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Post by jaynerae on Jun 7, 2013 7:43:19 GMT -7
11 year old, male, neutered, Standard Poodle, 60 lbs
Diagnosis 6/5/13
1. Intevertebral disc disease(Moderately compressive C5-6 intervertebral disc herniation, worse on the left. Mild T12-13 thru L1-2 herniations vs. protrusion without compression.)
2. Absent Reflex: Bilateral loss of patellar reflexes
Magic has had MRI, ultrasound, digital xrays and spinal tap. Still waiting for results of spinal tap.
Surgical decompression of the herniated disc carries the best prognosis for return to function without relapses. Cage rest for 4-6 weeks can also be considered, but the prognosis for success without relapse is guarded to poor.
Medication: 10 mg Prednisone, twice daily for 3 days. Then once daily for three days. Then 1 tab every other day until prescription is gone.
Tramadol 50 mg 2-4 times daily.
I am also using Pepcid 30 minutes prior to Prednisone.
He is not incontinent. He has not had stool after anesthetized MRI on 6/5. I realize that may take a few days and that Tramadol is also constipating. Vet said not to use pumpkin yet.
Vet: Dr. Ashley Bensfield, Wisconsin Veterinary Referral Center
My questions:
1. Success of surgery for an 11 year old dog. Vet says he is healthy enough for surgery.
2. Quality of remaining life for Magic. He lives on the beach and his life is his daily walks/runs on the beach.
3. Absent Reflex. Vet says this is not from the C5-C6 herniation. (I ordered DM testing kit but that could be another month before results) Has anyone else seen Absent Patellar reflexes with IVDD?
4. Potty. My house is all stairs. 7 stairs to get him to outside level. I am unable to carry. I have a harness on him and a sling. What are other solutions for large dogs? I have looked at the Porch Potty for my walkout deck. Have others had success with this?
I know I feel like everyone on this site. Scared and crying all the time. Magic is with me all day in my home office so we have been together 24/7 for 11 years. I don't have children. He is my life. I want to do what is best for him. It is so hard to watch him suffer. He is a very proud, regal dog. He does not act painful but I know that he is not happy. No joy. He has never had to spend a day in a crate or X-pen in his life. I love this dog.
Thank you for any assistance. I was referred to this site by Barb Techel. Barb's, Frankie, and Magic were friends as they were both Certified Therapy Dogs at a local hospice.
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StevieLuv
Helpful Member 
Conservative Treatment 3x. It really does work!
Posts: 1,335 
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Post by StevieLuv on Jun 7, 2013 11:09:50 GMT -7
Hi, I'm Maureen, Absent patellar reflexes are usually associated with the lumbar spine.( L4 or L5 usually and can be impaired due to age) Surgery is not a huge concern because of his age, especially if he is in good health otherwise. The walk and runs on the beach can happen again after his healing time and post recovery rehab.( crate rest 6 weeks post surgery or 8 weeks of conservative treatment) even if he has to use a wheelchair  Are ramps to the outside a possibility rather that the stairs - like you would use for a person in a wheelchair? He will be depressed if he is confined and not used to it, but they do adapt and it for their own good - it just makes us feel like monsters... Is his pain well controlled- necks can be so difficult. there is alot of info on this site for cervical IVDD too and how to provide physical support. Please let us know what we can do to help - keeping you in thought and prayer ( my Stevie is a St. John Ambulance Therapy Dog ) |
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Post by jaynerae on Jun 7, 2013 11:09:57 GMT -7
I spoke with another vet. He questions why Magic has hind leg problems with a C5-C6 herniation. He would expect more problems in the front. Does anyone have any experience with these. Also, absent patellar reflexes issue? Specialty vet could perform surgery tomorrow but I hate to do so without answers.
Thank you Maureen. If he has surgery to repair C5-C6, I am concerned that he will not have much improvement in his hindquarters if he has absent patellar reflexes?
I am trying to schedule the surgery for tomorrow.
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Post by Pauliana on Jun 7, 2013 14:35:45 GMT -7
Hi Jayne! There is nothing harder than having a dog you love dealing with IVDD, like you, I was crying at first but was told by our vet as well as Dodgerslist to stay upbeat and positive in front of Tyler so he would be confident that everything was going to be all right. Neck disc herniations can be so painful so please read about the usual medications used to keep Magic pain free dose to dose at this link. www.dodgerslist.com/literature/cervical.htmHere is info on how to make your home back friendly and I hope some of these ideas will help. Ramps are better than stairs for dogs that have IVDD. Stairs cause jarring to the back. I know you can't carry him so until you can get a ramp in place, the porch potty in your walk out deck might be the best solution if Magic is willing to use it. I have never used one for my dog, but perhaps someone in our membership has and will chime in. www.dodgerslist.com/literature/protectback.htmMagic has more than a cervical disc issue going on.. He also has a "thoracic as well as lumbar herniation vs protrusion without compression" according to his diagnosis that you shared with us. That is likely the reason for the hind leg problems. The discs may not be compressing right now but could.. That is the reason crate rest or rest in an ex pen recovery suite would protect dear Magic from further injury. The crate acts to protect the spine as a cast would on a broken leg. It takes longer for discs and the spine to heal than a broken bone. It is lack of movement that heals the disc while medications such as Prednisone take down the inflammation and pain meds mask the pain so healing can begin. www.dodgerslist.com/literature/EmergencyCrate%20Training.htm#Emergencyconfinement
www.dodgerslist.com/literature/CrateRRP.htm www.dodgerslist.com/literature/cratesupplies.htm
You would need to ask the surgeon if ALL his disc problems would be repaired with the surgery. We asked for that when Tyler was going to have surgery on January 28th. We told the doctor that if she saw additional herniations about to rupture to attend to those too. As it turned out he only had one area of concern. Magic has several so I would make sure of what the surgeon intends to do as you decide the best options for your dear boy..
Crate rest or ex pen rest isn't easy especially with dogs that are not used to being confined but it is the best thing to do to insure an excellent recovery.. Tyler was nursed by his mama in a crate so he felt safe and secure in one and still loves to sleep in his personal den at night time. He graduated post op crate rest on March 11th and even now he voluntarily walks into his crate for a nap at times. We are retired and he is our constant companion around the house and goes with us everywhere and is so loved.. I have been there and know what you are going through..I am just a few months of ahead of you in the IVDD journey.
Dogs with IVDD can live a happy life after recovery..Please read this, I think it will help you to feel better. www.dodgerslist.com/index/SDUNCANquality.htm
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Post by jaynerae on Jun 7, 2013 16:27:47 GMT -7
Thank you for this information. I was unable to get him scheduled for surgery until next week. I am keeping him still and using a sling to assist. I know that the surgeon is going in for the disk under his throat area. The other disks were not touching the spine. I have talked with my regular vet about the correlation with the neck herniation vs problems with his hind legs. He had the same concern about whether surgery on C5-C6 would help his back leg movement. He spoke with the neurologist(board certified for surgery) and another ortho doc at a different Emergency Vet clinic and he said that he would defer to the neurologist as the expert when she said that surgery would offer a 70% success rate. She said conservative treatment would be 50/50 with a 30% chance of relapse.
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Post by jaynerae on Jun 9, 2013 6:36:46 GMT -7
How do I locate a clinic where acupuncture can be performed in Wisconsin?
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Post by Sherry Layman on Jun 9, 2013 7:16:20 GMT -7
Here is a link to our page on acupuncture, you'll find information there on locating an acupuncture vet on the page. You could also contact your vet for information. www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingacupuncture.htmIs it possible to contact another surgeon/specialist? Are there others in your area? If you want to pursue surgery a week is a long wait. Also I am concerned also that you are being told the cervical disc is the cause of the patellar reflex loss, the patellar reflex is controlled by nerves in the lumbar area of the spine. |
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StevieLuv
Helpful Member
Conservative Treatment 3x. It really does work!
Posts: 1,335
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Post by StevieLuv on Jun 9, 2013 7:44:47 GMT -7
Sherry makes a valid point about contacting another specialist - especially since you don't seem to be getting the answers that you need about the C spine surgery and his hind leg impairment. Remember that surgeons will always recommend surgery - that is what they do, and it would be sad to put him through surgery if it isn't going to resolve his signs and symptoms. (surgery is necessary for uncontrollable pain that is for sure!) The herniations on this Thoracic and lumbar discs can be putting pressure on the spinal nerves ( vs the spinal cord) and giving you those lower limb signs too. Because the surgery is delayed you do have time to check around, and decide if a conservative approach would work out better for both of you. I know how confusing and frustrating all of this is. We will do anything that we can to help. Check other members postings too - Jude with Penny (a Rottweiler) or Tony with Buddy (Labrador Retr.) may have some great ideas for working with the big dogs.
Keeping you in thought and prayer.
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Post by Sherry Layman on Jun 9, 2013 9:25:16 GMT -7
Not to be contradictory or argumentative because Maureen is very supportive and helpful but a GOOD surgeon will not always recommend surgery. A surgeon is a specialist and therefore has expert detailed knowledge in the area of IVDD. General vets see many many species of animals and all their varying health issues so cannot be expected to know the details of all treatments. If surgery is not the most prudent course of action a surgeon should tell you that and give you instructions on how to proceed and how to know when surgery might become the best option.
I had this happen to me in fact years ago. I took my dog to K-State fully expecting to leave him for surgery. He stayed a few days for IV steroids and strict observation. We brought him home but unfortunately his condition deteriorated to complete paralysis and at the time they were ready to do the MRI prior to surgery he had lost deep pain perception. He had surgery and did fully recover. Point being a surgeon did recommend that we try a conservative option first, as any good surgeon should in an appropriate situation.
Just making the point for anyone reading that just because you see a surgeon doesn't mean you are sentencing your dog to an unnecessary invasive procedure. It should be the place you go to get the very best of expert advice.
Apologies Maureen. :-)
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PaulaM
Moderator. 
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,928
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Post by PaulaM on Jun 9, 2013 10:15:43 GMT -7
I would recommend getting a 2nd neuro specialist opinion as well for these reasons: -- Dodgerslist knows Dachshunds, but do not know large breed dogs to advise you well. Large breed dogs have their own breed diseases which can look like IVDD where the treatment would be opposite of the treatment for IVDD. So getting a 2nd opinion with another neuro would be a good idea. -- Has anyone suggested this may be FCE which is affecting the hind legs?? FCE is not generally painful where as IVDD is. -FCE shows no disc compression on an MRI, IVDD shows disc compression. -FCE the first 24 hrs the maximum damage is done, where as IVDD damage can be a progressive thing over days. -- With FCE surgery is not necessary. Nursing care and physical therapy are the cornerstone of treatment. more information: www.avsspecialists.com/insights/2009063001.phpCan you update us on his neck disc problem, as to how the pain is being controlled fully or not now that he is undergoing a taper off of the anti-inflammatory dose down to 1x a day dose? |
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Post by jaynerae on Jun 9, 2013 16:25:36 GMT -7
The lack of patellar responses is a concern for me. The specialty vet said "could be age." My vet questioned the speciality vet and she says 70% success with surgery. My vet said he would defer to the expert.
I did read this:
Most disk ruptures occur in the middle to lower part of the back. However, they may also occur in the neck. The former often causes paralysis without severe pain; the latter often causes severe pain without paralysis. If paralysis affects all four legs, the disk rupture must be in the neck. Because of the way the nerve tracts are arranged in the spinal cord, disk ruptures in the neck may affect the rear legs first or even exclusively.
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Post by jaynerae on Jun 9, 2013 16:29:43 GMT -7
-- Has anyone suggested this may be FCE which is affecting the hind legs?? FCE is not generally painful where as IVDD is. Vascular event was a rule out diagnosis-FCE shows no disc compression on an MRI, IVDD shows disc compression. MRI showed disc compression.-FCE the first 24 hrs the maximum damage is done, where as IVDD damage can be a progressive thing over days. -- With FCE surgery is not necessary. Nursing care and physical therapy are the cornerstone of treatment. more information: www.avsspecialists.com/insights/2009063001.phpCan you update us on his neck disc problem, as to how the pain is being controlled fully or not now that he is undergoing a taper off of the anti-inflammatory dose down to 1x a day dose? His pain is being controlled with Tramadol. He gives a low groan when he lays down but otherwise is resting seemingly comfortable.Read more: dodgerslist.boards.net/thread/471/jaynes-magic-conservative-poodle-lumbar#ixzz2VlSzPU8T |
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,928
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Post by PaulaM on Jun 9, 2013 16:38:50 GMT -7
Jayne we have had dogs having two discs at the same time giving a problem. This could be the case with Magic???
The typical way to do a taper is to also back off or stop the pain med as well to get clear verification if all the swelling is gone in the spinal cord. Did the vet discuss this with you? How often do you actually give the tramadol now?
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Post by jaynerae on Jun 9, 2013 16:44:46 GMT -7
No acupuncture vets listed in Wisconsin? Did I do something wrong in my search?
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Post by jaynerae on Jun 9, 2013 16:50:30 GMT -7
I am concerned about two different disk causing the problem. Jayne we have had dogs having two discs at the same time giving a problem. This could be the case with Magic??? I am concerned about two different disks causing the problem. I need to ask that question directly. Thank you.The typical way to do a taper is to also back off or stop the pain med as well to get clear verification if all the swelling is gone in the spinal cord. Did the vet discuss this with you? How often do you actually give the tramadol now? No, it was not discussed with me to taper down the tramadol. Only the prednisone. I am giving him one 50 mg tramadol every 6 hours. The bottle reads 1 to 1.5 tablets every 6-12 hours as needed.Read more: dodgerslist.boards.net/post/new/471#ixzz2VlXqiZqp |
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Post by Linda Stowe on Jun 9, 2013 17:06:39 GMT -7
Jayne I found these in WI at www.ahvma.org/Widgets/FindVet.htmlDonahue, Carrie DVM Full Circle Veterinary Care 608-620-4729 102 S. Segoe Road Madison WI 53705 United States www.fullcirclepet.comEXOTIC, HOUSE CALLS, SMALL ANIMAL Acupuncture, Acupuncture (CHI), Bach Flowers, Chinese Herbs, Chinese Herbs (Chi Institute), Clinical Nutrition, Conventional Medicine, Glandular Therapy, Homotoxicology, Massage Therapy, Nutrition, Reiki, Western Herbs Engel, Marta DVM RISING SUN ANIMAL WELLNESS CENTER 608-637-2227 315 EAST DECKER ST Viroqua WI 54665 United States www.risingsunvet.comEQUINE, FARM, SMALL ANIMAL Acupuncture, Acupuncture (IVAS), Bach Flowers, Chinese Herbs, Chiropractic, Chiropractic (AVCA), Chiropractic (HOWC), Conventional Medicine, Homeopathy-Classical, Nutrition, Western Herbs Greco, Martha DVM 608-516-8176 722 ROSEMARY LN Baraboo WI 53913 United States HOUSE CALLS, SMALL ANIMAL Acupuncture, Acupuncture (IVAS), Western Herbs Gruenstern, Jodie DVM, CVA ANIMAL DOCTOR HOLISTIC VETERINARY COMPLEX 414-422-1300 S 73 W16790 JANESVILLE RD Muskego/Milwaukee area WI 53150 United States www.animaldoctormuskego.comSMALL ANIMAL Acupuncture, Acupuncture (CHI), Chinese Herbs, Chinese Herbs (Chi Institute), Clinical Nutrition, Conventional Medicine, Glandular Therapy, Homeopathy, Massage Therapy, Nutrition, OTHER(fill in below), Western Herbs Harkins, Jan DVM REEDSBURG SMALL ANIMAL CLINIC 608-524-6545 222 NORTH WALNUT ST Reedsburg WI 53959 United States SMALL ANIMAL Acupuncture, Applied Kinesiology, Bach Flowers, Chiropractic, Chiropractic (AVCA), Clinical Nutrition, Conventional Medicine, Homotoxicology, NAET, Nutrition, Western Herbs Kottke, Janna DVM 608-632-1742 E7973 Maple Dale Road Viroqua WI 54665 United States www.pinpointveterinary.comEQUINE, SMALL ANIMAL Acupuncture, Acupuncture (IVAS), Chinese Herbs, Nutrition, Reiki Magnusson, Dale DVM MAGNUSSON VETERINARY SERVICES, LLC 715-386-6485 531 OLD HWY 35 Hudson WI 54016-8144 United States EQUINE, FARM, SMALL ANIMAL Acupuncture, Acupuncture (CSU), Applied Kinesiology, Chinese Herbs, Chiropractic, Chiropractic (AVCA), Conventional Medicine, Homotoxicology McCracken, Rebecca DVM 262-939-5668 2730 247TH AVE Salem WI 53168 United States www.animaldoctormuskego.comSMALL ANIMAL Acupuncture, Acupuncture (IVAS), Chiropractic, Chiropractic (HOWC), Massage Therapy, Nutrition Morgan, Ann-margret DVM Pewuakee Veterinary Service 262-347-0787 N29 W23950 Schuett Dr Pewaukee WI 53072 United States www.pewaukeeveterinaryservice.comSMALL ANIMAL Acupuncture, Acupuncture (IVAS), Chiropractic, Chiropractic (AVCA), Clinical Nutrition, Conventional Medicine, Glandular Therapy, Nutrition, Western Herbs Vognar, Linda University of CA Four Paws, Five Treasures LLC 715-579-9472 364 Heather Court Eau Claire WI 54701 United States www.acupuncture4animals.comAVIAN, EXOTIC, SMALL ANIMAL Acupuncture, Acupuncture (CHI), Bach Flowers, Chinese Herbs, Clinical Nutrition, Conventional Medicine, Nutrition, Western Herbs |
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Post by jaynerae on Jun 9, 2013 17:24:26 GMT -7
Thank you!
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StevieLuv
Helpful Member
Conservative Treatment 3x. It really does work!
Posts: 1,335
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Post by StevieLuv on Jun 9, 2013 17:26:36 GMT -7
Keeping you in thought and prayer - that you get the answers you need and that Magic continues to improve. |
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Post by jaynerae on Jun 9, 2013 18:55:21 GMT -7
Thank you. We so appreciate your prayers.
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Post by Pauliana on Jun 10, 2013 17:49:56 GMT -7
Hi Jayne!
How is Magic doing tonight? Thinking of both of you!
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Post by jaynerae on Jun 12, 2013 15:51:51 GMT -7
Magic had ventral slot surgery on June 11.
I just brought him home late this afternoon. He is on Tramadol every 8 hours. He is trying to rest but is uncomfortable at times. The surgery was without complications. I will do all I can to keep him comfortable.
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StevieLuv
Helpful Member
Conservative Treatment 3x. It really does work!
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Post by StevieLuv on Jun 12, 2013 18:41:42 GMT -7
I am so glad to hear that he had an uneventful surgery and that you are able to have him home with you. Keep us posted on how your beautiful boy is doing Keeping you in thought and prayer |
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Post by Pauliana on Jun 12, 2013 19:53:29 GMT -7
Hi Jayne,
Glad to hear Magic had a successful Ventral slot surgery and is home with you now. If Tramadol isn't keeping him comfortably pain free, I would let the surgeon know so they can add another medication such as Gabapentin for hard to control pain, it is especially good for nerve pain and works very well with Tramadol.
Sending healing wishes to your regal and handsome Magic..
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Post by jaynerae on Jun 13, 2013 18:16:22 GMT -7
I brought Magic home on 6/12 in the afternoon. It was a difficult evening as I knew he was in pain. He passed away at 7:00 am this morning 6/13. Surgeon suspects maybe a blood clot? He was doing well when released. My heart is broken. I loved him so much.
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Post by Pauliana on Jun 13, 2013 19:09:49 GMT -7
Jayne,
My heart is broken too.. I am so very sorry.. My heart goes out to you!
Big Hugs,
Pauliana
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Post by Linda Stowe on Jun 13, 2013 19:39:37 GMT -7
Jayne, I'm so very sorry. I just lost mine recently unexpectedly so know what you are feeling. Thinking of you now and sending you healing and hugs.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,928
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Post by PaulaM on Jun 13, 2013 19:41:26 GMT -7
Jane, my heart breaks with you with this very unexpected turn of events. My experience is you will never get used to Magic not being with you, over time you just learn to cope... your mind eventually dwells on the lovely times you shared, the times he made you laugh. He did not leave you, he just changed worlds and now he forever remains in a safe and warm place... your loving heart and your memory... he is now watching over you. May Magic soon begin to help you laugh again as you are reminded of his antics and unique quirkiness! Give yourself time to grieve. You may wish to join a pet grief group for support: www.dailystrength.org/c/Pet-Bereavement/support-groupJohn Denver's poetry in song says when you feel most alone love will bring you home:
Sending you (warmest hugs) with my sincere condolences.
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StevieLuv
Helpful Member
Conservative Treatment 3x. It really does work!
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Post by StevieLuv on Jun 14, 2013 16:03:45 GMT -7
I am so very sorry for your loss. You will meet again at the Bridge. Farewell sweet Magic, run fast and free (((hugs)))
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Post by Scott Squared on Jun 14, 2013 17:08:16 GMT -7
One amazing thing about the internet, there are far more thoughts and prayers out there for you than you'll ever realize. Strangers from all walks of life are here for you during this difficult time.
MANY HUGS! =(
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Post by Nancy & Polly on Jun 14, 2013 19:29:41 GMT -7
I am so sorry for your loss. (((hugs)))
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