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Post by Tracy & Boo on Oct 23, 2014 18:22:38 GMT -7
I have two older min pins, my problems are.... Crating is not working, Boo just wants to follow me everywhere and will just bark and yip constantly, like hours. The only time she is quiet is when she is laying between my legs on the recliner. I am suppose to keep her calm due to high blood pressure but I can tell it goes up when I crate her. If she is out, my other mini, Roo, will attack her if she falls or has an asthma attack. And what new medicine is gassing us right out of the house?
What is your dog's name? Bootie but call her Boo
Your name. Tracy
Over weight at 18 lbs
Min pin and vet said ruptured disk in her neck. She has the wobbly walk and crosses her front legs, she falls and flops like a fish out of water or does the superman when she tries to stop and can't get back up. She has learned we pick her back up when she yips.
-- What was the date you saw the vet and started 100% STRICT crate rest 24/7? Saw vet 10/10 and he just said meds and no more collars, nothing about crate rest. Even said short walks with harness to get some weight off.
-- Is there still currently pain - shivering, trembling, yelping when picked up or moved, reluctant/slow to move head or body, tight hard tummy? Not that I notice, just real clingy and she wakes up frequently both night and day.
-- Please list the exact names of meds currently given, the start date, their doses in mgs and how often you give.
Ok, lots...
18 lbs
Tramadol, 50 mg twice a day
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Deramaxx, 25 mg 1/2 tablet once a day
Temaril-p, 1/2 tablet daily
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Amlodolipine, 2.5 mg 1/2 tablet twice a day
Benazepril, 5 mg twice daily
And symbicort and ventolin for asthma
Wobbly walk, falls and can't get up.
-- Do you find wet bedding or leaks on you when lifted up? No but she fell one time and was making urine angels when I woke up.
-- Eating and drinking OK? Nothing affects her appetite, ever!
-- Poops OK - normal color no dark or bright red blood? Normal, been watching for blood or dark from Rx.
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PaulaM
Moderator. 
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,565
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Post by PaulaM on Oct 23, 2014 19:32:08 GMT -7
Tracy, welcome to Dodgerslist. Until you get a different diagnosis of something else that might mimic a disc episode, then 100% STRICT crate rest 24/7 only out at potty times for 8 weeks is what it takes to get the damaged disc to heal. So a recovery suite is very necessary to keep the neck and the back with as much limited movement as possible. You may need to help her relax in the suite. Many have found a pet stroller makes a good suite as dogs like to be up higher and you can easily roll it as you move room to room. Because she is on so many meds it would be best to discuss with your vet if any calmers would be safe: Using any oral calmer in combination with a Pheromone diffuser seems to work best. It takes several days for these to start working - it isn't immediate but they are a much better option if you can avoid heavy duty prescription sedatives such as Acepromazine, Trazodone, etc. Of course always keep your vet in the loop on all things you give your dog. Other product brands may be available in your area or on-line… just shop by the active ingredient(s) on the label and the quantity for best price. Place a DAP pheromone diffuser at floor level where the recovery suite is. Some brands to consider: --Comfort Zone (DAP) wall plug-in diffuser 48ml www.petcomfortzone.com/dogs.html --Adaptil (DAP) wall plug in diffuser 48ml www.adaptil.com/ Use a diffuser with one oral calmer from below: 1) ANXITANE® S chewable tabs contain 50 mg L-Theanine, an amino acid that acts neurologically to help keep dogs calm, relaxed www.virbacvet.com/products/detail/anxitane-l-theanine-chewable-tablets/behavioral-health 2) Composure Soft Chews are colostrum based like calming mother's milk and contain 21 mg of L-Theanine. www.vetriscience.com/composure-soft-dogs-MD-LD.php 3) Bach's Rescue Remedy is a liquid herb combo to help with relaxation bachflowerpets.com/rescue-remedy-pets/Neck discs are extraordinarily painful and the low dose of only one pain med (tramadol) would not control pain. Since you say she is not in pain, it makes me very suspicious there can be something else going on. Can you get a referral to a neuro specialist to get a confirmation that this really is a disc episode in the disc? Also you have a dangerous situation going on with the Rx of Deramaxx (NSAID) and Temaril (contains prednisolone, 2 mg) www.drugs.com/vet/temaril-p-tablets.html. You should look up each med and be knowledgeable about which should not be used with other meds, what side effect to monitor for. This directory very good start place for learning about each of your dog's meds: www.marvistavet.com/html/pharmacy_center.htm Due to potential serious side effects of both classes of anti-inflammatory drugs: NSAID such as Deramaxx and steroids such as Prednisolone, there should be blood work first to assess liver and kidneys health. The FDA warns about mixing NSAIDs with steroids and the danger to the GI tract. The NSAIDs may prolong bleeding times and interfere with clotting, and have the potential to cause life-threatening liver and kidney problems with or without warning. The FDA and manufacturer pkg insert also warns about gastrointestinal problems as the natural defenses of the stomach to shield against stomach acid is hindered when taking NSAIDs. Steroids are involved with stimulating gastric acid secretion causing GI upset to the more threatening bleeding ulcers or holes in the stomach or intestine. Discuss with your vet about being proactive in GI tract protection and how it would work with all the meds she is on and her health issues. Normally doxies with disc episodes take 5mg Pepcid (famotidine) 2x/day. You need your vet's guidance. Discuss stopping Derramaxx as the anti-inflammatory at once! Steroids usually can't be stopped but need to be tapered off of. Seeing a neuro may be very helpful too as a 2nd opinion on what should be prescribed depending on what the confirming diagnosis is. |
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Post by Tracy & Boo on Oct 23, 2014 21:05:07 GMT -7
Thanks for the feedback, I was concerned about both the NSAIS and steroid but he said it was a very low dose and we were trying to wean her off of it before she got injured. She was on it to control her asthma. Her enlarged heart from her high BP is pressing her trachea up and causing kennel cough like symptoms which gave her asthma. We are trying to control the asthma with the inhalers. She does have high liver numbers and I forgot to include the chews she has for that, one each night. I have tried a calming chew from pet smart but I don't really notice a difference with it but if given before she sees the vet, her BP is about 20 points lower. I will talk with him soon about all the new info I am learning here. He wants Boo on the Rx for 30 days then ultrasound therapy then acurapuncture. We are in a growing community but the closest specialist is about two hours away at WSU Pullman. There is one vet in the area that offers acupuncture or chiropractic care for pets.
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Post by Debbie Blackwelder on Oct 24, 2014 6:36:16 GMT -7
Good Morning Tracy, my name is Debbie. As Paula has stated above you have several potentially dangerous combinations going on here, I would talk to your vet asap. The Pepcid AC is very important to get on board immediately, as Paula has stated above. The last thing you need at this moment is a bleeding ulcer on top of everything else. Additionally a second stomach protector would be good insurance until Boo is weaned from the Steroid or NSAID. That would be sucralfate, Sucralfate does not negate the extra stomach acids that Pred causes. Sucralfate works to gel coat when a damaged area of the stomach appears.
I can't stress enough the importance of the 100% Strict Crate Rest for 8 weeks. It is the limited movement that helps the disc to heal. It is movement that will tear an early healing disc. So 8 full weeks of 100% STRICT crate rest 24/7 means: No laps, no couch, no sleeping in bed with you, no meandering, around during potty times. No baths, no chiro (aka VOM). In other words do everything you can to limit the vertebrae in the back from moving and putting pressure on the bad disc.
Just to make sure you know Chiropractor care is not recommended for IVDD dogs.
Good luck and best wishes, Debbie
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StevieLuv
Helpful Member 
Conservative Treatment 3x. It really does work!
Posts: 1,335 
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Post by StevieLuv on Oct 24, 2014 6:42:21 GMT -7
Hi Tracy, my name is Maureen (from the herb page, if you are the lady that posted yesterday about the injured MinPin). I am so happy that you found Dodgerslist. Paula has given you a lot of great information, and our best bet as dog owners is to know all about our dogs disease (which I imagine that you already know because of Boo's asthma) we can help educate our Vets - they can't possibly know everything about every disease condition out there  Accupuncture is a great therapy for IVDD - avoid the chiropractic care - it can cause damage to a healing disc. Here is a link to our information on neck discs and things that you can do to help. Cervical discs www.dodgerslist.com/literature/cervical.htm Here is a link that explains emergency crate training to help him become used to his crate. It is also helpful to put a towel or lightweight blanket over the top of the crate to create a den like feel for him and that helps to calm them.. www.dodgerslist.com/literature/EmergencyCrate%20Training.htmPlease keep us posted - I know that several members here have had to deal with crate anxiety issues, and they often found that an expen or playpen worked out much better because the dog found it less isolating. Taking the crate around the house with them also helped , putting it up on coffee tables or end tables beside the bed so that their little one felt safe and protected by their owner. Check around the forum when you get a chance - they may have some extra helpful tips for you. Hang in there - and please keep us posted. We are here to help |
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Post by Tracy & Boo on Oct 24, 2014 10:27:46 GMT -7
Thanks, I have in an old playpen and she still just barks constantly. I can tell by the wild look in her eyes that her BP is sky high. She is only quiet and content when she is between my legs on the recliner which means I am also tied to the recliner, sigh. I have been putting her in it for a few minutes at a time when I am in the room cleaning or doing something but if I sit or leave the room she freaks out!  |
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Sabrina
Helpful Member
My Charley-dog, a Dodger'sList grad enjoying life!
Posts: 471
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Post by Sabrina on Oct 24, 2014 10:54:32 GMT -7
Hi Tracy, I'm Sabrina. I'm so sorry to hear of all Boo's health struggles! Have you spoken with your vet to see if there are any calming medications that would be safe to give to Boo in conjunction with all her other meds? Some dogs really need an oral calmer in order to actually rest during crate rest! Does your playpen have wheels? Or do you have a wire crate for Boo (something like this: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/cratesupplies/preppingcrate.pdf ) that you could attach "crate casters" (wheels) to? During my Charley-dog's episode it was so helpful to be able to wheel him around the house with me! ))Hugs!(( -- Sabrina |
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,565
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Post by PaulaM on Oct 24, 2014 11:26:17 GMT -7
Tracy, I drove 7.5 hours from Montana to get to WSU with two different dogs one mid winter another summer, the neuro department was outstanding both times. I really think there are other things going on with Boo that getting a specialist's 2nd opinion would be a very good investment in time to drive 2 hours and get their take.
Why put Boo through strict crate rest if he has something else going on? However until you know for sure this is not a disc episode, whatever you can do to keep that back with limited movement is the order of the day....can't emphasize that enough. Because dogs always do the unexpected, we need to protect them from themselves and that can only happen in a recovery suite: wire crate maybe high on dining table so he can see everything, pet stroller to roll about the house- it is also up higher, baby crib, ex-pen.
Because of all Boo's health issues and meds he is on, we really, really do want you to pass EVERYTHING by the vet before it goes in his mouth. Even supplements, herbs, etc can have side effects and some should not be used with FDA approved meds. It is all so very complicated, you really need the guidance of a vet and likely the guidance of a specialist.
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Post by Tracy & Boo on Oct 27, 2014 10:53:33 GMT -7
So 9 am found me waiting for the vets office to open. I requested a seditave to help keep her crazy self calm. I asked about her meds and he wants to keep her on the same but I'm going to cut back from 1/2 of a pill of the steroid Temaril-P to 1/4 and see how her asthma does on just the steroid inhaler. He said she was already on the max for Deramaxx at 1/2 tablet of 25 mg once a day. He also said she is on the max dose of Tramadol at 50 mg twice a day but I could brake them in half and give 4 times verses two for better coverage. The sedative he gave her is Acepromazine which is better for her liver then Valium. I also started her on the Pepcid. I think I'm going to order her the stroller so she can go room to room with me. I made an apt for Wednesday with the vet that does the acupuncture but I'm not sure it's something I can afford. The lazer treatments at my current vet seem to be the better option. Other then that, I have been fighting with my husband of 27 years cuz he thinks she is suffering and thinks I'm selfish not to put her down.
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Sabrina
Helpful Member
My Charley-dog, a Dodger'sList grad enjoying life!
Posts: 471
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Post by Sabrina on Oct 27, 2014 11:47:45 GMT -7
Hi Tracy!
Tramadol has a very short half-life, so now that Boo will be getting a dose every 6hrs I'm hopeful that will control her pain. When the pain meds/doses/frequencies are right for your dog today, you'll see full pain control within an hour.
When my little dog had his episode we were living in a semi-rural part of the country so I know that traveling to see a specialist can seem like such a daunting prospect! (because of his situation it turned out I did not have to travel with my Charley-dog). Have you spoken with the WSU neuro dept to get a price quote? I know how it is with limited funds (as do so many of us!)! Acupuncture and laser are great for an IVDD dog if they fit into your budget, but if you need that money to see a specialist you can do those therapies later if/when they fit into your budget.
Let us know if the 25mg Tramadol every 6hrs is completely controlling Boo's pain, and if the Acepromazine helps her relax. We're here for you!
))Hugs!((
- Sabrina
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Post by Tracy & Boo on Oct 27, 2014 16:49:53 GMT -7
This is the stroller I'm thinking about ordering for just home and vet use.
www.discountramps.com/dog-stroller/p/PET-STR-1/
So I ordered the stroller without any feedback except what was on the website. Boo has slept most of the day on the sedative and has been much quieter today. She is still very clingy but I am hoping the stroller will fix that; please pray with me that it arrives fast! I have been doing a lot of research today and the most helpful I found was to stop felling guilty and to stop felling sorry for her. I didn't cause this and there was nothing I could have done to prevent it. That's why it's called an accident. Now I have to focus on getting her better and stop putting my human feeling on her because she doesn't think like I do. She may not like her restriction and family members may not like or cooperate but I have to be her advocate to get her better and remember the end goal of health. |
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Post by Pauliana on Oct 27, 2014 20:04:08 GMT -7
Hi Tracy, The stroller should be a big help around the house. Hope it arrives soon for you! I have stroller here for my dog, it's a different kind but the idea is the same.. He isn't in the midst of an IVDD episode now but he loves it and likes to be in it to take naps and loves to stretch out in his.. I hope Boo feels as comforted in hers as Tyler does! I hope it gets her past her crate rest anxiety. Just be sure not to leave her unattended even for a short minute while she is in her stroller.. www.dodgerslist.com/literature/strollers.htmYou are right, don't feel guilty, accidents happen. Boo doesn't hold anything against you..so you shouldn't either.. Just focus on Boo getting better day by day.. Quite often family members don't cooperate or agree, you just do the best you can to advocate for Boo...and know in your heart you are doing the right thing.. |
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Post by Tracy & Boo on Oct 28, 2014 11:39:37 GMT -7
Is there a pattern for front leg walk assists/slings? I saw one for back legs but can't find it on the app version.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,565
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Post by PaulaM on Oct 28, 2014 15:47:03 GMT -7
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Post by Tracy & Boo on Oct 28, 2014 16:05:20 GMT -7
Thanks, that is what I was looking for. I found a YouTube vid that a vet made using a shopping bag and it's no sew. I made it and it works great! I will post some Picts later. I am having problems uploading Picts from my I-pad. Boo is doing much better today without the sedation. Yesterday was a disaster while she was on it. Incontinent all day log and throwing up everything. Today no accidents but still no #2. She just went #1 twice on her new sling. She seems a bit more like herself today so I think her pain is under control. She is starting to do better in the playpen but still freaks when she can't see me. I can't wait for that stroller! So I have an envelop style dog bed I made the last year and just roll her up like a burrito and take her to the kitchen and put her in the center of the floor while I do dishes and cook. She doesn't try to get up and just watches me. I also purchased some more foam and made her a pallet type area right next to my bed that she can't get out of since the play pen doesn't fit there. It's working so far.
Question... Since her knuckling over is so bad would the supports I see online help her out? I think they were called hawk supports. I think she could walk without a sling if she didn't knuckle over. Also tomorrow afternoon is our apt with a second vet. This one does the acupuncture and seems more knowledgable about IVDD.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,565
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Post by PaulaM on Oct 28, 2014 18:09:40 GMT -7
Since you are assuming this is a disc episode and not something else going on that a specialist appt might be able to diagnose, you want for her to NOT be walking around. So I would not use leg/paw supports. Just carry her to and from the potty place. Set her down and let her sniff and pee while you support her with sling(s). Then when finished lift and carry her back to her recovery suite.
Glad to hear you have a stroller on the way, that really should help Boo with anxiety and make it easier to lift her up for care. Just a reminder, that you may already have read....but only use the stroiller when you are there to see and supervise. Some dogs have been able to open the zipper and get out! Some are rascals that we have to be one step of head of them.
Let us know how the vet visit goes tomorrow and any changes in meds or opinions.
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Post by Tracy & Boo on Oct 29, 2014 1:42:31 GMT -7
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Post by Tracy & Boo on Oct 29, 2014 10:32:35 GMT -7
I should totally be sleeping right now but it's totally worth some missed sleep to get Boo to go #2 with her sling. She must feel so much better and nobody else in the entire world gets that except you guys. After all, how much sleep does one need to dispatch police, fire and medics? The bright side is it's my Friday, just have to make till 0600 tomorrow.
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Post by Tracy & Boo on Oct 29, 2014 20:30:28 GMT -7
Sooooo went to Boo's vet appointment with the new vet. Was pretty much a disappointment as I didn't learn anything new except during her exam while feeling and manipulating her neck it popped. He wanted to run $1700 in new tests on top of laser and aqua-puncture treatments. His prices were over double of what my vet is on the laser treatments. He also pointed out that even though we witnessed her accident and her yelp of pain it could be something else like food allergies. It could be but I call BS! I think he just wanted to sell me his "specialty" brand of food as he has a pet store in his vet practice. I am all for getting the correct diagnoses but I felt like he was running them just to do something. I already told him he could contact my other vet for her records, test results and images when he asked. She had a full blood work up in August and x-rays. Anyway, Boo is much better this evening. She stood up by herself in the play pen and even tried to jump out. I sedated her so she doesn't injure her fat little self any more. Dad is at home with her since I have to tell the police where to go tonight. My husband and I talked and we will be starting the laser treatments after the first and I am going to purchase the foot spray for better traction for both dogs. I am hoping that since her neck popped it relieved some pressure off of her spine so she can begin to heal. The stroller should be here by Monday and my goal is to try and keep her as quiet as I can. It's going to be hard because she is acting like her normal self and she even growled at Roo tonight when I fed her. I am kind of surprised that neither vet mentioned or suggested crate rest and both actually suggested short bursts of activity for weight loss and therapy to keep "things" moving and working. ![]() |
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Post by Pauliana on Oct 29, 2014 21:07:03 GMT -7
Hi Tracy, Sounds like the new Vet was using Chiropractic methods which are not recommended for dogs with IVDD. He worked it into exam without saying what he was doing. I hope Boo continues to feel better and doesn't have any problems as a result.. www.dodgerslist.com/literature/chiropractic.htmCanada West Vet Surgeons Dr. Nicholas Sharp, DVM, ACVIM (neurology): Strict rest needs to be maintained by keeping the dog in a small cage for 6-8 weeks and then preventing it from running or jumping for a further month after that. It is necessary to continue rest for conservative treatment for this long period because a disc takes on average about twice as long as a broken bone to heal, as a disc has a very poor blood supply compared to most other tissues including bone. canadawestvets.com/disc-disease/#table-7-1Sounds like Boo is getting her spirit back.. Growling at Roo is a protective defense because she knows she has to act tough so Roo doesn't realize she has problems.. In a dog pack the weaker dog gets attacked and it is an instinctive behavior she is exhibiting.. My Tyler always acts like the tough guy he isn't around other dogs in the neighborhood.. Do keep an eye on them and be sure to feed Boo inside her crate.. Keep on feeling better Boo! |
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Post by Tracy & Boo on Oct 31, 2014 11:14:05 GMT -7
Boo is worse today, she is now knuckling over on her back legs. Vet can't see her till Monday and I made an apt to start the laser therapy. Not getting much sleep...
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,565
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Post by PaulaM on Oct 31, 2014 15:51:25 GMT -7
Tracy, when there is increased neuro damage, such as knuckling when there was not any before, it really demands attention by the vet asap. Hours, minutes matter when there is loss of function. Waiting til Monday is not optimal when you are looking at preserving nerves. Is the laser therapy vet the same new who did the chiro manipulation on Boo's neck?
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Post by Tracy & Boo on Oct 31, 2014 18:37:37 GMT -7
No, I'm not going back to him. It's with my original vet. I talked with him and we are increasing the▲ duramaxx for 24 hours.
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Post by Tracy & Boo on Nov 1, 2014 9:23:20 GMT -7
Boo had a much better night! I actually got 4 straight hours of sleep then another two. I had to sleep on the couch with my arm in the playpen resting on her but it was so worth it. Today's challenge is going to be keeping her down and quiet because every time I leave the room she is trying to follow me, standing up on her own and barking. I can tell she is feeling much better and I don't see ant knuckling on her back legs today. Her front end seems a little stronger as I was able to just hold her behind her front legs to potty and not use the sling (she walks less that way). She is also paying more attention to Roo this morning, wanting to follow her when she tears outside barking at the wind. I think keeping her quiet is the key for her slight improvement. Monday her stroller will be here and it will be so much easier to get stuff done when she can just go with me. Wish me luck in keeping her quiet and still today...
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Post by Tracy & Boo on Nov 1, 2014 12:27:26 GMT -7
OMG, Boo just walked!!! I took her potty and used her sling but she walked with just enough support to steady her. She had been non weight bearing on her front legs or walking on her knees the last 4 days. I only let her walk enough to sniff and pee less then two feet but she wanted to go more. I just picked her up at that point. This is the best progress so far but she is still knuckling over on her front but not as bad. She was reweighed at the vet and is 22 lbs so I wonder if she didn't have a high enough dose of the anti inflammatory all along? Now the hard part of keeping her quiet the rest of the day.
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Post by Debbie Blackwelder on Nov 1, 2014 13:09:55 GMT -7
Congratulations, that is news we love to hear!!!!! Keep up the good work, the progress is showing!
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Post by Tracy & Boo on Nov 1, 2014 23:53:12 GMT -7
Man today was all over the place! So excited to see progress and some of her strength and want to coming back but at the same time the struggle to keep her quiet. She is standing by herself now and can take a few steps on her own in the playpen. She tried to jump out a few times and scared the crap out of me. She and Roo got into it a few time thru the mesh of the playpen and she barked continually to go outside. I have to tell you I was really considering putting her down on Friday after she started getting worse. Between lack of sleep, fighting with my husband, worrying about the financial side and watching her suffer it was just too much. So many people were telling me I was selfish to not put her down but I did my homework and I found this helpful site and now she is on the mend. I think the other vet injured her more during his exam when her neck popped. I have to tell you that crate rest is the toughest tough love there is. Thank you for all you do.
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Post by Debbie Blackwelder on Nov 2, 2014 6:36:23 GMT -7
Tracy, IVDD is such an emotional struggle, especially on your first. The important thing is not to do anything rash or during an emotional breakdown. Boo will heal as you are already seeing her progress now. My three Dachshunds with IVDD keep me on my toes all the time, but I love them and they are my children forever. You are not being selfish, IVDD is not a disease that requires euthanasia, with the proper medications and rest Boo will pull through. My husband also gave me a hard time over my three surgeries but he knew I was going to do it with or without his blessings. He laughingly jokes now that my dogs walking are his Kabota tractor he was never able to buy because of the surgeries.
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Post by Tracy & Boo on Nov 2, 2014 8:14:34 GMT -7
Thank you for all the positive support.   |
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Post by Tracy & Boo on Nov 2, 2014 11:29:21 GMT -7
So any ideas to keep her quietly entertained? Boo does not play with toys, snuggle with blankets or watch tv. I work nights and sleep during the day. She usually goes outside and barks at whatever till I wake up. My husband brought home some soup bones and I let her have it for 15 minutes keeping in mind it could irratiate her neck injury. Boo's sole reason for living is eating and being my shadow but I need some sleep. I am a 911 dispatcher and I need to be alert. I am trying to figure out a way to get her playpen next to a window but may have to construct something. Any other ideas?
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