|
|
Post by Beth & Maddie on May 4, 2021 8:09:00 GMT -7
☆ 1 12 poundsGabapentin suspension 250mg....1.5 ml by mouth every 12 hours.Methocarbamol 100mg oral susp....06 ml by mouth every 12 hoursRimadyl chewable 25mg.....1/2 chewable every 12 hours.[Moderator's Note. Please do not edit
12 lbs
Rimadyl as of ? : 12.5 mgs 2x/day for ? days, then a test STOP for: _pain / _neuro
gabapentin formula? ?mgs per 0ne mL: ?mgs (1.5mL dose) 2x/day
methocarbamol formula? ?mgs per 0ne mL: ?mg 2x/day
needs GI tract protector, Pepcid AC, on board w/Rimadyl! ] ☆ 2 Dachschund,. Maddie. I am Beth☆ 3 I took Maddie to Blue Pearl Emergency Vet. Tentative diagnosis: Intervertebral disc narrowed, Intervertebral disc disease☆ 4 We came home after being gone for 45 minutes to find Maddie with her back end down. She has no use of her back legs. This was Sunday May 2nd. We had her at the emergency vet within the hour. She has been on crate rest since we found her injured.POTTY TIME Carry to and from the recovery suite to the potty place and then allow a very few limited footsteps. Using a sling (long winter scarf, ace bandage, belt) will save your back and help to keep a wobbly dog's back aligned and butt from tipping over. A harness and 6 foot leash is to control speed and keep footsteps to minimum as you stand in one spot. An ex-pen in the grass is an excellent alternative to minimizing footsteps with the physical and visual to indicate there will be no sniff festing going on!
 ☆ 5 Maddie was given a pain injection at the ER [5/2]. She has not seemed to be in much pain. Discomfort I'm sure but she seems comfortable now at home with the meds she gets. I have had other doxies that have been on crate rest due to IVVD. They always had more pain than Maddie seems to have currently. But they never completely lost the use of the legs.☆ 6 Maddie is unable to use her back legs. They are like cooked noodles when i try to get her out to potty. Currently she wears a diaper so she doesn't have to stress about potty time right now. Her tail has started to wag a little now. She shook last night and once this morning. She hadn't done that since before her injury.☆ 7 Maddie is unable to squat to urinate. I have a diaper on her. She did urinate in it on day 2 and then during the night last night she pooped a little and urinated.☆ 8 Eating and drinking are good. I put water in with her food...raw diet...and her poop seemed normal.
I have not given her pepcid. Unsure of the amount and when I should do that. |
|
|
|
Post by Romy & Frankie on May 4, 2021 13:50:32 GMT -7
Welcome to Dodgerslist, Beth. We are glad you’ve joined us all. We’ve got valuable information we’ve learned from the vets Dodgerslist consults with and our own experiences with IVDD since 2002 to share with you! Learn more about us and how we team up with veterinarians: dodgerslist.com/about-team-dodgerslist/
Maddie should not be in any pain at all. Pain will slow the healing process. Shaking can be a sign of pain. When you say she shook, was it like shivering in pain or was it more like a dog would shake if they were wet? These are the signs of pain we look for; ☐shivering, trembling ☐yelping when picked up or moved ☐reluctant to move much in crate such as shift positions or slow to move ☐tight tense tummy ☐can’t find a comfortable position ☐Arched back ☐ Holding front or back leg flamingo style not wanting to bear weight ☐head held high or nose to the ground ☐Not their normal perky selves? Full pain relief is expected in 1 hour and stays that way between doses. If you are seeing any of these signs of pain, particularly more than one, let the vet know what you are seeing right away so that Maddie's pain meds can be adjusted.
Strict crate rest is a critical part of recovery for a dog being treated conservatively. We have some information about how that works and how to set up the recovery suite here: dodgerslist.com/2020/05/14/strict-rest-recovery-process
We know that a dog has bladder control when they can pass the "sniff and pee" test. Carry Maddie to an old potty spot, support her with a sling or with your hands and let her sniff. When using a sling, make sure it is not pressing on the bladder. If she releases urine right after sniffing she has bladder control. If not, bladder control has not returned.
Many times dogs whose legs have become paralyzed also lose bladder control and do not have the ability to empty the bladder. If she cannot yet "sniff and pee" it is likely that the urine you found in her diaper was the result of overflow. Overflow is when the bladder becomes so full of urine that some urine is released by reflex. But reflex can not get all the urine out. When our dogs cannot empty the bladder by themselves we must help them by expressing. This is important because stale urine in the bladder can lead to urinary tract infections and too much urine left in the bladder can lead to the bladder becoming permanently overstretched and cause problems even when bladder control returns.
Expressing is a matter of physics. We apply pressure to the bladder strong enough and long enough to overcome the strength of the urinary sphincter and push the urine out. Expressing is best learned by a hand-on lesson from the vet. We have information on expressing here: dodgerslist.com/2020/05/05/bladder-bowel-care/
When Maddie wagged her tail, was it in response to a treat or happy talk from you?
For how many days was the Rimadyl prescribed?
All anti-inflammatories, like Rimadyl, cause excess stomach acid which can lead to serious stomach damage. To prevent this a stomach protector like Pepcid AC is important. The usual dose of Pepcid AC (famotidine) for dogs is 0.44mg per pound, 30 mins before the anti-inflammatory and thereafter every 12 hours for as long as your dog is on the anti-inflammatory. For Maddie at 12 lbs this would be 5 mg 2x/day. Ask the vet if Maddie has any health reasons that would prevent the use of Pepcid AC and if the answer is no you can buy Pepcid AC (famotidine) in any supermarket or drugstore.
It is scary when our dogs are diagnosed with IVDD. It becomes less so when we learn all we can about the disease. At the MAIN WEBSITE, use the orange SEARCH bar feature to easily access more IVDD information. dodgerslist.com/
|
|
|
|
Post by Beth & Maddie on May 5, 2021 12:47:07 GMT -7
Hello,
Thank you for all your help and information!
Maddie has a follow up appointment on Friday with her regular vet. We will address all her meds at that point, get refills etc. I feel she is comfortable as she is relaxed, not tense or trembling. I did add ✙pepcid to her list of meds today.
[Moderator's Note. Please do not edit
12 lbs
Rimadyl as of date? : 12.5 mgs 2x/day for ? days, then a test STOP for: _pain / _neuro
gabapentin formula? ?mgs per 0ne mL: ?mgs (1.5mL dose) 2x/day
methocarbamol formula? ?mgs per 0ne mL: ?mg 2x/day
✙Pepcid AC (famotidine) ?mg ?x/day ]
I had mentioned she shook...it was the kind where they shake after they are wet.
I read what you said about the bladder and overflow. Since her appointment is not until Friday I looked on Youtube and figured out how to express her bladder. It was much easier than i expected. How many times a day should I do that? I was thinking 4...first thing in the morning, noon, early evening and before bed.
She has been having a bowel movement daily now.
How much water does a 12 pound dog need daily. I don't have a dish of water in her pen as it would get dumped. I have been putting 1/4 cup water in with each meal and then giving her a drink at other times. She has been getting a cup a day. Plus she eats raw so there is moisture in her food.
I have a pen on each level of our house so she can be where we are. One is right at the patio door so she can see outside.
I almost forgot to add...today when i expressed her bladder i swear she tried to hold up her back end just for a second. Her legs went back to noodles but I have great hope that she is starting to have some improvement. Baby steps!
Thank you again for your time and your help!
Beth
|
|
|
|
Post by Romy & Frankie on May 5, 2021 13:34:46 GMT -7
Very good news that you are having an easy time expressing Madddie's bladder. You know you have got it right when you get a steady stream and there is no wet bedding. In the beginning you should express fairly often. This is because while learning you may not be getting all the urine out. After you feel proficient, you can increase the time between expressing. Most dogs eventually need to be expressed about as often as they used to go out to potty.
If Maddie is trying to hold her back end up that is an encouraging sign.
The shake you saw from Maddie does not seem to be the kind we associate with pain. The kind of shake that would indicate pain would be more of a trembling.
As a general rule of thumb, dogs should drink about an ounce per lb, but that is only a general suggestion. Other factors like amount of exercise and temperature affect the amount needed. The ounce per lb would include water from all sources including her food. You could leave water in her crate like the arrangement in the picture below. Then she could drink water freely and the water would be much less likely to tip over.
|
|
PaulaM
Moderator. 
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,544
|
Post by PaulaM on May 5, 2021 18:59:59 GMT -7
Beth, would you complete the med list for us (PINK Is missing info)...thanks bunches!
Formulas should be written on the bottle.
Rimadyl started on what date? : 12.5 mgs 2x/day for #? days
gabapentin formula? (?mgs in one mL): ?mgs (1.5mL dose) 2x/day
methocarbamol formula? (?mgs in one mL): ?mg 2x/day
Pepcid AC (famotidine) ?mg ?x/day
|
|
|
|
Post by Beth & Maddie on May 11, 2021 11:03:49 GMT -7
[Moderator read and marked. Please do not edit. If there is correction or addition, please make a new post. Thanks! ]
Rimadyl started on what date? May 2 : 12.5 mgs 2x/day for unknown days
gabapentin 300mg capsule 2x/day
methocarbamol 62 mg (1/8 of a 500 mg tab): 2x/day
Pepcid AC (famotidine) 5mg 2x/day
[Moderator's Note. Please do not edit
12 lbs
Rimadyl as of 8/2020: 12.5mgs 1x/day for arthritis
as 5/2 : 12.5 mgs 2x/day for ? days,
as of 5/7: 12.5mgs 2x/day for ? days, then stop test _pain/_neuro
gabapentin formula? ?mgs per 0ne mL: ?mgs (1.5mL dose) 2x/day
gabapentin as of 5/7: ⚠️300mgs capsule: ⚠️300mgs 2x/day
methocarbamol formula? ?mgs per 0ne mL: ?mg 2x/day
methocarbamol as of 5/7: 500mgs tab: 62.5mgs 2x/day
Pepcid AC (famotidine) as of 5/5: 5mgs 2x/day ]
Maddie is on day 10 of crate rest.
She had a follow up Friday May 7th with our vet who extended the prescriptions for her. Methacarbomol, Gabapentin and Rimadyl [extended # days?] along with ✙pepcid.
I am able to get Maddie to urinate 4 times a day outside and she has been pooping everyday. I hold her back end up and plant her back feet. I then express her and she goes pee pretty good. She seems to squat a little when she pees even though she can't hold her back end up.
We bought a stroller for Maddie. That was the best money we spent! She is able to be outside and get some fresh air more often but still be in a safe place.
I'm sure everyone has been through the emotions that im going through right now. I feel hopeful and then I worry that she will never improve. Sometimes I cry with sadness and frustration. I'm waiting to see that sign that she is headed towards getting her legs back. She has been such a good sport through it all.
Thank you for the guidance you provide. This would be a scary thing without the help received!!
Beth & Maddie
|
|
PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,544
|
Post by PaulaM on May 11, 2021 11:24:58 GMT -7
Beth, please double check the gabapentin capsule size. A 300mgs capsule 2x/day is VERY large dosing for a 12lbs dog.
EMAIL ALERTS
Timely communications are needed when helping your dog. How to register and set up for email alerts when you have received a reply: dodgerslist.boards.net/thread/7353/register-bookmark-dogs-post-thread
|
|
|
|
Post by Beth & Maddie on May 11, 2021 11:31:41 GMT -7
It is 300mg Gabapentin. I just double checked.
I also googled the image of the capsule and it is a 300mg.
|
|
PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,544
|
Post by PaulaM on May 11, 2021 11:39:20 GMT -7
I've seen large doses, but done so after finding out pain was not controlled.
You did not supply the formula on the body for the liquid gabapentin, so we have no frame of reference. Liquid gabapentin formula: ?mgs gabapentin in one mL of liquid?
Is Maddie more sleepy, lethgaric with 300mgs gabapentin every 12 hrs? IF so, do call your own vet who prescribed 300mgs 2x/day and relay your observations.
|
|
|
|
Post by Beth & Maddie on May 11, 2021 11:42:30 GMT -7
She is on capsules and not liquid now.
I have not noticed her to be more sleepy since switching to the capsules. She has been taking them for about 2 1/2 days now.
I have not been given an end date for the rimadyl. The vet seemed to think she would be taking all these meds for another 6+ weeks.
I was able to find that the liquid dose of Gabapentin was 250mg/1.5 ml/every 12 hours. [forumula is unknown/not available]
|
|
PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,544
|
Post by PaulaM on May 11, 2021 11:55:18 GMT -7
we have no frame of reference from liquid gabapentin to now 300mgs capsules.
- Liquid gabapentin formula: ?mgs gabapentin in one mL of liquid?
- if you no longer have the gabapetin liquid bottle, then don't worry about that information.How many Rimadyl tablets were you given? That tells us (maybe) how many days it was extended for. Are the Rimadyl tabs cut in two for you? Or are the Rimadyl tabs whole (25mgs per whole tab)? Almost NO dog stays on Rimadyl for 6 weeks. Best if you gain knowledge to understand the typical way Rimadyl (anti-inflammatory) used during a disc episode. Knowledge can put you in a good position to play an instrumental role in Maddie's care and treatment as it should be. Excellent reading about use of anti-inflammtories during a disc epidode. --- Learn why Rimadyl is not a pain reliever, how long it could take to rid the body of all painfully inflamed and swollen tissue around the spinal cord. dodgerslist.com/in-the-right-place/dodgerslist.com/2020/04/18/steroids-vs-nsaids/--- "Treating Pain in Your Dog" Includes side effects, safety precautions to take, immediate actions to take if you suspect a side effect www.fda.gov/animal-veterinary/animal-health-literacy/treating-pain-your-dogIt is the resolution of inflammation/swelling that provides the relief from pain. It can take an antiinflammatory (steroid or nonsteriod NSAID) a range of 7 to 30 days before all swelling is gone.
|
|
|
|
Post by Beth & Maddie on May 11, 2021 12:00:39 GMT -7
How many Rimadyl tablets were you given? That tells us (maybe) how many days it was extended for.
Rimadyl tabs cut in two? no, 25 mg chewable that i break in half.
Maddie and one of my other dogs have been taking 12.5 rimadyl daily for about 9 months for arthritis.
I had a large quantity of rimadyl...60+ 25 mg tabs. So they didn't write a prescription. They just said to add one more [Rimadyl] each day to her dose.
|
|
|
|
Post by Romy & Frankie on May 11, 2021 13:14:57 GMT -7
Some dogs do take an anti-inflammatory long term for arthritis. Regular blood work to check the health of the liver and kidneys would be important for long term use.
For IVDD, usually a shorter term prescription would be used and then a stop would be done to see if the swelling which causes the pain has gone away. Discuss with your vet how long Maddie will be on the additional Rimadyl that was prescribed for the IVDD
|
|
|
|
Post by Beth & Maddie on May 21, 2021 14:51:27 GMT -7
Update on Maddie...
Maddie is starting to move her back legs. Her right leg will even hold her up...almost. I use a leash and sling to take her out for potty time. She swings her legs up into a squat to pee. It is kind of funny to watch. She is not using diapers as she has control over the bladder and bowel now. I feel like we are seeing the light at the end of the tunnel. She does have at least 3 more weeks of crate rest but I feel that she is going to recover her back legs...maybe not as good as before but it will be ok.
I am frustrated with the lack of help, guidance etc from my vet. Maddie started at the ER Vet. The next appointment was a follow up with her regular vet. She gave me no guidance on crate rest or even how to handle taking care of a dog in this situation. I already knew about Dodgerslist as they have helped me with 2 previous dogs. I mentioned Dodgerslist and she almost rolled her eyes. I told her about the research and valuable information on this website. She really didn't care and I am now reconsidering changing vets. If i was a newbie to IVVD I would have been completely lost,scared, emotional, etc. Thank you to Dodgerslist for making a difference!! You help save lives and help heal our precious pups. You also help us humans get through the mentally exhausting caretaking part.
I do have one question...
How long do I keep her on Gabapentin? I called the vet today about it. I run of of medication Sunday morning. The clinic has about 8 vets. Mine is out of the office until Monday. No one could answer my question. I'm beyond frustrated with this place. I didn't know if you can suddenly stop Gabbapentin??
Thanks for any and all help!
Have a good weekend!!
Beth and Maddie
|
|
|
|
Post by Romy & Frankie on May 21, 2021 15:08:34 GMT -7
Thank you for the kind words. I am happy to hear how well Maddie is doing.
Not all vets know IVDD. Some are very open to learning more and working with the pet parent but unfortunately some are not.
A few vets prefer tapering the gabapentin but many prefer to just stop the medication. We have not seen adverse outcomes from just stopping so I think you are okay with that.
|
|
PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,544
|
Post by PaulaM on May 21, 2021 16:12:46 GMT -7
Maddie, sorry you are not finding the vet support you need. Maybe time to hire a vet more compatible with your needs as the care giver at home. At graduation on 6/27, start with a wellness exam with a new vet to check out compatibility and maybe other options for arthritis pain treatments. More ideas on hiring an IVDD vet to be on Maddie's health care team: dodgerslist.com/2020/05/10/find-ivdd-vet/please update on the meds she is taking. -- 5/7 your reported Rimadyl 12.5mgs 2x/day. When will Rimadyl stop? Or if already stopped, what date did it stop on? Let us know also about Pepcid AC, too— stops same date Rimadyl stops. -- Is methocarbamol 62.5mgs 2x/day still on board? BACK LEG neuro function. Please, do tell us more about brain involvement along with purposeful back leg movement! 1. YES Deep Pain Sensation: the first neuro function to return. DPS is the critical indicator for nerves to be able to self heal after surgery or with conservative treatment. Trust only the word of a neuro (ACVIM) or ortho (ACVS) surgeon about this very tricky to correctly idenfiy neuro function.
2. YES Tail wagging with joy at seeing you or getting a treat or meal.
3. YES Bladder and bowel control verified with the "sniff and pee" test.
4. _?__Back leg movement to reposition in suite or scratch an ear
then _?__ability to move up into a stand on her own
then _?__ wobbly walking.
5. Being able to walk with more steadiness and properly place the feet.
6. Ability to walk unassisted and perhaps even run. -- During a disc episode it is prudent and very important to want to know if all swelling is really gone. No one wants a dog on meds past the point of achieving the benefit. After the benefit has been achieve all that remains is to be exposed to side effects. -- The only way to know for sure is a test stop of Rimadyl and all meds that blindfold you about pain (methocarbamol and gabapentin). |
|
|
|
Post by Beth & Maddie on Jun 10, 2021 12:06:05 GMT -7
I meant to update sooner. Life got a little chaotic between taking care of Maddie and then my husband had some medical issues and surgery. He is all good now. Maddie is greatly improving!!
Currently Maddie is off all medication. She has been off for several days now.
She is able to walk with a bit of a wobble. I take her out with the leash several times a day. I have a crate that stays outside so she can sit in the shade and watch the birds and smell all the good smells. That is very good for her mental health!
Her back right leg is doing really good, but her left leg is much weaker. Is this typical for each side to recover differently?
As of Saturday she will be at her 6 week point. It is such a relief to see her doing so good. We know that she needs to be restricted for 2 more weeks. We don't want to have her go backwards in her recovery.
I'm so thankful for Dodgerslist! I have gotten all the info I needed from here! Thank you to all the volunteers that make this website possible!!
Beth & Maddie
|
|
|
|
Post by Romy & Frankie on Jun 10, 2021 13:10:44 GMT -7
I am sorry that your husband had to have surgery, but very glad that he is all right now.
Good news that Maddie is improving. It is quite common for one leg to be weaker than the other during recovery. This may resolve itself with time.
Staying the course with crate rest is the absolute best thing you can do for Maddie. The 8 weeks of crate rest is what helps the disc to heal.
|
|
|
|
Post by Beth & Maddie on Jun 29, 2021 13:35:08 GMT -7
Maddie is off crate rest. She walks around the backyard and is so happy for her new found freedom. Her legs are a little weak yet so we do confine her to rooms so that she can't use the stairs yet. I'm hoping her strength comes back quickly.  ** |
|
|
|
Post by Romy & Frankie on Jun 29, 2021 13:50:08 GMT -7
Congratulations on completing crate rest! Once a dog completes crate rest, it is best that they move to regular activities gradually. This allows the dog to build up strength and stamina. The idea is to gradually give more freedom under controlled conditions, like you are doing. We have some information about after crate rest activities, which include a sample schedule: dodgerslist.com/2020/06/15/back-friendly |
|
PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,544
|
Post by PaulaM on Jun 29, 2021 16:17:26 GMT -7
Beth, I'd also like to give congratulations! What an accomplishment to heal the disc and go from not walking 8 weeks ago to now walking! Good job in caring for Maddie. Re-introducing back to family life means doing so under controlled conditions of a leash and harness when outdoors to prevent darting off after a squirrel, and over doing things. Too much too fast, can cause painful muscles making it not clear if a serious disc problem or just temporary muscle soreness. Look to make your home back friendly with ramps instead of impactful-to-the-spine stairs. Block off furniture to prevent jumping up or down. Teach all four paws on the ground. LEARN MORE: dodgerslist.com/2020/07/09/home-protect-ivdd-backs  **  **Beth, we invite you to hop on to our educational bandwagon team. Education about disc disease is our number one mission! We wish we did not have to hear of another dog that was put to sleep because of disc disease nor one denied the correct principles of STRICT rest to help them heal. We would like all of our members to pay forward for the help they have received with their dog by helping us educate!
We depend on you. Here are some ways to help... -- "Share" our FB posts www.facebook.com/Dodgerslist-- When in conversation at the grocery store line or wherever you may meet breeds most prone to IVDD (Dachshunds, Beagles, Poodles, Spaniels, Shih Tzus, Pekingese, and Chihuahuas) give out our free little wallet cards. Hand carry our literature and introduce us to your vet. Ask Linda to send you a free brochure packet for your vet to use with his clients: dodgerslist.com/free-literature-2/ ** |
|
