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Post by James & Brie on May 25, 2017 15:33:09 GMT -7
I have been expressing Brie every 2 hrs. I just feel that I am not finishing the job and what I am getting is only because her bladder is full. Try as I may I still cannot feel her bladder, although I seem to get quite a bit of urine enitionaly. So I am going for a hands on at the ER tonight and have an app. with our vet in the morning. I have seen all the vids., I also have a demo I was given on how to express with Brie on her side, by the Hosp. where Brie had surgery. They should know Brie doesn't play that game. She is way to anxious to be laid on her side, much less stay there. Brie fights the whole process of expressing and now growls once in a while when I take her out of the crate for expressing. I wish I could hear what she's trying to tell me. I can only imagine, bless her heart. I can't imagine how things would work out if I was still working. So, I went to talk with the PT (rehab.) yesterday, prescribed by the Hosp., they are right next door to them. We talked about types of rehab. & a cart. I know the price is high, but I purchased a cart through them because they are able to get the correct measurements and fit it to Brie in a way that will support her properly. Est. $400 - $500. For rehab they are talking about Intensive Rehabilitation Therapy, so they can get her to be able to "spinal walk." They recommend: Tens, Hydrotherapy, 2-4 times weekly. Integrative Med. Pckg. (10 Txs) Est.:$875.00. I feel that they have dinged me already, is this another ding I wonder?
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Post by Romy & Frankie on May 25, 2017 16:28:57 GMT -7
Actually, it sounds like you are getting better with your expressing. It is the kind of thing that takes a lot of practice. I struggled to learn it, many, many of us struggled. Eventually we learned and you will also. In my opinion, it is way too early to give up on her walking. It took my Frankie several months to relearn how to walk. He also came out of surgery without DPS. I am not sure my surgeon knows that Frankie regained his ability to walk because at the one month checkup he was as paralyzed as he was before the surgery. The surgery did get rid of his terrible pain. I think that many surgeons do not do long term follow-up and may be unaware that dogs have regained function in months or sometimes even years. That may account for the discouraging prognosis that we see quite regularly. Not even the experts know how much healing will take place. My Frankie had aqua therapy after his crate rest was over. He walked on an underwater treadmill. He went twice a week at first and then once a week. This was very, very helpful for him. I do not think he would have recovered nearly as fast without it. Here is a link to aqua therapy that can be done at home: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/watertherapy.htmThis is what walking on an underwater treadmill looks like. These therapies are for when crate rest is over.
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Post by James & Brie on May 25, 2017 16:29:55 GMT -7
What about the rehab? Is that too much? Went to the ER again tonight for a hand's on. I had expressed Brie 2 hour's earlier. This time it wasn't a tech, it was a vet, so I was charged, hey 2 for 1 I can't complain. So when she called me in the room she started attempting to express Brie and barely got anything. She said her bladder is hard to find and right now it's small. I then showed her how I was shown previously by the tech. Since I have to hold her at the same time to support her spine, I use my left hand only and we were both surprised when I got a slow stream started and Brie actually got emptied with that. The Vet said thanks for bringing Brie by to teach me expressing. We both got a laugh and now I feel a little better. Oh yeah, Brie's weight is 13lbs.-7oz's. They also listened to what I had to say about ✚ Pepcid AC (Famotidine), after reading about it in the links Paula sent me. Her dose is 3 mg every 12 hrs. or 5 mg every 24 hrs. In the discharge instructions I received: You are expressing Brie's bladder very well! Her urine looks normal. I don't know what this means but while standing their with Brie for a min., I was rubbing Brie's hind leg and it stretched out for a second. I felt it and saw it. ? I might make it thru another night. That's me, class clown. Remember that kid you saw sitting in the hall next to a door. Yep! Me! But, all kidding aside I feel somewhat more confident. Never over confident in expressing Brie. Brie is yapping a little right now and growling, yet not in an aggressive manner. She ate and took her pills an hour ago, so I only wish I could tell what she wants. [13.7 lbs Prednisone 5mg tab as of 5/23: 2.5mgs 2x/day for 14 days, then taper Trazodone 12.5 mgs 2x/day Gabapentin 100mg 2-3 x/day ✚Pepcid AC as of 5/23: 3mgs 2xday ]
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PaulaM
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Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
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Post by PaulaM on May 25, 2017 16:35:26 GMT -7
jim, can you call and get the cart cancelled? STOP the order on the CART. It is best to wait the full week of crate rest before buying a cart. She may never need one. It is too early to be buying a cart. After the 6 weeks of surgeon directed crate rest and the PT he wants, then you will have a better idea the path of nerve healing. Whether precious money is better spent on a cart or PT such as underwater treadmill for a dog who is showing some hint of leg movement. Money that is precious must be carefully spent. Always think, research before committing to large expenses. No money decision needs to be made without research. Brie might possibly be regaining some degree of bladder control as after surgery surgeon reported some leg movement. It would be a good idea periodically, say every other day or so to give the "sniff and Pee test" SNIFF AND PEE TESTThe only way for us humans to know if there is bladder control is with the sniff and pee test. Carry outdoors, set on an old pee spot to sniff it. See if urine is then released. Make sure the sling or your hands are not on the tummy area as that can press on the bladder. If urine comes out after sniffing, bladder control is returning. You should do a quick express check to verify there is full voiding until you are certain it is consistently happening. Let us know what you observe. When bladder control starts to return, dogs will not like you expressing them. Let us know what you observe. NEURO STATUS? Tell us if the surgeon reported to there was deep pain sensation? Tell us if you have specifically seen Brie's tail happily wag if you do some happy talk to her. Tell us if you have observed any movement of the back leg. Such as when she tried to change sides, turn around in the suite. Is any any observation of the back legs moving at all? Nerves heal typically in the reverse order of the damage to the spinal cord: 1. Deep Pain Sensation (Only correctly identified by a specialist.) 2. Tail wagging with joy at seeing you or getting a treat or meal. 3. Bladder and bowel control verified with the "sniff and pee" test. 4. Leg Movement, and then ability to move up into a standing position, and then wobbly walking. 5. Being able to walk with more steadiness and properly place the feet. 6. Ability to walk unassisted and perhaps even run. More info: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingnerves.htm[13.7 lbs Prednisone 5mg tab: 2.5mgs 2x/day for 14 days, then taper Trazodone 12.5 mgs 2x/day Gabapentin 100mg 2-3 x/day ✚Pepcid AC as of 5/23: 3mgs 2xday ]
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Post by James & Brie on May 25, 2017 23:37:39 GMT -7
I put your answers above.
I was reading in the conservative forum and came across sqweeks. I learned that I still have a way's to go with the expressing. It was mentioned that leaking in the bed or on you is a sign that your dog was not thoroughly expressed. That just happened to me [leaking] carrying her back to her crate. I'll get this down yet. Then I read something Marjorie wrote that stopped me in my tracks. With this disease and it's degenerating affects it has on the vertebrae, all a dog has to do is turn to lick a paw and that could cause a disc to herniate. How does one prevent this. Do you have to throw egg shells out in front of your dog for the remainder of his, her life. Again, my Brie is trying to communicate to me. Sitting up, looking directly at me and letting out small yaps, this time she's panting, she took her pain pill. So I go over to pet her and she just put's her head back and kind of smiles. She looks so cute when she does that because her ears flop back. Like she's got her head hanging out of a moving vehicle. She has water just a way's in front of her, 8"-10". But I go and put some fresher water in a bowl and hold it for her and she drinks. I'm glad I can figure out what she want's (sometimes), because you want to provide and be there for them. It's not her fault she was given this horrific disease.
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Post by Julie & Perry on May 26, 2017 2:13:40 GMT -7
James, it takes time to find a balance of letting them be a dog and watching out for IVDD. Some things are never again, like stairs and jumping. Others, like rolling on their back or chasing squirrels is part of living. As for preventing future episodes keeping your dog at a healthy weight and getting exercise to keep core muscles strong are helpful. Some dogs only have one episode. Others can have multiple episodes. What helps with the fear is knowledge. Learn what the signs of an episode are and what to do. Knowledge is power! My Nala has had IVDD for 9 years and still has a good life. Brie will too. Hang in there. You're doing an awesome job taking care of her. Healing thoughts and prayers for you.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,611
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Post by PaulaM on May 26, 2017 8:30:56 GMT -7
James the panting can be a sign of pain or caused by Prednisone or can be anxious. As long as you are not seeing another confirming sign of pain, then you might try a fan near but not pointed at Brie. A slight increase of air circulation may help if it is caused by pred. It would be best to post updates/corrections in a new post. It is more time consuming for us to have to go back and read a post we have already marked for clues. And we might miss the new information. IVDD is a disease of prematurely aging discs. I like how Julie explained living with an IVDD dog. Whole heartedly agree that knowledge IS the power to fight the IVDD enemy and win! I believe your mind will be eased in learning to live with IVDD by this excellent essay... worth your time to read. It is located on the "Graduates" board but here is the direct link to "Living with the Fear of IVDD" : dodgerslist.boards.net/thread/410/living-fear-ivddNEURO STATUS? Can you bring us up to date on what is happening with her back legs. ~ Tell us if the surgeon reported there was deep pain sensation? ~ Tell us if you have specifically seen Brie's tail happily wag if you do some happy talk to her. ~ Tell us if you have observed any movement of the back leg. Such as when she tries to change sides, turn around in the suite. Is there any observation of the back legs moving at all?
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Post by James & Brie on May 26, 2017 17:13:31 GMT -7
First off, I'm sorry about the update. I've put a single sentence on a post earlier and it seem's to get included with a later post. So when I had a post with just a few word's on it and no post's after it and the questions were asked of me in earlier posts. I just assumed. My bad! I'm still learning about these forums. I believe I mentioned the surgeon telling me this in one of my first posts, about her having movement in her left hind leg. Maybe they were trying to keep me upbeat at the time. What I do know is they never mentioned it again. Only, "she's not getting better". My vet, and then the surgeon, both reported DPS as I was right there both times they checked with little pliers. But then after surgery they said something about movement in her left hind leg and later attributed that and the other tests, to something else. It was all confusing to me as I saw her pull away, with them saying good. So now all I can say is DPS was not reported. I haven't seen the tail wag, but I have seen it sticking out a couple of times. I have also felt her left hind leg stiffen a bit, on 2 occasion's. The sniff and pee will be difficult. The sniff & pee is difficult because I live in a mobile home park and I have no lawn. We would walk Brie and she would pee in the street. I can try taking her to the clubhouse where they do have a little lawn. But we have nothing but small rocks all around us and Brie always did her duty in the street. Suggestions.
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Post by Julie & Perry on May 26, 2017 17:25:05 GMT -7
It can take months or longer to see progress. Nerves heal very slowly. Brie's barely had time to recover from her surgical swelling. Often doctors seem very pessimistic. But healing can and does happen. My Nala has been paralyzed several times and recovered. Other dogs graduate to a "chariot." But it's still very early. Try to focus on helping Brie be comfortable and giving her little body lots of time to heal. Being positive and upbeat will tell her she's getting better. You're doing such a great job caring for her. One day at a time. Healing wishes.
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Post by James & Brie on May 26, 2017 19:27:34 GMT -7
Oops, I added something I wanted to be with that post. Did I goof up again?
I was looking through Brie's discharge papers again and noticed something I didn't before. I have been going by the label on her bottles & with her Trazodone it say's on the label 1/2 tablet every 12hrs., on the discharge papers it says 1 tablet every 12 hrs. I have phoned them but since Brie's discharge I have a hard time getting them to call back. I also wanted to know if I could give Brie anything between meals. I have her on Royal Canin/wet . They said about a third of a can twice a day. That doesn't seem like much. Still worried!
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Post by Pauliana on May 26, 2017 22:07:52 GMT -7
Hi James, For now I would go by the label on the Trazadone bottle. Tomorrow call them again to insist on the correct dosage.. For all that you have paid them for the surgery and her long time in the hospital, they owe you the correct information in a quick manner..You,my friend, are the Captain of Brie's health care team. You paid them and that makes you their boss! The earlier post you made about IVDD in the long term. Tyler had his surgery in 2013 when he woke up paralyzed. He recovered walking but has had several milder episodes.. He has never been paralyzed again.. He has a great life, is spoiled rotten...and we go for nice walks with the use of his Pet Gear stroller.. He rides up and walks back. IVDD is not easy sometimes but we have learned to cope and make the best of it.. What does Royal Canin recommend as to the amount to feed Brie? It should say on the can. Tyler sends his best regards to Brie and to you...
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Post by James & Brie on May 26, 2017 22:16:19 GMT -7
I read the story. Thank You! And I'm sorry for all she went through and is still going through. My parents always had dog's, all lived to be 14 or older, missy, muffin, gidget, princess, tuffy, gypsy, moose, dolly, reggie, casey, molly, I might have missed one or two. I never knew what they , my parent's, went through. It must have really been hard on my Dad, he buried them all. I wish I could hug him or my Mom right now and let them know, "I'm sorry I didn't know." But I can't because they're gone now. And that's why "It's just a dog" is spoken only by people who never owned a dog. Because they don't know. Sure all of those dog's my parent's enjoyed for years and years, and were always at the home where I sometimes lived at myself, I loved them. But not in the way my parent's did. I never felt what they felt. Never spent time with them like my parents did, every day, all day. And so I never knew. And then one day, out of the blue, I looked at my wife and said, let's go to the dog pound and check out some dog's. It was there, at the ripe age of 65 that I fell head over heel's for a dog who would become known as BRIE. What a wonderful addition to our family Brie became, and still is very much so. And now, I too know. Brie is my first dog and I will always love her and this is my first rodeo. So I will be there for her, and will try to protect her, but I am a big softy and until my heart tell's me otherwise, I will live with the fear. Just don't tell her that.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
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Post by PaulaM on May 27, 2017 10:03:34 GMT -7
James, for the sniff and pee test you would take Brie to one of her old pee spots (whether on the street or grass) The idea is sniffing old urine helps her to know that is where to pee if she has self repaired nerves enough to have the ability to control her bladder.
You can save a small piece of a used pee pad with urine on it in a zip lock bag. Place the piece on your rocks, the pavement or grass for her to sniff during the test.
If Trazadone at the dose your are currently giving calms her then that is the right dose. You report giving Trazodone 25mg tab: 12.5 mgs 2x/day.
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Post by James & Brie on May 28, 2017 2:50:31 GMT -7
Ok, this is really bothering me so I have to talk about it. I feel odd complaining, because the Vet. Hosp. well, they did there job. And they were paid to do their job. Now just tell me if I'm wrong or better yet tell me if they were right.
Brie had surgery on Thursday May 11. Starting around Tuesday May 16 we are being told Brie isn't getting better, I ask is she sick, and they say no we just haven't seen any movement in her hind legs. By now we should get some kind of reaction, but we're not. Then she goes on to say brie may not gain any function again in her hind legs. This being my first time experiencing any of this I just went along saying Ok, yet keeping in the back of my mind thru reading the Dodgerlist material that it's too early to tell. So now I have this to dwell on. I'm getting told by them that they want to keep her a little longer and I'm reading in the forum that there is no reason that she shouldn't come home. So Friday night roll's along and I get a fairly late, 9:30p.m., phone call from them, saying they want to do another MRI to check and see if Brie has another disc rupture or maybe they didn't get all of the last one. In other words, now that they have put doubt in my mind we'll never know if we don't check and then what. So the vet. tech. said to take my time and call her back. So I got on the forums and mentioned it. Of course I cannot afford another surgery, so why do this, and that was the opinion of some on the forum. But now I had to know. So I called them back and started talking price, she said, I know it's a lot, I said yeah. Then she said yes 1520 for the MRI, I said and the anesthesia, and then she jumped in with, then we'll know. I said ok let's do it. Thank God nothing was found. But wouldn't you think they could have mentioned while we were going over the price, couldn't she have said something like, "Oh and let's not forget MRI After-hours: $295.00 and Anes. +Late emergency $370.00." I complained to her when I saw her, I said, that's $665.00 that wasn't mentioned. I said why couldn't that have been done on the following Monday. Whereas she said no, we didn't want to risk her being hurt anymore if their was pressure on her spinal cord. I didn't have my wit's about me to ask, well then why did you wait till Friday night to ask me when you had all week. Opinions please! And don't call me a cad.
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Post by Ann Brittain on May 28, 2017 8:47:45 GMT -7
Hi James, I'm sorry you're going though such an ordeal with Brie. It seems like you're getting confusing information from your vet. When you're given an estimate for care it should include all services required and even extra, unforeseen, costs that could occur during the procedure.
When our Buster had surgery over five years ago, we were told his chances of walking again were very low. He stayed at the hospital for 6 days after surgery. During that time, they were unable to get a deep pain response from him. The day we brought him home the surgeon suggested we get him a "wheel chair" and accept we had a paralyzed dog.
We were very shocked by this news, but didn't just "accept" it. We carefully followed the crate rest recommendations and started doing physical therapy exercises on vet approval. Buster had cold laser and acupuncture treatments and, when approved, we began swim therapy at home.
Buster didn't get the miracle we prayed for, but he did begin to walk and even run again. His right side is weaker than his left, so he isn't at 100 percent of his former ability. We truly believe it was his determination to get well that pulled him through it. Brie may surprise you with her own strength and stubborn will to resume a normal life.
Not being a vet, I don't understand how they could suspect another disc herniation when the dog is already down. But there must be some indication of additional damage. Others may post more educated opinions than mine.
Recovering from surgery is a long process, but with patience and love, you can help Brie recover. The people here on Dodgerslist will be there to help you through it. We've all been there and know how devastating it is to have a IVDD dog. Hopefully Brie will get to come home soon. You'll feel better when she's with you and you're able to have more control over her recovery.
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Post by Pauliana on May 28, 2017 9:21:32 GMT -7
Oh James, you are a Saint with heart of gold in my book! You were right to complain. They should have told you the total charges and I agree they shouldn't have waited until Friday to discuss a second MRI with you. I don't think they should have suggested it at all..
In my opinion having dealt with Tyler when he was paralyzed and in pain..We were lucky, his Vet teaching hospital had a realistic view of how recovery happens..
A second MRI would be called for if Brie was in pain and showing signs that they didn't get all pressure away from her spine.. She wasn't showing those signs from what you have said. In fact that Friday morning they called and told you she was eating and didn't seem to be in pain, from what I remember.
They weren't taking into consideration that surgical swelling lasts for 2 weeks and after that you can better see the direction of healing.. I think the problem is Surgeons see the dogs until they go home and often times a local Vet will take over... They don't see what we see here, how the recoveries come over time..
By the way Tyler's surgeon didn't recommend a pricey rehab. She showed us the exercises we could do for him at home.. He had a great recovery. He runs like the wind now.. He has had several milder episodes but has never been paralyzed again..
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,611
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Post by PaulaM on May 28, 2017 9:52:22 GMT -7
Jim, I can see how frustrated you are over the money and how things were handled.
it is just reality that talking price of medical services is angst. I've found my own doctors, my vet do not like to talk money maybe their hearts are caught between love of healing/medicine and the the world of business. I think sometimes they don’t have at the top of their head how much the things they recommend cost. Everywhere else in life the prices are visible... why medical services are hidden I don't know why.... and I do not accept it, I go against the grain!
Another reality is, it is hard to think when the brain is heavily invested in emotions for our loved ones. I know my own brain kinda goes to mush at those times. It is hard to think of the right questions to ask. It is hard to comprehend new terms and make sense of concepts presented.
I've learned the hard way that the onus is on ME to be up front, forthright about my budget. Press on to find out the price...will there be anything unexpected in additional dollars? I need to not feel pressured to make any decisions on the spot unless we are dealing with an immediate life threatening situation. After doing some research, I can always get back to them with a "yes."
A vet teaching college can have added layers. The student vets are not running a business where they are in the habit of knowing what things cost. The instructor is more concentrated on teaching vs. expense.
My opinion is not yet being fully educated about IVDD, you were not able to weigh the facts about the necessity of an additional MRI . Surgical swelling can take 2 weeks to subside to see the direction of nerve healing. You indicated surgery would not be an option. For Brie it would be conservative treatment had the same or another disc been the problem..hence it doesn’t matter to know with an expensive MRI..all discs are given limited moment with crate rest. Heck, even us educated don't always have a clear mind in the thick of things-- thus the need to research, time to gather info to make decisions. Time to analyze your own mind: thoughts you will be deemed irresponsible if saying “no” to treatments beyond ability to pay. Feeling quilt over questioning costs for your loved one? Balancing the care you want with the amount of money you have to spend takes thoughtful consideration. These decisions are hard for all of us.
Also my opinion is the vet teaching hospital needs to prepare their vets on how to present all treatment options with the pros and cons PLUS what each will cost as part of the course curriculum. Money talk is emotional but an essential part of pinpointing the treatment that is in budget. Money IS the elephant in the room. It deserves a spot in the curriculum. Skills in money talk are not innate, it takes training to be a vet confident and helpful to his clients in an essential part of veterinary practice.
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Post by James & Brie on May 28, 2017 19:51:10 GMT -7
Wow! Thank You Ann, Pauliana, and Paula! I received 3 great responses. I appreciate your time you have given me on this forum. Their is a lot I can take from all 3 of these post's. Knowledge is something that could have helped me a lot with this whole process and hind sight is what it is, should have, could have, would have. But neither, in this case, can stand up to the experience associated with this forum. Thanks again.
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Post by James & Brie on Jun 1, 2017 1:08:15 GMT -7
Post by James & Brie 6 hours ago Still having some problems expressing Brie's bladder. It seems like I get quite a bit of urine from her, yet I've wanted to make sure she's thoroughly clean. So a couple of times I've lain her on her side, and when I do this, I've been able to express her and it's a good amount. That's right after expressing her on her feet. And the ugly head of concern rises once more. Obviously, I haven't gotten this down yet, (expressing). However, due to the anxiety Brie possesses already it's not an easy task getting her on her side and then keeping her there. That's too bad because that position gives me the best chance of fully expressing her. On my own I was able to get her on her side and clean her good, but couldn't use both hands and in order to express her totally I need one hand under her also. I have ordered the bionic arm & hand that attaches to my upper torso, but it won't ship until august. In the meantime is there a way in which I can get Brie to go along with laying her on her side? She really fights this approach and the last thing I want is to have her trying to twist out of my hands. Not Good. Thank You! P.S. I'm trying to keep a smidge of humor in my life, thus the bionic stuff.
------------ Paula- I have tried the sniff and pee a couple of times without any response, other than sniff. I will continue to keep trying, anticipating that surprise. Pauliana I read the directions on the Royal Canin can. They read: Use only as directed by your vet. I have asked 4 different vets. and have received 4, although slightly, different responses. Guess I'll continue with what I'm now feeding her. 8:30am 1/3 of a can, maybe a little more. 1/8 at 2:30pm and 1/3 of a can at 8:00pm to 8:30pm. Having to hide the dog food lately. Very frustrating. Pills have been hidden since day 1. Timing hasn't been good to us. But Brie's looking very much like her old self, alert and ready to go, lately and together we'll all, (Helga, Brie, & Jim), get thru this. Thanks for all your help.
A couple of quick questions. I know these are probably questions everyone knows the answers to, everyone but me. What's the diff. between an upload & a download? And what's the diff. between a thread and a post? I'm thinking an upload is something I'm putting out there and download is something I'm retrieving that someone else put out there. Thread & Post? Maybe a thread relates to a web site you own? This hit me when I was logging out and saw the categories (threads & posts). Sorry if I got off the subject.
Pauliana- Just read Katie and Hera's story. Thinking about it right now, after typing her name down. Kinda looked like Katie Perry. Naw! A sad story. But what touched me was the poem you posted on page 3. I was rubbing my eyes a lot today, thinking I was getting allergies or maybe a case of dry eye. Thanks to you and that poem you posted, dry eye is no longer an issue.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,611
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Post by PaulaM on Jun 1, 2017 6:27:04 GMT -7
James, a sense of humor, is a wonderful asset to have! So just in case the bionic arm does is out of stock, here is why you may be getting more urine when lying down after expresssing on her feet. It may be time. When I express, I kinda wait maybe 15 secs when I think i've gotten it all. Then give it one last try. Time may give the bladder time to reform and if there is still urine in it, a chance for me to get it expressed out. I agree, best to not stress Brie out when she doesn't like lying down to be expressed. Periodically, every couple of days, continue to give that sniff and pee test. Brie will not be able to pass it until her nerves have self repaired enough. It is the prednisone that causes increased appetite. Offer her lo-cal treats such as piece of apple, carrot or frozen green beans. Another option is to freeze one her meals inside of a Kong. That way Brie will have a job to do in getting her dinner or breakfast and it will take her longer to lick it all out. A server is a computer that is networked so many can share it files. Dodgerslist buys server space in order to house our website, this Forum and our photo gallery just as an example. Upload means to send a file to a server from your computer Download means to take a file from a server to your computer A thread contains all the posts on a topic. Here on the Forum each dog has their own thread where all the posts for that dog are under the dog's subject line. Brie's subject is: James' Brie 5/11 Surgery 6wks — spaniel/russell mix
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Post by Pauliana on Jun 1, 2017 22:37:39 GMT -7
I am glad to read that you, Helga and Brie are getting through this day by day. Not easy with all you have on your plate by any means, but love can get one through the hardest of days. Glad Brie is alert and back to her perky self. Thanks for updating us on how things are going. The three of you have been much in my thoughts and prayers! The Norse rainbow bridge poem touched my heart,I found it years ago and saved it, glad it touched your heart and cured your dry eyes..
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Post by Nadya & Willow on Jun 2, 2017 6:37:37 GMT -7
Hi James, my name is Nadya. So sorry to hear about Brie, it sounds like you had quite the ordeal with your surgeon, I am sorry they don't respond to you quickly. My dog Willow had surgery on 5/29, I am seeing some good signs and hoping for a good recovery.
I highly suggest you try to continue with the sniff and pee test. I had a very hard time expressing the bladder because Willow was fighting me. I took her outside to a patch where she usually urinated and she peed on her own! Now Willow had less deficit than Brie but I would try to get Brie out more. I was told that it gets more difficult to express as their bladder function starts to return so maybe it will be back for you soon! My dog only urinated outside so unless I took her out she wouldn't pee so going outside 2-3 times per day gave her the chance to try to pee on her own. I read that you don't have grass by you. How about you find a spot that looks comfortable by your home, take the bowl with her urine that you expressed and put it there so that she can later sniff there and maybe be stimulated to go? You may have to do this in the middle of the night so your neighbours don't think you're a loony!
As for lying on her side, I have found doing a light massage on the front legs relaxed her enough to get her to lie down. My surgeon gave her passive range of motion exercises which require her lying sideways and I found that if I massage her first she is relaxed enough to let me do them. I saw a video online that stressed the importance of massaging not just the back legs but also the front since the front legs will be sore from pulling the rest of the body. I use light touch with circular motions with my fingers and it really seems to calm her down. As long as you don't touch the incision area I'm sure your dog will love the extra attention!
Good luck and I wish Brie a full recovery. We are all in this together, stay strong!
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Post by James & Brie on Jun 4, 2017 1:16:46 GMT -7
I'm reading some good stuff again. Thanks for answering my off the topic questions Paula. Tonight I'm going to put some of Brie's food into her kong and let it sit in the freezer overnight. Hopefully it will give her something to do, plus make her mealtime last a bit longer. Pauliana, day to day, and they go by so slow. It won't be two weeks until June 6. I'm glad you saved that poem. I had to stop and collect myself about 3 times when I read it to my Wife. Nadya, I'm sorry for Willow and you. What a terrible disease, this IVDD. That's great Willow can pee on her own so soon. I put a training pad into the bowl we use when expressing Brie. We use that when taking her outside for a sniff & pee test. Still waiting to be surprised. Unfortunately for Brie and I it seems that she may have a UTI. In reading Katie and Hera's "thread", (thank's Paula), there was mention of Hera having an UTI, causing her urine to have a foul smell. Right now that's where I'm at with Brie and it [urine smell] seems to worsen daily, the smell that is. I want to jump on this as quickly as possible, why do these things always seem to become a problem on a weekend. I guess this is an obvious sign that I'm still not expressing Brie properly. Any help in this area would be greatly appreciated. Another thing I read in Katie and Hera's thread was the post referring to the Green Tea Decaf. I use that with the pampers sensitive wipes, every time I express Brie. It made sense, is this something I should continue? Try as I may, Brie has tried to nip at me a couple of times, when lifting her from her crate. I try hard to make her little life as comfy and stress free as possible, yet in trying to get a good grip on her as to keep her in as level and as horizontal a position I can hold her at she still panic's, and will try to hunker down in a corner of her crate squirming when I try to get a good hold on her. She seems, since we first got her, to feel safer and more secure with women. But with things the way they are, and getting worse. The idea of one getting involved, unfortunately is not an option. Maybe if I wear a wig?
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Post by Nadya & Willow on Jun 4, 2017 4:33:46 GMT -7
James, it sounds like Brie is in pain. It may be that she needs to increase her pain meds or UTI is also painful. If you live close enough to a 24 hr vet I would call and ask them if you can get a urine sample cup, take it home with you, get a sample when you express, and bring it back for testing (so you don't have to drag her over to the vet). But it's important to keep the pain down so talk to the vet to increase the pain meds if possible, even if it's just until the antibiotics kick in (if she does have a UTI).
My vet suggested I buy a special harness that clips around the chest and the back legs so that I can easily lift Willow up by the harness and save my back, and helps when I take her outside to pee. Maybe something like that can help both of you when you need to lift her? Good luck!
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Marjorie
Moderator~
Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,724
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Post by Marjorie on Jun 4, 2017 5:26:03 GMT -7
Nadya is absolutely right that a UTI can be very painful and can make a dog feel completely miserable. A urine sample to a vet ASAP is necessary to get an antibiotic on board. What type of recovery suite are you using for Brie? A top-opening crate or an ex-pen that you are lifting her out of? When my Jeremy had his surgery, I had a front opening wire crate and I carefully pulled him out of it with the top sheet so I could get a good hold underneath him to lift him. Or, if you do have a top-opening recovery suite, try placing a pee pad or small pan under her, help her to get to her feet while supporting the hind end, and express her in the recovery suite. Hopefully, once she's feeling better, it will be easier to lift her. Here's the proper way to lift and carry an IVDD dog: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/liftcarry.jpgYes, continue using the decaf green tea to clean up any urine from Brie's legs and belly. It will neutralize the acidity of the urine to help prevent urine scald. You don't need to use it every time unless she gets urine on her fur or skin. Is she staying dry in between expressing her? Are you finding wet bedding or does she leak when picked up? If she's staying dry, then you're doing a great job. If not, don't despair - it takes some practice to get expressing right. Can you feel the bladder when you express and feel it getting smaller and smaller until your fingers feel like they're almost touching? It took me quite awhile to learn how to express and I realized that Jeremy's bladder was slipping away from me as it got smaller so I wasn't completely emptying it. It can move way back towards the pelvic area. You need to feel around until you find it again and keep expressing until there's just a dribble. Sometimes it helps to wait about 10-20 seconds after you express before trying again to allow the bladder to regain shape. Stay strong and stay positive. Brie has a good, loving caretaker who I know will do all he can to see her through her recovery. Blessings to you.
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Post by James & Brie on Jun 5, 2017 23:41:47 GMT -7
Well, yesterday,(Sunday), I went and picked up a couple of specimen vials for Brie's urine. This morning I took one of the vials I filled the night before, I mean she filled, with me to the vet's. They rejected it straight away, saying it wouldn't be sterile and they do the collecting themselves. So, not having Brie with me I made an appointment to bring her in a couple of hrs. later. That was good because I needed to refill her Gabapentin. When we went back to the Vet's. they took Brie back to one of their secret room's in the back, the room's that are off limits to the public it seems. They expressed Brie and said her bladder was in better shape than the last time she was brought in. She, the Vet., also said they didn't collect a urine sample. Electing instead to just administer a normal type antibiotic and for me to update them on her condition periodically. I am to give Brie 1 & 1/2 tablets of ✚Clavamox, (62.5 MG), by mouth twice daily w/food. 30 Tablets overall. The Vet. also mentioned that Brie was a lot easier to work with compared with her last visit. So all was good at the Vet's. Not so good at home. It is getting harder to deal with Brie now. She is in total resist mode unless food is involved. So much so that I had to get a towel and put it over her head to get her out of her crate and today was the first time she growled at me while expressing her. She was serious with her biting, even trying to bite my Wife. That's really a first. She is lying in her crate at this minute, growling. And no one is close to her. Could this behavior be caused by the Clavamox or should I maybe give her 3 Gabapentins a day. On the bottle label it says 2 or 3 times daily as needed. I have given her 3 only twice before. My wife snores in her sleep and right now she's asleep on the couch near Brie's crate. Could noises be irritating her? I'm picking her up properly and trying not to let her dictate the terms, but she's gaining aggressive confidence. I don't want to muzzle her. Nor do I want to have to purchase Falconer Gloves. Any ideas? [13.7 lbs Prednisone 5mg tab as of 5/23: 2.5mgs 2x/day for 14 days, then taper as of 6/6: 2.5 mgs 1x/day for 5 days as of 6/11: 2.5 mgs every other day for 5 doses. Trazodone 12.5 mgs 2x/day Gabapentin 100mg 2-3 x/day Pepcid AC 3mgs 2xday
✚Clavamox started 6/6: 62.5 mg 2x/day]
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Marjorie
Moderator~
Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,724
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Post by Marjorie on Jun 6, 2017 6:03:28 GMT -7
I don't understand why the vets didn't do a urine test with the sample brought in, James. I've seen so many vets do just that, including my own. There should have been a determination made as to exactly what is causing Brie's pain. The pain from the surgery should be gone by now. If Brie isn't feeling better in a couple of days, I would insist that the vet do a urine culture. A urine culture can take a couple of days to get the results but it will pinpoint exactly what type of infection it is so they can give the correct antibiotic. Clavamox is a broad spectrum antibiotic. The fact that Brie growled at you when you were expressing her is an indication that this is a UTI so I do hope she will be feeling better soon on the Clavamox.
You should be close to or at the point where a taper of the Prednisone is being done, is that correct? Usually pain meds would also be stopped during the taper but since Brie still has pain, possibly from a UTI, do continue to give all meds and yes, do give the Gabapentin 3 times a day as it works most efficiently when given every 8 hours as it has a short half life. Please continue to give the Pepcid AC 2x/day for as long as she's on the Prednisone.
What is the taper schedule of the Prednisone? Mgs and for how many days to be given?
You may in fact need to muzzle Brie before picking her up until she's feeling better. My dog is very reactive to pain and when he's due for a shot or anything that might be a bit painful, I will put a muzzle on him at the vet's office. You and your wife do not need to be bitten. If you don't like the idea of a muzzle, you could use an e-collar to prevent her from biting you.
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Post by Nadya & Willow on Jun 6, 2017 8:47:56 GMT -7
James, I am so sorry you had such a poor experience with the vet. Do you live close enough to a different vet office? It might be a good idea to get a 2nd opinion. A urine culture does need to be collected in a sterile way but a urinalysis(UA) does not. They should have at least done a UA to look for signs of a UTI and if there were, then done a culture to see which antibiotic the bacteria is sensitive to. To just start an antibiotic without knowing the source is just poor care and as a health care practitioner (humans, not dogs) that really makes me mad. I highly suggest seeing someone else. It seems like Brie is in pain and I feel bad for her, and she deserves the best care. Of note, once you start antibiotics, the culture (that is collected after a few doses of antibiotic) may be negative (especially if the bacteria is senstitive) but the infection will not be fully cleared. However, the UA will still show signs of UTI as long as it's not days after starting. Sorry for the long rant, I just hate it when people throw antibiotics at patients like darts on a wall and hope that something sticks. That is not good medicine.
My vet did make sure Willow is on Gabapentin 3x/day, Brie sounds like she is in pain, so I think increasing it to 3x/day may help her be more comfortable. However, I also notice that the only pain medication Brie is on is Gabapentin, which helps with nerve pain but if the pain is caused by UTI, I'm not sure if Gabapentin is going to help too much. It might be a little much to go back to tramadol but it would be a good idea to ask a vet about other pain control options.
Good luck, I hope Brie feels better soon!
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Post by James & Brie on Jun 6, 2017 18:04:38 GMT -7
This Vet. Hosp. has a reputation for best in town. I've heard little on the positive signs with the others, so I'm kinda stuck there.
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Post by James & Brie on Jun 7, 2017 4:54:03 GMT -7
Hi Marjorie- Today, 6/7 I start the taper of the Prednisone. For the next 5 days she will be receiving 2.5 mgs 1x/day. Then I go to 2.5 mgs every other day for 5 doses. With the Clavamox, I may have worded that wrong. Each tablet is 62.5 mgs. She is required to take 1 1/2 Tablets 2x/day. Which would be 93.7 1/2 mgs. 2x/day. Yes, your right, the idea of a muzzle? I just don't feel right putting one on her. On the other hand, hey it worked. She still tries to get her teeth through the end. But she didn't seem as aggressive tonight. Poor little thing, she doesn't understand any of this. It's really traumatic here at times and I'm sure that doesn't help. I don't know if you have been around people with Dementia much, but they seem to be in denial about pretty much everything and everything turns into a "I promise it won't happen again, I made a mistake". And this goes on continuously. Therefore I have hidden all of the dog food out in my truck. I have it under several layers of blankets, work coats, & newspapers so it won't be in direct sunlight. I have to. I went back to sleep this morning after getting up to express & feed Brie. I get up throughout the night to express Brie because I'm the only one capable. Same with the food & meds. So when I go back to bed in the morning that's when my wife get's up with Brie. I left a 1/4 of a can to use with Brie's pain pill & give her a little something in between meals. It was gone. I leave saran wrap on top with a rubber band around it and I found the rubber band on the floor. So when I asked about the food she denied knowing anything about it and said I'm always accusing her of something. After I stressed upon her the seriousness of Brie getting over weight she admitted that she gave it to Brie and the promises started coming again. This is why I hide the pills and it's not the 1st time with the food. But when I went to buy a few items at the store later in the day and came back to see that she had given Brie even more food, I was a little hot under the collar and hid the food . She told me Brie acted hungry. I could see where a person could lose it after a while. With all that's going on and now I'm losing the woman I fell in love with 20 years ago. It's really not her fault, she's not well. But it's terribly frustrating. This is some hard stuff. I'm sorry for the venting, sometimes I just need to talk.
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