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Post by Debby & Chloe on Dec 28, 2013 22:37:36 GMT -7
I am new to this site. My 3 yr old doxie had surgery 2 weeks ago today. We brought her home 1 week ago. I am getting worried because we are seeing no progress from her yet. She still cannot use her back legs at all or her bladder on her own. Should we be seeing some kind of improvement by now? We have her on crate rest, her appetite is very good. I've been reading about lazer treatmenst. Has anyone here used that before? I'm wondering if that would be an option?
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Marjorie
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Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
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Post by Marjorie on Dec 29, 2013 7:54:52 GMT -7
Welcome to Dodgerslist, Debby It can take 2-4 weeks for the swelling after surgery to go down. Until the swelling resolves, the nerves are not connecting correctly. So it's still early days for Chloe. It took my Jeremy months before he had any movement in his feet at all following his surgery and he's walking again. There is no timetable anyone can give you when to expect nerve repair to happen. In fact, there is no time limit for nerves to heal...it can take weeks to more like a year or even longer. However, it is known that neurological function usually returns in the reverse order of the damage. The first big sign you want to look for is that wonderful tail wag! Have you been treated to a tail wag yet? 1. Deep Pain Sensation (Only correctly identified by a specialist.) 2. Tail wagging with joy at seeing you, getting a treat or due to your happy talk. 3. Bladder and bowel control proved by passing the "sniff and pee" test. Take your dog out to an old pee spot in the grass. Let him sniff and then observe for release of urine. 4. Leg movement, and then ability to move up into a standing position, and then wobbly walking. 5. Being able to walk with more steadiness and properly placed paws. 6. Ability to walk unassisted and perhaps even run. Both laser treatment and acupuncture are very good treatments to give the nerves a jump start in regenerating. www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingacupuncture.htmAlso water therapy can be performed after the stitches/sutures are removed. Some of these exercises can be done right in the bathtub. www.dodgerslist.com/literature/watertherapy.htmWhat did the surgeon prescribe as far as length of crate rest and physical therapy? Here are our recommendations for physical therapy. You might want to run these past the surgeon to see if he'd like you to do any of them with Chloe. These should only be done after all meds have stopped and there's no pain: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/massagepassiveexercises.htmHow are you doing expressing Chloe? Are you finding wet bedding or is she leaking on you when she's picked up? Here are our expressing tips: here: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/Expressing.htm
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Post by Debby & Chloe on Dec 29, 2013 15:14:19 GMT -7
Ok..Thanks so much for the info. I have noticed the last few times after I have expressed her bladder her tail does wag a little, but I don't think she is doing it on her own.
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Post by Debby & Chloe on Dec 30, 2013 17:34:21 GMT -7
I am so upset! We took Chloe to our regular vet today to get her staples out. This is not the same vet who did her surgery, We had to take her somewhere else 3 hrs away for that. Anyway after taking out her staples, she checked her out a little, she is getting deep pain back in her right foot so that was good. Then the vet went on to tell me..."You know, she's probably not going to ever get any better!"....Why would she say that??? I thinkits time to change vets!!
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Post by Pauliana on Dec 30, 2013 19:47:17 GMT -7
Hi Debby! You are so right, it is time to change Vets. You don't need that kind of negative attitude in your Vet, you need their encouragement and support. Here is a link that tells what to look for in a Vet knowledgeable about IVDD. It also has a search engine for locating a Vet in your area. www.dodgerslist.com/literature/VetchkList.htmBest of luck to you in your search.
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Post by Debby & Chloe on Jan 9, 2014 20:26:39 GMT -7
It has been almost 4 weeks since Chloes surgery....we are not seeing much improvement. She still cannot use her back legs and we are still having to express her bladder..I'm getting worried that nothing is happening yet. We just started her on laser therapy and next Monday she starts acupuncture. I am hoping to see some kind of results with that. She seems to be in good spirits most of the time, she really wants to get up and run around, she is not happy having to sit in her kennel. We do take her out and let her lay with us and sleep on the couch. Hopefully I will have some better new soon......
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Post by Pauliana on Jan 9, 2014 21:14:01 GMT -7
Hi Debby,
Please be careful about letting her sleep on the couch. All it would take is a ringing doorbell or a knock at the door to have her try to fly off the couch..Even dogs that have no use of their back legs can move pretty quick with their front legs when they are excited and she would fall and could injure herself..
Any time out of the crate is a dangerous time to a healing disc except for therapy and Vet appointments. You can try putting the crate next to you on the couch or on the coffee table if you have one so she is on the same level and you can reach in and soothe her and pet her.. You are getting close only 16 days to go.
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Post by Debby & Chloe on Jan 10, 2014 17:18:50 GMT -7
We are very careful when she is laying on the couch. We never leave her alone and someone always has a hand laying on her. Most of the time she is buried under her blanket!
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,579
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Post by PaulaM on Jan 11, 2014 0:16:19 GMT -7
Way too often we have heard devastating news on the unexpected. All dogs do the unexpected. Paralyzed ones jump from the couch, drag themselves down stairs. Owners feel very guilty that they put their own pleasure and priorities over providing a safe healing environment. The owner may have another vet bill to pay, some more pain meds..and guilt..that is all. The dog on the other hand may tear something post op…and they suffer the pain.
The recovery suite keeps them from doing the unexpected, darting off at the sound of the TV doorbell. The suite is always supportive of the back, horizontal never sloping as a couch cushions can. The next four weeks will go by in a flash, then it will be safe to snuggle all you want.
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Post by Debby & Chloe on Jan 20, 2014 17:09:13 GMT -7
It has been just over 5 weeks since Chloes surgery, and we are finally starting to see some change!! She has had accupuncture 2 times now, and they were very happy with her progress since the 1st one. We have been doing a lot of PT at home too. Her tail has finally started to wag!! Her back right leg is very strong, when you stand her up she can hold herself up on it, the left one is not as good yet, but they said after accupuncture that there was some activity going on there! I still have to express her bladder, but it seems like the last couple times she has whined a little to let me know she needed to go...not sure about that thought. At least we are moving in the right direction!
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Post by Debby & Chloe on Feb 8, 2014 18:45:38 GMT -7
I haven't posted in awhile...I am starting to get discouraged..at her last accupuncture treatment, the therapist wasn't as positive. There had been no improvement from the week before and she confirmed that Chloe still has no deep pain. It has been almost 2 months since her surgery. Do you know is it possible for her to still walk with no DP? It just seems that lately whatever can go wrong has. She somehow managed to unlock the latch on the outside of her crate last week, 2 times she did this. I have no idea how, the 2nd time she did it I came home to find her with a very swollen nose from trying to get out. The next day I left her out, confined to 1 room and came home to find her belly all red and sore from crawling around! Any suggestions? I am getting so frustrated......
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Post by Pauliana on Feb 9, 2014 0:17:13 GMT -7
Hi Debby, Here are some tips: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/IncontinentDown.htmREGAINING NEUROLOGICAL FUNCTION has no time limit for nerves to heal. Nerve repair is individual as each injury is different and each dog’s ability to heal is different. If deep pain perception (DPP) is present, even in paralyzed legs, there is a chance your dog may be able to walk again. For those dogs who have lost DPP, do know nerve regeneration can take place and that function may return. Once deep pain perception is regained, your dog has a chance at a walking recovery. Thousands of dogs on Dodgerslist have regained functions in as little as 2 weeks, others 11 months, and still others 3 years later. IVDD is a disease of patience to allow the body to heal on its own terms. Acupuncture and Laser Therapy stimulate the cell’s metabolism that leads to the body’s natural repair abilities and it is great that Chloe is having acupuncture treatments.. Once nerves have repaired then muscles will also have to be retrained to relearn proper placement of the paws. Some muscles will need to regain strength for walking. Consider learning to walk again as it would be for a stroke victim or a baby learning to walk. At first, the steps will be weak and a bit unstable. Relearning to walk takes coordination, building up strength, and lots of patience. There is no timetable anyone can give you when to expect nerve repair to happen. In fact, there is no time limit for nerves to heal...it can take weeks to more like a year or even longer. However, it is known that neurological function usually returns in the reverse order of the damage. The first big sign you want to look for is that wonderful tail wag! 1. Deep Pain Sensation (Only correctly identified by a specialist.) 2. Tail wagging with joy at seeing you, getting a treat or due to your happy talk. 3. Bladder and bowel control proved by passing the "sniff and pee" test. Take your dog out to an old pee spot in the grass. Let him sniff and then observe for release of urine. 4. Leg movement, and then ability to move up into a standing position, and then wobbly walking. 5. Being able to walk with more steadiness and properly placed paws. 6. Ability to walk unassisted and perhaps even run.
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Marjorie
Moderator~
Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,724
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Post by Marjorie on Feb 9, 2014 7:59:50 GMT -7
Debby, you had mentioned before that Chloe was wagging her tail. Does she wag her tail when spoken to with a happy voice or when you walk into the room or when she's given treats? If so, then she would have to have deep pain sensation. With no deep pain sensation, there would be absolutely no movement at all.
Please know that my Jeremy had no movement in his legs for many weeks following surgery, no tail wag, just limp hind legs. It was a good 6 weeks before he had the slightest movement in his hind feet and months before his tail wagged. Yet 6 months following his surgery, he was walking again. And his walking continued to improve for over a year following surgery.
So hang in there and try to take it one day at a time. As Pauliana said, IVDD is a disease of patience.
Blessings to you both.
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Post by Debby & Chloe on Feb 9, 2014 16:50:51 GMT -7
When I take her out of her crate 1st thing in the morning and stand her up to potty her tail wags like crazy.Any time you stand her up it does wag a little but thats the only time, unless you squeeze on it a little, it will wag some then too. The therapist said that that was just reflexes, that she wasn't doing it on her own..both of her back legs will twitch a lot too and kick when you poke inside her toes, she also said that was all just reflex. I think that is why I got discouraged, I thought she was doing it herself...
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Marjorie
Moderator~
Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,724
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Post by Marjorie on Feb 10, 2014 7:35:36 GMT -7
Hopefully, when you speak to her in a happy voice or walk into the room in the coming days, you'll see that tail wagging and you'll know then that the nerves from the brain are connecting correctly and that tail wag is a true one! If she's wagging her tail when you first take her out of the crate and before you start to express her, that sounds like a true tail wag to me. Tail reflexes are usually seen when you press on the bladder to express or when they're pooping. Are you doing any PT with Chloe, Debby? Here's our page on exercises but be sure to run them by the surgeon before starting any of them: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/massagepassiveexercises.htmAlso water therapy can be very good, too, if you have that available to you. Some of these exercises can be done right in the bathtub, but again, check with the surgeon before starting. www.dodgerslist.com/literature/watertherapy.htmPrayers that you will soon see that tail wagging from happiness!
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Post by Debby & Chloe on Feb 10, 2014 20:27:32 GMT -7
Yes we are doing PT at home, the therapist gave us some to do, we try to do them 2 or 3 times a day, plus I spend a lot of time massaging and moving her legs and tail. She has talked about doing water therapy at some point, we do not have a bathtub at home, only a shower. It also looks like we will be getting Chloe measured for a cart in the next week or so. I was hoping we wouldn't need one, but it looks like her recovery will be slow, I want to help her get around a little better.And yes her tail does wag before I even begin to press on her bladder so I hope you are right about that!!
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Marjorie
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Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,724
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Post by Marjorie on Feb 11, 2014 6:59:53 GMT -7
If you have someplace in your home where you could set up a child's wading pool, that might be an option. There's just something about the buoyancy of the water, with their legs floating, that makes those legs want to move. Just check with the surgeon before trying any of the water therapy. Here's our page on what to look for when ordering a cart: www.dodgerslist.com/links/cart.htm
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Post by Debby & Chloe on Feb 16, 2014 20:15:51 GMT -7
At Chloes acupuncture session last week her therapist recommended getting a cart for her, so I did go online a couple days ago and ordered one. Hopefully I got all the measurements correct. I so hope she won't need it forever....I do agree though that it will help her out in the meantime, she will be so happy to go outside again and actually go for a walk!! Maybe that will make that tail wag!
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Post by Debby & Chloe on Mar 28, 2014 10:41:23 GMT -7
It has been just over 3 months now since Chloe had her surgery....and unfortunately not much has changed. Still no deep pain and not walking. I honestly don't know what we are going to do if her bladder function does not return. I don't know how people do this who work full time! I express her bladder at 7am every morning before I leave...I do it 2 or 3 times to make sure I am getting it all....I get home usually by 1pm and she always hops to the door when she hears me....leaving a trail of urine behind her. I have hardwood floors so its an easy clean up but they are going to be ruined if this keeps up. I can't keep her crated till I get home, when she was in one for her recovery she tried to get out every day and her nose ended up being swollen twice its size. I'm just getting so frustrated with all this. Summer is coming up and we like to go places where sometimes we are gone for most of the day, how do you do that now when she has to be expressed every few hrs?? I need to start working full time instead of part time like I do now but how do I leave her for 8 hrs when I can't even leave for 6?? We are doing everything we can. we've done the laser treatments, acupuncture, and we are now doing the treadmill in the water. I'm about at my wits end, I can't keep having urine on the floors every day, She also does not have a UTI at this time. Thanks..I just needed to vent.
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Marjorie
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Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,724
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Post by Marjorie on Mar 28, 2014 14:41:54 GMT -7
Hi, Debby. I'm sorry to hear there hasn't been much improvement since the surgery. I know you said she doesn't have deep pain sensation but sometimes that's hard to detect. Have you seen a tail wag when she's spoken to in a happy voice or given a treat? Any leg movement at all? I do understand the frustration about the incontinence. My Jeremy remains incontinent over two years after his surgery, though he did start walking again. Usually the bladder control comes back before the walking does but not in his case. Those first six months were very trying. Then things did get easier and we did get into a good routine for expressing. However, I'm lucky enough to work from home. Jeremy does need to be expressed every 3-4 hours to remain dry in between expressing. When I'm going to be gone for more than 5-6 hours, which isn't often (I never leave him more than 8 as you wouldn't leave any dog that needed to go out), I do use a belly band. Knowing my Jeremy, he stays in his bed the whole time I'm gone. Then as soon as he hears that door, he's coming to it and that's when he starts to go. He doesn't leak in his bed - just leaks when he stands up and starts moving towards the door. I open the door and take him right outside to be expressed. So his belly band isn't really that wet - just gets the bit of urine that he leaks as he walks to the door. It sounds as though that might be the same way for Chloe. We usually don't like to recommend diapers or belly bands because they can cause skin issues since the urine lies next to the skin. But sometimes they are needed. Be sure to leave the diaper off of her for a few hours a day to give her skin a chance to get some air - maybe even all night when she's sleeping. And use cooled down green tea to wash any urine on her belly or legs as green tea neutralizes the acidity of the urine and helps prevent urine burn and also leaves a nice scent. This is the brand that I use and like: www.kennelkomforts.com/ Since I use a belly band for Jeremy, I have no idea what the diapers for girls are like. This particular diaper is washable and you can buy disposable pads to use inside of them. I use either a sanitary pad or a small piece of microfiber towel inside of Jeremy's belly bands. The fabric used in this brand is thin so something is needed inside of them but I like the thinness as it's airy and light on him. Hope this helps.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,579
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Post by PaulaM on Mar 28, 2014 15:01:12 GMT -7
Debby, can you tell us a bit more where Chloe is re: neuro functions: -- can she move her legs at all on her own (exclusive of potty times)? Tell us about the water treadmill is she moving her legs during that PT? -- Specifically will she wag her tail if you do some happy talk to her or she see's a treat coming? We normally do not recommend diapers, etc due to rashes, but if one of these garments with a disposable pad like Always would help it is worth a try to reduce your floor clean up problems. tinkletrousers.com/ Tinkletrousers www.joybies.com/pagedog.html Piddle Pants peekeeper.com/ PeeKeeper When the bladder is full just the act of scooting and the muscles that tense up to do that also kinda press and express the bladder as she scoots with excitement to greet you at the door. --Have you tried an ex-pen at the expanded size maybe nearer the door, or gating off a part of the house that has a window for when you leave the house. Would she accept that? -- Keep a stack of cheap washcloths nearby cover her butt as you take her to express when returning home -- Put a little hand sprayer on a bottle of white vinegar. Spritz on a trail of urine to both disinfect and for a clean smell. -- Something like a Swiffer will make quick urine clean ups. I use a beefy wrung out washcloth to poke in the Swiffer's grippers. The washcloth will soak up a lot of moisture and in combo with the vinegar spritz, makes quick work of hardwood floors. On a day's outing is it possible to line up a vet tech to express Chloe? Perhaps if you have a responsible teen who you could train to express, you might hire them to babysit for a long summer day out. You might even want on some outings to have Chloe with you. How about a pet stroller to make that easier when her wheelchair is not enough? As for working an 8 hours day you mention "we"... is it possible to come home for lunch, to stagger work leaving/coming home times with other family members? Is there a neighbor who would consider learning to express to come over or Chloe stay their for the day for a fee? Three months is a relatively short time when dealing with nerve repair. We have seen dogs closer to a year still being able to self repair nerves. Please do come an vent here. A lot of us do work and we've all had to adapt our schedules a bit, think outside the box to care for a loved one. Hopefully other members will share their workarounds.
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Post by Debby & Chloe on Mar 28, 2014 20:14:45 GMT -7
Thanks for all the info...I was having a bad day. As far as tail wagging goes there is none with happy talk or treats. The only time it wags is if I squeeze on it, when I stand her up to express her, or 1st thing in the morning..at night I do put her in a crate to sleep, i don't want her scooting around at night, and she is fine with it, she sleeps well. 1st thing when I open the door to let her out, as she comes out I have seen her tail wag a few times. The only movement is her legs is all reflex I believe. She will kick them when you mess with her toes, she can stretch them out really well and they do move when she is in her cart. I do agree that the reason she leaks all over the floor when she hops to the door is because she is probably bouncing on her bladder, there are no accidents anywhere else in the house. Her bed is also always dry...she mostly sleeps while no one is home. I will look into the web sites that you listed above. As far as having someone else come and help with her when no one is home...they are all at work, both neighbors and family. So for now I will continue to work only part time and hope she gets better! The green tea you mentioned, is that just regular tea...that you drink? Thanks again!!
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Marjorie
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Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,724
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Post by Marjorie on Mar 29, 2014 5:54:00 GMT -7
Yes, just regular green tea bags. Make up a pot (I leave it steep for about 15 mins), let it cool down, wipe Chloe down with it. You can store the remaining tea in the fridge, warming it up a little for the next time. I use microfiber towels to wash and dry Jeremy with and to clean with. I don't know what I would have done without all my little microfiber towels from the Dollar Store - they's so absorbent and wash out so easily. I also use a Swiffer like Paula, only I use a microfiber towel. I use a wonderful product called Green Works, a concentrated cleaner. You just add a little to water and it lasts forever, very reasonable, and cleans very nicely. Found it in Home Depot. I wipe up the urine with a sponge, squirt with Green works from a spray bottle and then use the Swiffer. Better days ahead for you and Chloe.
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Post by Debby & Chloe on Mar 31, 2014 16:33:21 GMT -7
Can you tell me, is there any kind of a timeline on doing therapy..for instance acupuncture. Does it ever get to the point where you think if it hasn't worked by now it probably isn't going to? We are still doing it along with the water therapy,but after 3 months the money we are spending is getting out of hand with no results so far...thanks
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,579
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Post by PaulaM on Apr 1, 2014 9:52:42 GMT -7
During water treadmill therapy has there been any observation of legs moving on their own? If the answer is no, then I would try that therapy when there is some evidence of leg movement. If acupuncture or laser therapy is not in your budget right now, then wait and give it try it later on when there is a better fit in your budget. The body CAN repair nerves on their own and in their own time. Acupuncture and laser are to help to facilitate that process. Researchers say there needs to be at least 10% of the descending axons intact for locomotion, for bladder control to return. There is no way to tell how near Chloe is, how much more dendrite (nerve ending) growth is needed. So we just don't give up hope, we give our dog's time to do nerve healing. In the mean time it sounds like she has a zest for life and exuberance in greeting you. Being out of pain and enjoying life is a good thing! Stay in touch.
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Post by Debby & Chloe on Apr 1, 2014 16:13:52 GMT -7
OK..thanks! When she is doing the water therapy they help her to get her legs moving and then yes, she will move them on her own. She doesn't like it in there though so she does get easily distracted..she is very stubborn! We are going to keep working to get her better, we may just cut back from twice a week to once. We don't have a bathtub, only a shower so we are thinking of buying a good sized rubbermaid tote so we can at least get her in the water here at home also. Thanks!
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,579
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Post by PaulaM on Apr 2, 2014 7:39:17 GMT -7
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Melissa & Deucy
New Member
Our sweet, precious girl…fight on, Deucy!
Posts: 51
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Post by Melissa & Deucy on Apr 9, 2014 19:21:34 GMT -7
I just wanted to tell you to " hang in there" …our Deucy is recovering from her surgery, and she has progressed well…but, today I was feeling down, and thinking of the old times..when she could walk. It is very hard, stressful, and I just want you to know that I was thinking of you. We are grateful for her progress, and I worry that this is as far as she will go…hopping around….but, then I read the posts from the ladies and I feel a little better. Hugs to you..stay strong
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Post by Debby & Chloe on May 19, 2014 18:34:03 GMT -7
I have not left any updates lately on Chloe, she is still the same. Not walking yet and still no bladder control. I do have some good news though, Chloe has been accepted into the program at Iowa State..the Clinical Trial for Paralyzed dogs. She just finished her 1st week there, next month she will go back for week 2. We don't know yet if she received the shot or not, they don't tell you till the end of the 6 months, but we are keeping our fingers crossed! I will let you know how she does each month!!
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,579
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Post by PaulaM on May 19, 2014 19:54:28 GMT -7
Wonderful news. Do let us know how the monthly visits go. We are very interested in that trial!
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