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Post by chunkymonkey on Sept 20, 2013 9:17:35 GMT -7
My mom's standard dachshund just stopped walking and was in pain on Monday 9/16/13 we rushed him to the vet and said he had two calcifications and needed immediate surgery. We couldn't afford it so he put him on
10mg of prednisone every 12 hours
50mg of tramodol every 12 hours.
He didn't mention crate resting or anything and told my mom that if in 2 weeks if he didn't get better he never would. I wanted to try adequan injections, but the vet refused and told my mom that the quality of life for a wheelchair pet was poor. He is leaning toward euthanasia.
Luckily I did a lot of research and bought him a crate Tuesday and he has been in it ever since. I contacted a friend at a cat rescue that referred me to a holistic vet Dr. Jill. She worked me in thursday 9/19/13 and she massaged his back and adjusted his neck. Then she did electro-acupuncture. He fell asleep so it seemed to relax him. She said he is very very tense and prescribed him robaxin 500mg every 12 hours. She pinched his toes and he tried to pull away a LITTLE bit, but she had to press very hard she said. He still has the ability to wag his tail a lot when he is happy and if I pinch his tail he swings it out of my hand. Anyways she told me to rub his stiff neck and do passive range of motion on his legs so that he maintains muscle tone. She also told me to massage and play with his toes. He is scheduled for his next acupuncture this weekend and two times a week on out.
I know its unrealistic, but I saw videos of dogs walking after only one session and wanted that so badly for chunky. When we got home he seemed like he "wanted" to stand, but couldn't. Back into the crate he went. He yelps in pain if you touch the wrong spot, but if you grab under his chest and behind his butt then he does't seem to mind. She said he is emptying his bladder on his own and he poops once a day just fine. He has wet bedding, but he can't go anywhere to pee. When he goes though it seems to be a lot and especially if he knows we are going to the vet he pees all over himself. Normal looking poop. He isn't eating much, but drinking tons of water. The vet is not concerned with him not eating too much because chunky needs to lose 10 lbs anyway. I know its only been 4 days, but I just want to know that he will improve. Its all I think about. I'm driving myself crazy. We ordered a pool so we can do his hydrotherapy. My mom wants to put him down because he is pain. How long will it be before he shows improvement or less pain? If he is going to be in pain forever its cruel to keep him alive, but I imagine pain in a back injury is normal and hopefully will subside soon. Can anyone please help me with any suggestions or knowledge. Please.
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Marjorie
Moderator~ 
Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,724 
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Post by Marjorie on Sept 20, 2013 10:33:08 GMT -7
Welcome to Dodgerslist. My name's Marjorie - what's yours? I know how upsetting this can be. Please know that dogs can live very happy lives, even if they never walk again. The fact that your dog still has deep pain sensation, can wag his tail and has bladder and bowel control are very good signs. Many dogs walk again on conservative care (8 weeks of crate rest). You did the very best thing for him by getting him into a crate. The first thing that needs to be done is to get Chunky Monkey's pain under control. Please immediately contact your vet and advise that Chunky Monkey is still having pain and is yelping when being touched so the pain medication can be adjusted. Tramadol has a short shelf life and should be given every 8 hours to be effective so his vet can adjust that. There should be no signs of pain from one dose of medication to the next. Signs of pain are shivering/trembling, not wanting to move much or moving gingerly, yelping, tight/tense stomach muscles. Once his pain is under control, then he can start to heal. The acupuncture is a great way to give the nerves a jump start and can be very helpful. Passive range of motion should not be done while Chunky Monkey is in pain and on meds. The pain indicates that the swelling around the disc has not gone down yet. Once your dog is off all medication and has no pain, the very, very lightest least aggressive range of motion and leg massage is necessary for paralyzed or weak legs during conservative treatment. The information highlighted in PINK pertains to a dog who can't walk. Check with your vet before starting. www.dodgerslist.com/literature/massagepassiveexercises.htmChiropractic is not recommended for dogs with IVDD. Please read this page to find out why: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/chiropractic.htmAlso do not perform any hydrotherapy while on crate rest. Also it is not recommended that you or your vet to play on his toes. The reflex will cause him to jerk his leg back and what you need to do right now is to limit his movements as much as possible. 100% STRICT crate rest 24/7 only out to potty for a full 8 weeks is the SINGLE most important thing you can do to help your dog-- it is the hallmark component of conservative treatment. Carried in and out to potty. No laps, no couch, no sleeping in bed with you, no meandering, scooting or dragging around during potty times. No baths, no chiro (aka VOM). In other words do everything you can to limit the vertebrae in the back from moving and putting pressure on the bad disc. The crate is the only surface that is firm, supportive for the spine, not inclining, always horizontal and keeps a dog from darting off at a TV doorbell and safe. The rest of the details of doing crate rest to ensure the best recovery in this excellent document: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/CrateRRP.htm The purpose of crate rest is to act as a cast of sorts to let the disc heal… only limited movement of STRICT crate rest allows that to happen…there are no meds to heal a disc. Immediate neuro improvement may or may not come during the 8 weeks of crate rest… as nerves may take more than 8 weeks to heal. Pepcid AC should be given to protect your dog from the excess acid produced by the anti-inflammatory. The FDA and manufacturer pkg insert indicate gastrointestinal problems are side effects of using anti-inflammatories. The natural defenses of the stomach to shield against stomach acid is hindered when taking anti-inflammatoriess. Serious gastrointestinal toxicity such as bleeding, ulceration, and perforation, can occur at any time, with or without warning symptoms. Please get your vet's permission to give 5 mg of Pepcid AC (generic is famotidine) 30 minutes before each dose of the anti-inflammatory. Phrase the question to your vet in this particular way: "Is there any medical reason my dog may not take Pepcid AC?" If your vet says your dog has no health issues such as liver, heart, etc to keep her from taking Pepcid AC, then do get it on board. You had mentioned Adequan. There is information about that here: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/Supplements.htmDogs with IVDD must be carried with their spines vertical, carrying both ends. Here's a video showing how to properly lift and carry: The best way for you to help your dog is by learning about his disease. Here are some links to get you started. Please click on all of them to get a good background of understanding. www.dodgerslist.com/healingindex.htmwww.dodgerslist.com/literature.htmDodgerslist has an excellent DVD available for only $3 including shipping. It's great to have on hand to show to family/friends/petsitters so they will know what they can and cannot do with your dog and how they can help: www.dodgerslist.com/store/DVDorder.htm Please don't despair. IVDD is not a death sentence. Many dogs regain use of their legs and even if they don't, their lives can be happy ones. www.dodgerslist.com/index/SDUNCANquality.htmPlease let us know what your vet says after speaking to him about Chunky Monkey's pain. And of course, if you have any additional questions or concerns, please let us know. We're here to help you and Chunky Monkey through this. All the best to you. |
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Post by chunkymonkey on Sept 20, 2013 11:12:41 GMT -7
Thank you for your response. I did mention the pain and she said if pain persists that I can give another 50mg of tramodol. But the first vet that wants to put him down said never give another tramodol. So I was confused. He is getting it every twelve so I will start giving the tramodol every 8. Should the prednisone stay at every 12? and the robaxin?
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Marjorie
Moderator~
Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,724
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Post by Marjorie on Sept 20, 2013 11:50:50 GMT -7
As for the vet who wants to put your dog down, I wouldn't listen to a thing he said! Be sure to let your second vet know that you've increased the Tramadol to every 8 hours. You can let her know that when you call to speak to her about starting the Pepcid AC to protect his tummy. The next dose of Tramadol that is given 8 hours from the last dose should have the pain under control within an hour. If it hasn't done that, be sure to contact your vet again so she can adjust all of the meds.
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Sabrina
Helpful Member 
My Charley-dog, a Dodger'sList grad enjoying life!
Posts: 471
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Post by Sabrina on Sept 20, 2013 12:01:10 GMT -7
Hi there – I’m Sabrina. I am so sorry to hear Chunky is having a disc episode, but I'm glad to hear that you are researching and have started him on crate rest. There is so much to read and learn when you first get socked with IVDD! For pain medications, the most important thing is that the pain is fully controlled dose to dose. Tramadol is a “general pain reliever. It has a short half life of 1.7 hours and may need to be prescribed at a minimum of every 8 hours.” Often times IVDD dogs need a second or even third pain medication on board to keep them pain-free dose to dose. All medicines have side-effects, but when IVDD dogs are in pain that actually hinders healing: Pain Control: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingpain.htmDrugs used to Control Pain: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/drugs.htm#paindrugsPrednisone is an anti-inflammatory, and it’s needed twice a day until it resolves the swelling and inflammation that is causing the pain; at that point it can be tapered. For some dogs this can be a week, other a month or longer: Inflammation, swelling in the spinal cord: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingsweling.htmSteroids: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/drugs.htm#steroidsIs Chunky on any kind of stomach-protector? While Chunky is on prednisone, he’s at risk for GI problems. I’m glad to hear his poo looks ok, but I’m concerned that he’s not wanting to eat much. Dogs are masters at hiding problems, and often times we don’t know that GI problems are going on until they are advancing to a dangerous stage. For all dogs on anti-inflammatories, Dodger’s List urges you to ask your vet: “Is there any medical reason my dog may not take Pepcid AC?”Medications used - www.dodgerslist.com/literature/IVDDcourse/medications_used.htmlWhen my dog was first diagnosed, he was on methocarbamol (generic of robaxin) four times a day, so do check with the prescribing vet and see if this can be given to Chunky more frequently. This medicine is to control muscle spasms: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/drugs.htm#robaxinIf after the vet adjusts Chunky’s meds he’s still in pain, ask about adding Gabapentin: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/drugs.htm#NeurontinPlease call your vet(s) today about the pain meds and Pepcid AC. With the proper meds, Chunky should be completely pain-free dose to dose. ))Hugs!(( - Sabrina |
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PaulaM
Moderator. 
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,935
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Post by PaulaM on Sept 20, 2013 12:14:28 GMT -7
My name is Paula what is yours? You are not alone in the fact that it appears that both of your vets are not comfortable in treatment a disc episode. Not all vets can know every single disease for every species they treat (dogs, cat, birds, reptile, farm animals). But you have the chance to know one disease very well. Euthansia just is not a treatment for disc disease. Dogs do and can live with the disease. My Clark is just an example of many who thrive even if they have a wheelchair. With the ability to still wag his tail due to being happy, makes Chunky likely a candidate to recover. Hang in there with Chunky and help your mom think positive too. Can you clarify for us if you are over 18. Are you the care giver for Chunky or your mother? If your mother is the caregiver, can she join us on the forum, too? Glad to hear you ARE reading and now are giving true conservative treatment with 100% STRICT rest. Can you and your mother start on our main website with "Overview: the essentials" yellow button it will give you the degree of understanding you need right away…. as time permits continue to read all the orange buttons and the blue button "Disc Disease 101 core readings" to complete your education. Here is the link www.dodgerslist.com/healingindex.htmSo to get things right for Chunky ASAP today, see if you can make it a priority to address these things. 1. I do not believe he has bladder control. Do you carry him out every 3-4 hours to allow him to pee on his own. If he does not have bladder control you'd need to express every 2-3 hours while on pred. This is a health issue to maintain the bladder and avoid urinary tract infections. Can you verify for us that he has bladder control with the sniff and pee test. The only way for us humans to know if there is bladder control is with the sniff and pee test. Carry outdoors, set on an old pee spot to sniff it. See if urine is then released. Make sure the sling or your hands are not on the tummy area as that can press on the bladder. If urine comes out after sniffing, bladder control is returning. You should do a quick express check to verify there is full voiding until you are certain it is consistently happening. Let us know what you observe. If it turns out no bladder control, you'd need a hands on top of your hands expressing lesson. You will get a lot more out of the lesson by viewing and reviewing these tips: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/Expressing.htm2. Read about tramadol and strongly advocate for using it at least 3x a day. The Veterinary Anesthesia & Analgesia Support Group explain Tramadol: vasg.org/t_drugs.htm Your vets still have options to get pain in control they are not yet using. Pepcid AC is needed to protect the stomach from using Prednisone. 3. Strict rest means not touching the back or neck: no massage, no adjustments, no playing with the toes, no hydrotherapy. Acupuncture is good. At this point you want to be doing EVERYTHING possible to reduce movement of the spine in order to protect the healing disc. 4. Think positive, give Chunky the time he needs to heal his disc (8 weeks) and let his nerves self heal (think in terms of months). But have no patience with pain. Stay in contact with the vet about signs of pain so meds can be further tweaked. 5. Consider finding a vet who knows IVDD and can support you with this disc episode and care for Chunky for the rest of his life. Hopefully your two vets will be open to learning what you are learning here, if not time to move on. How to go about finding a new vet: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/VetchkList.htm |
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Post by chunkymonkey on Sept 20, 2013 19:39:03 GMT -7
My name is Tawni. Thank you all for your replies. I gave him his dose of tramoldol and it seems to work wonders. He is wagging his tail, barking, and trying to beg for food from inside the cage. He ate all his food today, but he is on a strict diet of boiled chicken because the vet wants his weight down and is not eating his kibble. We will be adding some type of supplement she suggested to make sure he is getting everything he needs. I am 23 years old and I am as of now the primary care giver of Chunky. My husband and I live with my mom while saving for a house and had to intervene because I could not see him be put to sleep. She took everything the vet said at face value, but I wanted a second opinion for something so serious. I'm glad the second vet thinks he can get better and lead a happy life. He just went pee so I will have to get back to you on if he sniffs and pees. My dad claims to have seen him kicking his back legs today, but I am not sure how reliable my dad is so I don't want to get my hopes up. I am glad Chunky is feeling better since his tail is going nonstop.
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Marjorie
Moderator~
Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,724
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Post by Marjorie on Sept 20, 2013 20:06:48 GMT -7
I'm so glad that he's feeling better, Tawni. Sometimes it just takes a little tweaking of the medication to get it right.
Just a word of caution about changing his diet. Now is not the best time to change his food as his body has a lot of repair work to do so he needs his normal food rations. After crate rest is over would be the time to start a diet to slowly bring down his weight. Also, if you change his diet now, it would be difficult, if he starts to show any GI tract problems, to know whether it's from the change in diet or from the side effects of medication. Speaking of those side effects, please be sure to include the Pepcid AC.
Kudos to you for getting that second opinion and for looking online for more answers. Chunky is lucky to have you in his corner!
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,935
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Post by PaulaM on Sept 20, 2013 20:35:45 GMT -7
Tawni, Chunky is already showing likely red flag signs from Pred…of not wanting to eat his kibble. I would get 5mg Pepcid AC (famotidine) on board asap every 12 hours. Then keep the vet in the loop. Pepcid AC is a generally safe over-the-counter suppressor of stomach acid production for healthy dogs. Dogs don't speak up at first signs of trouble like a person would. By the time we notice black or red blood in the stools, things can quickly go from bleeding ulcers to a life threatening perforated stomach. We ask that all members read about each med their dog is on or may take as a safety measure. This directory is in alpha order: www.marvistavet.com/html/pharmacy_center.html Now is not the time to go on a diet while Chunky's body is busy doing repair jobs. A strict diet of boiled chicken is not a balanced meal…lacks the minerals, vitamins contained in kibble. Let us know you have Pepcid AC on board and if Chunky is starting to eat his kibble again. If he is still not interested in kibble which you may top with 1-2 teaspoons of chicken to enhance the flavor, let us know. It may be that Chunky needs double stomach protection by adding sucralfate to the Pepcid AC. 10mg of prednisone every 12 hours 50mg of tramodol every 8 hours robaxin 500mg every 12 hours. |
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Post by chunkymonkey on Sept 22, 2013 19:20:56 GMT -7
Hey there. So chunky is now on Pepcid AC and Gas-X per vet because she thinks he has gas bubbles. He never really ate kibble and only really ate the scraps my dad fed him. Thats why he is so overweight. So he didnt really have a set diet. His appetite is back now. He even got to the point when we put him out to potty he could hold his weight for 3 seconds on his own. But his right leg seems weaker than his left  is that ok? Today was his next apt with the vet for acupuncture and he even got cold laser therapy. He was more sensitive to the electricity in the acupuncture this time and had to go on a lower setting. The vet said that is a good sign that he is getting more feeling back and his tail was going full speed. During cold laser he looked so groggy and comfy. He even kept letting out stinky farts. That is why the vet suggested gas-x because his gas bubbles may be causing discomfort. But for some reason today he seems exceptionally sore and every touch makes his yelp, this is what happened last time he had acupuncture and then the next day he was so much better, so I am hoping that he just becomes sore after the acupuncture. It may also have to do with the fact that he spit out a half eaten med this am and we couldnt tell if it was prednisone or tramadol so we didn't want to double dose. It is likely it was his tramadol is he was in an abnormal amount of pain today. Is it typical to feel sore after acupuncture? |
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Sabrina
Helpful Member
My Charley-dog, a Dodger'sList grad enjoying life!
Posts: 471
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Post by Sabrina on Sept 22, 2013 21:09:11 GMT -7
Hi Tawni - so glad to hear stomach protection is on board and that Chunky's appetite is back! Are his poops ok? To be sure that my dog was getting all his meds (and boy, in the beginning there were so many to keep track of!), I would line them all up on the counter, and wrap each one in a bit of "mushy" food (I used no-salt, tinned in water sardines because my dog loves them). Then I gave them to him one at a time. That way, if one didn't get swallowed I knew which one. Tramadol is really bitter, and prednisone doesn't taste good, either. For those I'd drop the pill into the middle of some mooshed sardine (totally gross, I know) and then squish the sardine up around the pill so that all the medicine was inside. Be careful of the hand you use to touch the pills and don't use that to touch the outside of the "treat/pill ball" Hopefully that might help you get all Chunky's meds in him! When Chunky is out for potty breaks, can he sniff an old pee spot and then pee? (showing you he has bladder control?) My Charley is still weaker on one side - I don't think that's uncommon. Also for potty times, are you using any sort of "sling" to support Chunky? www.dodgerslist.com/literature/slingwalk.jpgwww.dodgerslist.com/literature/cratesupplies/Figure8.jpgDid Chunky's pain diminish after his second dose of tramadol today? I don't know enough about acupuncture to advise you on that, I'm sure others will be by to help you out with that. ))Hugs!(( - Sabrina |
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Post by Pauliana on Sept 22, 2013 21:13:41 GMT -7
Hi Tawni,
Sounds to me like he can't tolerate the electro acupuncture. I would try him on regular acupuncture and see if he reacts the same way.. I haven't heard of other members complaining about pain after acupuncture. Yelping at every touch sounds like nerve pain to me.. I have had that and I would discuss this with his Vet right away and advocate some changes to his pain meds.. I would add Gabapentin as it is very effective with nerve pain and works very well with Tramadol.
Let us know what the Vet says.
Praying for Chunky Monkey..
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Post by chunkymonkey on Sept 22, 2013 22:03:10 GMT -7
Thank you for all your help. He finally fell asleep after about two hours. I have tried all the tricks with his pills and now he knows and picks his food apart looking for them even tasty food he used to just swallow in one gulp. Im glad he finally is sleeping. He pees when I put him outside on his spot. Most of the time he wets his pads because he pees so often due to prednisone.
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Marjorie
Moderator~
Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,724
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Post by Marjorie on Sept 23, 2013 6:01:56 GMT -7
While Chunky Monkey's on the Prednisone, you'll need to take him out every 2-3 hours to urinate to prevent him urinating in his crate. Since he's such a smart boy with his pills, you might want to try using a pill gun. They can be purchased at pet stores and I found it very helpful with one of my cats.
Acupuncture should never be painful and if it is causing pain, then it's not being done correctly. I had one idiot vet put the electro-acupuncture too high on Jeremy once and his paralyzed legs were jumping up and down on the table, but even with that, he wasn't sore the next day. I agree with Pauliana that it sounds like nerve pain. Will keep an eye out to see what the vet says about that.
Jeremy's right leg has always been worse than his left leg, even two years after surgery. He needs to wear a shoe on that foot because he drags it a bit. Great that Chunky can hold his weight, even if it's only a few seconds.
All the best to you and Chunky.
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StevieLuv
Helpful Member
Conservative Treatment 3x. It really does work!
Posts: 1,335
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Post by StevieLuv on Sept 23, 2013 10:28:10 GMT -7
When I still worked in the Vet Hospital we used this technique to pill the extremely suspicious dogs Pilling Sometimes the "3 treat technique" works to get pills into suspicious little dogs. This basically plays up to their greedy need to get all of the treats before someone else does, or you change your mind. You need 3 treats that can hide a pill, like little balls of wet dog food, or cheese or peanut butter (one member swears by cream cheese!) put the medication in the second treat, and make sure he knows that you have 3 yummy incredibly desireable treats in your hand. Give the first treat with no meds in it suspicions allayed ) then give the second treat (meds in) and rush the third treat right on it's heels - they are usually so busy trying to hork it all down before you change your mind that they don't even notice that one had a pill. Works even better if you have more than one dog ( oh horrors-competition!) I have even used the perceived competition to help out, by using 4 treats, the extra one has no meds and is given to the other dog- it is amazing how fast the dog that needs the meds will snarf up the remaining 3! Hope this helps  |
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is that ok? Today was his next apt with the vet for acupuncture and he even got cold laser therapy. He was more sensitive to the electricity in the acupuncture this time and had to go on a lower setting. The vet said that is a good sign that he is getting more feeling back and his tail was going full speed. During cold laser he looked so groggy and comfy. He even kept letting out stinky farts. That is why the vet suggested gas-x because his gas bubbles may be causing discomfort. But for some reason today he seems exceptionally sore and every touch makes his yelp, this is what happened last time he had acupuncture and then the next day he was so much better, so I am hoping that he just becomes sore after the acupuncture. It may also have to do with the fact that he spit out a half eaten med this am and we couldnt tell if it was prednisone or tramadol so we didn't want to double dose. It is likely it was his tramadol is he was in an abnormal amount of pain today. Is it typical to feel sore after acupuncture?
