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Post by Gabriel & Jumpy on Mar 17, 2015 11:52:51 GMT -7
WHO CAN HELP? HOW? WHERE?
I have a 4-1/2 year old dachshund that was operated of ivdd 3 disks on wednesday 3/11 at 4 pm.
After the surgery we took him home that evening because the Vet had no one to watch him overnight….
Bad news.
The dog was very aggressive and seem to be in pain sometimes in between medications:
Famotidine 10 mg 1 hr before the other meds.
Tramadol 50 mg – 2 per day,
Previcox 57 mg – 1 per day,
Ciprofloxacin 250 mg– 2 per day.
He would bite if your hand or spoon or blanket, or … got near his face.
After the surgery he was slow coming out of the anesthecia… and he had like a sezure, said the Vet. He was worried. When my wife got to the clinic she talked to the dog and he woke up from the anesthecia.
The next morning he slept a lot and he laid on his side . He would softly jerk his upper body several times during a 15 minute period, maybe 15 times. Then it would stop for an hour or more.
He could be put on his stomach with his hind legs spred and his front legs in front.
But by the end of the day he seem to be loosing his balance and would lay on the side. He would raise his head or turn in a “worm” position. Also it look like his front legs were not working either.
We would take him to our shower stall to Express him but his legs would not work. We had trouble holding him up and expressing him. He waits 23 lbs.
By the 3rd day his front legs seem to be more rigid and had no use of them. He would softly jerk his left front leg and part of his chest. He seem to be in some pain or his bladder full. So we took him to the Vet.. To us he was worse. He was aggressive that morning.
He could not lay on his belly and his legs were stiff.. He would not eat but he would drink water. So the Vet kept him to put him on IV and a Catherer and Diazepan.. I believe. And express him.
He has kept him there Saturday, Sunday, Monday and today.
I so him today and he recognizes me immediately and start to cry and howl. When I pet him by the muzzle he felt it and relaxed. When I rubed his stomach he jerk a little so he felt it. When I touched his front leg he twitch or softly jerk it. But he just lay ther like he could not move but his head. I did not try to move him because the Vet was not in only the technician.
Is this normal or at least plausible??? Or is this a nightmare for the dog.
Will he recover in a few weeks? Or is he going to get worse?
His scar is healing perfectly.
If I take him home would he be better? With the catherer on… with the IV…?
How long to wait for a little improvement??? Or is he quadriplegic??
Thank you, from Jumpy and Gabriel
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Post by Pauliana on Mar 17, 2015 13:55:46 GMT -7
Welcome to Dodgerslist. First thing to know is that it IS in the cards for your dog to get back to enjoying life whether immediately walking or waiting on more nerve repair - IVDD is not a death sentence. Find out why that is true: www.dodgerslist.com/index/SDUNCANquality.htm No it isn't normal. Your dog was sent home right after surgery under inadequate pain medication. He was in agony. He should have been in the hospital until his pain was under control with IV meds. Once that happens they wean the dog to oral medications and the dog is released. Usually after 2 or 3 days. He was also having seizures and that would have been a reason to keep him in the hospital until that was under control if need be by medications to control the seizures. Glad he is in the hospital for the past few days. He should stay at the hospital until he is weaned to oral medications that are working to control pain. Tramadol by the way doesn't work well given less than 3 times a day. It is a short acting drug and it works even better given with Gabapentin, which is an anti seizure drug. It is also a great pain med and makes Tramadol work even better. Look forward to learning more about your dog with your answers to these questions: ▷ What is your dog's name? Your name, too? Does your dog have a fever? You didn't say which discs were involved in the surgery, it would help to know that. ▷ Is the surgeon a general practice DVM or a specialist (ACVIM neurology or ACVS otho)? ▷ When your dog is home are you doing 100% STRICT crate rest 24/7 only out to potty and for surgeon directed PT? …. No laps, no couch, no sleeping in bed with you, no meandering, scooting or dragging around during potty times. No chiro (aka VOM)? What did your surgeon direct for PT and for post-op crate rest? ▷ Is there still currently pain - shivering, trembling, yelping when picked up or moved, reluctant to move much or slow to move, tight tense tummy? Pain means your vet needs to know asap so that pain meds can be adjusted. Pain meds need to be customized for your dog. It isn't a one size fits all situation. ▷ Poops OK - normal firmness & color -no dark or bright red blood? ▷ If there is pain or neuro diminishment, dogs can benefit greatly with acupuncture or laser light therapy. These therapies can be be started right away to help relieve pain and to also to kick start energy production in nerve cells to sprout. So if this therapy is in your budget, seek out a holistic vet. ahvma.org/Widgets/FindVet.html Chiropractic is not recommended for IVDD dogs. Excluding an emergency of pain not being controlled or diminishment of nerve functions that require prompt vet help, we have excellent resources for many IVDD questions members have. While you are waiting for a reply, do check out our "All things IVDD" resources for getting the recovery suite setup to an excellent tip about pet strollers: www.dodgerslist.com/literature.htm |
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Post by Becky's Bridget&Travis on Mar 17, 2015 23:58:24 GMT -7
I think he is allergic to tramadol!!!!! My Travis was and displayed similar issues. We used Gabapentin q 6 hours to get his pain under control.
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Post by Debbie Blackwelder on Mar 18, 2015 9:24:41 GMT -7
Good Morning! I have had you guys on my mind all night last night. Can you give us an update this morning on your baby? Where are you located?
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Post by Gabriel & Jumpy on Mar 19, 2015 7:59:54 GMT -7
JUMPY was seen by Neurologist Board Cert'd yesterday for an evaluation. In Miami where we live.
I picked him up from the DVM that did the surgery, where he is being kept in a cage with IV and catheter, and carried him to the Neuro…
When I picked him up he pooped. It was dark, not blood red. He was in pain as he was picked up, trembling, shivering and yelping. (Part of this could be excitement to see me? When I would come home he would jump all-over me and run back and forth for a while)) The DVM gave him a pain shot thru his IV connection to help him feel better. Put him in the car but when the car moved for any reason, even softly, JUMPY would cry and twist and try to move.
He seemed to have less twitching of his front legs but they are a little stiff. No tight tummy.
When we got to the Neuro he was calmer and he settled down, but was reluctant to move. He has some trembling of his left front leg but not as frequent as before.
He had fever of 105 so they worked on that with fluids then they examined him.
• The Neurologist could not determined why JUMPY has lost use of his front legs. He thinks maybe when the Vet did the myelogram some fluid leaked from the needle into the spinal fluid. Infection, allergic reaction or injury. He promised to consult some of his colleagues with more experience in myelograms.
• The acupuncturist Vet suggests we wait a few more days to start some treatment. He is getting reports from the Vets, his regular Vet, the Vet that operated and the Neurologist.
• This morning he is resting in his cage at the Vet that operated him. He is on antibiotic, Famotidine, Dizepan. Pain killer only if they see a need. Less twitching of his front leg.
We need some help from a VET with knowledge on myelogram complications. Or with fluid leaked into spine fluid. Maybe somebody at the Vet Schools??
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Marjorie
Moderator~ 
Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,724 
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Post by Marjorie on Mar 19, 2015 8:17:02 GMT -7
I don't want to scare you but I do want to make you aware of a disease that can follow any type of spinal cord injury and it is called Myelomalacia. The cause of M or how it progresses is still unknown. It is important that owners are also familiar with symptoms in order to promptly get vet help at any hour of the night or day. Although Myelomalacia was thought to be rare, we are finding that perhaps it is not as uncommon as once thought. Many vets have never observed a case of Myelomalacia so you might want to print out the symptoms listed below so you can discuss and have a plan. With Myelomalacia, what happens basically is that the spinal cord starts to die from the point of the spinal cord trauma moving forward toward the head. It is very painful and it will eventually shut down breathing. Here are some of the symptoms that are used to diagnose Myelomalacia and the symptoms that evolve as it progresses. It can happen fast, within hours. Should your dog be developing myelomalacia, before difficulty breathing starts, you would want to help him cross to the rainbow bridge to spare a very painful death. Deep pain sensation nor leg function not returning right away alone are not a symptoms of myelomalacia. Myelomalacia can be easily confirmed by your DVM with the following: * about 3-4 days into recovery, they become painful. Within the first week, they are in a LOT of pain. * development of excruciating pain (more than just pain from the original disc herniation) • even the strongest pain meds do not help • once the symptoms begin continued death of the spinal cord happens fast.. in a matter of hours, requiring prompt ER vet help and prevent suffering that will only end badly in death. • hyper-esthesia (over-reaction to any touch sensation on body) * acute disc extrusion with no deep pain sensation * loss of anal tone, the anus hangs open, (anal flaccidity) and areflexia (below normal or no reflexes) * loss of cutaneous trunci reflex at a level more cranial to a previous evaluation over a period of hours to days with or w/o surgery * development of fever (normal rectal temperature is 100.5 to 102.5 degrees Fahrenheit) * sudden twitching or jerking of the neck and/or head * loss of voice, hoarse bark * can't hold body up, can't hold head up * increased respiration/ labored breathing as the nerves to the lungs begin to shutdown • On an MRI, extensive high T2 signal (brightness) within the spinal cord (>6 vertebral lengths) has been associated with myelomalacia in the setting of a disk extrusion. www.dodgerslist.com/literature/myelomalacia/3t-myelo-misdxb0002.tifMore information: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/Myelomalacia.pdfI'm hoping and praying that M is not developing but just having a hard time getting pain under control. We anxiously await hearing back on what the vet says. |
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Marjorie
Moderator~
Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,724
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Post by Marjorie on Mar 19, 2015 8:27:43 GMT -7
If this isn't "M" and I truly hope it isn't, here are some resources for finding a vet with knowledge about myelogram complications (yes, possibly a vet tech school would have knowledge): ► www.acvim.org/►https://online.acvs.org/acvsssa/rflssareferral.query_page?P_VENDOR_TY=VETShttps://online.acvs.org Dodgerlist Members' vet recommendations - dodgerslist.boards.net/board/10/guidelines-postingThe regular vet shouldn't have given your dog any pain meds prior to his being seen by the neuro, so the neuro could make a better exam. However, your dog was reluctant to move at the neuro's, which is a sign of pain. Didn't the neuro give any direction as to how the regular vet should be addressing your dog's pain issues? He definitely is in pain and needs to have pain meds all day to keep that pain under control, not just "as needed". Please speak to the vet about adjusting the meds to get your dog's pain under control today. Please also speak to the vet about what is being given as far as IV meds. What pain meds are being given? Is an anti-inflammatory being given? If so, he needs to also have a stomach protector, such as Pepcid AC, to protect against the side effects of the meds. When you say his poop was dark but not blood red, dark poop can indicate the presence of blood. Even if he isn't receiving an anti-inflammatory, stress itself can cause GI distress so he needs Pepcid AC and Sucralfate added for double protection. Please let us know what the vets say after speaking to them. Prayers for you all. |
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Post by Gabriel & Jumpy on Mar 19, 2015 9:51:09 GMT -7
Myelography performed using OMNIPAQUE. Surgery: Dorsal midline incision over T10-T13
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Post by Gabriel & Jumpy on Mar 19, 2015 11:34:27 GMT -7
He is not in pain now. He is resting in his cage peacefully, and awake. Thanks God.
The Neuro said he would dismiss Myelomalacia after his exam yesterday.
His medications are:
Vit B in IV solution 3 ml to a bottle
Cefazolin - antibiotic
Famotidine - stomach protector
SOLU-DELTA-CORTEF - antiimflamatory
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Post by Bishop & Bogey on Mar 19, 2015 11:51:58 GMT -7
thinking of you too. my dogs surgery was not the norm either. Bogey was done one 2/20. getting the pain taken care of was so imp. he too would try to bite if we touched him. he too did this involuntary type twitching. he stayed at the vets for almost 2 weeks. I cannot tell you your dog will be fine, but just last night bogey moved his tail. he no longer twitches or cries or bites. It is awful going through these first weeks, but you will make it . never lose hope.
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Post by Pauliana on Mar 19, 2015 12:18:48 GMT -7
Hi Gabriel!
Very glad to hear that Jumpy is resting and is no longer in pain. Happy that Myelomalacia has been ruled out. What are the dosages of the medications and the times per day given? Is he at home or still at the hospital?
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Post by Gabriel & Jumpy on Mar 20, 2015 8:49:37 GMT -7
Bishop and Bogey: thanks for the encouragement. JUMPY stopped twitching his front leg.... I don't know if is the med Diazepan (muscle relaxer, and sedative?) But his front legs don't work either. Was Bogey like that? After the surgery his front legs got stiffed... now they are not as stiffed.
He is at the Vet clinic on a catherer and constant IV to flush his system if there was any allergies to the anesthesia or dye
and his meds are:
Vit B in IV solution 3 ml to a bottle
Cefazolin - antibiotic
Famotidine - stomach protector
SOLU-DELTA-CORTEF - anti imflamatory
I just saw him and he smelled me before he saw me, about 10' away. He got very excited and his front legs were shaking rapidly but as I petted him he relaxed and calmed down, he would not try to get up or move his head much but he was not twitching. The Vet will do another exam on Monday. And the Neuro on Wednesday.
Thanks, Gabriel & JUMPY
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PaulaM
Moderator. 
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,555
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Post by PaulaM on Mar 20, 2015 15:33:28 GMT -7
Gabriel, sounds like Jumpy has a lot of life in him with excitement to smell and see you! It can take time for those nerves to self heal... so patience is needed. When will your DVM surgeon think all pain is in control enough to discharge him home? I bet you will have a lot of questions come to mind. So that no question goes without an answer in the excitement of discharge day, you will want to make a list. Here is one started for you to add in your own questions: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/dischargequestions.htmGood reading that can answer some post op questions or give you an idea of what you want to know more about: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/surgery.htm |
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Post by Gabriel & Jumpy on Mar 29, 2015 9:44:31 GMT -7
• We took him back to the Vet he is resting in his cage at the Vet that operated him. Less twitching of his front leg.
He is not in pain now. He is resting in his cage peacefully, and awake. Thanks God.
The Neuro said he would dismiss Myelomalacia after his exam 3/18.
His medications were:
Vit B in IV solution 3 ml to a bottle
Cefazolin - antibiotic
Famotidine - stomach protector
SOLU-DELTA-CORTEF - anti-inflammatory
His Vet kept him all week on IV, with those meds, to flush his system in case of any allergies or fluid in the spinal cord. His Neuro suggested the continual IV and cage rest.
On 3/25 his Vet removed the IV and we took Jumpy to the Neuro Vet for a follow up that he requested.
This Neuro Vet is reluctant to give us his reports on his observations. I have ask him and he says he has not written them that he will give it to us and a Vet for acupuncture. But his comments were “ I see him the same as before” , (not true .. his twitching had stopped and his legs were a little less stiff) but as far as his hind and front legs being useless he was right, NO CHANGE. His front legs were stiff and he would not like being put on his left side. Now sometimes he complains and others not when he is on his left side.
We took him home on 3/25 after his Neuro visit. He made no recommendation other than to say that one of his colleagues had said that if it was dye getting into the spinal fluid then there was nothing that could be done or something like that. He would not send the reports to the Acupuncture Vet or to his Surgeon Vet or to us. It seems that the Neuro and the Acupuncture Vet do not want to treat him or “mess” with Jumpy??? Because we have been calling the Acupuncture Vet for 2 weeks and he has not spoken to us “until we get the report from the Neuro”
Since he has been home I believe that his legs are not so stiff anymore except when he is complaining about being on the side. Then we lay him on his stomach with a pillow under his chest, neck and face. Then his legs relax a little.
He is eating 2 times a day Prescription I/D can food for intestinal health. 1 can per day
He is taking 10 mg Diazepam 1-1/2 pills twice a day.
We give him “Rescue” in drops if he gets too restless.
We lay him on the side to Express and he starts as we press him then continues on his own. He poops without help but on his bassinet while sleeping or during the day.
What is causing his front leg paralysis? I saw something about…. Severe thoracolumbar spinal cord injury may cause paraplegia with increased extensor tone in the thoracic limbs (Schiff-Sherrington phenomenon) Is this the problem???
Would you be able to consult thru the phone? We are in Miami.
What are the possibilities of recovery? Can you think of a way to help him?
On Tuesday we are going to see another Acupuncture Vet…. Can you work with us?
Jumpy and Gabriel
We sent Jumpy's info to a Dr Neuro of the U of F to see if somebody can shed some light on his front leg paralysis. today 3/29
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,555
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Post by PaulaM on Mar 29, 2015 14:09:51 GMT -7
Gabriel, I'm so sorry to hear of the challenges you have had post-op. From what I have just briefly researched Schiff-Scherrington phenomenon is basically when a dog can't retract their limbs. The limbs stay in an outward stretched position. This is due to the spinal cord having been damaged (Severe thoracolumbar spinal cord injury). With Schiff it depends where the damage is whether all four limbs are affected. The cause for damage could range from: -- car accident where the spinal cord was cut from the vertebrae bone fracturing into the cord -- from a disc episode where the disc bursts open and severely damages the cord -- In other words there was an event that caused a cut across the spinal cord, a transection. I am glad that you are seeking to know more about this from a board certified specialist in neurology in Miami as well as those at the U of FL. I would also recommend you do some indepth reading about Schiff yourself to better understand when discussing things with your specialists. My questions are: ■ Does Jumpy still have deep pain sensation (DPS) as identified only by a specialist? DVMs often get this indicator of neuro function wrong. Having DPS means there is a good chance that nerves have a potential to heal. Even dogs who do not process DPS do have the opportunity with time to perhaps heal enough of nerve cells to bring back DPS and then the possibility to recover other functions. Let us know if you personally have specifically done some happy talk to him and have seen a happy tail wag. Nerves heal typically in the reverse order of the damage to the spinal cord: 1. Deep Pain Sensation (Only correctly identified by a specialist.) 2. Tail wagging with joy at seeing you or getting a treat or meal. 3. Bladder and bowel control verified with the "sniff and pee" test. 4. Leg Movement, and then ability to move up into a standing position, and then wobbly walking. 5. Being able to walk with more steadiness and properly place the feet. 6. Ability to walk unassisted and perhaps even run. Nerves are the slowest part of the body to heal. It may happen before crate rest is complete that you might see some outward signs of nerve repair, but more likely you are looking at time in terms of several months to even more like a year out. Several of our members dogs did not walk until 11 mos post op. Then again my dog had a transection caused by a surgery where vertebrae fractured and then cut the cord. Clark has his own wheelchair and is loving life. NOTE: there are also quad carts too! With nerve repair we just have to have patience. Even though I know Clark will never walk again I do daily range of motion for his always extended legs (Shiff-like) so that the joints stay flexible and muscle circulation stays up. ■ What PT are you doing at home: range of motion, massage, weight bearing? Appropriate physical therapy can help maintain the muscles with lost nerve connection. Therapy keeps muscles in optimal condition while in wait to receive regenerating axon terminals. Ask if any of these exercises are appropriate for Jumpy.
■ If you hold Jumpy in an upright position, can he flex, retract his legs on his own or via his body weight OR can you flex bend his legs gently inwards and back outwards? Or can you flex bend his legs in and out while he lies down? ■ At this time what medications is Jumpy on if any? dose in mgs and frequency given? ■ Is Jumpy staying dry in between expressing sessions. How often to your express every 2-3 hour or every 4-6 hours? Until Jumpy passes the sniff and pee test, you will need to express him and not count that his ending a stream is really that of bladder function. Since he does not control his poops, I'm not sure he has any bladder control yet. Good tips and review on expressing both for urine and for poop: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/Expressing.htmTHE SNIFF & PEE TEST The only way for us humans to know if there is bladder control is with the sniff and pee test. Carry Jumpy outdoors, set on an old pee spot to sniff it. See if urine is then released. Make sure the sling or your hands are not on the tummy area as that can press on the bladder. If urine comes out after sniffing, bladder control is returning. You should do a quick express check to verify there is full voiding until you are certain it is consistently happening. Let us know what you observe. The reason you may find reluctance to get comments is you are dealing with a non-board certified veterinarian who did neuro surgery and you are questioning board certified ACVIM neuro specialist surgeons to get answers. There may be questions of ethics, liability, etc. involved Please continue to keep us posted regularly about Jumpy, We know how very hard this must be for you. All I can share is that where possible each day find something positive to recognize whether that be the bassinet outside to enjoy the warmth of the sun or seeing Jumping enjoying a treat. Thinking positive, helps not just you but Jumpy. He so smart you know he'll pick up on positive emotions... and that is VERY good for your healing patient. |
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Post by Gabriel & Jumpy on Apr 5, 2015 15:44:44 GMT -7
Paula:
Thanks for your advice.
Your questions:
■ Does Jumpy still have deep pain sensation (DPS) WE DON'T KNOW. We will take him to his Neuro Vet in another week if we get a report from him from his last two visits
WE TICKLE HIS BELLY AND HE MOVES HIS TAIL ABOUT A QUARTER OF THE RANGE, BUT SLOWLY, NOT WAGGING. Also when we happy talk to him he wags it a little. About the same amount and speed.
He can twist his upper body to switch positions laying on the side to laying on his back.
He kicks his blankets off with his front paws but they are awkward. He can not control them properly.
To Pee he is laid on his side on a table with pee pads and we press his side a little and in 2 to 3 minutes he starts to pee, 3-4 times a day. We do not express him.
His bowels are periodic twice a dayand he just does them in the bassinet while laying there.
■ The PT we are doing at home: range of motion and massage. These directed by an ACU VET that treated him Tuesday 3/31 and will treat him again tomorrow Monday 4/6 and Friday with needles and electric needles and herbs. We saw a big change after the acupuncture session in general body movement. She checked for DPS but there was hardly any. Very slight reaction at one of the rear paws.
■ can he flex, retract his FRONT legs on his own = NO = or via his body weight = NO = OR can you flex bend his legs gently inwards and back outwards? = YES = Or can you flex bend his legs in and out while he lies down? = YES =
■ At this time what medications is Jumpy on if any? dose in mgs and frequency given?
Diazepam 10 mg 1-1/2 twice daily. We also give him
Rescue in drops when he gets too fussy.
Also we are waiting on the herbs prescribed by the Acu Vet
THE SNIFF & PEE TEST = NOT YET.
There may be questions of ethics, liability, etc. involved YOU ARE RIGHT.
Thinking positive, helps not just you but Jumpy. He so smart you know he'll pick up on positive emotions... and that is VERY good for your healing patient. YES
Thank you, thank you.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,555
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Post by PaulaM on Apr 5, 2015 16:50:41 GMT -7
Gabriel, the reason to ask if you got a tail wag specifically when you do some happy talk is to see where his neuro functions are. We are looking for a head level action (seeing, hearing, smelling) and the brain sending a message down the spinal cord to the tail culminating in a happy tail wag. So if you are observing a happy tail wag after doing some happy talk, or letting Jumpy see a treat coming, why then you have confirmed he has deep pain sensation (DPS). DPS is not something many general vets have the training and practice to properly identify what they see-- general DVM's often get DPS wrong. So if he does have the ability to do a happy tail wag, means he is already gone past the DPS.
Being able to do a happy tail wag, DPS means there is the potential that even more nerves will self heal. The acupuncture is a good stimulator to nerves.
This is good that Jumpy can reposition his body on his own... that helps knowing when you are not there he can change sides and doesn't depend on your doing that for him.
I'm a bit worried that you ARE expressing Jumpy but do not have the skills that come with practice of knowing how the bladder feels at the last stage of being empty. A dog who needs to be expressed and the bladder is not expressed til the fingers of one hand can almost feel the fingers of the other...is inviting a bladder infection.
Can you try the sniff and pee test by letting Jumpy smell an old piece of pee pad when you know he would normally need to go potty and you lay him down to pee? Wait let him sniff, see if he will on his own choose to release urine. If not you need to actually express him as demoed in the video and by your vet. Poop will all come out on its own, so it is not the health issue expressing the bladder is.
Does Jumpy stay dry between the potty sessions 3-4 times per day... no urine leaks in his bedding?
So with the information you have shared I believe you are seeing some positive things:
-- you can flex his leg joints in and out during his PT to keep them lubricated and from freezing up.
-- Happy tail wag due to happy talk. Would not be a bad idea to try the happy talk, show him a treat and double check/confirm the happy tail wag.
-- he is not in any pain at all, just on an anxiety med (diazepam)? You do not see any hint of pain such as shivering, trembling, yelping when picked up or moved, reluctant to move much in crate such as shift positions or slow to move, tight tense tummy, can't find a comfortable position . Not his normal perky self
Let us know what herbs will be Rx'd at Monday's acupuncture visit.
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Post by Gabriel & Jumpy on Apr 22, 2015 15:04:48 GMT -7
Hi: I need some help as to a problem Jumpy is having... The skin in the area of his back that was shaved for the operation seems to be very dry, Like dandruf and it seems it is itching a lot. Is there a lotion to rub on his skin or what is best to use. The Vet wants him to take Omega 3 ? But I think Jumpy needs something right away for releive. Thank you, Jumpy, Gabriel  |
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,555
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Post by PaulaM on Apr 22, 2015 15:35:11 GMT -7
Gabriel, you can use some moisturizing lotion you have on hand. Dampen his skin a bit to hydrate and apply lotion. If he is a licker and you don't want him ingesting the lotion, you can also try a very thin coat of your pantry olive oil as it has no objectionable chemicals. What herbs or meds is Jumpy on now if any? How is the acupuncture going, is Jump relaxed then? Does he have bladder control as evidenced by passing the "sniff and pee" test? We'd love to have some news of Jumpy! I just did the math and he has graduated from crate rest!! We'd love to have a photo of him for gallery and the calendar which comes out later this Fall. Here are the directions to up load to our gallery: dodgerslist.boards.net/thread/2262/put-dodgerslist-photo-gallery-calendar |
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Post by Gabriel & Jumpy on Apr 22, 2015 15:53:49 GMT -7
He does happy tail wagging.
I actually NOT EXPRESSING him. I press a little on his side and he pees on his own.
Does Jumpy stay dry between the potty sessions 3-4 times per day... no urine leaks in his bedding? RIGHT
-- he is not in any pain at all, just on an anxiety med (diazepam)? I do not see any hint of pain such as shivering, trembling, yelping when picked up or moved, reluctant to move much in crate such as shift positions or slow to move, tight tense tummy, can't find a comfortable position . Not his normal perky self, No ... but he is on gabapentin still. We are slowing down the dosage, now 2 x day.
The herbs Rx'd by acupuncture Vet are "cervical formula" and "Double P ll"
("This is a Chinese herb produced by Jin-Tang Herbal. they are guaranteed to be pure.
I would be careful with the Double P II. It is prescribed for the acute, painful phase of inter-vertebral disc disease and my guide says "Extremely toxic. Use only for a short time at a low dosage")
I used it for a week only and in small amount
Jumpy does not like the herbs so I have stop them to get them capsulated.
He won't eat the herbs... in treats, pill poppers, food (dry but with a little water). I am going to turn into capsules.
In the accu sessions he is relaxed and sometimes he pulls his left rear leg like he is feeling some of the needles. He is also licking it. Does he feel it?
He pees alone after he gets a helpful pressing. He is been warning that he wants to pee AND poop by crying.
I will upload some pictures from after surgery, in a ugly cage at the Vet, and at home today.
He is on
[23 lbs]
Diazepam 10 mg 2xday and
gabapentin 100mg 2xday slowing down the dosage, now 2 x day.
Thanks for all the good support. Jumpy, Gabriel
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,555
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Post by PaulaM on Apr 22, 2015 18:21:34 GMT -7
Gabriel, I'm glad the Double P II warns how toxic this herb combo is. My question is Jumpy has a nerve disease so what is the reason to give Double P II after surgery when his nerves are trying to heal? If Jumpy is painful then he has a problem he would be better served with pain medications or a med to reduce inflammation all of course depending on what the reason for the pain is...that is a correct diagnosis. What is Jumpy's diagnosis to be taking Double P II? Which kind of vet prescribed the Double P II a general DVM vet or a board certified Neuro vet? Herbs containing aconitine such as Double P II are toxic to the nervous system. Aconitine excites the vagus nerve and central nervous system first, and then leads to successive inhibition, and finally death because of paralysis. www.tcvm.com/doc/TCVMNews2010SummerR.pdfAre you using laser light therapy which is known to kick start nerves to regenerate? |
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Peyton
New Member
Life is better with a dog.
Posts: 111
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Post by Peyton on Apr 25, 2015 11:05:59 GMT -7
Hi Gabriel - I've been reading about Jumpy and the difficult issues you've been going through. I just wanted to let you know that coconut oil is great for Jumpy's skin. We adopted our rescue, Millie, when she was two months post-op. I buy organic extra virgin coconut oil and have been rubbing it on her incision scar as well as other scars (from who-knows-what before her rescue) and on her tail and ears too. You can also add it to food or give it as a treat (about a teaspoon a day for a little Doxie) - all three of my doxies love it. I wish you and Jumpy all the best on recovery road - stay strong! -
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Post by Gabriel & Jumpy on May 24, 2015 9:49:27 GMT -7
Thanks to Peyton on the organic coconut oil. Do you buy it at a whole food store??? Thanks, Gabriel Hi Everybody: Jumpy reporting. May 24 It's been 10-1/2 weeks since the surprised result of IVDD surgery when Jumpy came out with his hind legs not working (expected) but his front legs rigid/stiff and had no use of them, jerking his front legs and part of his chest. As you all know. He has recovered slowly with meds, Gabapentin, Diazepam, Dr Xien’s Jing-Tang hebs: cervical formula, Double P ll (2), and now we just added Bu Yang Huan Wu (for IVDD rear weakness) and accupuncture. He wags his tail feverishly, he pulls his rear legs off our hands when we "tickle" his rear paws. He feels his rear at the end of the spine and beginning of tail. Because of this we feel he will walk eventually..... WHAT DO YOU THINK. Because he is not using the legs to stand or move them around in any way, should we be "re-training" him to walk??? HOW? Or does that come naturally. He's Vet/Accu recommends exercises for his legs by moving them like "bicycling" while laying on his back, also massages, which we do. And he is going Tuesday for "water therapy" and treadmill, at a Rehab Vet. Will let you know how that goes. His front legs are working fine now but he stills makes them stiff when he is feeling unsecured, like when he is picked up and carried on his back. When he is layed down on the floor he will pull himself to places close by. However we are reluctant to use a “bag” for his hind legs… or a cart …. May he feel like he does not need his hind legs.. ?? We want him to know he has those legs trailing there and eventually use them. WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS??? THANKS AGAIN FOR ALL THE PRAYERS, CONCERNS, COMMENTS, RECOMMENDATIONS, AND CARING. jUMPY, GABRIEL Also: His skin condition, or itching, apparentley was only temporary, maybe from a bath not properly rinsed. But we have used baby oil sporadically. Paula: We used Double P ll only for 2 weeks, that's all it is recommended, 2 or 3 weeks in the severe phase of IVDD or post surgery .... And we became aware because of the comments we received like yours. We then talked to the prescribing Vet and acted accordingly. We are not using "laser light therapy which is known to kick start nerves to regenerate" first I hear of it. I'll try to check it out. |
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,555
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Post by PaulaM on May 24, 2015 11:10:35 GMT -7
Gabriel, is Jumpy still on Gabapentin and Diazepam as well as all the other herbs? Do you know what is the reason to still be on Diazepam and Gabapentin? Coconut oil can be found in your grocery store in a jar located in the oil and canned fats section. Coconut oil becomes oil when slightly warmed by hands otherwise it will be white and firm when cold. At the point that nerves have connected enough, there a neuro function will return. The things we humans look for to see if it is a neuro function or a reflex is some head/brain) level (voice, eyes, smell, hearing) involvement when we see a lower body movement. So you do some happy talk to Jumpy and watch for a happy tail wag. At potty time you place the dog on an old pee spot to smell and then observe for pee to be release to let you know there is bladder control. Often the nerves repair in a classic order. As you have reported he does have bladder control and he does have control of his tail wagging. It would seem there is sufficient defending nerve axons that at some point in time the legs too can regain some function. No one would be able to give you the date or timeline just the order of nerve repair. 10 weeks is still very, very early in the nerve healing department...think in terms of months rather than weeks. 1. Deep Pain Sensation (Only correctly identified by a specialist.) 2. Tail wagging with joy at seeing you or getting a treat or meal. 3. Bladder and bowel control verified with the "sniff and pee" test. <---- Jumpy is here?4. Leg Movement, and then ability to move up into a standing position, and then wobbly walking. 5. Being able to walk with more steadiness and properly place the feet. 6. Ability to walk unassisted and perhaps even run. If you have access to laser therapy, I would investigate that as well as even continuing with acupuncture is all is in your family's budget. It is time for Jumpy to get back to enjoying his home and as normal activities as possible. For ScooterGarments: -- Clark’s Bumpad: users.cyberport.net/%7Emilnerwm/bumpad1.html [for dogs who scoot like a frog] -- Tandy’s Butt Protect: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/aftercraterest/Buttprotect.htm -- Airy mesh panel www.handicappedpets.com/index.php/walkin-wheels-drag-bag.html [drag bag] Consider a wheelchair too so he can feel the wind flapping his ears again! Look at the feature a wheelchair should have for an IVDD dog here: www.dodgerslist.com/links/cart.htmHere's my Clark enjoying a summer's day in his Eddie's Wheelchair
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Post by Gabriel & Jumpy on Aug 23, 2016 10:51:00 GMT -7
Jumpy here.
It's been almost a year and a half (17 months) since the surgery.
CAN NOT WALK.
THIS IS THE STORY:
History: Jumpy, a 4 year old, MN, Dachshund. He originally presented on 3/10
for evaluation of paraparesis and was sent home on conservative
management. He was taken to Dr. XXX on 3/12 where a myelogram
and a hemilaminectomy were performed. He did not do well after surgery,
was having bladder expressions and came back to see NEUROLOGIST on 3/18 for a
recheck. He was paraplegic with no deep pain perception at that time. He
went back to Dr. XXX on 3/18 for hospitalization until this
morning. They pulled his urinary catheter this morning, and they have
been treating him with diazepam injections as well.
Mentation: Alert, anxious.
Gait/Posture: Non-ambulatory tetraparesis. Lower motor neuron to the
thoracic limbs and upper motor neuron quality in the pelvic limbs.
Cranial Nerves: Normal reflexes and responses.
Proprioception: Absent in all four limbs.
Patient History Report - 4/17/15 - Jumpy - Owner: G. Cardenas & M. Chavarri - Page 1 of 4
Segmental Reflexes: Decreased withdrawal reflexes in the thoracic limbs.
Absent cutaneous trunci reflex the length of the spinal cord.
Palpation: Generalized hyperpathia.
Neuroanatomical Localization: Multifocal (T1-S3 spine.
Differential Diagnoses: Central canal injection of iohexol.
Plan: Continued time and monitoring.
Summary & Recommendations: Jumpy's examination suggests a problem
affecting the length of his spinal cord. I suspect that this is due to a
central canal injection of contrast. Whether the cause is 'expansion' of the
spinal cord or chemical irritation is of less importance. Both do not have
an easy 'fix' and simply require time if there is going to be improvement.
esolution of signs will
take several weeks to months if it is going to resolve at all.
*******THAT WAS THE LAST REPORT FROM THE NEURO.******
WELL NOW HE HAS RECOVERED SOMEWHAT. BUT NO WALKING. He has back legs reaction and his tail wags furiously.
HE has regained the use of his front legs very strongly, he pulls himself on the floor to different places at home. When doing this you can see some bending or a little pushing from his rear left leg but his right leg does not help at all....YET.
He still needs to be expressed to urinate and his #2 is unpredictable.... But last couple of weeks he has peed alone when going to expressed him on a table where I do the expressing. Also he has peed on the floor when pulling himself around. He only pulls himself for very short periods.
I think he had damage to the spinal cord fluid that carries the signal to his brain.
I think that Jumpy is on his way to a full recovery but is going to take another few months, as his Neuro Vet said: "resolution of signs will take several weeks to months if it is going to resolve at all".
So, So, So ..... I would like to know if there are other pets with more than a year paralysis.
Jumpy has a cart but does not use very much. Also he gets some therapy in water (His belly gets bruised easily) and accu but only once a month or so.
And any other ideas. Please.
We are getting on in years (71) and is hard for us to carry him around and up the stairs... we live in a 2-story house, and he weights 26 lbs, is a big Dachshund.
Should we pee him outside and not expressed him??
Should we let him pull himself over the floor... , put a "sack" over his rear legs....., keep him in the cart daily??
Any other ideas. Please.
Thank you very much.
Jumpy and Gabriel
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,555
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Post by PaulaM on Aug 23, 2016 13:07:55 GMT -7
Gabriel, we have had some few dogs who were able to self repair nerves enough to bring back walking even a year or so out. What we see is that having deep pain sensation (DPS) which Jumpy has AND even more self repair that you see a happy tail wag and possibly bladder control usually means that even more nerve repair can happen. Of course, no one can give you a date...that is all up to Jump and Mother Nature. Can you confirm the bladder control by doing a sniff and pee test. The only way for us humans to know if there is bladder control is with the sniff and pee test. Carry outdoors to an old pee spot to sniff it. See if urine is then released. Make sure the sling or your hands are not on the tummy area as that can press on the bladder, the same as the saddle of the wheelchair will press on the bladder too. If urine comes out after sniffing, bladder control is returning. You should do a quick express check to verify there is full voiding until you are certain it is consistently happening. Let us know what you observe. Nerves heal typically in the reverse order of the damage to the spinal cord: 1. √ Deep Pain Sensation (Only correctly identified by a specialist.) 2. √ Tail wagging with joy at seeing you or getting a treat or meal. 3. ? Bladder and bowel control verified with the "sniff and pee" test. 4. Leg Movement, and then ability to move up into a standing position, and then wobbly walking. 5. Being able to walk with more steadiness and properly place the feet. 6. Ability to walk unassisted and perhaps even run. More info: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingnerves.htmWhat type of water therapy does Jumpy get...swimming? If he has the ability to move his legs outside of what may happen during a potty break, he may do very well with under water treadmill. This video explains the difference between swimming and underwater treadmill. A wheelchair, for my Clark is pretty much for when we are outdoors and it is only for 1-2 hours. Clark lets me know when he wants back inside. Indoor he scoots around the house. Are you having to carry upstairs to sleep at night in your bedroom? Let us know more the reason you carry him upstairs and we may have some ideas. All sorts of ideas, so easy sew and some no-sew to protect while scooting around the house. INDOOR Scootie overalls: Our Scootie pants and overalls are best suited to protect animals that scoot on their knees or other parts of their bodies. $75 www.etsy.com/listing/183123743/indoor-protective-scootie-overalls-for?ref=marketOUTDOOR overalls: www.etsy.com/listing/192118583/outdoor-protective-scootie-overalls-for?ref=related-1 $85 Ollie’s Cape: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/incontinentdown/Olliecape.pdf Clark’s Bumpad: users.cyberport.net/%7Emilnerwm/bumpad1.html [for dogs who scoot like a frog] Tandy’s Butt Protect: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/aftercraterest/Buttprotect.htm Airy mesh panel is better than an all inclosed bag that contains humidity. www.handicappedpets.com/index.php/walkin-wheels-drag-bag.html [drag bag] |
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Post by John & Marley on Aug 24, 2016 16:54:43 GMT -7
Read your recent post on Jumpy,
First a lil about me. 10 yrs ago had a 20lb Dachshund have his 2nd surgery, after 10 weeks post op no response or rear leg movement,, @ 20 lbs I slept downstairs in a sleeping bag next to him so not to carry him up and down the stairs, but after 12 weeks + some and then more and more each week, 6+ months later walking with a gimp, swinging one leg but not stepping with it, vet said be happy best it can be,, I came up with some exercisers for him and with another 6 months walking 100 % normal and running like the wind.
{10 yrs ago was just the start of dodgerslist didnt know about it had no cold laser or acupuncture back then}
Recently 2 yrs ago this past Feb, My Marley a 18lb Dachshund went down,,, we did strict crate rest no surgery, meds only and all and he did 21 sessions of cold laser treatment. Marley has made a complete recovery 100% running and living...
At age 71 you have a big dog to carry about I used to do stairs 10 yrs ago with my two Dachshunds one was 28 lbs a beast and the one who had surgery was 20 lbs.. carried them up and down 20 + times a day. so we moved into a ranch.
Jumpy being 5 yrs old - is he his right weight, all my Dachshunds have been standards and do not see many over 25 lbs... Make sure he isnt over weight.
As for dragging himself around , - he can rub his skin raw and get infected... also will not be able to build muscles that way in his cart, make it fun for him so he likes being in it and he may improve and get stronger. The Cart offer the best chance to build muscles..
Now for why I wrote. 30 + years ago I had a 65 lb Malamute, she tried to jump a fence , fell backwards hurt her spine,,, could not walk... no use of back legs,, back 30 yrs ago it was a death sentence no carts no surgery nothing... well I was 23, young ignorant and couldnt put her to sleep , my vet was also a close friend . Kashmere the Malamute,, was happy, sadly she peed under herself we cleaned her up, she dragged herself here and there.. ending up rubbing skin raw and bleeding ( again no carts back then ) why I suggest you have Jumpy enjoy his cart, feed him in it brush him in it all the things he enjoys..Make it fun. Well some how a miracle , who knows,, over a year after Kashmere went down, she was kicking her back legs , and 2 yrs out she was standing up and walking wobbly like a drunk... eventually kinda running like a rabbit hop. but moving around. She lived for two more years after returning to walking... again this was 30+ yrs ago, no Cold Laser no acupuncture... we even didnt do massages on her or any kind of therapy.
If Cold Laser is a option in your are and in your budget or acupuncture it could give a jump start or help... Shop around for prices, my one Vet wanted $45 a session and I found a Vet offering 6 for $120.00
I have seen the impossible become reality and have heard VETS say thats all , thats the best and they were wrong.
Good Luck ask me anything if you need to
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Post by Gabriel & Jumpy on Jul 16, 2017 11:16:28 GMT -7
Another year since last post.
Jumpy is doing a tiny bit better as far as moving his legs very little when laying down... but no standing up or anywhere near it.
We carry him upstairs because we really "live" upstairs... we hardly go down. Except when I go to work and I have to take him with me to work, to an office where he is there all day long. Then we come home to upstairs..
And we are getting on in years....I wish someboby would adopt him.
I just feel so bad that I want to give him up..... but I think is best for him....
Anyway I am still going to keep him another year or so....
But I am afraid it might be too late for him to get adopted....
What do you think. I am just thinking out loud.
God bless you all
Gabriel and Jumpy
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Marjorie
Moderator~
Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,724
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Post by Marjorie on Jul 17, 2017 3:53:35 GMT -7
Oh, Gabriel, I do understand that carrying Jumpy up and down stairs must be very difficult for you. But when you say that you think adoption would be best for Jumpy, I can't see how that would be the case. I'm sure it would be very hard for him to lose his home with you. And I'm sure you would miss him greatly, too. It's wonderful that you're able to take him to work with you so he's near you all day.
Is he using his cart more often now to go for some walks?
Are you still expressing him? If so, does he stay dry in between expressing?
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Post by Gabriel & Jumpy on Jul 17, 2017 16:42:00 GMT -7
Hi Marjorie,
Well, actually the carrying around and upstairs is only a small problem. NOW. But I know that as we get older is going to get harder.
When I say that I think that adoption would be best for Jumpy I am thinking about him. Right now he only gets to use his cart about 20 min to 1/2 hour a day.. (my fault). IF HE HAD A YOUNGER, MORE OUTDOORSY PARENT then he would get more time outside on his cart. More things to do.
Then in the office he just lays on a mattress all day.... (here maybe I can let him try to use a sack... I'll try it tomorrow).
Then at home he just lays on the floor by me for a couple hours. Or in bed with his mother for an hour or so. Then sleeps in a bassinet.
I express him at 5:30 AM when we wake up, then at the office at 9:30, 12:30 and 3:30. Then when we get home at 6:00. 9:00 and 11:00. I been thinking that maybe I give him too much water.... I just lay down a bowl for him to drink from it all day. It's just next to him all the time.
He stays dry between expressing because I do so many. At night sometimes he wets (If I let him drink after 9:00.....)
He is with me most of the time. And that's hard too. I feel that I can not leave him for more than 3 hours because of the expressing. And because he stays in the bassinet when we go out and leave him at home.
I am sure I would miss him a lot.... even though I do keep myself very busy, I would miss him.
But do you think he would miss his home?? Would he not adapt to new parents quickly?? He is only 7 this August.
Do you think that he would adapt to a new home, to more activity??
My concern is that he lays around too much. Maybe somebody younger would walk him more, exercise him more, massage him more, get him more therapy...... than I do.
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Less twitching of his front leg.
