Nicole's Charlie 9/26 conservative NECK RIP

Thank you! I am Nicole and my brother is Matt. Charlie is his dog but like I said, we live together so Charlie is like my dog too. Matt is extremely stressed out about Charlie so I'm trying to relieve his stress anyway I can and becoming part of this site will be a major help - already has been. Charlie's yelps are so painful sounding they almost reduce me to tears! Anyway, thanks for the welcome!

Hi Nicole, my name is Maureen. Welcome to Dodgers List. I am sorry that Charlie is experiencing an IVDD episode.
Here is a video on how to lift and carry him to minimize movement in his spine
Lift and carry


Did the Vet tell you which discs were affected? If it is in his neck (cervical discs) then there are things you can do to help there too - neck discs are often more painful www.dodgerslist.com/literature/cervical.htm

Paula has given you great information - Pepcid can be purchased over the counter at the drugstore and can help prevent the nightmare of gastric troubles on top of the IVDD.
Charlie is lucky to have you both - you are well on your way to learning about IVDD and we will do anything that we can to help.
Keeping you in thought and prayer.

Nicole, just wanted to say hang in there. It is so sad when they are in pain. Hope you get some new medication to help control his pain.

Jean

Good morning. Yesterday we took Charlie to new vet. I'm not thrilled with the place, but it's close and what we can afford. Charlie was yelping in pain and generally unhappy while we were there. The vet had only been practicing for 4 months so I knew more about this and dealing with it than she did. She said what I've been hearing: that 50mg 2x a day of Tramadol is already a high dosage and going to 3 was not recommended for a dog of Charlie's size (14 lbs). I am frustrated because I told her that I've done research and wanted to do 50mg 3x per day. I asked her about methocarbo. muscle relaxer. She wasn't confident. I asked her to reach out to a different vet, which she did.

That vet (whom she spoke to over the phone) reiterated that 50mg 2x/day was already very high and recommended doing 25mg 3xdaily combined with the methocarbo muscle relaxer. Matt and I decided to do this:
15 lbs
methocarbo 125 mg 3x/day
Tramadol 50mg 2x/day w/25mg mid-day (so some Tram every 8 hrs).
Prednisone 2x/day (5mg) still on
pepcid ac 5mg

 The vet didn't know anything about why Pepcid AC is needed/recommended for Prednisone (yesterday's visit was not pleasant).

The visit ended with up agreeing that if Charlie's pain is not under control, we will be back for a different medication, most likely Buprenex. The vet gave Charlie a shot of Buprenex at the vet and so we did not give Tramadol.

Last night, 3:30am, I wake to Charlie's screams. I see that Matt has taken him out and he is out back to go potty. He did not yelp any more after wards. After Matt left for work, after giving him the meds, Charlie yelped about 1 hour later for a few seconds. Then, I left for work but have since returned, and he yelped once upon my return. Now, he is panting heavily (water is in his crate). I can't accept that is what is meant by "pain under control" and "comfortable".

What if he is resistent to the Tramadol? I know Buprenex is typically a feline drug. The vets never want to recommend anything stronger than Tramadol but it's a weak narcotic that's not working. I am frustrated. A different vet I spoke with mentioned hydromorphone or something else with codeine but of course, vets are hesitant.

Luckily, Charlie can still walk, eat, go potty, etc. The alarming thing is that when he's up and taking a few steps, this seems to be the only thing that relieves his pain. For example, middle of last night he was yelping for at least a minute and only stopped when Matt put him down and he was walking around to go potty. Then he walked back to his crate and slept the rest of the night. I KNOW we are supposed to carry him everywhere but it's not sensical if that seems to hurt him more. Still, thanks to this site, moderators, and others for their support.

I am very new to this myself, but I know Dobby is more vocal when he needs to potty (pee or poop) and will often settle down afterwards.
Good luck getting the right pain meds/doses for Charlie!

Please immmediately get on the phone and try to make an urgent appointment with a vet that is knowledgeable about IVDD. IVDD is obviously out of these vets' league. You can do a search on this webpage to find a neurologist in your area:
www.dodgerslist.com/literature/VetchkList.htm

You've tried your best to advocate properly on Charlies' behalf. It's not working with these vets and Charlie's pain needs to be brought under control so he can begin to heal.

Prayers that you'll be able to find a knowledgeable vet who can see Charlie quickly. Please let us know how you make out or if you encounter any difficulties.

Good Evening,

You are so right Paula about not making a vet comfortable. We shouldn't have gone their in the first place but when you're panicky, you don't think things through sometimes. But, I have what I consider to be GOOD news.

I called up Banfield Pet Hospital here in Orlando, Fl and asked the quesions from the link you provided. I spoke with the vet who right away, put me at ease with his comfort with treating this disease, and knowledge of pain medications. We made an appointment for the next day (today)and it went well.

He did a physical exam which is where we discovered that either in addition to the L1 vertebre problem or instead of, Charlie has 1, probably 2, problem neck discs! He then did an exercise where he bend charlie's hind paws over to see if Charlie put them back, which he did. Then he held him away from table and moved towards to see if Charlie reached his front paws to the table, which he did. Charlie seems hypersensitive to ANY pain and goes straight to his, which I've coined "bloody murder" screams. The vet also spoke with a neurologist/radiologist (?) and that person recommended to do 3xdaily of the meds (except for the Preds) which is more than the "textbook" prescribes for a dog of Charlie's size, BUT it obviously needed at this point. They also did a blood test to test his organs which came back fine - a little high on liver enzymes: 109 - (I think liver - maybe kidney) but said it's normal cause of the steroids.

Anyway, all in all, we are very happy with this vet, received a new x-ray, and got gabapentin prescribed (arrives tomorrow). He said to take Charlie down to 25mg from the 125 we gave him yesterday.

In total, Charlie's routine is:

Tramadol: 25mg 3x daily
Prednisone: 5mg 2x daily
Pepcid AC: 5mg 2x daily 30 mins before Pred
Methocarbamol: 1/4 tab (125mg) 3x daily
Gabapentin: .5 ml 3x daily (it's a liquid form).

The vet said the Gabapentin should help a LOT. I can't wait until we've a few days under our belt with this new method to see how he does. Vet wanted to see us back Saturday. We have an appointment at 9am. Will keep all posted. Thanks for support and don't give up to anyone out there running into walls like we felt we were!



25

Good news INDEED, Nichole. Kudos to you for not giving up and locating a vet who knows IVDD. It sure makes all the difference in the world to be supported with a good vet. A neck disc can be a bit harder to heal as the head has to move for so many things. The extra things to do for a neck disc will be very helpful in the link Sabrina gave you.

Let us know that pain is now fully under control. Do keep in mind for a 15 pound dog your vet still has room to move up to 50 mgs of tramadol 3x a day if with gabapentin Charlie still would need additional pain med help.

If you continue to find this vet is good with IVDD, then please add him to our directory to help another member out. dodgerslist.boards.net/board/10/guidelines-posting And thank you so much for helping others on the the Forum. You are our expert on finding a new vet..it can be done and there are IVDD knowledgeable vets out there, we just have to be persistent and find them. You did an excellent job.

Thanks for your encouragement; it's a silver lining in otherwise dark situation. The vet left a message w/Matt after vet spoke with radiologist. He said that Charlie's lumbar vertes seemed more 'chronic' and that the neck discs are the new injuries.

Tomorrow I am going to monitor Charlie w/new pain routine and if there's ANY yelping, I will advocate for 50mg 3x daily. Or just do it because I pretty much trust what I'm seeing from this site.

I can't check right now about xylitol and I do recall reading that but forgot to ask vet today. I do know that the vet said he didn't have the gabapentin at office but would order it and they "compounded". This is what the drug info link says about Gabapentin: "The commercially available human liquid product contains xylitol which can be toxic to dogs. It is possible to have a special formulation made at a pharmacy that does drug compounding so that it does not contain xylitol." I'm hoping that the vet knew this which is what he was implying when he spoke about compounding.

I have to share a moment that broke some of the worry and sadness for a moment. I had a 1/4 of a muscle relaxer pill in a treat waiting for Charlie. He was yelping out in pain (b/c he wouldn't eat his Tram tonight..just trying to get thru 1 more night until new routine!!) and I was trying my best to comfort him when I must have had the treat in my hand near to ground and my other dog "sniped" it from my fingers! So basically, my other dog Pepper has had her first drug ever tonight (besides flea and heartworm). I was furious at first but when I told Matt about it later, we just looked at each other and had to laugh. It was the first honest laugh between us in a while.

Gosh. I wish I had good news to report. Unfortunately, the meds just aren't quelling Charlie's pain. He's been on what was posted above and we have been vigilent about dosing times, crate rest, everything we learned here. Still, without fail, there are yelps of pain. Yesterday Charlie seemed to be doing pretty good but about 1 hr or so before his last dose of meds for the day he took a downward turn, without warning etc. The muscle spasms were horrible and the poor guy was on 2 muscle relaxers! The shakes, panting, yelping, not eating the treats with the meds on his own anymore - so we had to endure his stiffled yelps while we gently put pill in his mouth and held his mouth shut while massage his throat. He slept a few hours but this morning was not well and had his back hunched with head down (nose almost to the floor). Based on what the good vet said, he has disc issues in both his upper lumbar AND at least 2 in his neck and either one or the other or both areas hurt him. Today, Charlie took (was forced by our hands) his morning dose of meds but an hour later was yelping, panting, standing, then slowly falling over. I caught him of course to slowly lay him on his side and tried to calm him. All the classic signs of pain. We brought him to vet this morning shortly after the falling over.

This will be my last post but I want to say thank you. This site has provided my family a wealth of knowledge and we are getting the word out about prevention to everyone we know via facebook, people we see walking little dachshunds, anyone who will listen. Good luck and prayers to all experiencing this disease with their pups.

I am so sorry to hear this. Take care.