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Post by Rob & Oliver on Jan 1, 2015 8:24:10 GMT -7
Hi Linda and everyone. Happy new year. So, oliver has apparently had a new incident, wouldn't move or walk this am, knew immediately that it was a disk thing, took him to Blue Pearl vet hospital (NYC) and after full evaluation, he has our IVDD issue and is now on
Rymdyl and
Tramadol and pen rest. He ate full meal just now, had nice poop after walking out of vet, but it's super upsetting to me so just wanted to reach out to you.
All support and thoughts will be well appreciated. Rob
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PaulaM
Moderator. 
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,586
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Post by PaulaM on Jan 1, 2015 12:43:40 GMT -7
Rob, welcome to Dodgerslist. So sorry to hear the New Year is not starting well for Oliver. Of importance you knew to crate at once to keep symptoms mild. I'm not too clear on the walking out of the vet, you mean you walked out carrying Oliver? With a bit more info we'll better be able to make comments specific to Oliver: ☐ What breed is Oliver? ☐ Just to review are you doing rest the same as 100% STRICT crate rest 24/7 only out for a very, very few footstep at potty for th length of time it takes to heal a disc (8 weeks)? In particular that means no laps, no couch, no sleeping in bed with you, no meandering, scooting or dragging around during potty times. No baths, no chiro (aka VOM)? ☐ Is there still currently pain - shivering, trembling, yelping when picked up or moved, reluctant to move much or slow to move, tight tense tummy? ☐ How much does Oliver weigh? ☐ Please list the exact names of meds currently given, their doses in mg's and times per day given? What was the start dose if a steroid, date of taper? Please include the all important stomach protector such as Pepcid AC. Phrase the question to your vet this particular way:" Is there a medical/health reason for my dog not take Pepcid?" If there is no reason, we follow vets who are proactive in stomach protection by giving doxies Pepcid (famotidine) 30 minutes before the Rimadyl and every 12 hours thereafter. Give the Rimady with a meal ☐ Currently does Oliver wobbly walk? move the legs at all? or wag the tail when you do some happy talk? ☐ Can your dog specifically sniff and squat and then release urine or do you find wet bedding or leaks on you when lifted up? ☐ Poops OK - normal firmness & color -no dark or bright red blood? ☐ If there is pain or neuro diminishment, dogs can benefit greatly with acupuncture or laser light therapy. These therapies can be be started right away to help relieve pain and to also to kick start energy production in nerve cells to sprout. So if this therapy is in your budget, seek out a holistic vet. ahvma.org/Widgets/FindVet.html www.serenityvetacupuncture.com/index.php/faq_/ [one vet's overview/prices] Chiropractic is not recommended for IVDD dogs. |
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Post by Rob & Oliver on Jan 3, 2015 11:46:08 GMT -7
Hi Paula. Thanks for response and let me respond back, sorry its taken so long to get back to you. Oliver is long hair mini dachshund, 14 pounds. I'm doing the strict x-pen rest,
14 lbs
Rymdyl 2x/day and
Tramadol 2x/day,, also using
Bryonia which is a homeopathic pill, and just picked up
pepcid AC.
I went through this once before last spring. Nothing eventful led to this new incident, but it did occur me it could possibly be related to his playing with his toys as he shakes them around pretty aggressively (mostly after meals when he gets an energy boost) and thus shaking his whole body.
He doesn't seem to be in any pain. Has been resting all day yesterday and today. The vet hosp did full neuro evaluation and he checked out fine, no wobblies, nothing more serious than his initial thing this am which started as being unwilling to walk, come up the ramp to my bed, all the things he usually does. Which is why I knew immediately there was a problem.
No problem thus far with peeing and pooping, took a #2 and peed after vet when I walked him by leash outside for a moment before putting back in my carry case which has a very firm bottom.
Anyway, the initial shock of it all is over and im going to be vigilant in how I deal with him but any further thoughts are welcome from you and all members. Oh, one thing, I understand the "STRICT" crate/pen rest but poor oliver looks so pitiful, i wonder if I can leave him to roam on my small first floor which has no stairs and I picked up both ramps. He just lies around anyway but its worse when he gives me that dachshund 'feel bad for me' stare. Thoughts please.
Thanks. Robert
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,586
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Post by PaulaM on Jan 3, 2015 13:15:33 GMT -7
Robert, those liquid sad eyes can, indeed, lull one into allowing unsafe actions in the at-home hospital. What saves us from cheating on crate rest is a full understanding of the disease we are dealing with. The disk will only heal when there is limited movement of the back. Thankfully conservative treatment is not rocket science. However if you are like me when it happens to your own dog, the mind can get a little mushy in thinking things through. We need people to point out the obvious to us, I know I did! So here are my pointers to you. The area for the recovery suite must necessarily be no larger than enough room to turn around and when lying down to fully stretch out the legs. Roaming, meandering are all big huge NO NOs in providing the right environment for the disk to heal. Movement while the disc is in the early stages of forming scar tissue can easily cause it to tear. The details on doing conservative treatment---very good to re- review: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingpage.htmThis is good news you are not seeing any pain. Tramadol is so short acting that typically pain is not fully controlled unless given every eight hours at an appropriate dose in mgs. So you know if pain should surface, alert the vet of your observations and be assured the vet has plenty of options to maintain full pain control dose to dose. Good job on getting the Pepcid AC! You are giving Pepcid AC every 12 hours? What is the dose in mg? I have not come across any vet nor neuro specialist prescribing Bryonia since I've been here in 2007 over the course of well over 5000+ dogs, so I had to look it up. Did you also do the same? Our recommendation is that owners look up and read about each of their dog's drugs. What was the thinking behind the vet Rxing Bryonia? Was the vet a general DVM vet or a specialist (neuro) ACVIM or ortho (ACVS)? I would question the use of Bryonia for my own dog during a disc episode and would want to know exactly why it was prescribed since this is quite a toxic product. Bryonia's side effect could mask some serious side effects of Rimadyl that would demand prompt action to stop Rimadyl. Know your Rimadyl and what you should be monitoring for and when to stop Rimadyl to get vet help: www.fda.gov/AnimalVeterinary/ResourcesforYou/AnimalHealthLiteracy/ucm196295.htm Stomach and intestinal (gastrointestinal, GI) disorders: There are many reasons not to use bryonia. It can cause serious side effects and death. Additionally, it can irritate the stomach and intetines and can make GI problems worse. www.webmd.com/vitamins-supplements/ingredientmono-46-bryonia.aspx?activeingredientid=46&activeingredientname=bryoniaMany of us do feel intimidated to question a professional. The goal of our Forum is to support you, to teach you to learn to look up things, question everything and read so you become the most important part of your dog's health care team. You will want to be an integral part of making decisions and work closely with the vet you have hired. Dr. Nancy Kay, DVM, ACVIM highly recommends this kind of relationship with your vet: "Gone are the days when you simply followed your vet's orders and asked few, if any questions. The vet is now a member of your dog's health-care team, and you get to be the team captain!" www.speakingforspot.com/PDF/Medical%20Advocacy%20101.pdf
At potty times a harness and 6 foot leash will control speed and keep footsteps to minimum as you stand in one spot. An ex-pen in the grass is an excellent alternative to minimizing footsteps with the physical and visual to indicate there will be no sniff festing going on! NOTE a sling is only for the wobbly dog to keep the back aligned and the rear from tipping over.
Oliver is a very good candidate for Conservative treatment, thanks to your observation of pain and getting prompt vet help. Kudos to you as that kept the mild symptom mild. Please keep us updated we are hoping to hear the next 8 weeks of 100% STRICT crate rest only out at potty time for a very, very few footsteps will have the disc forming good secure scar tissue. Until graduation day, you may wish to peek ahead to see if anything in addition to your ramps can be a part of after crate rest procedure: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/AfterCrateRest.htm
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Post by Rob & Oliver on Jan 3, 2015 13:35:00 GMT -7
Pepcid AC 5 MG. Bryonia is homeopathic, vet did not Rx, she just had no problem with it. Anyway, thanks for the clear input, am going to x-pen my baby (with his liquid eyes) now. )-: poor boy
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Post by Rob & Oliver on Jan 3, 2015 13:37:26 GMT -7
Just did it...
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,586
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Post by PaulaM on Jan 3, 2015 13:58:57 GMT -7
What is the reason to use Bryonia? Homeopathic does not mean inherently safe just as FDA approved does not mean inherently safe. The safety comes with a vet using in a safe manner with other meds, and owners who know all about the product.
Good work of getting Oliver is a nice safe recovery suite. Remember each time you lift and carry him to the potty spot, give lots of hugs and kisses. That should be about every 4-6 hours he'll be receiving all that affection!
Pepcid AC 5mg 2x/day?
OK, so now you know we are persnickety ...we are a group who LOVE the detail! LOL
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Post by Rob & Oliver on Jan 3, 2015 14:26:22 GMT -7
Hey Paula. I totally get it and appreciate it. And it's only from finding this site a year ago after his first episode that I am well educated now, connected to best neurologist in NYC and our fabulous and kind Linda who I was emailing with also today. We love our dachshunds and it's all about education and vigilance as dogs can't speak so we must be their advocates. (-: have a good day and I'll update the site in a few days.
Oh, having acupuncture laser treatment in-home on Monday.
Dear moderators -- my dog is whimpering terribly from the confinement. What do u suggest??
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,586
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Post by PaulaM on Jan 4, 2015 12:43:09 GMT -7
Rob, first rule out whimpers are not related to any hint of pain issues: shivering, trembling, yelping when picked up or moved, reluctant to move much or slow to move, tight tense tummy If not pain, then you will have to help him relax in his recovery suite. Using any oral calmer in combination with a Pheromone diffuser seems to work best. It takes several days for these to start working - it isn't immediate but they are a much better option if you can avoid heavy duty prescription sedatives such as Acepromazine, Trazodone, etc. Of course always keep your vet in the loop on all things you give your dog. Other product brands may be available in your area or on-line… just shop by the active ingredient(s) on the label and the quantity for best price. Place a DAP pheromone diffuser at floor level where the recovery suite is. Some brands to consider: --Comfort Zone (DAP) wall plug-in diffuser 48ml www.petcomfortzone.com/dogs.html --Adaptil (DAP) wall plug in diffuser 48ml www.adaptil.com/ Use a diffuser with one oral calmer from below: 1) ANXITANE® S chewable tabs contain 50 mg L-Theanine, an amino acid that acts neurologically to help keep dogs calm, relaxed www.virbacvet.com/products/detail/anxitane-l-theanine-chewable-tablets/behavioral-health 2) Composure Soft Chews are colostrum based like calming mother's milk and contain 21 mg of L-Theanine. www.vetriscience.com/composure-soft-dogs-MD-LD.php Consider some of these ideas: -- Many members have found a pet stroller to solve the whining problem because the stroller can be wheeled from room to room as you go about your activities. Pet strollers, however, should only be used when you are directly supervising. More details on strollers: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/strollers.htm-- Put a garment you have been wearing and have not washed in the crate. -- At night, try placing the crate on a sturdy bedside table to sleep next to you. -- During the day try the coffee table or the dinning room table so there will be a view out a window and a better perspective on what is going on in the house from a high. -- Make the crate or ex-pen more cozy by draping a blanket over part of the top. Play classical music or one of the wildlife TV shows. And lastly see if you think smart little Oliver is trying to train you to get attention or maybe you might be inadvertently training for unwanted behavior. To dogs rewards are: food, looking at them, talking to them, eye contact, approaching the crate, petting. So anytime you see unwanted behavior ignore it, turn your back, leave the room if you have to. Preferable is to start teaching what you do want before there is too much practice in doing the unwanted behavior. Anytime Oliver is sitting or lying down quietly, give a reward. Soon he will see he gets rewards for four feet on the floor, quietly sitting, etc. |
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Post by Rob & Oliver on Jan 4, 2015 12:52:52 GMT -7
Thanks Paula. I've also heard Benadryl works well. True? And doggie Rescue Remedy
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,586
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Post by PaulaM on Jan 4, 2015 14:24:17 GMT -7
Yes, plain benadryl (diphenhydramine) has the side effect of making sleepy, calming. You would get the dose from your vet. It may take trying out Rescue Remedy or another calmer along with the DAP diffusor to see which works best with Oliver.
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Post by Michelle & Oscar on Jan 5, 2015 7:39:59 GMT -7
Hi Rob-
My dog, Oscar, responded well to DAP spray on his crate bedding, Composure chews, and I also ordered him a self-warming crate pad so he would be extra cozy. My NYC apt is ancient so there's a lack of outlets, but I'm sure the DAP diffuser would also work well. I was able to get all on Amazon.
Good luck!
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Post by Rob & Oliver on Jan 5, 2015 12:10:02 GMT -7
Thanks Michelle. I will look into those items. My stomach's in knots keeping him confined. Too much identification going on for me. But I'm going to keep him there as I know he needs that. Hope ur dog recovers well too!!!
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Post by Hannah & Rusty on Jan 27, 2015 17:48:41 GMT -7
Hope Oliver is doing well !!! My rusty seems to be getting better ") day by day, even tho this crate rest is killing me, I know he wants out.
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Post by Rob & Oliver on Jan 28, 2015 10:02:18 GMT -7
Oliver is doing great. Glad rusty is mending, and yes, keeping them confined is hard but necessary
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,586
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Post by PaulaM on Jan 28, 2015 10:10:07 GMT -7
Rob, is Oliver still on meds? If he is, have you and the vet discussed when there will be a stop to all meds to verify if all the swelling is gone in the spinal cord?
14 lbs
Rymdyl 2x/day and
Tramadol 2x/day,, also using
Bryonia which is a homeopathic pill, and just picked up
pepcid AC.
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Post by Rob & Oliver on Jan 30, 2015 7:55:44 GMT -7
We were able to stop meds around day 7 or 8; around 3 weeks ago. Aside from "pen-rest", weekly Acupunture with e-stim, laser therapy and sonogram treatments administered my NYC vet who does house calls, I have Oliver on Zeel and Traumeel, both homeopathics 2x per day 1/2 pill of each. I went over this with Blue Pearl head of neurology and Oliver's doc who read about the natural ingredients in both pills and said "it can't hurt and can definitely help." You should google these homeopaths and you'll see why he sees the added benefit for IVDD dogs. Still keeping him on super low activity but he shies no clinical signs or indications of a continuing problem, although we know this is a chronic disease. Which is why I'ts been suggested I continue these pills [Zeel, Traumeel] forever to support his natural immunity and anti-inflammation systems.
And yes, the clinical 'touch' test, moving slowly up and down the spine, as administered by BOTH my vets showed zero signs of discomfort or inflammation
[ since gradutated
www.dodgerslist.com/forumads/Graduate.jpg ]
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Jill & Maddie
New Member
11/2014 conserve; relapse 12/13
Posts: 30 
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Post by Jill & Maddie on Jan 30, 2015 8:11:23 GMT -7
Rob I am interested in providing my vet with info on Zeel and Traumeel for my dog. Do you have a link that you can provide to me with information and where can you purchase if she thinks this is something that would be good for my Maddie. Thanks!
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Marjorie
Moderator~ 
Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,724
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Post by Marjorie on Jan 30, 2015 8:21:47 GMT -7
Hi, Rob. By "still keeping him on super low activity", I do hope that you're referring to continuing 100% 24/7 strict crate rest, carried in and out to do potty with only a very few steps at potty time and then back in the crate. I think that's what you mean since you mention "pen-rest" but just want to make sure. When were the Zeel and Traumeel started? From what I can see of these two homeopathic remedies, they are for temporary relief of pain and inflammation, which is what the Rimadyl and Tramadol were for. My concern is that these homeopathic meds may be masking pain and there may not be proof that all swelling is gone. Were these homeopathic meds being given during the exams that indicated no discomfort or inflammation? If the Rimadyl and Tramadol were stopped for a period of time and there was no sign of pain, then what is the reason for the continuation of Zeel and Traumeel? The main ingredient in these is Arnica, which reduces pain and inflammation. If the pain/swelling is gone, why does the vet feel they should be continued for life? I don't see anything indicating that it helps the immune system. If you could clarify the benefits, that would be appreciated. Here is our page on supplements that are believed to be helpful to an IVDD dog: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/Supplements.htm |
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