|
Post by Jeremy & Browney on Nov 20, 2017 5:16:26 GMT -7
Today is the day we stop his pain meds. Fingers crossed. How soon should I expect to see him having pain if he still does?
Post by Jeremy & Browney on Nov 18, 2017 at 7:47am He does go when we take him out some of the time, just not all of the time. His water intake is about the same. He drinks and pees a lot typically anyways because of his furosemide meds and heart issues.
|
|
Marjorie
Moderator~
Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,724
|
Post by Marjorie on Nov 20, 2017 6:21:12 GMT -7
Rimadyl is also being stopped, Jeremy? I believe Rimadyl stays in the system for about 24 hours but the pain meds have a short half life so you may see pain this morning or not for a day or so.
Prayers for a pain-free stopping of meds.
|
|
|
Post by Jeremy & Browney on Nov 20, 2017 6:39:29 GMT -7
Yes, I am stopping all meds related to his back. His last Rimadyl was 6pm last night, and his last pain meds were at 10pm last night. I am super nervous, but very hopeful.
[Moderator's note: please do not modify 17 lbs. Rimadyl as of 11/10: 12.5 mg 2x/day for 10 days, then 11/20 test for pain STOP Tramadol 37.5 mg 3x/day max due to heart STOPPED Methocarbamol 125mg 3x/day STOPPED Gabapentin 100mgs 3x/day STOPPED famotidine 5mgs 1x/day due to heart meds STOPPED Vetmedin 2.5mg in am/1.25mg in pm Furosemide 10mg 2x/day Enalapril 2.5mg 2x/day]
|
|
PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,795
|
Post by PaulaM on Nov 20, 2017 8:15:40 GMT -7
With all of Jeremy's health issues, and the fact that no dog should take a NSAID past the point of its benefit to get swelling resolved, this stop will be beneficial to know if another course is needed or no meds at all are needed.
We've got our fingers crossed that you will NOT see any sign of pain surfacing when he has to move or as the 8 hour mark approaches when the pain meds will be out of his system.
◻︎shivering-trembling ◻︎yelping when picked up or moved ◻︎slow to move ◻︎tight tense tummy ◻︎arched back, ears pinned back ◻︎ restless, can't find a comfortable position ◻︎ slow or reluctant to move much in crate such as shift positions ◻︎ not eating due to painful chewing or in too much overall pain ◻︎ not his normal perky, interested in life self.
|
|
|
Post by Jeremy & Browney on Nov 20, 2017 9:14:38 GMT -7
How much easier would this all be if they could just talk.
|
|
|
Post by Julie & Perry on Nov 20, 2017 14:30:41 GMT -7
Yes, it often feels like you have to be a detective and look for clues!!
It can be frustrating.
You're doing a great job advocating for Browney.
Healing thoughts and prayers.
|
|
|
Post by Jeremy & Browney on Nov 20, 2017 14:33:45 GMT -7
So I think he is doing very well. He is not showing signs of pain today and is getting very antsy. Hes in there messing up his bed today and moving around much more. I keep having to tell him to settle down.
|
|
|
Post by Julie & Perry on Nov 20, 2017 14:42:09 GMT -7
At times I had to give my dog a mild sedative, acepromazine.
I decided it was better to have a slightly sedated dog that can heal.
It's hard once they start to feel better they want back to their normal routine.
|
|
|
Post by Jeremy & Browney on Nov 20, 2017 14:45:20 GMT -7
I can ask the vet about that, but I know they are very cautious with sedatives because of his heart.
|
|
PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,795
|
Post by PaulaM on Nov 20, 2017 16:50:01 GMT -7
Heavy duty Rx sedative may not be a good choice, but perhaps a calmer might. Of course do pass it by your vet the active ingredients in oral calmers mentioned below Using any oral calmer in combination with a Pheromone diffuser seems to work best. It takes several days for these to start working - it isn't immediate but they are a much better option if you can avoid heavy duty sedatives such as Acepromazine, Trazodone, etc. Other product brands may be available in your area or on-line… just shop by the active ingredient(s) on the label and the quantity for best price. Place a DAP pheromone diffuser at floor level where the recovery suite is. Some brands to consider: --Comfort Zone (DAP) wall plug-in diffuser 48ml --Adaptil (DAP) wall plug in diffuser 48ml Use the phermomone diffuser with one oral calmer from below: 1) ANXITANE® S chewable tabs contain 50 mg L-Theanine, an amino acid that acts neurologically to help keep dogs calm, relaxed 2) Composure Soft Chews are colostrum based like calming mother's milk and contain 21 mg of L-Theanine. Consider some of these ideas: -- Many members have found a pet stroller to solve the whining problem because the stroller can be wheeled from room to room as you go about your activities. Pet strollers, however, should only be used when you are directly supervising. More details on strollers: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/strollers.htm-- Put a garment you have been wearing and have not washed in the crate. -- Make the crate or ex-pen more cozy by draping a blanket over part of the top. Play soothing music/nature sounds Relaxation Music for Dogs! Here's the playlist for all 70+ "tunes"
|
|
|
Post by Jeremy & Browney on Nov 20, 2017 19:02:25 GMT -7
Well, we have to go back to meds. I was so hopeful. He wouldn't let my wife pick him up, and started breathing heavy and shaking a little. Then he yelped while I was petting him very lightly. I am going to give him his ✚meds tonight per the schedule and call the vet in the morning.
[Moderator's note: please do not modify 17 lbs. Rimadyl as of 11/10: 12.5 mg 2x/day for 10 days as of 11/20 pm: 12.5mgs 2x/day for 6 days, then 11/26 test for pain stop. ✚Tramadol 37.5 mg 3x/day; max due to heart ✚Methocarbamol 125mg 3x/day ✚Gabapentin 100mgs 3x/day ✚famotidine 5mgs 1x/day; max due to heart meds Vetmedin 2.5mg in am/1.25mg in pm Furosemide 10mg 2x/day Enalapril 2.5mg 2x/day]
|
|
|
Post by Julie & Perry on Nov 20, 2017 19:09:46 GMT -7
Sometimes it takes a couple of trials before they're ready. Hang in there.
|
|
|
Post by Jeremy & Browney on Nov 21, 2017 5:35:18 GMT -7
How long should we go on meds again until we test for pain? Until Friday(11/24), or maybe Sunday (11/26)?
|
|
Marjorie
Moderator~
Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,724
|
Post by Marjorie on Nov 21, 2017 5:42:16 GMT -7
Usually another week of meds are prescribed but with Browney's other medical conditions, the vet may want to try just another few days.
Please don't get discouraged. It can take 7-30 days for the swelling to resolve and until then, all meds are needed. Is his pain completely back under control this morning?
We'll be awaiting word from you after you speak to the vet this morning.
|
|
|
Post by Jeremy & Browney on Nov 21, 2017 12:02:41 GMT -7
Ok, a little update. Browney is back to not in pain today, so the meds are working. I spoke with the vet and she wants to continue all meds until Friday, then she wants me to remove them one by one, 24 hours apart. Tramadol first, then Gabapentin, then Rimadyl. I spoke with her about stopping them together to check for pain, and she agreed, but said she would rather do it one at a time as she feels he may be ok on less meds for a little bit versus none.
|
|
PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,795
|
Post by PaulaM on Nov 21, 2017 13:36:26 GMT -7
Jeremy, sounds like a slight variation of the test-for-pain that should still work to let you know fairly quickly if all meds need to be back on board or not. We'll have our fingers crossed this time after 16 days of Rimadyl, painful swelling will be all resolved.
|
|
|
Post by Jeremy & Browney on Nov 25, 2017 6:04:21 GMT -7
I sure hope it works next time. I appreciate all of the help here, you ladies have surely kept me sane during this mess. So the past few days have been pretty good. No real issues to speak of. Browney is not going potty much outside of his crate, but it seems like he just doesn't get enough notice. He will stand up real quick, and then he pees. I think/am hoping this is a result of the meds, but I guess we will find out soon enough. The vet did originally warn us that he may do this as a result of the meds. Today we will not be giving him Tramadol(11/25), tomorrow we will not give Gabapentin(11/26), and Monday we will not give Rimadyl(11/27).Fingers Crossed
|
|
PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,795
|
Post by PaulaM on Nov 25, 2017 8:44:09 GMT -7
Jeremy, we've got our fingers crossed as well for no pain this weekend nor on Monday with the final proof stop of Rimadyl.
I'm sure the heart meds contribute to having to pee more. The only thing you can do is to try and take him out to potty more often. It is trial and error-- maybe try every 2-3 hours and work your way up to a frequency that keeps him from having to release urine in his crate.
|
|
|
Post by Jeremy & Browney on Nov 25, 2017 10:46:54 GMT -7
Frequency has no effect. We can take him out and we will not pee, then put him back in and literally 2 minutes later he will in the crate. He hates it and trys to shy to the other side of the crate.
|
|
|
Post by Romy & Frankie on Nov 25, 2017 14:29:48 GMT -7
How has Browney been doing without the tramadol today?
Dogs will not pee in the crate unless they can't help it. Since frequency doesn't work it is something else so we will put on our detective hats again. Could it be that he is a bit nervous outside now and cannot relax enough to pee even though he has to go? Then when he is back in the house and more secure he does go. Is it possible that he has trouble starting the urine stream and when he lays down in his crate there is just enough pressure on the bladder to help him go? Do either of these scenarios sound possible to you?
|
|
|
Post by Jeremy & Browney on Nov 25, 2017 15:13:08 GMT -7
I don't think he is nervous as it does not matter if we take him outside, or inside on a pad. With that said we have never really hovered over him during potty time before, so maybe. I am not going to worry about this too much until all the meds are stopped.
|
|
|
Post by Jeremy & Browney on Nov 26, 2017 17:45:41 GMT -7
My wife was able to get him to pee outside twice today. He doesn't seem to be in any pain and is MUCH more active. So far, so good. Fingers crossed.
|
|
PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,795
|
Post by PaulaM on Nov 27, 2017 9:34:36 GMT -7
Jeremy, will be watching for your post today with the stop of Rimadyl today. Hoping to hear no meds at all will be needed from this point on though to graduation day.
|
|
|
Post by Jeremy & Browney on Nov 27, 2017 13:36:09 GMT -7
He is doing well today and is not showing any signs of pain. Funny little story. He has been trying to lift his leg to pee when we take him out, but he can't hold it up there long, so he lifts it, then sets it back down and just pees standing there with both legs on the ground. Today he discovered that he can lift his leg then lean against the block wall. Haha
|
|
|
Post by Jeremy & Browney on Nov 27, 2017 17:00:29 GMT -7
So I just went to take him out to potty and he didn't want me to pick him up, and is back to yelping when I try. This is making me insane. He yelped when I tried to pet him also. But then I left him alone for 5 minutes and came back and he let me pet him no problem. I'm so confused right now.
|
|
Marjorie
Moderator~
Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,724
|
Post by Marjorie on Nov 27, 2017 17:11:16 GMT -7
Wasn't he showing anticipatory pain before, Jeremy? Do you think it could be that? Did you actually pick him up and he yelped or did he yelp when you started to pick him up? Do you see any other sign of pain?
If he is in fact having pain again, then you know you'll need to call the vet ASAP to get him back on all original meds. If that's the case, don't be discouraged. It can take 7-30 days for the swelling to resolve and it sometimes takes numerous attempts to get off the meds.
I'm a bit concerned about the photo of Browney during his potty break. Without a harness and leash, isn't it difficult to limit the steps he takes during potty breaks? Or is the area he's in very small? It's hard to tell from the photo. We recommend using a harness and 6' leash. Stand in one spot and only allow a very few steps. Or make a 6' potty place with push-in-the-ground plastic fencing or an ex-pen to limit steps. If too many steps are taken and the spine moves too much during potty breaks, it's difficult for the damaged disc to heal properly and may even worsen.
|
|
|
Post by Pauliana on Nov 27, 2017 17:12:59 GMT -7
|
|
|
Post by Jeremy & Browney on Nov 27, 2017 17:44:09 GMT -7
To answer the questions above...
1)Yes he was acting this way before, but eventually stopped. He is yelping before I even pick him up. It is when I go into the cage to reach for him.
2)He is not wandering during potty time. 1 or 2 steps max.
3)Yes I know how to pick him up and have watched more the vids etc.
Now for the vet update. I have been dealing with 2 vets on this. The vet that originally saw him is Dr. Polishuk. The vet that I have since spoken to, when she is not available, it Dr. McClurg.
Dr. Polishuk was the one that had him on super low dosages of everything to start and told us he just needed to rest for 5 days. She said we should confine him, but he could sleep in the bed with us as long as he was still. When I called her to increase his meds originally she was very hesitant and became upset when I questioned her and explained the knowledge I had gained. She was the one that told me to look up IVDD, so it was exactly what she requested. She told me the first Monday that she had other patients to see and couldn't sit on the phone with me anymore.
Dr. McClurg was the one I spoke with when I called back again later to increase his Tramadol and change the Gabapentin to 3 times a day vs the 2 times that Dr. Polishuk prescribed. She was also the Dr. I spoke with when I called last Monday when the pain returned after we stopped the meds on Sunday. She recommended giving the meds until Friday then stop each one separately a day apart.
When I called today Dr. Polishuk was the Dr. there. I explained to her what had happened and that I stopped the Tramadol Friday, the Gabapentin Saturday, and the Rimadyl on Sunday. She immediately told me that was wrong and that I should be stopping them more like 7 days apart, and not one day. I told her that contradicted what I have read and also what the other Dr. had told me. She got offended by that and went on a long spiel about how she has others to help and cant sit around researching things all day. She then told me she would have to have another one of the D's call me as we obviously have trouble communicating. I tried to explain to her that I was just trying to do what is best for my dog and didn't want to keep him on these meds any longer than I absolutely had to. She said they aren't really harmful. She then continued talking over me and eventually hung up on me. I was never rude, or offensive so I'm not really sure what her issue is, but now I'm totally lost.
My wife just got home and he lets her pick him up no problem, so maybe I am over thinking this. I am real bad at feelings. I'm more of an absolute kind of person so this is all super difficult. I appreciate all of the help here, you ladies are keeping me sane.
|
|
|
Post by Julie & Perry on Nov 27, 2017 19:15:03 GMT -7
Wow, I would definitely "fire" the one doctor. She's telling you that she isn't comfortable dealing with IVDD.
Any doctor that treats you that way isn't one that you need.
My vet always listens to me and has no problem spending time on the phone when I need help.
Healing thoughts and prayers for Browney.
|
|
|
Post by Jeremy & Browney on Nov 27, 2017 20:33:07 GMT -7
Just got a voice mail from another vet at their office. He suggested keeping Browney on the Gabapentin and Rimadyl. Then after a few days reduce the Gabapentin to twice daily, then after a couple days going to once daily. Then after a couple more days reduce the Rimadyl to half the current doseage and see how that does.
If I understand all of this correctly, this contradicts the advice here or stopping the meds simultaneously to check for pain.
I am going to sleep on all of this and rethink it tomorrow. He is not showing any of the signs of pain right now.
|
|