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Post by Cheryl & Tucker on Apr 9, 2015 13:43:41 GMT -7
Hi I am Cheryl, and my Dachshund's name is Tucker. He will be 4 yrs next month. Recently noticed that Tucker was not himself, normally he is full of pee and vinegar. Came home Tueasday April 7th, was sitting in my living room and herd him yelp. Went to my daughters bedroom where I found him sitting on the floor by her bed. Her bed is a platform bed, not high, so I am assuming he tried to get up and hurt himself. Immediately took him out for a potty, because I could smell that he needed to go. Then I crated him right away, and gave him a little Metacam with his supper. Phoned vet and got an appointment for today, Thursday April 9th. He has pretty much been crated or penned since Tuesday.
My Vet is a Gen. DVM, she looked at Tucker today. He is walking, urinating, eating,(still does a little food dance, luvs to eat) wags his tail when he is happy, but also when he tries to go potty. It's when he goes potty that you can tell he is not himself. He is just a little unconfortable around his mid back. He weighs 15 lbs, not fat, but she said she would like him to lose a pound. Does not cry when you pick him up.
He had a laser treatment this morning and was prescribed
[15 lbs]
Metacam, 6kg dose, (12 drops).
I am very familiar with Metacam as I have an Australian Sheppard cross who has been on it for years because of arthritis. He is on restricted rest, for at least the next two weeks, when I will go back for a re-check, but she said he does not need to be kennelled 24/7, He can be confined to the kitchen area. But mostly he just lays on his bed. He only shakes when you pick him up to take him outside for potty breaks.
I guess my main questions, is this being aggressive enough, and can he sleep with me on my memory foam bed at night? Another thing I am wondering is once he is better, can will still play fetch with him? Tucker is the kind of dog that goes full out when he is playing. He thinks he is invincible. I have another Dachshund Oscar and he has a bowed back leg, so he knows his limitations, and plays and runs accordingly, believe it or not!! |
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Marjorie
Moderator~ 
Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,724 
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Post by Marjorie on Apr 9, 2015 16:23:12 GMT -7
Welcome to Dodgerslist, Cheryl. Tucker needs pain meds. Shaking when you pick him up is a sign of pain. He also appears to be having pain when he goes potty. Please contact your vet ASAP, advise of the signs of pain you're seeing and advocate strongly for pain meds. Here is more information on the pain meds used with IVDD: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingpain.htmConservative care requires strict crate rest - 100% 24/7 - only carried in and out to potty and then back in the crate. Think of the crate as a cast for the spine. Any time out of the crate is a dangerous time for a dog having an IVDD episode. No laps, no couch, no sleeping in bed with you, no meandering, scooting or dragging around during potty times. No baths, no chiro (aka VOM). We have seen dogs far too often do the unexpected and injure themselves more. The movement of the spine must be restricted. Too much movement and the spine can tear more, causing nerve damage, even paralysis. Please include the all-important stomach protector such as Pepcid AC. Phrase the question to your vet this particular way:" Is there a medical/health reason for my dog not to take Pepcid?" If there is no reason, we follow vets who are proactive against not eating, vomiting, diarrhea, bleeding ulcers by giving doxie weight dogs 5mg Pepcid (famotidine) 30 minutes before the anti-inflammatory. With this disease self-education is critical not just so you make sure the right things are being done for the best recovery but for your own emotions. The goal of our Forum is to support you, to teach you how to look up things at the original source point (a credible and authoritative resource), question everything and read so you become the most important part of your dog's health care team. Good place to start your self education: www.dodgerslist.com/healingindex.htmAs far as after the 8 full weeks of crate rest and what he'll be allowed to do, Tucker will need to gradually build up his stamina and strength again so re-introduction to movement is done gradually. You can take a look at #8 on this page to see what activities are never again and what will be allowed: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/AfterCrateRest.htmPlease let us know what the vet says after speaking to them about pain meds and Pepcid AC. Healing prayers for Tucker. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2015 23:33:49 GMT -7
You will need to limit really boisterous activities for the rest of his life. That does not mean when the crate rest is over and he has been slowly reintroduced to other activities that he cannot play and have fun, but you need to be conscious of what you are doing. The way many dogs lunge at balls has a really acute impact on the spine, with sudden stopping and that would be actively discouraged from all specialists. Jumping is another activity that needs to be curtailed. With time you will be able to find other games and activities that you can play with him and that he will learn to love just as much. There are plenty of great books out there with ideas for such thing, but your imagination is really the only limitation.
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Post by Cheryl & Tucker on Apr 10, 2015 6:39:16 GMT -7
Have called the vet, waiting to hear about the pepcid Ac. Tucker does not seem to be in any pain. He wags his tail when you talk to him, he is somewhat content in his kennel, doesn't whine or cry, but seems depressed and mainly sleeps.Is it okay to give him a knuckle bone or something else to chew on while kenneled, something to keep him a little busy?
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PaulaM
Moderator. 
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,548
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Post by PaulaM on Apr 10, 2015 7:39:32 GMT -7
Cheryl, then he is no longer shaking when you pick him up? Is he his same perky self as before. Just sleeping not interested in life, not moving much can well be signs of pain. Metacam is not a pain reliever, it is an anti-inflammatory drug which can take anywhere from 7-30 days to get all the swelling down. While that is happening pain is control by using pain medications to mask pain. When one is dealing with a painful disease, one ought to assume there will be pain especially when you observe any sign of pain: shivering, trembling, yelping when picked up or moved, reluctant to move much in crate such as shift positions or slow to move, tight tense tummy, can't find a comfortable position, Arched back. Holding leg flamingo style not wanting to bear weight, head held high or nose to the ground. Not their normal perky selves.
The focus is on limited movement of the neck and back for 8 weeks to let the disc heal. Few dogs will gently use only jaw action on bones and other chew toys. Some ideas -- Many members have found a pet stroller to wheel from room to room as you go about your activities. Pet strollers, however, should only be used when you are directly supervising. More details on strollers: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/strollers.htm-- Put a garment you have been wearing and have not washed in the recovery suite. -- Spend some time wearing your dog out with mental stimulation with tricks that do not make the back move such a nose touch to a paw or a food bowl. Of course the training takes place inside the crate. -- At night, try placing the crate on a sturdy bedside table to sleep next to you. -- During the day try the coffee table or the dinning room table so there will be a view out a window and a better perspective on what is going on in the house from a high. -- Make the crate or ex-pen more cozy by draping a blanket over part of the top. Play classical music or one of the wildlife TV shows. -- Most dogs need some 16-18 hours of sleep per day, people sleep 8-9 hours day. What are they doing in the crate? Laying around and sleeping! Don't give into the temptation to start a treat routine to combat non-existent boredom. What you CAN do is soak his kibble in broth and freeze each of his normal kibble portion into a Kong so he has a job... licking and working for his food |
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Post by Cheryl & Tucker on Apr 10, 2015 12:51:54 GMT -7
Okay I just got back from my vet. Tucker had another laser treatment, and now has [15 lbs] Tramadol, 1/2 of a 25mg tablet every 8 hours, so 12.5 mg every 8 hours. Also the vet said I could give Famotidine half a tablet of 10 mg an hour before his meal which is when I give him his metacam [6kg dose -12 drops]He is now laying in the sun in his crate. Will give his first dose of Tramadol at 4pm. He wags his tail and gives kisses when you open the crate and talk to him. I will let you know if the shaking stops when I take him out for his next potty breaks. He is a nervous dog to start, and I think allot of the being out of routine is throwing him for a loop! His brother Oscar is sleeping in front of the crate, also wondering why he can't play with his best bud.. Very Sad  I have two kennels set up for him, a bigger one in my living room, for day time, and a smaller one for evening and sleeping in my room. His previous owner kenneled him allot, because she worked two jobs, so he is use to the kennel and really does not complain at all. I think he is doing well, and am hoping for a good outcome. |
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,548
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Post by PaulaM on Apr 10, 2015 16:08:51 GMT -7
Cheryl, good job on advocating for a pain med and also the stomach protector. Hope to hear no more shaking, not moving much, not interested in life moving to his old perky self. Let us know what you observe.
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Post by Cheryl & Tucker on Apr 11, 2015 8:31:55 GMT -7
Tucker seems much more comfortable now. Shaking has resolved, and he is himself. Only whining when he hears me preparing his meal.(luvs to eat) He is eating well, drinking, good bowel movements, urinating. He wags his tail and gives lots of kisses when you talk to him in his kennel. He walks normally when outside for potty breaks, even lifts a leg at times to pee. I think he feels he is good to go. I know I caught this very early, of that I am glad. He really wants to engage and play, which I know he can't, so I spend some time with my head in his kennel, giving him positive praise. He is such a cute little guy, it"s hard not to feel sympathetic towards such limitations on him.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,548
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Post by PaulaM on Apr 11, 2015 11:29:55 GMT -7
Cheryl, very wonderful report to hear pain is now fully in control as it should be!! Catching a disc episode early is how we learn to live with this disease.... keep the symptoms mild by STRICT rest in order to avoid a surgery.
You are right, now the challenge of keeping limited movement of the back begins. Cause Tucker has no understanding that while he feels no pain due to meds, that does not mean his disc has completed healing. Disc healing will take the full 8 weeks of rest.
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Post by Cheryl & Tucker on Apr 11, 2015 12:53:43 GMT -7
Was wondering if Glucosamine, Chondroitin, MSM would be okay to give to Tucker while he is on all these other meds. I give this human supplement to my Aussie, or should I wait?
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,548
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Post by PaulaM on Apr 11, 2015 13:10:40 GMT -7
While taking an anti-inflammatory we think it best not bring supplements on board or change foods so there is no confusion as to the culprit and action to take if you would see any signs of GI upset (nausea, not wanting to eat, vomit, diarrhea.) This article on IVDD supplements may be of interest to you in regards to what can pass the blood brain barrier to access the spine and discs. www.dodgerslist.com/literature/Supplements.htm |
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Post by Cheryl & Tucker on Apr 11, 2015 16:29:49 GMT -7
I have a few more question, hope that's alright. Seeing that Tucker is a Dachshund, and we all know how Dachshunds love to burrow, is it okay that he has a loose blanket in his crate? I think without it he would be miserable. He only wants to sleep covered up, otherwise he is too attentive to everyting around him. Also I was wondering, now that here in Ontario we may get some nice sun and a little heat if it is okay to take him outside in his crate while myself and my other dogs are out doing yard work? Also, what about loss of muscle and coordination due to no activity. Is there something I should be doing to avoid this? Worried about that too! I was feeling really bad this afternoon, thinking about how this was my fault, knowing what I know about the bread I should have been more restrictive with him. Then I read your post about living with the fear of IVDD and I felt a little better. I blame myself. I feel that I have let this poor little soul down.
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Post by Pauliana on Apr 11, 2015 20:27:19 GMT -7
Hi Cheryl! Yes indeed they do love to burrow under their blankets and that is perfectly ok. It would be great therapy to take him outside in his crate to enjoy the sunshine while you are outside gardening and can keep an eye on him.. The forcus on the 8 weeks of crate rest is for the disc to heal. The muscle tone will come back when he GRADUALLY returns to activity after crate rest is over. Muscle tone comes back quickly and it really isn't a major concern... I saw my Tyler's muscle tone come back when he got off crate rest and he built up his stamina with very short walks to begin with. You haven't let him down, you are giving him the best of nursing care and being his voice in advocating for him with your Vet.  |
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Post by Cheryl & Tucker on Apr 12, 2015 5:55:35 GMT -7
Tucker is doing well this morning. Shows lots of interest of things going on around him. Unfortunately that makes him unhappy, because Oscar gets to play with toys, and he doesn't. He is sleeping very well at night, no whinning, no fussing. This is mostly the case in his daytime kennel too. Had a good bowel movement this morning, but did not pee. Seems more interested in smelling around. I guess he is not stupid, and figures if he get more time out and about this way. Unfortunately, Mommy only let this go on for so long, then back in the crate, so I will have to take him back out in an hour or so to make sure he pees. He walks well when out, only notice a little involuntary tail wag as he prepares to have a bowl movement, or when he gives a stretch shake. Today I am hoping we can all spend time outside. Nothing like fresh air and gardening, and sunshine. My little guys love to sunbathe! Typical Doxie's.
I want to Thank You all for your support, yesterday was a very emotional day for me. I had a few good cries. I am probably finding this harder then Tucker. My daughter wanted to come home from University to study for the week, and I told her to stay there, knowing that this would hinder Tuckers recooperation, because the house would be more busy. I have the 3 dogs, and 3 cats. There is never a dull moment here as it is, and everyone has spring fever!!
Hope you all have a good day.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,548
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Post by PaulaM on Apr 12, 2015 9:29:32 GMT -7
Cheryl, so good to hear continued good direction of healing with pain fully in control. Tucker is showing that he is a good candidate to heal with conservative treatment and the find advocating you are able to do when necessary. Good job in watching over and caring for Tucker!
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Post by Cheryl & Tucker on Apr 13, 2015 5:28:02 GMT -7
Tucker spent a good 2 hours outside in his kennel yesterday. He is very alert and wanting to go go go. He slept well last night, and during his potty break this morning, he was starting to kick up grass, so I kind of discouraged him not to because I am afraid he will hurt himself. When out for potty breaks he wants to go. He even tries to get a little hop/spring in his steps, like he wants to run, but being on the lead, I once again tell him no, and he is doing this like 7 hours after his dose of tramadol, which leads me to believe he has very little if any pain. I wish I knew exactly to what extent he injured himself, but it seems pointless to pay for xrays and such if there is no need to. Like I said intially other then that one little yelp, and being hesitant to do things the day I heard him, He is pretty much himself.
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Post by Debbie Blackwelder on Apr 13, 2015 7:47:13 GMT -7
Cheryl, was Tucker out of his crate for 2 hours? 100% Strict Crate rest 24/7 around the clock, only out to potty is the only thing that will heal Tucker's injured disc. The more movement he does is only taking a chance of tearing the infected disc further, making his healing time much longer and harder.
The crate acts as a cast for the spine and the less movement, the better. The crate rest is vitally important to allow the disc to heal and form scar tissue. Too much movement and the disc could tear more and you'd be back to square one and that is simply not something you would want.
Dogs always do the unexpected, so we have to be one step ahead of them in always providing the very safest of environments for the disc to heal in. We understand how critical is it for limited movement of the neck and back, but dogs do not understand these things. In a blink of an eye a dog will dart at the sound of the TV doorbell or something floating past the window.
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Post by Debbie Blackwelder on Apr 13, 2015 8:06:08 GMT -7
Ok, that makes me feel much better and sorry I got excited. I don't know why I thought you were talking about a 4 x 4 pen or something. Please accept my apology. I am so happy he is getting better. Debbie
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Post by Cheryl & Tucker on Apr 13, 2015 9:18:35 GMT -7
The crate I take him out in is 24x18x19, he also sleeps in that one at night. During the day he is in a bigger cate in my living room. It is set up 30x 24. It is made for a big dog, it was my sister's, and I just sectioned off the back part so it wasn't too big. I guess it was me saying kennel that threw you off.
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Post by Cheryl & Tucker on Apr 15, 2015 5:12:25 GMT -7
Tucker is doing well. He had another laser treatment yesterday. He just wants to play and when he sees his brother play with toys he whines. The good thing is that Oscar seems less interested in playing with toys without his sidekick. Tucker walks well when out for potty. You can tell there is a little deficit, sometimes not totally balanced, but he is very capable. Like I said, at times he even lifts a leg to pee and can balance himself. Always very enthusiatic when seeing you after you have been gone for a little while. Enough that you have to tell him to calm done. He wiggles that whole little body. Sleeping eating, well. He drinks, but not allot, so I always put water in with his food, have always done this. Also when I feel he has gone too long without a drink, I just put a little gravey from a can of wet food in some water, and because he is so food motivated he drinks it all.
He enjoys being outside in the sun in his crate. When in the house in his crate he seems defeated and only wants to sleep. At least when outside he looks around and doesnt sleep all the time.
I see the vet again on Thursday, the 23rd. I believe she is going to taper the metacam at that point. Does this seem too soon. Is there any real time frame, or is it dependant on how the dog, looks/feels. I am assuming that pain meds should be tapered at the same time.
This is very hard, I wish that if it had to happen, it could have happened over the winter when it is freezing cold and Dachshunds have no interest in being outside, would have relieved my empathy for him not being able to enjoy the weather we have waited 4 long months for.
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Marjorie
Moderator~
Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,724
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Post by Marjorie on Apr 15, 2015 6:31:55 GMT -7
When to start a taper is really a guess on the part of a vet, Cheryl. It can take 7-30 days for the swelling to resolve. Metacam doesn't need to be tapered as it's a NSAID - only steroids need to be tapered. And yes, the pain meds should also be tapered or stopped so a good test for pain can be made. During the tapering or stopping of meds, you'll need to be on the close lookout for any signs of pain returning as that would mean the swelling hasn't resolved yet and more time is needed on all meds.
It's fine that he's sleeping a lot inside. He needs to rest. Glad he's enjoying the sun in his crate. Please let us know what the vet says during the follow-up exam.
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Post by Cheryl & Tucker on Apr 15, 2015 6:32:18 GMT -7
I have another question, Hope I am not driving you crazy. Until about a month ago, I regularly gave my dogs coconut oil. When I took my older dog in for blood work, because she wasnt feeling well, they noticed elevations in her pancreas, so asked me to stop coconut oil for a while. After I ran out, I did not get more, wondering if I was actually doing them any good. I know it is known for it's antiinflamatory properties, and seeing that Tucker had been on it for at least a year, since I got him. Can I return it back to his menu? Never had any side effects before, and everything was good until I stopped.
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Post by Debbie Blackwelder on Apr 15, 2015 7:00:09 GMT -7
Hello Cheryl, yes the word kennel threw me off in your earlier post. Again I apologize but it frightened me when I originally read the post. Tucker is doing so good and you really caught his episode so early that thank goodness there was not a lot of damage done so his healing process should go easy and quick. Most people wait until their fur baby is paralyzed or so forth before seeking help and it is so much harder on the dog to recover. I myself was one of those people in the beginning because I did not know about IVDD and dachshunds were prone to it. I let my pups be paralyzed three times resulting in three surgeries. Now when I see a suspicious sign its off to the crate for 8 weeks. Like you, in the beginning I stressed over putting them in the crate for that length of time and I was tempted to let them out but now I realize it is for their own good and if I plan on them living a full life with me I have to do what I have to do, and that is crate rest.
I will let one of the other moderators comment on the coconut oil because I do not give it to my pups. Two of my fur-babies do have pancreatitis and I know my vet told me to stay away from coconut oil for them. I will do some reading as well and I await another moderator's comments on the subject. They might not comment because we specialize in IVDD but I am sure someone will.
Debbie
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,548
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Post by PaulaM on Apr 15, 2015 8:40:53 GMT -7
Cheryl, would be a good idea to not restart coconut oil while on any IVDD meds. Extra oil in the diet can be the cause of signs similar to adverse side effects of NSAIDs such as Metacam. You did not say the purpose the coconut oil was to address. If the purpose was IVDD related, then you may want to read our article on supplements and IVDD: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/Supplements.htm |
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Post by Cheryl & Tucker on Apr 17, 2015 9:20:26 GMT -7
Tucker is well, all is good, but he gets very bored/sullen in his crate. Got a Kong Quest to put kibble in, but that seems to get him very anxious. He will not lay still and try to lick and get it out, he flips it around with his paws/nose and whines and carries on.
I bought some soup bones to boil, so I can put a piece of kibble in an icecube tray and freeze it using the broth. Do you think it would be okay to freeze little pieces of marrow in it also? I am trying eveything and anything to make this tollerable, more pleasant process for both of us.
He is a very active little fellow, and even with a nylabone, there is no staying put with it in his crate. He moves it around and digs for it. No matter what I try, that is what he does with everything!
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,548
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Post by PaulaM on Apr 17, 2015 10:00:55 GMT -7
Marrow is high in fat so while on meds not a good idea. You may need to help Tucker to be able to relax in his recovery suite if he is being rambunctious with too much movement of the back. Using any oral calmer in combination with a Pheromone diffuser seems to work best. It takes several days for these to start working - it isn't immediate but they are a much better option if you can avoid heavy duty prescription sedatives such as Acepromazine, Trazodone, etc. Of course always keep your vet in the loop on all things you give your dog. Other product brands may be available in your area or on-line… just shop by the active ingredient(s) on the label and the quantity for best price. Place a DAP pheromone diffuser at floor level where the recovery suite is. Some brands to consider: --Comfort Zone (DAP) wall plug-in diffuser 48ml www.petcomfortzone.com/dogs.html --Adaptil (DAP) wall plug in diffuser 48ml www.adaptil.com/ Use a diffuser with one oral calmer from below: 1) ANXITANE® S chewable tabs contain 50 mg L-Theanine, an amino acid that acts neurologically to help keep dogs calm, relaxed www.virbacvet.com/products/detail/anxitane-l-theanine-chewable-tablets/behavioral-health 2) Composure Soft Chews are colostrum based like calming mother's milk and contain 21 mg of L-Theanine. www.vetriscience.com/composure-soft-dogs-MD-LD.php Most dogs need some 16-18 hours of sleep per day, people sleep 8-9 hours day. What are they doing in the crate? Laying around and sleeping! Don't give into the temptation to start a treat routine to combat non-existent boredom. Adding a bunch of treats as entertainment contributes to weight gain which isn't a good thing. The lo-cal broth cube, small piece of carrot or apple are ok for treats. When it is meal time... give him a pre-pared meal: Soak his kibble in broth and freeze each of his normal kibble portions into a Kong so he has a job... working for his food |
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Post by Cheryl & Tucker on Apr 17, 2015 16:11:10 GMT -7
Something new I noticed today when Tucker went out for potty time. He was checking his butt before he had a bowel movement. The last time, just 5 minutes ago, he scooted his butt on the ground after he was done. This is something I don't ever remember seeing him do, even before this event. Since this episoid, when he went out, it seemed as if the bowel movements just kind of happened, then he would take the stance, if you know what I mean. Is it possible he may be getting more sensation/awareness as to what is happening, or is it possible his anal glands are bothering him?
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Post by Pauliana on Apr 17, 2015 21:26:01 GMT -7
Hi Cheryl!
It sounds to me like he is getting more sensation back there.. After he is finished with going potty, pick him up right afterwards and carry him back to the crate. Scooting isn't a good idea right now.. Too much movement of the back.. If it continues to be a problem have his Vet, carefully keeping in mind his IVDD, check his anal glands.
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Post by Cheryl & Tucker on Apr 18, 2015 10:35:09 GMT -7
So Tucker was out this morning, just sniffed and then assumed the stance and had a bowel movement, no scooting of the deriere afterwards. He sniffed around quite a bit before peeing, but I knew he had to go becuase he had not gone since 11:30 pm. What is it with these dogs and the perfect spot? He has no pain, sleeps all night, is relaxed in the kennel, so long as no one is around squeeking toys in his face. (His doggie brother Oscar) Eats well, should say I have to slow him down when he eats. I have not seen him drink from the water dish in the kennel, so I add water to his meals, and sometimes give him an ounce or so with a bit of gravey for enticement. Don't want to give him too much, don't need a case of bloat on top of this, but don't want him dehydrated either. He is alert, happy, and only whines when the other animals are getting attention. I often put my upper body in and pet/talk to him, but all he wanys to do is wash my face!! I just want to pet and reassure him, but he only wants to kiss kiss kiss. He is a trooper. The hard part will be when he makes it out of that crate..
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,548
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Post by PaulaM on Apr 18, 2015 12:46:35 GMT -7
Cheryl, good to hear Tucker is doing well, pain free and in good spirit! However much he loves to find the perfect spot, that can't be allowed to go on past a few footsteps as protection for that early healing disc. Using a sling (long winter scarf, ace bandage, belt) will save your back and help to keep your dog's back aligned and butt from tipping over. if the slight bit wobbly. A harness and 6 foot leash will control speed and keep footsteps to minimum as you stand in one spot. An ex-pen in the grass or some of that poke in the ground garden edging fence is an excellent alternative to minimizing footsteps with the physical and visual to indicate there will be no sniff festing going on and what I found works best with my dogs  |
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