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Post by Emma & Puds on May 13, 2015 14:53:57 GMT -7
Hello everyone, just popped on for some advise and to share others experiences...
I am Emma and my dog is Pudding, a 17kg crossbreed, best guesses are JRT x collie x staffie and she is 10.
Pudding started out with a bad eye, which was horners syndrome and she started to develop muscle wastage on once side of her face, and a head and neck MRI was going to be scheduled as tests indicated spine or probably brain issue. Around this time she started to go lame on front left leg, and ended up often sitting holding it in the air and regular vet confirmed it was likely to be something neurological she did not appear to be in any pain.
We booked in for the MRI where they found 2 things, a tumour of the 5th cranial nerve (trimeningal) and IVDD in the C7-T1 disc. The tumour the specialist advised was very slow growing and the IVDD was her most immediate problem,the specialist advised that if we could get her spine sorted would improve her life considerably.
She stayed in at the vets overnight and after 24 hours complete rest her leg seemed alot better and the vet wanted to treat conservatively esp. considering her other condition and wanted to work out what would give her best quality of life.
She started metronomic chemotherapy and conservative treatment and all seemed to be going well - with this type of chemo its a very low dose every day to cut off the blood supply/ life support for the tumour and has very few side effects and is tolerated extremely well - she was soon quite perky and back to her normal self.
All was well and then she had a relapse of the IVDD, this time she was really lame/ paralyzed on her front right leg and in alot of pain. We got her straight back to the vets and they wanted to try and avoid operating but after another 10 days of rest (where she seemed to stop being in pain, just kept the paralysis)they decided to operate,and that her prognosis on the tumour (incurable but very slow growing and latest MRI shows its shrunk in size).. so although not ideal it would hopefully get her the best recovery.
She had the surgery on Friday to clean up the disc stuff that was compressing the nerves and was doing really well on Friday and Saturday (sure the vet said that she was standing up) but since Sunday she hasn't had much use in her back legs. She was due to come home on Monday but is still at the doggy hospital.
I don't know much about what meds she is on, know she has been having some physio - her specialist is back in on Friday and will re-assess her then. I understand that due to swelling and bruising things can get worse before they get better?
We are just worried for her although I know there is great success with this type of operation just needs time, and suppose its more radical to operate on a dog in her condition, but I trust the specialists she is under, and have been guided by them
I've been here before with my last staffie who ran into a post and exploded his C2-C3 disc and was completely paralysed, we had to turn him every two hours and catherterise him, do physio and nurse him back to health, he returned to a pretty normal life, although was always wonky.
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PaulaM
Moderator. 
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,549
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Post by PaulaM on May 13, 2015 15:24:57 GMT -7
Emma glad to see you were able to join us here. Sorry to hear about all of Pudding's health issues. Sounds like you have a good specialist treating it all. The criteria normally to be discharged home is that pain is fully in control with oral pain meds. Nerve healing to bring back bladder control or leg function can be a matter of weeks but more often we ought to think in terms months. Nerves are the slowest part of the body to heal. So if Pudding does not have bladder control, your surgeon would give you a hands on top of your hands expressing lesson. If Puds does not yet have bladder control, you will get more out of the lesson by first reviewing this video and the tips: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/Expressing.htmPudding has had a major surgery, and swelling caused by the surgery itself is expected causing some temporary set back. Normally the swelling does subside over the course of about 2 weeks. This page will help you understand the typical order that nerve function returns in. However, no one can tell you a time line...have to wait to see what Pudding's body will do. www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingnerves.htmI bet you have a lot of things swimming through your head. It would be a good idea to jot down your questions so that on discharge day everything gets an answer. Here's a starter list of questions to which you can add some of your concerns: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/dischargequestions.htmGood reading that can answer some post-op questions or give you an idea of what you want to know more about: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/surgery.htmDo you have the recovery suite set up? Need some tips on supplies and ideas to make the crate rest period go smoother? Check out the pink box to the far right for lots of excellent information: www.dodgerslist.com/literature.htmPlease do keep us updated on your Pudding and don't hesitate if anything comes to mind you want to talk about. |
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Post by Emma & Puds on May 14, 2015 11:51:02 GMT -7
Puddings front end is ok today but still not much at the back
Am waiting for the specialist tomorrow to see if we can bring her home or she stays until Monday
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Post by Debbie Blackwelder on May 14, 2015 15:19:21 GMT -7
Hello Emma, sorry to hear you and Puddings is going through all of this and extra sorry that this is your second incident with IVDD. We will be here to help and support you through the IVDD part. Please update us tomorrow, if you can, on her condition and if you get to bring her home. Print out the discharge questions that Paula gave you the link on, they will be helpful for you to know all the answers later on. Remember you are in charge of Puddings health care so read all you can and be ready if you need to advocate on her behalf.
My pups have had three IVDD surgeries so I know exactly how you feel, hang in there.
Sincerely, Debbie |
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Post by Emma & Puds on May 17, 2015 1:53:38 GMT -7
She is home she is not very happy poor girl
She is on pardale-v - 3 times a day she was on different meds there at first but she had quite a bad upset tum so they changed them they didnt send her home with enough and my vets don't stock them which is a pain so seeing if she can have something else although you can buy meds of a very similar dosage over the counter here (
[17kg- 37 lbs]
400 mg paracetamol [acetaminophen-Tylenol] and
9mg coedine is the pardale dose) the specialist is confirming
She isn't eating much can temp her with cocktail sausages to get her meds into her and she will pick at chicken will drink when offered just sleeping and doesn't want to interact I did get a tail wag when I got back from walking my other dogs
She is peeing and pooing on her own outside supported by the towel and harness but still won't sit or stand up on her own
Gentle physio is just massaging her back legs and tickling between her back toes and when she stands making sure her feet are placed correctly if knuckled and if she is standing gentle sway her back end just to help with balance
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Post by Debbie Blackwelder on May 17, 2015 9:22:51 GMT -7
Hello Emma, glad Pudding is home. Please let us know when you get the medications worked out. So she is only on one medication? I see where the pardale-v is an arthritis medication, did your surgeon not prescribe any pain medication? Is Puddiings in pain? If she is you need to get something done today.
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Post by Emma & Puds on May 17, 2015 9:35:10 GMT -7
That is all they prescribed but as we run out I want to see if she can go back onto her metacam tomorrow it does seem strange that compared to others she only has one med we also have tramadol here
They said she was not likely to be in pain they do a lot of these ops and said that was normal
She is not in obvious pain she is happy to be handled but quiet in herself she naturally is a quiet dog and sleeps a lot before she was ill she doesn't interact much atm and not got a huge appetite though but no crying g or tucked up
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,549
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Post by PaulaM on May 17, 2015 13:25:32 GMT -7
Emma, paracetamol is a non-acidic NSAID acetaminophen (brand name Tylenol) . Glad to hear you ARE working very closely with your vets with the pardale-v A little Googling explains why we rarely see this med prescribed for dogs on the Forum: www.vetinfo.com/how-safe-is-paracetamol-for-dogs.html Has Pudding had a recent blood test to verify the health of organs such as liver? You know Puds best, if you are seeing signs of pain, then different pain meds can be prescribed. |
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Post by Emma & Puds on May 17, 2015 23:25:27 GMT -7
She had a full blood test about three weeks ago which was fine
She has only gone onto the pardale post surgery as they said other meds were upsetting her tummy and giving her the bad runs I think they still had her on the metal am [metacam] which she has been on for ages so think upset tum was stress or op related not sure what else she was on whilst there
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Post by Debbie Blackwelder on May 18, 2015 5:49:13 GMT -7
Any time you give an NSAID or Steroid to Puddings then you need to give a stomach medication, acid suppressor. The medication we prefer here in the states is Pepcid AC. I just wanted to share this with you for future use. When taking any NSAID or Steroid, it is necessary to protect the stomach lining although some vets are not proactive about that. The FDA and manufacturer pkg insert indicate gastrointestinal problems are side effects of using NSAID's or Steroids. The natural defenses of the stomach to shield against stomach acid is hindered when taking NSAID's or Steroids. Serious gastrointestinal toxicity such as bleeding, ulceration, and perforation, can occur at any time, with or without warning symptoms. Phrase the question to your vet this particular way:" Is there a medical/health reason for my dog not take Pepcid?" (Famotidine is the generic name..)
Here are a few questions we normally ask when you post first on Dodgerslist, but in your situation Puddings was not home when you first posted:
▷ Are you now doing 100% STRICT crate rest 24/7 only out to potty? No laps, no couch, no sleeping in bed with you, no meandering, scooting or dragging around during potty times. What did your surgeon direct for post-op crate rest?
▷ Signs of pain are: shivering, trembling, yelping when picked up or moved, reluctant to move much or slow to move, tight tense tummy? Keep an eye on these signs and notify your surgeon asap if you see any of them.
▷ Currently can your dog wobbly walk? move the legs at all? or wag the tail when you do some happy talk? You stated, she still won't sit or stand up on her own and you got a tail wag after walking your other dogs.
▷ Can your dog specifically sniff and squat and then release urine or do you find wet bedding or leaks on you when lifted up? You stated, She is peeing and pooing on her own outside supported by the towel and harness.
▷ Eating and drinking OK? Poops OK - normal firmness & color -no dark or bright red blood? You stated, She isn't eating much can temp her with cocktail sausages to get her meds into her and she will pick at chicken will drink when offered.
▷ If there is pain or neuro diminishment, dogs can benefit greatly with acupuncture or laser light therapy. These therapies can be started right away to help relieve pain and to also to kick start energy production in nerve cells to sprout. So if this therapy is in your budget, seek out a holistic vet.
Chiropractic is not recommended for IVDD dogs (aka VOM)!
Hope today finds you and Puddings doing well and look forward to hearing your next update. Deb
So the whole family knows what things are emergencies tape this flyer to your fridge : www.dodgerslist.com/literature/FridgeInfo81907.pdf
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Post by Emma & Puds on May 18, 2015 12:29:39 GMT -7
She had a full blood test about three weeks ago which was fine
She has only gone onto the pardale post surgery as they said other meds were upsetting her tummy and giving her the bad runs I think they still had her on the metal am which she has been on for ages so think upset tum was stress or op related not sure what else she was on whilst there
Will reply properly when on the laptop but the vet has said strict crate rest until our 4 week check up and would assume would get our next instruction then presumably the same it's what I would expect from research because the vets is 50 miles away we can go back there for stitches out if progressing nicely she will go back to out regular vets on Friday will be 2 weeks
She is back on tramadol and metacam and I noticed a marked difference in her tonight will find out re the stomach meds she is bright eyed alert and even sat up on her own tail was wagging and she wanted to interact and a fuss
She can't walk today is the first time she has sat up unaided one leg the one she was paralysed on before will slide out
She has full bladder and bowel control and with the harness support is happy to pee and poo in the garden
Let me read back to see what missed in that answer
Tonight was the first time she also was keen for her tea she happily ate the wet dog food mixed in with a bit of chicken and sausage
No upset tum either
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,549
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Post by PaulaM on May 18, 2015 12:42:57 GMT -7
Emma, any NSAID, even metacam can cause adverse sudden GI upset. Do get a call in to verify Puds has no health issue to keep her from Pepcid AC (famotidine)
Glad to hear metacam and tramadol are making the difference in pain control. Good job in advocating for increased pain control!!
So we can follow better please look at the meds list and correct it to what is current:
[17kg- 37 lbs]
pardale-v ( paracetamol (acetaminophen-Tylenol) +9mg coedine) 400 mg 3x/day
Tramadol ?mg ?x/day
Metacam ?mgs or ml ?x/day
Pepcid AC ?mgs 2x/day for optimal stomach protection
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Post by Emma & Puds on May 20, 2015 15:26:45 GMT -7
Sorry for delay she is no longer on the pardale and peptic to talk to the vets about on Friday when stitches out
[17kg- 37 lbs]
50mg tramadol twice a day
Metacam: [17kg dog dose once a day ]
I am not sure out vets has a syringe that has weights in kg marked on it so measure out the recommended dose for a 17kg dog once a day will work it out in ml tomorrow
She will sit up now when has incentive too ie one of us gets home or dinner is incoming her previously paralysed front leg will slide out slightly
Still not much going on with the back legs is it still normal nearly two weeks after considering her back legs were perfectly fine pre op?
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,549
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Post by PaulaM on May 20, 2015 15:47:06 GMT -7
So sorry to hear a phone call was not made in to verify about getting Pepcid AC (famotidine) on board during the use of Metacam. Can you call today and get the ok on Pepcid AC? Pepcid is only available via prescription in the UK so you would need to ask for one from the vet. Ranitidine, a different acid reducer, is available over the counter at the chemist there in the UK. Doses: www.petplace.com/drug-library/ranitidine-hcl-zantac/page1.aspx and www.1800petmeds.com/Ranitidine-prod11204.htmlIt is hard to have patience, but that we must have when dealing with nerve healing. It is still very early and with there being bladder control, the next neuro function to be expected is to see some leg movement such as reposition herself in the crate or trying to move up into a standing position. Once the stitches are out on Friday discuss water therapy with the surgeon. Underwater treadmill can do much to expedite learning to walk again. Also you can do water therapy at home www.dodgerslist.com/literature/watertherapy.htm |
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Post by Emma & Puds on May 21, 2015 0:39:52 GMT -7
I've asked about the stomach meds and they said will discuss at app tomorrow they were not so keen to dispense without seeing her esp as she had an appointment a few days later I will take it from there after that need to also make sure it's ok to take with her chemo meds
What is the long term thoughts on it as have known many dogs over here on long term nsaids and pain killers and not heard of any being prescribed stomach meds too wonder why doesn't seem popular with our vets
I know from my last boy re the nerves but he was completely paralysed those nerves that affected her back legs were fine pre surgery could all this post surgery issues be caused by swelling and surgery trauma stuff still after 14 days? I guess they must be
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Post by Debbie Blackwelder on May 21, 2015 7:44:46 GMT -7
Emma, When taking any NSAID or Steroid, it is necessary to protect the stomach lining although some vets are not proactive about that. The FDA and manufacturer pkg insert indicate gastrointestinal problems are side effects of using NSAID's or Steroid's. The natural defenses of the stomach to shield against stomach acid is hindered when taking NSAID's or Steroid's. Serious gastrointestinal toxicity such as bleeding, ulceration, and perforation, can occur at any time, with or without warning symptoms. Phrase the question to your vet this particular way:" Is there a medical/health reason for my dog not take Pepcid?" If there is no reason, we follow vets who are proactive in stomach protection by giving doxies Pepcid AC (famotidine) 30 minutes before the NSAID and every 12 hours thereafter. Stomach Protectors: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/drugs.htm#intestinaldrugsPepcid AC: www.marvistavet.com/html/famotidine.htmlwww.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&A=620&S=1 Hope that answer's your question about the Pepcid AC, it is basically good insurance to have on board. As far as the chemo meds and Pepcid AC goes, on the interactions, that is a great question for your vet. |
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Post by Emma & Puds on May 21, 2015 11:54:13 GMT -7
Had a quick chat with the vet nurse she said it was unusual for a dog to go off her back legs like that especially after cervical surgery
I'm having a chat with the specialist tomorrow but it's the normal vet we are at for stitches
I've noticed today when she has the sling on and you stand her up she is placing her hind feet better and in the right way which is another little step in the right direction not noticed her knuckle today
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Post by Emma & Puds on Jun 9, 2015 5:28:49 GMT -7
Sorry for the delay in getting back....
I asked the specialist about the stomach meds and they said they don't prescribe them as routine as its rare for something to happen then they would deal with it then - I asked if it was possible and they needed to cross check with chemo meds. THey didn't seem keen on the idea (seems strange as most others on here seem to have them prescribed by default). She is only on the metacam for 2 more weeks so then at least I won't have that to worry about.
She had her 4 week check up on Friday - to me she still looks in a poorly way but he was really pleased with her.
She is happy and normal in herself, sleeps alot but she has always been a chilled lazy at home dog, who is happy to snooze in the sunny spot. She tried to play with one of our other dogs the other day (didn't let her of course).
She is allowed more time out the crate under supervision (we have moved the sofa's out the way anyway and we are sitting at floor level too to avoid any risk). PT is sitting to standing and repeat, and he says she is allowed to walk a little bit further, than being carried to toiletting place and back. he says can do a bit of walking without the sling which she can do, but have to be careful as her back end tends to rush whic makes her go sideways.
Appetite and toiletting are fine
She can start swimming next week as well.
He is confident she will make a full recovery, she still seems quite weak and very wobbly - can't imagine her being well enough to go for a walk but I know its slow and steady.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,549
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Post by PaulaM on Jun 9, 2015 7:29:06 GMT -7
Emma, very good progress in feeling like her old self and good on the slowly increasing her walk time.
Besure to give Metacam with a meal.
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Post by Emma & Puds on Aug 22, 2015 2:04:35 GMT -7
Hello again so sorry for the delay in updating. Pudding has been doing well she can walk for about twenty mins and did the stairs (going up) on her own for the first time this week with me carefully following behind) there's no way she is ready for coming down! Her back leg's are still wonky and weak she does pant alot when walking not sure if it's the effort ? She loves her walks though and getting out and about and is very happy and alert in herself and her tumour doesn't seem to have advanced much |
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,549
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Post by PaulaM on Aug 22, 2015 9:27:39 GMT -7
What wonderful news on the walking!!!! Stairs are problematic for an IVDD dog as it causes increased opportunity for the spine to be flexed and extended. Each time a dog jumps up on the bed, jumps for the ball, or jumps into the back of the SUV, the spine is flexed and then acutely extended, putting increased forces at the low cervical, mid-thoracic, and especially lower lumbar spine. These recurring stresses can result in chronic fatigue and microscopic damage to the IVD. Scot Swainson, DVM, ACVS Surgeon Colorado Canine Orthopedics Here are some ideas to make your home back friendly: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/protectback.htmThis is a discussion on the Graduate board of this forum for more ideas on making or getting ramps: dodgerslist.boards.net/thread/867/rampsWould you consider helping another member, one just learning their dog has IVDD and starting what seems to be a dark journey? Puddng's story is such inspiration! Can you add a JPG to our Gallery along with a couple of sentences of hope? Directions here: dodgerslist.boards.net/thread/2262/put-dodgerslist-photo-gallery-calendar |
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Post by Emma & Puds on Aug 29, 2015 10:41:58 GMT -7
I've posted the piccie but managed to get it on sideways! not sure if an admin on the page can rotate it, heres the original piccie...  Will look at the links do you think stairs are a big no going forward? She also pants alot when out walking, I don't think its pain am wondering if its effort - will try to grab a video clip of her walking |
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,549
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Post by PaulaM on Aug 29, 2015 15:07:29 GMT -7
Thanks for the picture, it's been turned. I would avoid definately stairs and jumping up or down for Pudding and instead use ramps.
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Post by Emma & Puds on Aug 31, 2015 2:20:11 GMT -7
Hello again - I think you have updated my avatar piccie thank you! I just wanted to check if any experiences with the panting?
She does not pant when she swims, she has been going once a week, but dropping down to fortnightly now and she is a brilliant swimmer, very strong in the water.
She is still on metacam as part of her chemo meds (cyclophosphamadie and metacam)which would cover pain relief (?) and is always keen to go out and do more on walks. I can ask our vets but not due to see them for a little while yet.
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Marjorie
Moderator~ 
Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,724 
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Post by Marjorie on Aug 31, 2015 3:58:06 GMT -7
Hi, Emma. If you're concerned about the panting, I would give your vets a call and run it by them. Meds can cause panting so it's best to be prudent and check with the vet. Dr. Isaacs, DVM, ACVIM (neurology) discusses with Dodgerslist what we want to know about when our dogs are on IVDD medications. Metacam is a NSAID so read the section concerning that. I'm not familiar with cyclophosphamadie. www.dodgerslist.com/neurocorner2/panting.htmMetacam is an anti-inflammatory, not a pain med, but does help pain in that it reduces inflammation. Pudding shouldn't have any pain from the surgery at this point. Are you referring to possible pain from the tumor? As for any future disc problems, Metacam could mask some of the pain that would let you know that another disc is acting up. Panting can be a sign of pain, though shivering, yelping, reluctant to move, arched back, etc. are more what we see with IVDD. Please let us know what the vet says about the panting. |
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Post by Emma & Puds on Aug 31, 2015 7:05:10 GMT -7
I will call the vet tomorrow to ask we are in a bank holiday my here in the UK thanks for the info have had a read.
Can I ask another question to the daxie experts here.. my mum has a daxie x maybe with a pug? Looks like a mini rottie with a daxie long body. Anyway he sometimes sleeps laying down with his front legs in the spinx type position head down and eyes shut but his back leg's are partially standing and so not fully flat I do wonder if his back plays him up is this something have seen before? I do urge mum to be careful with him not letting jump etc due to his shape
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,549
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Post by PaulaM on Aug 31, 2015 9:23:40 GMT -7
Emma, the signs you mom would watch for, be suspicious if a disc problem are in this graphic.  |
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