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Post by Laurie & Ghost on May 2, 2024 6:16:30 GMT -7
Hi My name is Laurie and I’m the mother of 9 French bull dogs . no iam not a breeder !! These are my actual babies !! I started Off With a boy and a girl and I was told that they could not conceive or give birth in their old until down the road my girl belly got big , went in labor for her scheduled C -Section which led me to have to deliver 7 Puppies all with help of an emergency hospital via telephone. I grew attached to the puppies and Could not see myself getting rid of them because I just didn’t know what type of home they’d end up in. Me and my partner recently parted ways which now leaves me. Single mother of 9!! Well Enough about me this is more so about Ghost! ★1 Maybe about 25-30 pounds ( really athletic!!) he was prescribed Gabapentin 100mg , Methocarbamol Tablets 500mg, and Prednisone Tablets 5mg, along with a Fentanyl patch that stays on for 72 hours to help manange pain.
[Moderator's note: please do not modify
25-30 lbs 3y.o
name of Steroid shot 4/31 Prednisone as of 5/1: 5mgs 1x/day for ? days, then TEST TAPER for pain, neuro
Fentanyl patch as of 4/31 expires in 72 hrs on 5/3
Gabapentin 100mg ?x/day
Methocarbamol 500mg ?x/day
Ghost needs GI tract protector, Pepcid AC, on board for duration of prednisone! ]
Ghost started Steriods at Home May 1st but the doctor also gave him a steroid injection April 31th. Ghost is not currently on a stomach protector as I just found out what that was by joining this forum so I will be sure to mention at his appointment this Friday with actual vet outside of emergency. -★2 French Bull Dog -3years Old. Laurie ★3 I got diagnosed by an emergency room . No mri was conducted because I did not have the money to pay for it. Setting in the room with your baby hearing the doctor state that your baby needs what sounds like million dollar surgery broke me immediately. I felt like I had failed him. Because I didn’t have the money to pay. I’ve been slipping into a depression these past 3 days !! If it wasn’t for prayer or me finding out that there actually is hope I don’t know here I’d be. You guys have no idea how much how this forum has helped me ! I no longer feel alone !! -- Is the vet a general DVM? A general Specialist Emergency Hospital. No Nuerologist. ★4 I brought ghost in April 30th because I noticed he was walking funny as if his stomach hurted . His stomach looked tight and his back had a light arch . Ghost was sent home frm the Er that night because he appeared stable just experiencing some back discomfort from many playing . Since the doctors were gonna be in surgery the remainder of the night I was told to come back in the morning . Which I did … however in the morning ghost legs apparently went out . This was April 31st at 8:00am
★Ghost Does seem to be experiencing pain because he really doesn’t wanna be touched or bothered . However , he allowed me to help him release his bladder with no problem. As well as massage his leg with he wouldn’t let me do before . ★6 Ghost has not wanted to eat but will drink water . I think it’s the meds. He pooped 3 times April 31st but none may 1st . I have been tube feeding him because I know it’s important for him to eat. He has been fine with the syringe feeding . I will offer him food today . ★7 He’s a French Bull Dog so he rarely wags his tail . He hasn’t really been his normal self due to meds but I got him to give me a kiss . That made me really happy . He can not use his back legs but he does feel them . ★8 I believe he knows when he has to pee because he gets reall whiny then when I go check he’s whiny because he peep’d . I’ve also assisted him since finding this forum and he released a lot of urin . I’ve tried taking him out side to use the restroom but he wants to come back inside ( maybe because we have other dogs ( which have been kept 100% away from him during this time ) Can you guys inform me when is it safe to start acupuncture, cold therapy etc. do I wait after the 6 week crate restriction? Or is the sooner the better ? |
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Post by Romy & Frankie on May 2, 2024 13:54:45 GMT -7
Welcome to Dodgerslist, Laurie. We are glad you’ve joined us all. We’ve got valuable information we’ve learned from the vets Dodgerslist consults with and our own experiences with IVDD since 2002 to share with you! Learn more about us and how we team up with veterinarians: dodgerslist.com/about-team-dodgerslist/
What a cute story about your nine Frenchies.
The most important thing you can do for Ghost right now is keep him on Very Strict crate rest.
STRICT means: - no laps - no couches - no baths - no sleeping with you - no chiro therapy - no dragging or meandering at potty times .
You will find more information about crate rest at the link below: www.dodgerslist.com/2020/05/14/strict-rest-recovery-procCarry Ghost to and from the potty spot. You can support his legs with your hands or by using a sling (long winter scarf, ace bandage, belt) to support his back end. I know that he isn't pottying outside, but if you are limiting his movements, it is fine to give him a chance to go.
Expressing is tricky to learn. The best way to start is by getting a hand-on lesson from your vet. Then review the information at the link below and practice. You see to be getting a good start at it. You will know you have it right when there is no wet bedding or leakage.
Please speak to the vet as soon as possible about a stomach protector. This is very important. Dog's cannot tell us when their stomach is bothering them. They rely on us to speak for them. Ghost's reluctance to eat is a sign that stomach damage may be starting. If you cannot reach your vet quickly, and you are certain Ghost does not have any kidney, liver or heart health issues, start Pepcid AC today and keep your vet in the loop as soon as possible.
The usual dose of Pepcid AC (famotidine) for dogs is 0.44mg per pound, 30 mins before the anti-inflammatory and thereafter every 12 hours for as long as your dog is on the anti-inflammatory.
How many times a day is the prednisone prescribed for? When does the taper start? How often does Ghost get pain meds?
These are the signs of pain to look for;☐shivering, trembling ☐yelping when picked up or moved ☐reluctant to move much in crate such as shift positions or slow to move ☐tight tense tummy ☐can’t find a comfortable position ☐Arched back ☐ Holding front or back leg flamingo style not wanting to bear weight ☐head held high or nose to the ground ☐Not their normal perky selves?
Ghost not wanting to be touched may be a sign of pain. If you are seeing another of the signs listed above, Ghost is likely experiencing pain. Full pain relief is expected in 1 hour and stays that way between doses. If pain is not in control, your vet needs to know right away to adjust meds. Watch Ghost carefully for signs of pain now, as the fentany patch is becoming less effective.
Information about meds can be found at the link below:
Information about what to expect for each phase of healing is below:
You can start acupuncture or laser treatment right away. If possible, get a vet that will come to the house. It is very scary when our dogs are diagnosed with iVDD. It becomes less scary when we learn all we can about the disease.
More information about IVDD can be found at our main website: www.dodgerslist.com |
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Post by Laurie & Ghost on May 3, 2024 9:02:29 GMT -7
Thanks for the following information. Ghost is taking prednisone once a day and he’s prescribed a pill and one half [whole pill is ?mgs] .
I did get the ✙Pepcid 20mg that I gave him twice today. I will be sure to home 30 mins before anti inflammatory . I’ve been giving him his meds every 8hours but I’ve noticed I ve had I’ve had to give them two hours sooner at times .
[Moderator's note: please do not modify
25-30 lbs 3y.o
name of Steroid shot 4/31
Prednisone 5mg tablet as of 5/1: 7.5mgs 1x/day for ? days, then TEST TAPER for pain, neuro
Fentanyl patch as of 4/31 expires in 72 hrs on 5/3
Gabapentin 100mg 3x/day
Methocarbamol 500mg ?x/day
✙Pepcid ac 20 mgs 2x/day as of 5/3? ]
Last night was tough for me. I rarely got any sleep because I was so worried about him sitting up for hours.
He refused to lay down!! He sat up for hours to the point when I actually tried to make him at it seems painful as if his front arms were sore. I purchased a red light cold therapy device and used that on his arm for 10 mins.. he laid down for no longer then an hour and got back up.
He's really whiny. He's eating and drinking but still whining. He's not shaking ... and when u talk to him he stops is anyone else pup doing the same? He seems really anxious.
I kno he'll feel better once I can take this cone off his head which was placed due to him having a fentanyl patch. He has a doctors appointment today with a regular vet but I don't know if I feel safe transporting him in my vehicle.
Every time I pick him up I think I'm hurting his spine since the spine is fagile. My mom thinks I'm overthinking this. I've been really stressed on stop of the stress I'm rarely able to sleep because I'm tending to him. I think I have to move him out of my bedroom. Is any of your pets sleeping in the bedroom with you?
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PaulaM
Moderator. 
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,941
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Post by PaulaM on May 3, 2024 10:49:54 GMT -7
Hi Laurie! Would you help us. Ghost's med list is missing important info. We are in the dark and not able to give a detailed comment as we'd like to do. Til you can fill in the missing info on Ghosts med list, in general his pain meds are inadequate if he is still in pain. PHONE, to avoid a transport into a vet. Telephone the vet to report signs of pain. Vets who know their IVDD will take a phone call and adjust meds over the phone. 1. Fentanyl patch expires, today 5/3?
2. How many mgs in one whole pred tablet? For how many days is he to take pred Rx'd on 5/1 BEFORE the dose is reduced (tapered)? 3. Gabapentin: how many times day was the Rx for? How many times a day have you actually been dosing last night? 4. Methocarbamol: how many times day was the Rx for? How many times a day have you actually been dosing last night? Lifting and Carrying Ghost is A BIG DEAL re: back safety. Educate your mom, to help her understand. Can you safely for your own back as well as the safety of Ghost lift his 25-30 lbs? Let us know, we can suggest options for potty time.-- Limit moving him to what is necessary for pottytime. -- Arrange to speak over the phone for adjustments to pain meds to avoid the risk of too much spine movement of doing a car transport and all that entail. LIFT and CARRY (support both ends, keep back horizontal to the ground)
Dodgerslist video + crate rest tips:
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Post by Laurie & Ghost on May 3, 2024 12:31:04 GMT -7
Ok yes I believe the fentanyl patch ends today . Ghost was prescribed 5 mg of prednisone and he was instructed to take 1.5 once a day . He was also prescribed gabapentin 100 mg 1-2 every 8 hours or when needed . I was only giving him once every 6-8 hours so today I started giving him two [▲ gabapentin]. I noticed when I sit him out the crate area he is not whining so I’m not sure if it’s pain or anxiety. But he want to sit up more laying down. Yesterday during the day he slept a lot . also how often should I release his bladder ? Every 3 hours ? I also just gave him Benadryl . This whole process has my own anxiety through the roof because I’m here analyzing and watching him 24-7. Because I don’t want him laying on his leg. Can’t be damage his self laying the wrong way ? He’s also kind of big so I hurt my back bending over to pick him up 
[Moderator's note: please do not modify
25-30 lbs 3y.o
name of Steroid shot 4/31
Prednisone (5mg tablet) as of 5/1: 7.5mgs 1x/ day for ? days, then TEST TAPER for pain/neuro
Gabapentin ▲200mg 3x/day
Methocarbamol 500mg ?x/day
Pepcid AC 20 mgs 2x/day]
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Post by Romy & Frankie on May 3, 2024 13:44:55 GMT -7
Whining alone is not usually a sign of pain. These are the signs of pain we look for. I am putting them again here for your easy reference. ☐shivering, trembling ☐yelping when picked up or moved ☐reluctant to move much in crate such as shift positions or slow to move ☐tight tense tummy ☐can’t find a comfortable position ☐Arched back ☐ Holding front or back leg flamingo style not wanting to bear weight ☐head held high or nose to the ground ☐Not their normal perky selves?
If you are not seeing any other pain signs, I think the whining is anxiety.
Gabapentin very often makes a dog sleepy, so sleeping more is not unusual.
You mentioned giving Benadryl. Was it for allergies? Benadryl also has sleepiness as a side effect.
In the beginning, expressing should be done fairly frequently. Every three hours sounds good for now. If Ghost is leaking between expressions, express more often. Later, as you become more proficient, you can slowly increase the time between expressing sessions. Ultimately, you may only have to express as often as you used to take him outside to potty.
A 25-30 lb dog can be hard to lift. Instead of lifting and carrying Ghost you could try a pee pad right outside the crate. I had to do this during my dog's IVDD episode. Try putting a paper towel with another dog's urine on the pad. That may encourage Ghost to use the pad. My dog wouldn't use the pee pad until I did this.
If Ghost is able to move around enough to reposition himself in the crate, don't worry about him lying on his leg. He will not damage himself if he is comfortable in that position.
I know from experience how much anxiety a pet parent gets during an IVDD episode, but you need to take care of yourself also. If he is sleeping quietly in his crate you don't need to constantly watch him. Get some sleep yourself. You can't take good care of Ghost unless you take good care of yourself.
For how many days is he to take prednisone 1 1/2 tablets (7.5mgs) once a day?
How often are you promptly on time giving methocarbamol entire tablet of 500 mgs?
Are you now promptly giving gabapentin 200 mgs 3x/day? |
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Post by Laurie & Ghost on May 4, 2024 0:23:27 GMT -7
I would like to thank you again for this information!! Last night ghost was in one spot not really wanting to move because I think his front legs wore sore from standing all day.
Today [5/3] after removing the fentanyl patch ghost seems to be doing a lot better . He’s starting to move and position his self around his crate more . I also found some dog ✙cbd at my local herbal store and that seems to have cute out all the whining and painting.
Ghost will start acupuncture and laser therapy on the 17th ( that was the soonest available date in my area) and I’m just praying that’ll help him up back to his active lifestyle.
And to answer your question yes ghost is on 7 mg of prednisone . I was given 20 tables and was told to reach out to my primary vet in regards to tapering medication pending the response from treatment.
For the most part I’ve been consistent with giving Gabapentin. I bumped up to two tablets before I was doing one tablet and another a couple hours between the 8 hours .
As for the Methocarbamol 500mg
He’s was only perscribed 1/4. Given every 8 hours
[Moderator's note: please do not modify
25-30 lbs 3y.o
name of Steroid shot 4/31
Prednisone (5mg tablet) as of 5/1: 7.5mgs 1x/ day for 20 days, 5/21 TEST TAPER for pain/neuro
Gabapentin 200mg 2x/day
Methocarbamol 500mg ?x/day
CDB oil ?mg ?x/day
Pepcid AC 20 mgs 2x/day]
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,941
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Post by PaulaM on May 4, 2024 9:20:11 GMT -7
Laurie, the very best care you can give is maintaining STRICT rest at home.
-- Vet visits when an emergency require a transport which puts the healing disc at risk.
-- However, when a real health emergency, then a transport is worth the risk.
If you want accupuncture or laser then seek a mobile vet who comes to your house. Not worth the disc/spinal cord risk to transport Ghost into a vet.
WHAT IS kinda an emergency is to get the tapering instructions for prednisone. NO ONE wants a dog on pred any bit past its benefit of fully resolving the root cause of pain.
🚩 If 20 pred pills rx'd on 5/1 would mean a 20-day course of pred, that is not normal!!
🚩 YOU NEED A VET who can prescribe a more appropriate days- course (often that would be a 7-day or maybe 14-day course).
🚩 THEN the VERY IMPORTANT pred taper begins for YOU to identify if pred has done its job or if truly another course is required.
🚩 Pain surfacing or decline in neuro would indicate another pred course and another test for pain taper.
We really look forward to you answers so we have correct, up-to-date information to make proper comments.
---Please help us use dates rather than tomorrow, today, last week, etc.
--- When updating adjusted meds, please use the name of med, mgs dose and times per day
THINGS TO DO today
--- Contact your vet to get Rx for pred taper directions. The safest for Ghost would be for ER who Rx'd pred would give you the taper directions.
1. VERY LIKELY your vet can't prescribe anything about pred unless he has first examined Ghost.
2. Unfortunate, but that is likely the law where you live.
3. So you WILL LIKELY need to get an appointment with your vet and do the risky-to-the-healing disc trip in SOLELY to get an Rx for tapering pred! IF you are there maybe if you want the laser/acupuncture that could be done with same trip???
-- Hire a mobile vet if you want acupuncture or laser to come to your home. It is NOT WORTH the risk to possibly have new damage to the disc and spinal cord due to transporting a not so easy to safely lift 25-30 lbs dog and all the other stuff involved with leaving the safety of Ghost's recovery suite at home.
-- How many times a day do you give 125mgs (1/4 tab) of methocarbamol?
-- What is the dose of CDB?
-- Is moving his back legs to reposition in suite an improvement?
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Post by Laurie & Ghost on May 4, 2024 11:55:33 GMT -7
Thanks for that information …
I’m completely scared from our recent trip to Vca Pet Hospital located in Benicia ,Ca . I brought ghost there to establish care and to receive tapering instructions. In which I informed them of before the appointment was made . Once I got there I was told that because ghost has IVDD i need to get him to the emergency because if he doesn’t get the surgery he will never walk again. That medical tech doesn’t know how much she crushed me . I explained that I could not afford the surgery and that’s why I’m taking the pain management route that the emergency we informed me of during our visit . She then refused to see Ghost and told me I was now late to my appointment ( me and ghost were sitting in a waiting for a doctor) when I was informed that I was now late and couldn’t be seen. I said all that to say that I risked Ghost disk just to experience this heart breaking encounter!! I will reach out to a mobile vet today to see if they can come out because I know it’s really important that I get the proper instructions for prednisone.
Ghost is now starting to move around in his crate more . He’s been doing really well positioning his self . But I still don’t think he can control his legs . He’s been a lot more calm and is finally getting rest .
He’s taking “daily balance “ 500mg cbd per bottle . It’s oil based and I purchased it from my herbal store . I give him 5-6 pumps as the instructions says for his weight give him 3-9 pumps .
I will also reach out to the Emergency that prescribe ghost perdisone for RX instructions .
Is acupressure also good for ghost ?
I also purchased a cool device on Amazon . How often should I use it on him ?
I was giving ghost 125 mg of methocarbamol when he was showing signs of pain. Now I switch to mornings and night for better ready
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Post by Romy & Frankie on May 4, 2024 13:47:39 GMT -7
I am sorry that you had such a horrible experience. Keep in mind that it was a vet tech and not a vet who spoke, and that Ghost had not even been examined. In my opinion, she was out of line to predict Ghost's recovery like that.
You should be able to get tapering instructions from the emergency vet or another vet at the same clinic, who prescribed the pred without another visit. For the health of the dog, pred must be tapered, and how to do that should be part of the instructions when it is prescribed. If you weren't given tapering instructions, you should be able to get them verbally.
A mobile vet with some IVDD experience will save Ghost from a risky transport. Even without much IVDD experience, if the vet is willing to educate himself and consult with another, more experienced vet, that should be fine.
Acupuncture or Electro-acupuncture can be helpful to an IVDD dog. I have not heard of our members using acupressure. With any therapy, try to find someone who makes house calls.
Can you give us more information about the electric device you purchased?
Pain meds work best on a schedule and not as needed. It is easier to keep pain under control than treat the pain when it is already present.
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Post by Laurie & Ghost on May 4, 2024 18:58:14 GMT -7
I emailed the emergency asking for tapering instructions and shared my experience that u had with the previous vet and this was there response “ The reason we are not providing the instructions is because we don't know if the pet is ready to be tapered off the medication. We often prescribe medication that may be on going and you should be scheduling an appointment with your regular vet for follow up. Once they are seen by the regular vet they would be able to decide if the pet is ready to be tapered off the medication. If they have any questions they can give us a call, or if you let me know which vet it is, I can try to call them and explain.” I hadn’t had any success hearing back from any local mobile vets here where I live ( Vallejo California) but I’ll definitely keep calling. As for now ghost still isn’t using his back legs . Should he be moving them by now ? Today is only day 4 . What type of progress should I be seeing ? Also the device I purchased is from Amazon the name of it is “Dawfek Laser Therapy for Dogs, 4x980nm+4x810nm+16x660nm, Cold Laser Therapy Device for Horses, Veterinary Laser Therapy Machine, Pet Cold Laser Therapy Device, Laser Treatment for Animals at Home” I’ve also been playing with his toes and rubbing his feet hoping I’d feel him trying to move them “
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,941
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Post by PaulaM on May 4, 2024 20:16:00 GMT -7
Laurie, there is no timeline, number of days or date for when neuro functions will self repair! There is only a predictable step by step return of neuro function. Nerve function may or may not come back in the short time of 8 weeks that it takes the disc to heal. Better to think more in terms of months rather than day's weeks for this slowest department of the body to self heal....nerves. ORDER OF NERVE HEALING There is not a time table, just the known order. Think more in term of months rather than days/weeks for this slowest part of the body to self-heal. Tell us where Ghost is on this predictable step by step return of function 1. _Deep Pain Sensation: the first neuro function to return. DPS is the critical indicator for nerves to be able to self heal after surgery or with conservative treatment.
Trust only the word of a neuro (ACVIM) or ortho (ACVS) surgeon about this very tricky to correctly identify neuro function. 2. _ Tail wagging with joy at specifically hearing happy talk, seeing you or getting food. 3. _ Bladder and bowel control verified with the "sniff and pee" test. 4. 5/3 Weak rear leg movement, to reposition in the recovery suite __ ability to move up into a standing position, and then _wobbly walking. 5. __ Being able to walk with more steadiness and __ properly place the paw without it knuckling under. 6. __ Ability to walk unassisted and perhaps even run.
LEARN MORE: dodgerslist.com/2021/02/06/nerve-healing-after-disc-episode/Knuckling under paw:  Make sure your mind is educated on each of the 4 phases of healing during a disc episode. With that information your mind can rest. You will then have the ability to ask the right questions and better understand a vet. Here is the link to the CONSERVATIVE ROADMAP. Tape it to your fridge for handy reference. ROADMAP Avoid dangerous detours with the Conservative Roadmap. VIEW, DOWNLOAD and print: dodgerslist.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/Roadmap-for-Fridge.pdf**  For example after looking at the road map, you can clearly understand that the ER does not know IVDD! --Of course ER doesn't know when to taper. -- NO VET KNOWS when to taper. -- EVERY vet must guess at the number of days to be on pred. -- Most often vets choose a 7-day or a 14-day pred course. THEN the test for pain begins on the taper day. --- Of course if a dog is showing pain when on pain meds, that would not be time to taper. That would be the time to get those pain med adjusted for full comfort night and day whilst pred is at work on the root cause of the pain up at the original anti-inflammatory level dose 2x/day. On Monday you will call your normal vet. See the soonest you can get in for an exam in order that he would be able to give you the taper dose. UNLESS, by luck he will give you the taper dose over the phone. Your practicing with us by using dates, names of meds ( mgs and x/day), clearly stating observations of pain or neuro makes it easier to accurately communicate things to a vet. Easier to advocate on behalf of Ghost. It is best you bring the laser device to the vet for his directive on using it. When it is time and safe for you to do very light ROM and toe work, we can explain how to do it. Right now the entire focus is on strict rest of the back with little movement so that the disc can heal and cause no more harm to the spinal cord. Please let us know what you find out on Monday 5/6 from your vet. |
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Post by Laurie & Ghost on May 5, 2024 19:50:36 GMT -7
Thanks I’ll be sure you update you with the following information Monday .
As of today [DATE 5/5] ghost is eating and using the bathroom on his own.
I noticed his bark got really low I’m not sure if it’s from the cbd or maybe frm all the days he was painting before I gave him the cbd. Have you experienced this ?
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,941
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Post by PaulaM on May 6, 2024 11:46:07 GMT -7
Laurie, before replying to your posts, we go back and re-read your previous posts to refresh our mind on Ghost. When you reference today, last week, etc, reading an old post makes us have to STOP and calculate the date of what yesterday or today means. That delays time before we finally get to the important stuff of replying. Thank you for understanding and helping us.
Do let us know what the vet's take is about Ghost's change in bark sound.
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Post by Laurie & Ghost on May 11, 2024 13:07:41 GMT -7
Hi today is 5/11/2024 and I was finally able to get ghost in to see a vet to establish primary care since we’re new to the area.
At the appointment I was giving the RX instructions for prednisone . Ghost has been on prednisone a total of 11 days and the doctor told me to continue giving him 1 tablet in a half
[meaning 1 ½ of a 5mg tab?] for the next 7 days . After the 7 days she wants me to reduce him to 1 tablet a day for 14 days then a half of tablet for another 14 days then a half of tablet every other day . I think this is too long. Does these instructions sound about right?
[Moderator's note: please do not modify
25-30 lbs 3y.o
name of Steroid shot 4/31
Prednisone as of 5/1: 7.5mgs 1x/day for 11 days
new vet as of 5/11: 7.5mg 1x/day for 7 days, 5/18 taper for _pain for _neuro
Gabapentin 200mg 2x/day
Methocarbamol 500mg ?x/day
CDB oil ?mg ?x/day
Pepcid AC 20 mgs 2x/day]
Ghost is eating and using the bathroom Normal. . It seems like he’s back to his self he just isn’t using his back legs . The prednisone has also lowered his bark . He sounds a bit hoarse but the doctor said it’s the prednisone.
Ghost will start acupuncture on the 17th I’m extremely happy about that. Hopefully that helps him regain his mobility.
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Post by Romy & Frankie on May 11, 2024 13:38:42 GMT -7
I am happy to hear that Ghost is more like his normal self. Nerves take a long time to heal so we have to think in terms of weeks and months to see improvement, not days.
He has been on pred for 11 days and the vet wants him on the full dose for another 7 days before a taper. A total of 18 days on the full dose is longer than we usually see. Perhaps since you vet has not seen Ghost before she is sort of starting from scratch or not considering how long he has been on the pred prior to this.
Were you able to find an acupuncturist that will come to the house? |
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,941
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Post by PaulaM on May 11, 2024 15:34:33 GMT -7
Laurie, I agree with Romy above....what is "possibly too long" is the time on the anti-inflammatory level of Prednisone 1x/day- 7.5mg (1 ½ tab) for 18 days without a sooner taper test date to find out if even needed at this point in time.
What did the vet explain about the relationship of pred and hoarseness...how does that work?
Prednisone has lots of potential serious side effects. NO one should want a dog on pred one bit past the benefit of all painful swelling all gone! Being on pred to deal with a disc episode is a miracle and worth the risk of its side effects. Using pred when there is no benefit remaining, just subjects a dog to all of its side effect but no more benefit to get. The pred taper tells if there is a real actual need for anti-inflammatory level pred to remain on board.
No one knows if all pain is really gone til the pred taper begins. AND usually each of the pain meds (gabapentin, Methocarbamol) are also stopped on the pred taper date.
-- What was the reason the pred taper date could not start TODAY 5/11?
-- Did you get instructions about full stopping the pain pain meds on projected Pred taper start date of May 18th?
The length of the tapering down part is partially related to how long the dog had been on the anti-inflammatory dose (18 days). The taper part must be followed precisely as the vet has directed for your dog. This ensures you dog will get the signal to again start making his own steroid hormone, cortisol.
You write today with a non-specific statement "he just isn’t using his back legs " What does that mean exactly?
Could you update us about specific changes in nerves (improvement or worsening) since you last noted on 5/3:
Nerves can self heal, with time and when the spine is protected from excessive movement during the 8 weeks it takes to heal the disc.
- No one can give you a timeline for healing.
- It is known the usual order nerves heal in.
- AND that one ought to think in terms of months rather than days/weeks for this slowest part of the body to self-heal.
Weigh the risks vs. the benefit
The single most important of care is the part where Ghost's early healing disc is safe inside his recovery suite. All transports are risky to the early healing disc of too much movement of the spine. A 25-30 lbs dog can also be more a challenge of safety to the spine when lifting carrying.
It was a true emergency to get in with a vet to know how to deal with the prednisone taper. When weighing the risk to the disc with a transport into the vet, the appointment was a necessary benefit worth the risk to get the proper and safe way to signal Ghost's body to make his own steroid hormone again.
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Post by Laurie & Ghost on May 15, 2024 20:39:39 GMT -7
Hi here’s 5/15/24 update **
The doctor corrected the RX instructions and has ghost on 5 mg for one week. Then he will go to half then entry other day until
He’s whined off .
[Moderator's note: please do not modify
25-30 lbs 3y.o
name of Steroid shot 4/31
Prednisone (5mg tablet) as of 5/1: 7.5mgs 1x/ day for 20 days,
as of 5/15: 5mgs ?x/day for 7 days
Gabapentin 200mg 2x/day
Methocarbamol 500mg ?x/day
Trazadone ?mg ?x/day
CDB oil ?mg ?x/day
Pepcid AC 20 mgs 2x/day]
I have him ✙trazadone for the first time he was prescribed 1/4 that did not make him sleepy. He still barked at the gardener non stop and [date?]even broke out his play pen and crawled in the living room . I was shook!! I think I need to up his dose to 1 /2 instead .
Also he has acupuncture Friday and I have to actually travel with him as I cannot find a mobile one in my area ( this really sucks ) because I don’t like moving him Out his crate area due to further injuring him . ( don’t even take him out to use the restroom even tho I would like too. ) do you guys think it’s safe to take him outside with a strap :/ support lift that helps me lift the back legs ?
I’m also finding myself still having to help him release his bladder even tho he does urine a lot . I just need that extra assurance that his bladder isn’t full.
Other then that ghost is in good spirits he just wants to get back to his playful life which he can’t unfortunately tend too… also I want to bath him… how would u guys suggest that I do so?
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,941
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Post by PaulaM on May 16, 2024 14:08:25 GMT -7
Laurie, we'd love to be able to write you with useful information this moment. It is frustrating to not be able to quickly provide a comment for your questions. Our comments are based on your description of what you observe, details of meds (mgs, x/day), dates of events. Could you fill us in and bring us up to date: My May 11 question (I don't think you read): "You write today [5/11] with a non-specific statement "he just isn’t using his back legs " What does that mean exactly?
Could you update us about specific changes in nerves (improvement or worsening) since you last noted on 5/3:Can Ghost still as of 5/15 use his back legs to reposition his body in the suite?
Please describe what you observe about his rear leg movements.BLADDER: 1. Are you now indicating Ghost no longer has bladder control as of what DATE? Can he no longer sniff and then release urine on an old pee spot which is proof of bladder control?2. Are you observing that his bladder is overflowing in his bedding and when you lift him, his bladder overflows onto you? 3. That you now must manually press on his bladder (express the bladder) with your hands?
"As of today [DATE 5/5] ghost is eating and using the bathroom on his own."
"[5/15] I’m also finding myself still having to help him release his bladder even tho he does urine a lot."
4. Did you get a hands on you hands type of expressing lesson at the vet? We were hoping to learn the details on that issue.
ACUPUNcTUREThis is a service you choose. You make the decision about the real potential of disc risk with a trip in VS. the safety to the healing disc of remaining at home inside of the recovery suite. Nerves self-heal on their own with time. Discs heal all on their own with time of 8 weeks.. The difference is that nerves are the slowest part of the body to heal....think in terms of months rather than days/weeks.POTTY TIME OUTDOORSThis is a decision you make 1. Can you safely for your back and safely for carrying and keeping his back horizontal to the ground..... a 25-30 lbs dog out to the grass? 2. No other dogs, distractions can be allowed outdoors at potty time.You'd either control his darting off with a 6 foot leash attached to a HARNESS as you stand in one spot. Or you would choose to contain him inside of a 6' diameter fences in area. An ex-pen makes a good containment area.3. A sling in either case would be used to prevent the back end from tipping over causing too much movement to the back.
PREDNISONE ADJUSTMENTDate change starts?5mgs to be given how many times a day? for 7 days
TRAZADONE ?mg ?x/day
BATHS -- No bath is safe for the healing disc. Way too much potential of movement to disrupt the scar tissue trying to form. -- Keep him clean with non-scented baby wipes. -- Obtain some of those cheap washcloths from the dollar store. Use the stack of washcloths as you need them to clean up fur and skin. Marjorie's tip as well as lot's of other great care tips on this page under the heading: INCONTINENCE TIPS dodgerslist.com/2020/05/14/strict-rest-recovery-processMarjorie’s tip: boil and cool decaf green tea to dampen a washcloth, neutralizes urine on skin and fur to avoid rashes from urine scald + leaves a clean fragrance. |
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Post by Laurie & Ghost on May 19, 2024 9:58:22 GMT -7
Good morning ,
My apologies for the miscommunication.
What I meant by he isn’t using his back legs is he isn’t standing up on his back legs yet. He tries to walk but the back legs are dragging.. i haven’t noticed any function in his legs as of yet . He is able to walk on his sling but I don’t let him do it often because I’m so afraid . He’s gonna further injure him self . May I ask when is it ok to allow him to use the sling? I’ve also noticed that I may need to order a new sling because the one I have covers his penis which makes it hard for him to urin.
As of 5/19/24
He is able to release bowel but the times I’ve taken him outside he has not urinated . Im not sure if it’s because the sling I’m using because again it’s covering his penis . He also has not taken a bowel outside. In fact everytime I take him outside he just goes to my car with hopes of jumping inside thinking I’m gonna take him
To Starbucks for a pup cup haha . I will step out of my fear and allow him to go outside more using his sling so to can get back use to urinating outside . I’ve also been using an electric toothbrush on his feet and legs to try to stimulate or help wake the nerves . So far I don’t see any type of movement yet in his back legs . he is able to move his self around his suite but the back legs are dragging. Is there anything I can do to make sure he doesn’t loose muscle in his back legs ?
BLADDER:
1 . As of 5/19/23
It’s hard for me to say if ghost has control of his bladder because he isn’t getting outside much . But he does urin in his suite and it’s a lot . Ghost doesn’t usually urin that often normally I believe it’s the steroids . I’m not having to suppress his bladder often . However I do it to insure he is actually emptying it on his on.
Sadly I did not receive instructions on how to empty his bladder from the vet . However, with the instructions I received from doddgylist and a few YouTube videos I have successfully been able to make sure his bladder isn’t full .
As of acupuncture I did decide not to travel With him to the appointment. Atlease not this early even tho o believe that I can safely lift him and hold him During the car ride . I decided to move the appointment back two weeks from now . Any advice on home exercises? Or activities that could be done in the home ? Should I allow him
To crawl around ever ? Also I have a wheel chair … should this be allowed?
Can you also show me some examples of how to use the sling with a 6foot leach ..
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,941
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Post by PaulaM on May 19, 2024 11:04:54 GMT -7
Laurie, It sounds like things are not right about pottytime. Correct me if I'm getting the wrong impression. Make sure Ghost never is fored to release urine where he sleeps because he has no other choice. Since you are reporting he lacks bladder control, his bladder is stretching to the fullest. Then reflexes allow some urine to escape. This continued over stretching of the bladder can ruin its tone...not good should bladder control someday come back. Urine accidents can happen if you did not get to him in time for a potty break. But normally NEVER should Ghost be forced to release urine in his bedding called "OVERFLOWING. An overflowing bladder is not a good thing. While on pred you should be giving him a potty break every 2-3 hrs. Once off of pred you can express the bladder every 3-4hr or even 4-6 hrs and he will stay dry in his bedding. POTTY TIME 1) Place a pee pad nearby outside of his suite for him to pee on. At potty time let him take but a few minimal footsteps with front legs to get to that pee pad with the aid of a REAR LEG SLING for Ghost. The pee pad should have some old urine placed on it to sniff and encourage Ghost to know it is ok to pee on the pad. 2) If he does not release urine after sniffing the old pee stain on the pee pad, HE DOESN'T have bladder control. You MUST express his bladder from now on every 2-3 hrs while on prednisone! No need to do the sniff and pee test again... just express his bladder on a regular basis .... every 2-3 hrs while on pred. NOT SAFE Taking him outdoors to the grass is not likley a safe situation due to his 30lbs weight to lift, carry and set down safely on an old pee spot. Anyway that is the picture you painted for us when we asked you. Let us know the details if things are different now.Right now the SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT CARE is inside of the suite at home until the DATE of Graduation on JUNE 26
Mark your calendar to stick to STRICT rest until graduation day -- no wheelchair -- no vet visits for acupuncture -- no back leg physical therapy at home or anywhere else -- no dragging his back legs when out of the suite for expressing the bladder Use a rear sling. WAYS TO CONTROL GHOST FROM DARTING OFF in the home at potty time: A sling is used as back up to catch a wobbly dog's butt and prevent twisting the back. Any sling needs to be accompanied by a front harness and leash to control speed to the very slow minimal footsteps to reach the pee pad adjacent to the crate. A figure 8 DIY sling works especially well for the male dog anatomy at potty times. Always try to keep the back horizontal to the ground as much as possible.So you will be holding the sling AND the leash attached to his harness in one hand while he takes those very few footsteps out of the suite onto the adjacent pee pad 👀Look at image below. The top left person is standing with one hand grasping both the sling AND THE leash. Only you will be doing the same inside your house to get to the pee pad. 2) DIY figure-8 sling:  |
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Post by Laurie & Ghost on May 27, 2024 10:04:26 GMT -7
Thanks for the bathroom advice.
I’ve since been making sure ghost urines outside
His suite and that has been going well.
He still have accidents here and they which I’ve been trying my best to prevent.
Ghost hasn’t Been able to stand up using his back legs as of yet.
So I’m still supporting him .
He is also still not Urinating on his own … is this normal ?
Also on 5/28
Ghost will reduced to half of prednisone .
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,941
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Post by PaulaM on May 27, 2024 10:56:02 GMT -7
Laurie, would you share the detail of what "outside the crate" means....are you using a pee pad adjacent to the crate or taking him to grass outside?
Do the sniff and pee test periodically weather using a pee pad adjacent to crate or if taken to grass outdoors.
Standing is a HUGE neuro improvement that comes with time--thinks months rather than days/weeks.
What is he ABLE to do today with the back legs?
Can he still as you reported on 5/3 still use his back legs to reposition his body in the suite?
IF a dog can move their back legs at all, even if only to weakly try to reposition in the crate, they might have some degree of bladder control. Until you confirm bladder control you must manually express the bladder to keep bladder infection (UTI) from happening if there is an overflowing bladder.
1. _√_ Deep Pain Sensation: the first neuro function to return.
2. _√_ Tail wagging with joy at specifically hearing happy talk, seeing you or getting food.
3. 5/1? No Bladder and bowel control. Verified via the "sniff and pee" test.
4. 5/3 Weak rear leg movement to attempt to reposition in the recovery suite
__ ability to move up into a standing position, and then
_ wobbly walking.
5. __ Being able to walk with more steadiness and
__ properly place the paw without it knuckling under.
6. __ Ability to walk unassisted and perhaps even run.
SNIFF and PEE
The "sniff and pee test" is the only way for humans to determine whether bladder control exists.
-- Carry the dog outdoors, set him down on an old pee spot for a sniff.
-- Make sure that neither the sling nor your hands are on the stomach region as this could put pressure on the bladder similar to the act of manually expressing the bladder.
-- If urine comes out after sniffing, bladder control is returning.
-- Until you are certain that full voiding is always occurring, continue to do a quick express check after dog pees. Tell us what you observe.
PREDNISONE
Because we can't see your med bottles, we really do not know the meaning of general statements.
Would you kindly be specific when mentioning medications.
on 5/28 prednisone (5mg whole tablet) will be reduced to:
1) 1/2 tablet, dose on 5/28: 2.5mgs
2) How many times a day is the 2.5mgs dose given?
With a prednisone taper, the pain meds are usually stopped on the same date PRED tapers (5/28). This allows YOU at home the ability to quickly and accurately assess of pred taper should continue. OR if you would observe any hint of pain, to alert the vet for a likely additional course of pred. With Ghost having been on pred for 27 DAYs, I've got my fingers crossed all the painful swelling is really gone.
HOWEVER, no one has proof all swelling is gone til the pain meds are stopped.
Would you update us on gabapentin (?mg ?x/day) and methocarbamol (?mg ?x/day )?
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Post by Laurie & Ghost on May 27, 2024 13:17:36 GMT -7
Hi Paula ,
I rotate from outside potting to Pee pas adjacent from crate .
I like to switch it up to give him a bit more freedom .
I is doing a lot of sniffing outside and is even moving as if he wants to pee but again the sling I have goes under his stomach so I’m gonna try to make the one you send me today.
Ghost has not been showing any signs of pain and have not had any ➖pain meds since may 17th . I’ll give him cbd chews when he so signs of being anxious or trying to move rapidly.
[Moderator's note: please do not modify
25-30 lbs 3y.o
name of Steroid shot 4/31
Prednisone (5mg tablet) as of 5/1: 7.5mgs 1x/ day for 20 days,
as of 5/15: 5mgs ?x/day for 7 days
as of 5/28: 2.5mgs ?x/day
Gabapentin 200mg 2x/day STOPPED 5/17
Methocarbamol 500mg ?x/daySTOPPED 5/17
Trazadone 25mg 1x/day STOPPED due to causing loose stools
CDB chews for anxiety
Pepcid AC 20 mgs 2x/day]
I haven’t observed his back legs doing much however I did notice his feet responding to a vibrating tooth brush that I moved around his toes . His feet started to jump.. that’s the only movement I see with his legs . Also today when I was expressing his bladder I seen his left leg shaking..
He’s able to reposition his self in his suite but he does so using the front legs .
Also I stopped the ➖Trazadone do to it causing runny stool every time it was used . He also never went to sleep on it. I think it made his anxiety worse .
He was prescribed Trazadone 50 mg and was instructed to take 1/4 once a day .
The only med ghost is takeoff is Prednisone 5mg he will take 1 tablet today and will be reduced to a half of tablet .
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Post by Laurie & Ghost on Jun 2, 2024 12:34:25 GMT -7
May 31st Ghost received his first round of acupuncture which went well. Ghost was completely relaxed after . The doctor recommended that I start tapering ghost of prednisone sooner .[DATE?] Recommending a half of pill every other day instead of the half a pill for 14 days then another 14 days of him taking a half of pill every other day.
[Moderator's note: please do not modify
25-30 lbs 3y.o
name of Steroid shot 4/31
Prednisone (5mg tablet) as of 5/1: 7.5mgs 1x/ day for 20 days,
as of 5/15: 5mgs ?x/day for 7 days
as of 5/28: 2.5mgs ?x/day
as of 6/2: 2.5mgs 1x/day EOD for 14 days, finals dose Je 15.
Trazadone 25mg 1x/day STOPPED due to causing loose stools
CDB chews for anxiety
Pepcid AC 20 mgs 2x/day]
I was a bit sad during the appointment because the doctor told me at the moment Ghost nolonger had deep pain sensation and that it was only a 5% chance that acupuncture would be successful or that he would ever walk again. Ghost spinE is also a bit raised/ sticking out which I thought was do to a little weight loss but he said it can be due to his ivdd injury. I’m going to keep faith because god has the final say. The doctor recommended that I continue the red light therapy and that I lift of the skin near his spine to stimulate blood ( which I’m scared to do) . Is that actually safe ? Other then that ghost had been in better spirits and has even tried to stand a little . He’s a warrior I know he’s gonna walk out of this crate !!
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,941
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Post by PaulaM on Jun 2, 2024 13:41:05 GMT -7
Laurie, this is good news that finally you can get a realistic and accurate assessment about pain with pred being tapered. We LOVE dates, mgs, x/day information!What is the date the pred taper is to start?
Is a whole pred tab still 5mgs?
How many mgs will be the pred dose?
How many times a day will you give that mg dose every other day?
I am sorry to have to repeat this but the ONLY vet you can trust to tell you about deep pain sensation is a board certified Neuro or Ortho surgeon. General vets just do not get enough practice or training to be able to correctly identify DPS.The safe things again for Ghost are:--- to stay at home inside of his recovery suite until graduation day of 6/26--- to only go for a vet visit when there is true life/death emergency. Acupuncture is not a life death emergency. You are betting with Lady Luck. Betting maybe an acupuncture trip in won't be too much movement. It is Ghost's body that heals his own nerves. It would be tragic for there to be a set back to his healing disc with a car transport when there was no emergency.-- When Ghost is FULLY OFF ALL MEDS and you observe no pain, THEN we will show you how to do the safest of exercise at home until 6/26 graduation day. This button display under Ghost's TREATMENTS reminds you and us when to explain the how to.
We'd LOVE the detail of your observations
-- Describe exactly what you saw that made you report "has even tried to stand"
Did you see the leg movement when at potty time?
Did Ghost attempt to push up with his back legs in his crate?
Did he make the stand completely up to be standing all on his own on 4 legs...no help at all from a sling?
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Post by Laurie & Ghost on Jun 2, 2024 23:37:10 GMT -7
Pred Taper started may 21. Ghost is now instructed to have half of a 5mg pred which is 2.5mg once every other day.
* I noticed him attempting to stand he got half way up then his legs started to shake and he came back down . At this time he was not on a sling he was on all four legs .
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,941
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Post by PaulaM on Jun 3, 2024 11:56:26 GMT -7
Laurie, your reported observation about 6/2ish(?) of an attempt to get up into a stand with the back legs is in conflict with these two things:
1. There is no confirmation that Ghost can pass the sniff and pee test to give proof positive about ability to control his bladder.
2. The remark your local DVM vet made doctor told me at the moment Ghost no longer had deep pain sensation.
I surely want to know what actually is going on with Ghost's neuro functions, as I'm sure you do too! Without first having DPS, NO dog would be able to....
--- move up into a stand
--- sniff and pee
--- do a happy tail stump/butt wag
Could you please do the Sniff and Pee Test again and report back your specific observations, date, etc.? Remember no sling should be pressing on this tummy area during the test. Use you hands to support his thighs to keep him standing for the Test or use the rear figure 8 sling that does not even touch the tummy area.
Is he still able today to give a happy butt wriggle/tail stump wag?
GHOST's reported neuro function status
1. _√_ Deep Pain Sensation: the first neuro function to return.
Most DVM vets incorrectly ID this function.
2. _√_ Tail wagging with joy at specifically hearing happy talk, seeing you or getting food.
3. 5/1? No Bladder control. Verified via the "sniff and pee" test.
4. 5/3 reported: Weak rear leg movement to attempt to reposition in the recovery suite
6/2ish reported: attempted to move up into a stand position with back legs, and then
___ wobbly walking.
5. ___ Being able to walk with more steadiness and
__ properly place the paw without it knuckling under.
6. __ Ability to walk unassisted and perhaps even run.
Thank you for the pred detail:
as of 6/2: 2.5mgs 1x/day EOD for 14 days, final dose Je 15.
Remind us on June 15, about the last every other day pred dose and if no pain had surfaced. We will be able to share with you some safe at-home very, very light things for his rear legs to keep them in shape until return of rear leg neuro functions.
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Post by Laurie & Ghost on Jun 22, 2024 11:13:38 GMT -7
Hi Paula as of jun 23rd ghost still is not releasing his own bladder .
He sniffs tree then lean towards them as if he wants to pee but nothing is released .
All prednisone has stopped as of this week. [6/19] Wednesday to be exact .
Ghost seems to be well. As we’re coming to the end of his crate rest I was wondering if you can give me some suggestions as to how to move forward. Do I let him crawl around? Do I get him wheels? I didn’t prepare for this because I assumed he would be up and back mobile like everyone else’s story that I’ve came across:( . I still have hope though. I’m gonna get him into some therapy for sure . Are there any exercises I can do at home ? Well thanks in advance
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Post by Romy & Frankie on Jun 22, 2024 13:21:53 GMT -7
Healing can still take place after crate rest is over, so you are right to still have hope. Dogs have regained function 6 months and for a few even a year after the disc episode
Besides, not being able to sniff and pee, is he still wagging his tail (butt) and trying to push himself to a standing position?
Since Ghost is now off all meds and is showing no signs of pain, you can begin some light range of motion exercises. You can find information and a video of these exercises at the link below:
After graduation, it is safe for the healed disc to begin active physical therapy, and we can discuss other options for you to consider based on Ghost's condition at that time. |
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