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Post by Pauliana on Dec 31, 2014 20:40:45 GMT -7
Posted for Cindy:
Hey I am new to this forum my dog Chloe who is 12 years old had surgery on her back October 6 she went through the water therapy for two months and did well then decided she did not want to do it anymore it is now been three months since her surgery and she is still not walking I have started acupuncture with her and tomorrow will be her second time she goes to the bathroom really well and is happy dog just wanted to know how long this might take for her to begin to walk again she is on Rimadyl and tramadol I still feel she might be in some discomfort because she has problems sleeping at night her surgeon and therapist said she should be walking but she's a stubborn dog and just doesn't want to I really don't believe that what are your thoughts on this thank you for your help
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Post by Pauliana on Dec 31, 2014 20:53:41 GMT -7
Hi Cindy! Welcome to Dodgerslist! We are really glad you have joined us. I can tell you one of the most important things you can do for your dog is self education about the disease your dog was born with. Knowledge is to make sure the right things are being done for best recovery. And for yourself, knowledge lets you step out of a very scary place…"the unknown" and the toll it can take on emotions. Is there still currently pain - shivering, trembling, yelping when picked up or moved, reluctant to move much or slow to move, tight tense tummy? Has Chloe been on Rimadyl and Tramadol (dosage and the frequencies given?) since the surgery? Or has she been started on them more recently? Is she taking Pepcid AC prior to the Rimadyl to protect her stomach? Always give Rimadyl with a meal for additional protection. Phrase the question to your vet this particular way:" Is there a medical/health reason for my dog not take Pepcid?" If there is no reason, we follow vets who are proactive in stomach protection by giving doxies 5mg Pepcid (famotidine) 30 minutes before the anti-inflammatory. Eating and drinking OK? Poops OK - normal firmness & color -no dark or bright red blood? REGAINING NEUROLOGICAL FUNCTION has no time limit for nerves to heal. Nerve repair is individual as each injury is different and each dog’s ability to heal is different. If deep pain perception (DPP) is present, even in paralyzed legs, there is a chance your dog may be able to walk again. For those dogs who have lost DPP, do know nerve regeneration can take place and that function may return. Once deep pain perception is regained, your dog has a chance at a walking recovery. Thousands of dogs on Dodgerslist have regained functions in as little as 2 weeks, others 11 months, and still others 3 years later. IVDD is a disease of patience to allow the body to heal on its own terms. I am glad you started Acupuncture, it stimulates the cell’s metabolism that leads to the body’s natural repair abilities, so that should be helpful for Chloe. Get ready to fight this disease with this current episode and in the future by knowing how you can help now. There is no better place to start than on our "All Things IVDD" page at t his link: www.dodgerslist.com/literature. So the whole family knows what things are emergencies tape this flyer to your fridge : www.dodgerslist.com/literature/FridgeInfo81907.pdf This is a comprehensive "must-have" $3 DVD on IVDD to add to your arsenal of educational resources. Friends, family and those who will be caring for your dog should also watch this DVD www.dodgerslist.com/store/DVDorder.htm
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Post by Cindy & Chloe on Jan 2, 2015 15:21:43 GMT -7
Hi this is just more information about Chloe she had both her knees surgically fixed back in March 2014 never quite recovered from it and then the vet noticed it was also neurological I took her to a neurologist they tried conservative therapy with steroids and acupuncture that did not workshe began to lose all her movements in her legs did another MRI and found out the disc was now pressing 50% on her spine before it was 25 Chloe is a 12-year-old should sue so I had the surgery done October 6 and they did not tell me to crate rest her they said that was the worst thing to do they now believe just to let the dogjust rest and get up if it needs to well Chloe never did get up and she still is not walking she went through the treadmill water therapy for two months and decided she hated it so would not cooperate I think the therapist kind a got discouraged with her because Chloe can be very stubborn the surgeon said the surgery went well and she should be walking but she still is not I am now started taking her back to acupuncture and she is now on her second time she's a good dog she has all her feelings and her legs just that her muscle mad is low because she is not walking I take her on walks as much as I can her feet drag at her toenails bleed I do leg exercises with her I even bought a life jacket and put her in the bathtub to swim I don't knowwhat else I could do for her I reading other posts and hearing that it takes time but it's so very hard when I've done so much and committed so much of my time for her and not seeing any results any major results anyway little results her tail wags a lot but she cries not because she's in pain but because she is aggravated I'm sure because she can't walk I do have another dog her brother Max and she doesn't want to play with him or anything either I just feel alone and all this and would just like a little support while I'm going through this with Chloe I didn't realize it would be so time-consuming and so heartbreaking and just the feeling of being alone I'm sure many people are going through this also and I wish everybodyThe best of luck and if you could send some my way LOL thank you Cindy Piper and Chloe Rose
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Post by Cindy & Chloe on Jan 2, 2015 19:18:48 GMT -7
My 12 your old shih tuz had surgery October 6 I was told not to crate her that they don't believe in that anymore so Chloe was never created but it's not like she ran around anywhere either does anybody else have that experience were there surgeon said not to crate ?I was just wondering because mine was totally against it saiddogs for reconquer better when they're moving then crated.
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Post by Pauliana on Jan 2, 2015 20:10:11 GMT -7
I can give you my experience, Cindy.. My Tyler, also A Shih Tzu, had his surgery on Jan 28, 2013 at Purdue University Veterinary Teaching Hospital, by their Neurology team, for a disc herniation in his lumbar area.. I was told to crate him for 6 weeks but short 3 minute walks for PT were encouraged 4 times a day. They examined him every 2 weeks and each time increased his walking times.. He had a walking recovery.. He has had 3 other mild episodes with no loss of walking ability and we have always treated him with crate rest during his episodes, to avoid further damage to his spine.
Answers about IVDD surgery written for Dodgerslist June 2011 by Dr. Andrew Isaacs, DVM, ACVIM (Neurology) of Dogwood Veterinary Referral Center
During the post-op healing process why is crate rest prescribed and for how long?
Crate rest is important post-operatively to help prevent damage to the surgical site. If a dog gets too active bleeding can occur that leads to a hematoma (blood clot) compressing the spinal cord. Also, it takes 2-4 weeks for the rent/hole in the intervertebral disk to heal and seal over. So, if a dog gets too active post-operatively additional disk material can rupture and we are right back or worse than we were to to begin with. Therefore, it is very important to keep your dog strictly confined for 2 weeks and then after rechecking with the surgeon at 2 weeks devising a plan to slowly reintroduce activity. Lifelong, there needs to be a lifestyle change to minimize activities that can put the dog at risk at a later date in life. How does the physical activity of PT fit in with the concept of providing crate rest? Physical therapy (PT) is performed in a controlled setting. Therefore, the activity is not high impact and does not run the risk of causing harm.
When can PT usually be started? Some mild, low impact PT can start the day after surgery. Every dog’s temperament is different and the PT has to be tailored to the individual and the degree of neurological deficits.
Why is PT ok, but not allowed for a dog to scoot around the house, sit on the couch or be harness and leash free at potty times? PT is performed in a controlled setting. If not supervised, there is the risk of activity causing too much stress on the surgical site and causing harm.
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Post by Pauliana on Jan 2, 2015 21:45:17 GMT -7
Hi Cindy, Your Chloe needs serious paw protection to keep her toenails from bleeding. It isn't a good idea to let her drag without protection.. Tyler has Pawz for the winter, the protect his paws from the ice and snow.. These are also durable enough to protect the paws.. They come 12 to a package and they last a long time. In fact we are using the ones from last winter for this winter. pawzdogboots.com/about/It would be much better for her to have a cart so she can have fun outside and run like the wind again.. It would also help her to gain strength.. There have been more than a few dogs that have gone on to walk after some time in a wheel cart.. www.dodgerslist.com/links/cart.htm Here is Paula Milner's Clark in his cart: This is Oscar:
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Post by Cindy & Chloe on Jan 2, 2015 23:08:45 GMT -7
Hi Paulina ,I saw the paw boots today at Petsmart and was gong to buy then but I dident thy just looked like balloons lol but to know that you have used them and thy work I'm going back to get them tomarrow ! I'm nerves to get a cart for Chloe I don't want to give up on her.can she still gain muscle mass using a cart I know noting about them but I herd eddies wheels are a good company but expensive.but I know it's important to get it could fit in a good car for I don't I don't want to go with anything cheap I want to make sure her back stays in good health and condition what are your experiences with carts?
I alsobought her a life jacket and put her in the bathtub and she really likes to swim around in the tub much better then the treadmill water therapy were she would cryI don't know if this would be a good time to get a cart because of the winter and we get a lot of snow here in Chicago so can you also use the card inside the house to?
What kind of sling is best to use?
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Marjorie
Moderator~
Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,724
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Post by Marjorie on Jan 3, 2015 8:33:27 GMT -7
I also use Pawz on my dog Jeremy and they work well to protect his feet. Carts can be used as therapy. You'd need to get a cart that allows the dog's hind feet to touch the ground. My cart allows the feet to touch the ground and also has the ability to raise the feet. My Jeremy had a Walkin' Wheels, which is custom made and not quite as expensive as Eddie's Wheels. I was very pleased with it. Carts can be used inside but are not made for all day use - just for an hour or two. You're not giving up on her by getting a cart. My Jeremy had a cart and he left it behind and walked on his own. A sling can be anything that works for you - an ace bandage, a long scarf, a rolled up towel. A sling can be made from an old sweatshirt: www.lyonpuffpetsit.com/htmlslp/sling.htmlor from two leashes: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/cratesupplies/Figure8.jpg
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Post by Cindy & Chloe on Jan 3, 2015 9:58:44 GMT -7
Thank you Marjorie ,im going to get her a cart so walking. Wheels is a good a reliable one? How long did it take your Jeremy to walk ? I'm so hoping my chloe still has a chance thank you for your help it really makes me feel better!☺️
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,610
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Post by PaulaM on Jan 5, 2015 8:55:35 GMT -7
Cindy, just trying to see where where neuro functions are so we have information to give the best comment... you say that Chloe CAN wag her tail specifically when you do some happy talk? --- What about bladder control? Can she sniff an old spot in the snow/grass and then make the choice to release urine there? ---- Have you seen the back legs move at all such as when she wants to reposition her body from side to side? Do her back legs move in a walking motion in the bathtub? If you ARE seeing she has bladder control or maybe can move her back legs but can't hold weight to walk on land yet, you may wish to have a cart as part of her PT and to give some freedom to move when outside. Carts are normally NOT used in the house because a dog will get caught in furniture legs, etc. If Chloe is dragging her back legs, then inside the house you should look into garments that will protect from floor or rug abrasion. Look to #6 for these kinds of garments www.dodgerslist.com/literature/AfterCrateRest.htm Here is Ollie's cape for a dog whose legs are like a seal behind them. If the legs are frog like something like the BumPad would be the choice. There are carts ranging from under $100 to top of the line Eddies $300. How much does Chloe weigh? One thing to consider is how heavy is the cart materials/metal. For a small dog a custom cart might be a better choice than adjustable ones that usually are heavier in weight for a small dog to pull. The choice in wheelchair depends on your budget and where Chloe is in nerve function. IF there is bladder control, some leg movement then you may want to investigate an under $100 Dogs to Go cart as both a PT device and possibly short term use to allow Chloe to go on walks. Here are the features to look for in a cart for an IVDD dog: www.dodgerslist.com/links/cart.htm
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Post by Cindy & Chloe on Jan 5, 2015 12:53:06 GMT -7
Hi Paula thanks for responding, yes Chloe does he have bladder control and she can sniff spots of other dogs urine and that makes her go most of the time she wags her tail all the time when she's happy her front legs are fine but she still doesn't like to pull her self up when I put her in the bathtub with her lifeJacketthat she does swimming around in with her legs she's getting acupuncture also she just needs to build muscles to pull herself up the surgeon says that the surgery went well she should be able to get up and walk yet she hasn't I did order a cart for her yesterday from walking wheelsit's a mini cartso I hope that will a help her I'll have to use it in the house since there's snow here now but we have a basementswhere there is a floor and she can run around down there I think that would help her she had water therapy with the treadmill for two months and started out fine and then just didn't like it anymore she refused to walk in the water I know it sounds funny but I think she decided she didn't like the physical therapist she was a little rough with Chloe and finally told me it was my last visit when I had three more appointments and she said – just consider Chloe not walking anymore because it's too stressful some people shouldn't be in the animalBusiness.it all started last March when I noticed Chloe was swaying when she walked and my vet told me to see an orthopedic which we know Chloe had very bad knees so she had surgery the end of March on both her knees and kind of a recoveredfrom that but still was swinging out walking right so in August I took her to a neurologist and they took an MRI and said that her disks was pushing on her spine 25% at this point they gave her steroids and I started acupuncturist two weeks later Chloe was no better and wasn't walking it all they took another MRI and it showed the disc is now 50% compressed so we did surgery on her December 6 the surgeon said everything went fine she should be able to stop and walk but she is nice it's very frustrating. hopefully the cart will get her legs going because she does not move in the house at all like the cute little dogs on that video that was so adorable so I don't have to worry about her hurting her feet in the house because she doesn't move around in the house but her outside she has a special leash and I had bought the foot protectors called pawsand that helps her out thank you for any help or any more suggestions you can give me I know it's going to take time and patience and I believe Clodis a walk again because she has all her feelings I guess the nervestake a long time to heal thank you Paula
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,610
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Post by PaulaM on Jan 5, 2015 15:55:15 GMT -7
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Post by Cindy & Chloe on Jan 5, 2015 18:44:40 GMT -7
Thanks I will, in your experience with so many story's about people and there dogs that have disk problems what are the chances that my chloe might walk again ?
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Marjorie
Moderator~
Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,724
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Post by Marjorie on Jan 6, 2015 7:31:12 GMT -7
Unfortunately, no one can tell you that, Cindy. Nerves can take a very long time to heal, months, even a year or more. It took my Jeremy months after his surgery to regain any movement at all in his hind legs and it was 6 months before he started walking again. I continued to see improvement in his walking over a year after surgery. He never did regain bladder or bowel control so his healing didn't follow what is usually seen with nerve healing. Neurological function usually returns in the reverse order of the damage. 1. Deep Pain Sensation (Only correctly identified by a specialist.) 2. Tail wagging with joy at seeing you, getting a treat or due to your happy talk. 3. Bladder and bowel control proved by passing the "sniff and pee" test. Take your dog out to an old pee spot in the grass. Let him sniff and then observe for release of urine. 4. Leg movement, and then ability to move up into a standing position, and then wobbly walking. 5. Being able to walk with more steadiness and properly placed paws. 6. Ability to walk unassisted and perhaps even run. Never lose hope and stay strong! I hope Chloe loves her new cart!
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Post by Cindy & Chloe on Jan 6, 2015 16:17:11 GMT -7
Thank you Marjorie, I'm not going to give up on Chloe her acupuncture seems to be helping more than anything right now but my acupuncturist doesn't think that Chloe should get a cart I emailed my surgeon to ask her whatshe thought of Chloe getting a cartto help her get back to walking but I haven't heard from her yet I already ordered it I thought it would be okay but I don't know now like I said my acupuncturist doesn't think it's a good idea at this point so I don't know what the neurologist just going to say so it's going to be delivered tomorrow so hopefully I'll hearfrom my neurologist one way or another
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Post by Cindy & Chloe on Jan 10, 2015 17:05:36 GMT -7
This is such a wonderful site and John and Marley your comments give me hope my Chloe had her surgery October 6, 2014 and still isn't walking reading your comments give me a lot of hope that she will Someday even if it takes a year she can still walk agen .thanks everybody this is a wonderful site!
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Post by Cindy & Chloe on Jan 13, 2015 22:25:37 GMT -7
Feeling discouraged about Chloe not walking yet I'm doing acupuncture and water therapy in the bathtub doesn't seem like much progress she'll be trying her walking wheels tomorrow just feeling a little discouraged and down thank you.
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Marjorie
Moderator~
Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,724
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Post by Marjorie on Jan 14, 2015 6:43:12 GMT -7
Dear Cindy, I do know how discouraging this can be. It took my Jeremy six months to walk after his surgery. Try to take it one day at a time and try to enjoy every minute of your time with Chloe. Try not to concentrate on whether she's walking or not. Even if she doesn't improve, she can have a good, happy life. Hopefully, you'll feel better once she adjusts to her cart and has more mobility. I think the cart will help her feel more like herself, too, as she'll be able to go on walks again and have that freedom of movement again. It hurt me when I first saw Jeremy in his cart but I grew to love that cart when I saw Jeremy running again with his ears flying.
Let us know how Chloe adjusts to her new cart. Keep up the therapy, have patience, stay strong, stay focused and never give up!!
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Post by Cindy & Chloe on Jan 14, 2015 7:14:44 GMT -7
Thank you Marjorie it really helps me feel better call we will probably be going in her cart today my husband just finishing putting it together though her surgeon recommended a four wheel cart to give her balance I'm glad your Jeremy is doing great is he still in his cart?
Hi marjorie,since the weather been cold and snowing chloe won't go pee in the yard even tho it's all shoveled even the grass( we have a big yard) so I put her on her special harness that hold her front and back up and walk her oh also I put the paws on her back feet.she sometimes won't even go then .i take her to spots of pee and she will sniff and go sometimes other times nothing. I know she's cold but like this moring I walked her and put her in the yard no pee! So I had to get to work so I left. So she haven't peed since 11.00 pm any ideas? Because I'm out of them
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,610
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Post by PaulaM on Jan 14, 2015 8:16:21 GMT -7
I'm wondering if there is a possibilty that she has developed a UTI from scooting? Do you use any butt protection to keep ground bacteria entering? one easy idea: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/aftercraterest/Buttprotect.htm What is the last date of a urinalysis to prove no bladder infection. Some infections are very painful, burning sensation making a dog not want to pee, hold it as long as possible.
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Post by Cindy & Chloe on Jan 14, 2015 8:58:37 GMT -7
Chloe doesn't soccut she jus kinda sits in one spot or may move just a bit ,wouldn't she cry out or have blood?
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Marjorie
Moderator~
Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,724
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Post by Marjorie on Jan 14, 2015 10:07:47 GMT -7
Urinary tract infections don't always show symptoms, Cindy, but it may very well be that she is showing a symptom by not wanting to pee if it's painful for her. I would definitely have her urine checked as Paula recommended to be sure. As for Jeremy, no, he no longer is in a cart. He had no leg movement for about three months after his surgery but once his legs started moving, he was walking, though not great, about 6 months after the surgery. I saw improvements in his walking a year or more after the surgery. He walks fairly well now, though one of his feet turns inwards and he slightly drags the other foot. He has trouble getting to his feet and his feet get tangled sometimes but he gets where he wants to go and can run (hops with his hind legs when he goes fast). Unfortunately, his bladder/bowel control never did return. But he's doing very well and is a happy boy.
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Post by Cindy & Chloe on Jan 14, 2015 15:47:28 GMT -7
No infection just a stubborn little shih tuz lol! How do I post a picture? I'm taking her to the vet today thank you for your help everyone
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,610
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Post by PaulaM on Jan 15, 2015 7:44:55 GMT -7
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Post by Cindy & Chloe on Jan 16, 2015 8:09:53 GMT -7
Good morning everyone just an update on Chloe and her new Cart I'm going to try to download a picture when I get time she got it a couple days ago and doesn't really seem to mind being in there has tried to move around in it a little bit when I push her her tail wags and she gets all happy so I think she likes it we have a floor in the kitchen in the dining room so she can get around but she is still kind of hesitant she has a cart with four wheels because her balance is so bad with her front legs so she does try to push with the front feet very lightly and may move an inch or so LOL how long does it usually take for the dogs to adjust to the carts?
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Post by Debbie Blackwelder on Jan 16, 2015 9:38:43 GMT -7
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Post by Cindy & Chloe on Feb 2, 2015 19:36:55 GMT -7
Hi everyone, just wanted to know if any else has this problem where your dog can't even push yourself up into a sitting position after surgery ,it's been four months since Chloe's surgery and she still can't push yourself up into a sitting position she now he has a cart and it has four wheels because she cannot balance herself she has movement in her legs and can feel everything just no strength.i do pt with her daily and take her for actureputure .but she just sometimes doesn't even try . I'm relly trying to be postive but some days I get so tired ,i just want my dog back I guess I'm feeling hopeless today. I'm so thankful for this group because no one else can understand we're I'm comming from.
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Post by Rosalind & Dewy on Feb 2, 2015 20:13:55 GMT -7
Cindy, I really understand. My dog had surgery almost three weeks ago. He has not wagged his tail or shown any leg movement. My son is ignoring him because he "wants his old dog back". My husband is frustrated at the expense. As it is early for us I know deep in my heart that I have to be ready to face any outcome and handle it with a positive attitude.
I read something about 'motivation' recently. Almost like they have to WANT to walk again. And something else on a PT site. That they forget that they can walk so they settle for the current state. Have u tried taking her to an actual facility where they can address this? I'm sure you are so discouraged and I can't imagine how u must feel cuz I feel similar at times at 3 weeks!
I just try really hard to be up and when I can't I give myself a break. I can't tell u it's all going to change but I can say I understand your pain and I'm sending you and Lucy lots of love and well wishes and patience. These woman on this site are incredible and I have been on it daily to the point where I feel like I should pay them!! They have given me incredible advice.
take care...take a hot bath and relax and love Lucy as she is right now. Just for today. That's all we have.
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Post by Cindy & Chloe on Feb 2, 2015 20:27:37 GMT -7
Thank you Rosalind for your kind words I really appreciate it! Your dewy is so adorable ! I hope he has a speedy recovery , your so right about all the stress that comes with this horrible disease sometimes it consumes my whole day if I let it.... But I'm going to enjoy her as much as I can ! I love her! And I'm in it till the end have a good night! Thanks for your post! PS my family acts the same as yours complainingall the time! Ugh!
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Marjorie
Moderator~
Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,724
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Post by Marjorie on Feb 3, 2015 6:10:30 GMT -7
Cindy, I understand how discouraging this can be. My Jeremy didn't have any movement at all in his hind legs for three months after his surgery and I never though he would walk again but he did start to walk 6 months after his surgery and I continued to see improvement over a year later. Nerves can take a very long time to heal. It's a good sign that Chloe has movement in her legs. Keep doing the PT every day and the acupuncture as long as it's within your budget and give her lots of hugs and kisses and tell her every day that she's getting better. Take it one day at a time and stay strong.
Does Chloe try to move in her cart? Do her front legs have enough strength to pull herself in the cart? When she's out of the cart, does she drag herself around? Sometimes if they can get from one spot to the other by themselves, they don't have an interest in trying something else.
Blessings to you both.
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