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Post by Gina & Olive on Jul 4, 2014 11:17:23 GMT -7
My dog's name is Olive. She is a 6 year old smooth coat, long haired, tweenie, dachshund currently weighing in about 12-12 1/2 lbs. My name is Gina.
I suppose we've officially gotten an IVDD diagnosis. This has been a long and frustrating journey.
For this latest episode we saw our regular (new- we moved across town last year) vet 6/21 and a neurologist 7/3. We recognized the signs of this issue starting again and started crate rest or as we call it the 'condo' right away around 6/16. We noticed Olive was wobbly on 6/20 which was the first time we experience this with her and as of today she has some use of her right leg but is mostly dragging her left leg. She will still wag her tail when we talk to her.
We previously experienced IVDD with Olive about a year and a half ago. It was a very frustrating 11 months of different information, vets and medications before we finally read up on Dodgerslist about strict crate rest and that did the trick. Olive had 2-3 very mild issues after that but nothing significant/required medication until now.
Olive has a very bright spirit and she is truly the light of our family (no kids yet, chihuahua/papillon mix- Lola, tabby cat- Max) but with this episode she does seem to be in more severe pain than the previous episode. We are controlling it well with medication though. She will occasionally whimper or tighten her tummy when we're taking her in and out to potty and her lower back is very stiff but otherwise she is her trouble making old self.
She is currently taking the following medications, started ~6/18:
12 to 12 1/2 lbs
Prednisone, 5 mg, 1/2 tab twice a day.
Methocaramol, 500 mg, 1/4 tab twice a day.
Tramadol, 50 mg, 1/2 tab twice a day. STOPPED 4/3
Gabapentin 50 mg, 0.6 ml's twice a day. BEGAN 4/3
The specialist we saw yesterday said to discontinue Tramadol and replace it with Gabapentin 50 mg, 0.6 ml's twice a day. Olive hates this medicine thus far and tries to spit it out. It seems to temporarily knock her out more than the Tramadol.
Her bowel and bladder control is intermittent. She can hold it during the night but might poop in her cage once or twice a day. Bladder control is better although she isn't peeing totally normally, she pees mostly when we pick her up and talk to her in a high pitched voice outside.
Otherwise all else is normal, eating and drinking, etc. and she's up for causing her normal shenanigans- talking to us, crying for treats and toys with squeakers, etc.
My husband and I feel like we can't make any sense of the information that we have. We've seen a handful of vets and specialists between this episode and the last but no one seems to have consistent or helpful information which makes it really challenging to make informed decisions. We are both gone at work every weekday but we are ok to give Olive the extra care she needs during crate rest and should she not have full use of her legs again or require wheels. But I can't stand to see her in severe pain or to cause damage to her organs one after another from being medicated the rest of her life or for a long period of time. I also understand that a positive result from surgery diminishes every day (maybe it's too late already). For us, surgery is not really on the table for many different reasons (financial, risks, probability for recovery). Therefore, we're caught between asking if it's fair to her that we keep her and try to give her the best life we can for as long as we can or do we look at alternatives to adopt her out to an organization that would give her that care or does that too come with too high of risks (surgery doesn't fix the issues, can't adopt her out, will just euthanize her). I very selfishly want to keep her but if it's not in her best interests, we will do whatever we need to do.
So here we've been for days... weeks... I feel stuck and frustrated and sad for my baby. I'm tired of crying and searching for answers that may not be found or known. I just wanted to post here because I know many of you have been through what we're going through and I'm hoping for any help or insights you can offer.
Thanks.
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Marjorie
Moderator~ 
Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,724 
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Post by Marjorie on Jul 4, 2014 13:19:31 GMT -7
Welcome to Dodgerslist, Matt & Gina. Olive needs to be with her family, surrounded by your love. There is no reason to be thinking of giving her up or to anticipate her being in a crate the rest of her life. She may well improve. Nerves can take a long time to heal, think more in terms of months, even a year or more, but heal they certainly can. 1. Pain. Olive is definitely showing signs of pain and that pain must be brought under control today. Whimpering and tightening her tummy are signs that the pain meds are not doing their job. Why did the vet want to stop the Tramadol? Is he aware of the signs of pain that you're seeing? Tramadol works best when given consistently every 8 hours (3x/day). The vet also has room to move up on the dosage of the Tramadol. Gabapentin works very well along with Tramadol. It looks like Olive was prescribed a liquid form. Please speak to your vet about prescribing a capsule which may work better for Olive. Have no patience with pain as pain hinders healing. Speak to your vet about adjusting the meds asap. 2. Anti-inflammatory. Olive is being given a low dose of Prednisone. Vets use a higher level of oral steroids to work more effectively in getting painful swelling down. Rxing a tentative lower end dose of Pred (2.5mg 2x a day) rather than being aggressive with the upper end of the dosing for inflammation (5mg 2x a day) means Olive is being given a dose of prednisone that may be similar to what the body makes on its own…. so the job is not getting done. The swelling is pressing on the nerves of the spine, which cause pain and the possibly of nerve damage. It's very important to get that swelling down. It can take 7-30 days for the swelling to resolve on an anti-inflammatory dose of Prednisone. At some point, the vet will prescribe a taper of the steroid. If there is still pain during that taper, then Olive would need to be returned to the anti-inflammatory level. If there is no pain at the end of the taper of the steroid, then all meds can be stopped. It would appear that Olive has been on this low dose of Prednisone since 6/18 and she still has pain. Please speak to the vet about increasing the Prednisone to an anti-inflammatory dose of 5 mg 2x/day to get the swelling resolved so Olive will have no pain. 3. Bladder control. If Olive is peeing when you pick her up, her bladder may be overflowing, which can lead to the bladder being stretched out and also can lead to a urinary tract infection. Have you tried a sniff and pee test? Take Olive to a spot where she's peed before, support her hind end but not under her belly, let her sniff and see if she can release urine on her own. If she can, then she has bladder control. If not, then you'll need to get a hands on your hands demonstration on expressing from your vet. While on Prednisone, which causes increased thirst and urination, Olive will need to be taken outside to pee more often. If she doesn't have bladder control, she should be expressed every 2-3 hours. If she has bladder control, then every 3-4 hours she should be taken outside to do her business. Possibly the two of you could work out something with work where you could work out a time schedule for expressing while she's on the Prednisone. Here is our page with information about expressing: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/Expressing.htm Please let us know how a sniff and pee test goes. 4. Crate rest. Was the crate rest that was started on 6/16 strict crate rest and she's been on strict crate rest since then? 100% STRICT crate rest 24/7 only out to potty for a full 8 weeks is the SINGLE most important thing you can do to help your dog-- it is the hallmark component of conservative treatment. Carried in and out to potty. No laps, no couch, no sleeping in bed with you, no meandering, scooting or dragging around during potty times. No baths, no chiro (aka VOM). In other words do everything you can to limit the vertebrae in the back from moving and putting pressure on the bad disc. www.dodgerslist.com/literature/CrateRRP.htm5. Pepcid AC. Pepcid AC should be given to protect your dog from the excess acid produced by the anti-inflammatory. Please get your vet's permission to give 5 mg of Pepcid AC (generic is famotidine) 30 minutes before the dose of the anti-inflammatory and thereafter every 12 hours). Phrase the question to your vet in this particular way: "Is there any medical reason my dog may not take Pepcid AC?" If your vet says your dog has no health issues such as liver, heart, etc to keep her from taking Pepcid AC, then do get it on board. Laser light therapy, acupuncture and electroacupuncture which sends a microcurrent of electricity to and from acupuncture points (which are really big nerve bundles), can be very beneficial at helping to re-establish the nerve connections in the body. Any one of these therapies can be started right away if in your budget... they not only help relieve pain and inflammation but will kick start nerves to begin regeneration. NOTE: Chiropractic is not recommended for IVDD dogs. With this disease self education is critical not just so you make sure the right things are being done for the best recovery but for your own emotions. The unknown is simply a scary place. Get ready to fight this disease now and in the future by knowing all things IVDD. There is no better place to start than on our main web page with "Overview: the essentials" and then read all you can as soon as possible. Here's the link www.dodgerslist.com/healingindex.htmPlease don't despair. IVDD is not a death sentence. Many dogs regain use of their legs and even if they don't, their lives can be happy ones. www.dodgerslist.com/index/SDUNCANquality.htmHealing prayers for Olive. |
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Post by Gina & Olive on Jul 9, 2014 18:56:44 GMT -7
Hi Marjorie,
Thank you so much for your reply, information and encouragement.
My foremost desire is to give Olive the very best care we can. I think we were just feeling discouraged that by keeping her we were not doing that. I've been doing tons of research and we've visited our fair share of vet but sometimes it's hard to put the pieces together as many seem to conflict.
I have been giving Olive a dose of Tramadol at night in addition to her other medications which seems to help her have better mornings and that seems to have taken the edge off. I guess the vet only perscribed liquid Gabapentin to tide us over until I could place an order for the correct dosage of the pill form through Diamondback pharmacy which I did earlier this week so that is good. I'm keeping an eye out for any other pain indicators and I will call the vet if things don't seem normal. I have been giving Olive a higher dose of Prednisone as well and I will work with the vet on the tappred down schedule. I had also gotten the ok to do the Pepcid AC from them as well so we started that last weekend, especially in light of the higher dose of Prednisone.
I appreciate the information on the bladder issues. We saw a vet on Monday night (after a very frustrating initial visit where one of the doctors- without touching Olive at all- said that she had a bladder that could NOT be expressed and she WILL get a bladder infections and she WILL need to be on medication to relax her sphincter, etc., I was less than thrilled...) who was very kind and both him and a tech tried to express Olive's bladder to no avail. She's very stubborn... So I have watched some videos and will continue to try on my own but they also helped me identify when her bladder is full and where to feel for it. I haven't yet seen her bladder that full so the system we have going is the best we can do I guess. She still seems to have intermittent bladder and bowel control. Sometimes she can sniff and pee and sometimes she cries to tell us she has to go out to poop- sometimes she doesn't.
Her crate rest was started 6/16 and has been strict. We have the 8 weeks marked on the calendar.
I will definetily look into the alternate treatments you mentioned as well. The vet gave us a referral for someone who is at their clinic a few days a week. The vet that I didn't like said that we should be keeping her joints moving or they will freeze up and can never be undone... I wanted to run that past you.
Everyone we've seen (except you guys) have said that Olive will essentially plateau and then get worse at some point. Which is frustrating but either way, we are hopeful and we will continue to do our best to educate ourselves and care for our little girl.
Thank you again for your support.
Gina
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Post by Cindi & Kytt on Jul 9, 2014 20:46:53 GMT -7
Gina, My Oscar was paralyzed by IVDD, and like your Olive, he was very hard to express. The vets at Texas A&M put him on phenoxybenzamine, which relaxed the urethral sphincter tone and made expressing him MUCH easier. Keep your chin up Gina!! I've had three pups battle IVDD, and I can tell you you guys will make it through this. Keep reading; keep learning and keep advocating for your precious Olive. Hugs, Cindi and Keeghan Edited to add: By no means am I suggesting that your Olive will not fully recover, I only offer this information to let you know that no matter what hurdle you and Olive face with IVDD, there is help.  Hunter, one of my other IVDD pups recovered fully twice with surgery, and Keeghan, my newest addition is healing with conservative treatment. |
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Post by Pauliana on Jul 9, 2014 21:01:46 GMT -7
Hi Gina, The very, very lightest least aggressive range of motion and leg massage is necessary for paralyzed legs during conservative treatment once off of all meds and there is no more pain. The information highlighted in PINK pertains to a dog who can't walk. But wait until she is no longer on medications. The focus now is healing her disc and lack of movement is key to her recovery. www.dodgerslist.com/literature/massagepassiveexercises.htmOlive still has some bladder control even though it is intermittent and maybe that is why she is resisting being expressed. I would keep trying the expressing after she pees to make sure she has released all the urine so none of it sits in her bladder to keep a UTI from happening. She can still wag her tail and that is a great sign! She is a great candidate for recovering on conservative treatment. There is no timetable anyone can give you when to expect nerve repair to happen. In fact, there is no time limit for nerves to heal...it can take weeks to more like a year or even longer. However, it is known that neurological function usually returns in the reverse order of the damage. The first big sign you want to look for is that wonderful tail wag! 1. Deep Pain Sensation (Only correctly identified by a specialist.) 2. Tail wagging with joy at seeing you, getting a treat or due to your happy talk. <-------Olive is here 3. Bladder and bowel control proved by passing the "sniff and pee" test. <-------Possibly here! Take your dog out to an old pee spot in the grass. Let him sniff and then observe for release of urine. 4. Leg movement, and then ability to move up into a standing position, and then wobbly walking. 5. Being able to walk with more steadiness and properly placed paws. 6. Ability to walk unassisted and perhaps even run. It isn't always true that IVDD dogs get worse instead of better. The secret is the 8 weeks of strict crate rest for the proper recovery and medications until the swelling is gone. Some dogs have one episode in their lifetimes and others have multiple episodes.. My Tyler woke up paralyzed in January of 2013 and had surgery and had 6 weeks post op crate rest and recovered walking. He had a milder episode during the following summer, but could walk. He recovered with 8 weeks of crate rest and medications for the first 7 days. He has had false alarms since that turned out to be other problems and not an IVDD episode. He is playful, we take nice walks and to look at him no one would ever know he has IVDD.. He knows he can't jump on furniture or use stairs.. He waits for us to help him get to where he wants to go. Once deep pain perception is regained, your dog has a chance at a walking recovery. Thousands of dogs on Dodgerslist have regained functions in as little as 2 weeks, others 11 months, and still others 3 years later. IVDD is a disease of patience to allow the body to heal on its own terms. Acupuncture and Laser Therapy stimulate the cell’s metabolism that leads to the body’s natural repair abilities and can be started at any time. Prayers for Olive and comforting thoughts for you! |
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Post by Gina & Olive on Jul 21, 2014 20:03:26 GMT -7
Thank you to Pauliana and Cindi & Keeghan, your encouragement has kept us going.
I am VERY happy to report that Olive has slowly been regaining bladder and bowel control and use of her legs. She's back to wobbly walking! I can't believe it and we are forever grateful but I know there is still a journey ahead. She is still on crate rest (we're at week 5 or so) and we are slowly weaning her off her▼ Prednisone and hopefully other meds as well. I am hopeful that she will continue to improve and that we will have ramp construction in our future!
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Sabrina
Helpful Member 
My Charley-dog, a Dodger'sList grad enjoying life!
Posts: 471
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Post by Sabrina on Jul 22, 2014 10:41:56 GMT -7
Hi Gina! Great news on Olive regaining function, and so glad to hear you are giving her the crate rest her body needs to develop the secure scar tissue around her healing disc(s)! When the steroid is tapered, that is a test to see if it has resolved the swelling/inflammation. The sign of swelling/inflammation is pain. So, if Olive is still on full doses of her pain meds, they could be masking if she is still having any pain. Do call your vet today and discuss either tapering down on the pain meds or stopping them altogether. That way you will have a clear picture of what's going on. This page has more info: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingsweling.htm-- Rule of thumb: pain = swelling = more time on anti-inflammatory, pain meds and Pepcid AC needed. -- To have a clear picture on a steroid taper, pain meds are also stopped or backed off too. The steroid dose is lowered to less than the anti-flammatory dose. The owner's job at home would be to assess just how well reduction of swelling is going by observing for any hint of pain. Immediate feedback to the vet about any pain is necessary. Often a plan B is arranged ahead of time so that if the pain happens at night or on weekends when the vet is not open, the owner knows what meds to give til the vet can be contacted. ))Hugs!(( Let us know what your vet says! |
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Post by Cindi & Kytt on Jul 22, 2014 22:38:47 GMT -7
Gina, I am so glad to hear Olive is improving!!! Stay religious to that crate rest,and keep positive. We are keeping you guys in our prayers! Cindi and Keeghan |
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Hunter, one of my other IVDD pups recovered fully twice with surgery, and Keeghan, my newest addition is healing with conservative treatment. 
