 GMT -7
If I call the other vet to question the new dose of pred, either she'll agree to keep him on the one a day, or she'll put him back on one every other day. Isn't it better that he get the prednisone at least once a day instead of every other day? It's more than what he was getting before this taper. Ever since he went down he has not been on a normal dose of steroids, except at the very beginning when he was taking the dexamethasone twice a day for a few days. At least now he's as close to an anti-inflamatory dose as possible. It seems that staying here would be the best thing to do.
It was suggested by a mod here that I ask for a mild sedative to give him to keep him calmer in the crate because hebee was starting to fight going in it, then was fussing around inside it wanting to get out. I had been using Benedryl, but it only worked a little bit for a little while. When I referred to him as acting like "wild man", I meant that he wanted to get up and walk around the grass and I wasn't letting him. Otherwise he was calm, almost to the point of being sleepy all day long. He was able enough to let me know when he wanted to go outside though, and if there was food nearby.
One little side note that may explain why he wants to walk around so much outside. Hans is a poop eater. Once I was able to pretty much stop him from eating his own, he starting looking for other dogs feces. So that may be one reason why he fights so much to walk around so much.
I again was very upset last night when I wrote the post, I just didn't know how to express the frustration that I was (and still am) feeling. It almost like we are a close to the very beginning of this whole episode because right now Hans is barely even able to walk. It's like he started the "wobbly walk " phase all over. Instead of moving forward, he's backsliding. He's been in the crate for almost 8 weeks now and if things continue as they are, he'll be in another eight. I just want him to get better, to the best that is possible.
I think I'm going to stay away from the vets unless there's an urgent situation. I already decided to stop the acupuncture yesterday, and that vet agreed that he get stabilized on the prednisone being the most important thing.
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Post by Debbie Blackwelder on Mar 23, 2015 9:21:37 GMT -7
Susi, all of the moderators here at Dodgerslist do care about you and Hans. We are not vets but together we have had a lot of experience with IVDD. Mrs. Linda Stowe started Dodgerslist 13 years ago yesterday to help inform dog owners and vets about IVDD and stop the endless dogs being put to sleep because they were paralyzed and could not walk. Years ago surgery was the only option for a dog and that was it. Neurosurgeons now are finding that conservative treatment (treatment with crate rest and meds) is acceptable and indeed does work. Sometimes though surgery seems to be the best option for a dog that is paralyzed or is in a great deal of pain. Whether you are at that point or not we can not tell you that.
OPTION 1: We can not see or touch Hans so we depend on you to give us all of Hans information as it happens and keep us updated on his medications. I do know that surgery is not a financial option for you with Hans, so we are going to have to approach this as a conservative treatment only and get Hans the best medication we can to help him. Honestly if Hans is still walking (which you describe he is) and not fully paralyzed then conservative treatment is ok. The problem is you are dealing with vets who do not know and understand IVDD or there is a gap in communication. If we find you a Neurosurgeon within a 3 hour drive from your hometown of Glendale, AZ is it possible that you could find someone to take you there and can you afford it financially? I know you are on disability and that's ok, we all have problems in our on way and I truly understand where you are coming from. What is happening to you is you are spending tons of money on vets who you are not getting along with and some are giving you good medications but in the wrong doses and so forth, some are helping you and some don't. We need to find you a specialist in the area of IVDD and knows what is going on and you both can agree on Hans treatment. If we don't find someone knowledgeable about your situation I fear that Hans is going to continue on this path of not getting better. You are a good dachshund mom and you are doing your best, sometimes these things happen. You can think about what I have asked you and get back with us about what I asked.
1) If we help you find a Neurologist for Hans that is within a 3 hour drive of your home could you get someone to take you and could you afford it?
2) Have you contacted any rescue organizations close to you for help in finding an IVDD vet or them helping you possibly with Hans care?
OPTION 2:
I have gone back and read your entire thread again on Dodgerslist. There is basically every answer to any question you have asked in those posts. You have had a terrible time with Hans recovery. He got better, then worse, then better and then worse again. Treating a dog with IVDD is pretty basic. Right now you have so many people telling you so many things and you are confused about his treatment and feel like giving up. Please don't! You can do this! Hans is not near as bad as he could be right now. There are so many people on this forum with dogs who are paralyzed and can't walk and are waiting on healing to take place. Right now we just need to concentrate on getting him on the medications that will heal him, plus the crate rest and you not letting him move around. It is the movement that continues to tear the disc and not let it heal. We only use the steroid medicine to bring the swelling down in his back so it will prevent further damage to his nerves. And the pain medicine is simply for Hans pain.
You tell us Hans is getting worse. Again Susi, we are not vets and we don't claim to be, but 13 years of experience and help from neuro doctors that are nice enough to help us puts us in a place that we can help you. Some regular vets never see a IVDD case in their lives so they simply just use their best judgement on treating dogs that have IVDD.
Right now Hans needs a powerful steroid, such as the Prednisone that he is on. But he needs it 2 times a day until he is no longer in pain. When the pain leaves that would mean the swelling is going down. If he is in pain and his legs are getting worse it means there is still swelling in his back. So to help him means we need to find a vet that understands IVDD. I know you are in a tough situation with your health and his health but you need to breath. Hans can heal and everything is ok, it's not as bad as it could be.
So Option 2 would be to find someone local who will give you the Prednisone for Hans two times a day until he is no longer in pain or getting worse. Plus continue giving you the pain meds that Hans has been getting, and continue the Pepcid AC.
It will be ok!
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Susi & Hans
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Mom of three grown human kids and three senior doxie furbabies that are the light of my life
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Post by Susi & Hans on Mar 23, 2015 10:34:57 GMT -7
Hi Debbie, Thank you for your concern for Hans care, and for the suggestions you have given me. I very much appreciate it. I agree that that Hans is not get the care that he needs to heal. I have gotten so much advice from so many people that it has gotten me in a situation of not having an idea of what to do. I know that you are not vets, but that you have experience as owners of IVDD dogs and have researched the subject very thoroughly. I trust you more that I trust anyone else at this time.
As for the options that you have given me, I am interested in both, if nothing else to make some calls and see what the costs would be. If you could give me the name of someone within 3 hours of where I live I can get there. I honestly can't say that I can afford it. But again it's something I can check into.
I have asked for advice from local shelters about veterinarians that are experienced with treating dogs conservatively with IVDD. One is currently looking for a knew vet herself, and the other rescue is on the other side of the valley. At first I was not wanting to go that far, but I will contact Susan again, and ask who their vet is. Again it is something that Ican at least get information on costs etc.
I know that I am lucky that Hans is doing as well as he is in spite of all of the changes in vets and other challenges that he's had since he went down. I also am very cognizant that if he does not receive the proper care, he is not going to get better.
I don't know where I can find a vet, but like I said, I will call Susan Vaughn of Happy Tails Dachshund Rescue and see what she says.
Yes, I need to slow down, and breathe. I know that if I can't control my emotional state that I'm only making things worse for myself. Luckily I have a great support team that is doing their best to assist me with this. I will be seeing my doctor soon, and maybe some med adjustments will need to be made. I know that he is probably not going to be very supportive with all that I am doing for Hans, but I am going to hold my ground and do what I can to get him better.
So, if you can help me find someone within a 3 hour trip who can help, that would be a good resource for me. On my end, I will make the calls that I need to make.
I am also going to call the vet that Hans regularly sees, and tell her what the other vet has suggested. I am also going to request that we put Hans on Prednisone twice a day for a week, then try to taper him off from there. Hopefully she will be amenable to this. I will explain to her that I have done extensive research, and that everything says that it is the best way to go in treating IVDD. If you could point me to any information that I can print out to back me up, that would be helpful. I am now going to start to be strong and advocate for Hans. That has been hard for me to do in the past but it is necessary now.
Does this seem to be a good plan that I am preparing?
I want you know that I realize that I have posted many times not giving you the information that you need, and that they have been extremely emotional and probably have not made much sense at times. It's been mostly because I this is the only place where I can go and get consistent advice and support. I appreciate your patience with me. I know that Hans and I will get through this!
Thank you, Susi and Hans
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PaulaM
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Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
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Post by PaulaM on Mar 23, 2015 11:01:47 GMT -7
Susi, I'm sorry you are getting different pieces of information that make it so confusing. As always, before taking advice, know the credentials of those giving it. There is so much IVDD misinformation going on at FB and other web pages.
Here's the deal. His neuro functions were improving prior to March 20
March 20 taper starts and his neuro functions are going backwards. (knuckling, legs floppy). This is a clear picture that there is still painful swelling going on.
You know of all the vets you have had appointments with, which is more likely to prescribe being back on Prednisone at the anti-nflamamtory dose? Anything less than the anti-inflammatory dose is not going to help Hans. It is worth a phone call before pursuing the more expensive specialist consultation (see list hospitals below)
So today see if you can get a call in to the best of your vets. The vet needs concise facts so he knows what action to take. ---- Report prior to 3/20 Hans is not knuckling, can move legs. ---- With the 3/20 pred taper, Hans's leg functions are going backwards: he is knuckling, legs floppy, he yelps in pain. ---- Ace is not the right calmer for Hans. Benedryl is not the right calmer for Hans. He is not remaining calm in his recovery suite. Ask about Trazadone. Han's disc can't heal, can't avoid relapse when he is scratching to get out. ---- The most important $$ to spend at this point in time are for the meds to help get the swelling down and get that pain in control
Ask for his meds to be adjusted to: Prednisone back up to the anti-inflammatory dose: 5mg two times per day Tramadol 25mg three times/day Methcarbomol 125 mgs three times per day Gabapentin 100 mgs 2x/day Pepcid AC 5mg two times per day Trazadone, to help Hans relax. It often take trying several to find the one that works best for a dog.
First Regional Animal Hospital 1233 W Warner Rd Chandler, AZ 85224-2771 Phone:(480) 732-0018
Veterinary Speciality Center of Tucson (520) 795-9955 4909 N. LaCanada Dr. Tucson, AZ 85704
Veterinary Neurological Center 4202 E. Raymond St. Phoenix, AZ 85040-1935
Southwest Veterinary Surgical Service, PC 86 W Juniper Ave Ste 4 Gilbert, AZ 85233-4401 Phone:(480) 635-1110
Kupanoff Surgical PO Box 25964 Scottsdale, AZ 85255-0116 Phone:(480) 732-0018
Julie Lucas DVM DACVS Pima Medical Institute 2160 S Power Rd Mesa, AZ 85209-6681 Phone:(480) 998-9898
Associate Dean for Clinical Sciences Midwestern University 19555 N 59th Ave Glendale, AZ 85308-6813
Jeffrey Steurer, DVM, MS, DACVS-SA Southwest Veterinary Surgical Service, P.C. 6677 W Thunderbird Rd Ste L188 Glendale, AZ 85306-3761 Phone:(623) 298-5354
Michael J. Singer, DVM, DACVS-SA Southern Arizona Veterinary Specialty and Emergency Center 7474 E Broadway Blvd Tucson, AZ 85710-0406 Phone:(520) 888-3177 Phone:(623) 523-3045
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Susi & Hans
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Mom of three grown human kids and three senior doxie furbabies that are the light of my life
Posts: 105
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Post by Susi & Hans on Mar 23, 2015 11:04:38 GMT -7
I've already made the call. The vet is not in today I I asked for her to call tomorrow. I more questions to see if I should bring them up to her. 1. Hans has been receiving several different doses and two type of steroids since 1/28. Dr Harmon is the one who put him on the 1 tablet of pred every other day, and he was getting sporadic acupuncture. He was improving at that dose. What if she doesn't agree with putting him on twice a day, since he was improving on the original dose that she had him on? Do I just tell her that what I have found in my research that twice a day is the anti-inflamatory dose?
2. Why is Ace not the correct sedative for him? Is it knocked him out so completely yesterday after only 1/4 tab? What make Trazadone a better sedative for him? I know that it will be much much less expensive for me!
3. She wants to allow Hans to be allowed to walk around a bit during the day. What can I say that having him on the strict crate rest is the best thing for him until he is off all of his meds?
I agree that having him on the correct dosages of meds is going to give Hans the best change at recovery. I hope that I can convince of this. I really don't want to have to say that I will need to go to yet another vet. if I do, of of the vets on the list is just down the street from the current vets office!
Wish me luck
Thank you, thank you, thank you!
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,606
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Post by PaulaM on Mar 23, 2015 12:06:20 GMT -7
You reported some time ago after ACE that Hans seemed to be wired up. If you believe ACE is a good calmer, he may need only a smaller amount so that the edge is off but he is not completely doped up as your reported yesterday. Let your vet know, so he can suggest a smaller dose of ACE. We see 1000s of vet vets knowledgeable about a disc episode here on the Forum having good results of getting swelling down faster using the higher end of the prednisone range and at the higher 2x/day dosing. Anti-inflammatory doses range from 0.1 to 0.3 mg per pound (0.2 to 0.6 mg/kg) up to twice daily. Dr. Dawn Ruben Prednisone / Prednisolone www.petplace.com/DrugLibrary/prednisone-prednisolone/page1.aspx last accessed 8/13/2014 ===== "Neurologic disease is commonly treated with antiinflammatory drugs, including steroids (0.5 mg/kg PO q12h, tapering over 2–6 weeks)"Dani Powers, DVM and Kristin Kirkby Shaw, DVM, MS, PhD, DACVS, DACVSMR. Distinguishing Musculoskeletal from Neurologic Disease. Clinician's Brief March 2015. p103 www.cliniciansbrief.com/sites/default/files/attachments/ASK_Distinguishing%20Musculoskeletal%20from%20Neurologic%20Disease.pdfWhy a dog can't walk around during the day if the disc is going to be given an opportunity to heal. 100% STRICT crate rest 24/7 is the single most important part of conservative treatment. Muscle tone will quickly return after graduation day when it is safe to resume physical activity. On the other hand if the nerves are permanently damaged from too much movement, Hans will have been cheated out of the opportunity to self heal his nerves.
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Susi & Hans
New Member
Mom of three grown human kids and three senior doxie furbabies that are the light of my life
Posts: 105
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Post by Susi & Hans on Mar 23, 2015 12:29:08 GMT -7
Ok, more things to print to back me up when I talk with Dr Harmon tomorrow. Hans has only taken the Ace one time which was yesterday. For the most part he was very doped up. He got very wired only when he went outside and wanted to walk around and I wouldn't let him, and then when he ate, but that eating behavior is normal for him. I must have over exaggerated what happened outside due to the emotional state I was in. When I spoke with the doctor who prescribed it, I told her that it doped him up way too much on the lowest dose recommended, and asked if I could cut that in 1/4 tab in half, to which she agreed. I apologize for the miscommunication.
Now to update you on what I've done with the list of clinics you gave me. I called all of the them that in the valley, and their fees were pretty exorbitant. The Midwestern University Pet Clinic would be the best place for me to go if I need to. Hans would be seen by a general practice vet first, maybe I can get the proper medication management right there, if Dr Harmon is not amenable to the changes I would like her to make. Hopefully she will be. If so, then I'll probably be asking here what would/should happen next. (I know, you aren't vets, but you have much more knowledge than I do!) Again, I ask you to wish me luck that my conversation with Dr Harmon will go well. Thanks for the 100th time.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,606
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Post by PaulaM on Mar 23, 2015 13:42:14 GMT -7
With any new vet visit you'll want to be up front about your financial situation. That way a vet has a basis to make suggestions on treatments, meds. etc. Vets also like the facts in order with dates and details vs. a complicated novel type story. You may wish to look back through all your postings to list dates of meds, the results of neuro functions or pain. You will want to review for yourself about the two classes of anti-inflammatories to understand if a vet talks about switching anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAID/steroids), washout, which class is the more powerful, maybe d/l and print our the ref card all on this page: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingsweling.htmWell lets see if your current vet tomorrow will be amenable to expedite getting this swelling down by moving to the higher dose and higher frequency of Prednisone. Got my fingers crossed she will be.
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Susi & Hans
New Member
Mom of three grown human kids and three senior doxie furbabies that are the light of my life
Posts: 105
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Post by Susi & Hans on Mar 23, 2015 14:04:54 GMT -7
Let's just be positive that she will be! I'll be sure toilet you know.
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Susi & Hans
New Member
Mom of three grown human kids and three senior doxie furbabies that are the light of my life
Posts: 105
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Post by Susi & Hans on Mar 24, 2015 18:24:51 GMT -7
Does the word HOORAY mean anything to you? She said yes to everything, woohoo! To celebrate the happy news, I was naughty and gave each dog a cheeseburger from Burger King for dinner. We all deserved to celebrate! Thanks to you, I had the real courage to advocate for my dog, I couldn't have done it without your help and support!
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Post by Pauliana on Mar 24, 2015 19:59:52 GMT -7
Delighted to hear that, Susi! Wonderful news!
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Post by Debbie Blackwelder on Mar 24, 2015 20:32:13 GMT -7
Way to go Susi!!!! I am so proud of you and Hans I know is thankful. When you read all of this info and take it all in then you are in a much better position to know and understand what Hans needs and advocate for it. Good luck with your little boy getting well and God be with you. Prayers, Debbie
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,606
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Post by PaulaM on Mar 25, 2015 15:11:44 GMT -7
Susi, you are the best.... what a good job of laying out the facts so the vet would know adjustments needed to be made.
Just so we all are on the same page, would you mind checking this list and correcting it?
Prednisone as of 3/24: 5mg 2x/day Tramadol 25mg 3x/day Methcarbomol 125 mgs 3x/day Gabapentin 100 mgs 2x/day Pepcid AC 5mg 2x/day Acepromazine 1/4 of a 25 mg tab.
Now that Hans is back on pred 5mg 2x/day, have you seen any changes in yelps in pain, knuckling or floppy legs? Nerve diminishment can take more than a couple of hours to reverse or even into months.
But we, of course, want to hear there are no signs of pain such as yelping, not moving much, shaking. Let us know the details about Hans.
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