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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2013 8:38:23 GMT -7
It's not just the long and low dogs that have back problems! My shetland sheepdog Tommy was diagnosed with IVDD last year after an incident where he had extreme weakness and lack of reflexes in his back legs. It's unclear what caused it... he was fine when I put him in his crate, and looked broken when he came out. We did 8 weeks of rest and medications, then rehabilitated him and re-built muscle mass. Astonishingly, with the blessing of the othopedic vet and his physical therapist, he was able to return to agility. We had a fantastic summer camping, hiking, competing, and running faster than ever.  On 8/24 during an agility run, he came down the A-frame (the second time he goes over it on the video) and rolled on his shoulder. He did it again on the teeter and refused to jump the last jump. He started limping on his right front leg after the run. Another evaluation showed symptoms of IVDD again, this time in his neck. He is now retired from his agility career. A week and a half later he is on methocabamal and metacam and crate rest, but still showing pretty serious symptoms and very wobbly. We have another appointment with the vet next week to check progress and decide on further action. I'm editing to add a couple of questions: 1. Tommy insists that there is nothing wrong and that he is fine. He is an extremely high energy, active dog, and he has always spun in his crate when excited or frustrated. (It's a common sheltie/herding dog thing.) Even if I put him in a tiny crate, he will bend himself into a macaroni just to spin. Any suggestions to minimize this? 2. One of the things I regret not teaching him is how to poop on leash. Do I just wait it out? Or can I let him out twice a day to go? He does go quickly when he is out loose. |
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PaulaM
Moderator. 
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
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Post by PaulaM on Sept 4, 2013 11:21:38 GMT -7
Jen, I'm so sorry your vet did not explain that Tommy was born with a degenerative disease and with the diagnosis of IVDD, his agility career should have ended with the first disc episode. Zig zag running, jumping all put stress on discs that are prematurely aging. What are the dose in mg's and the frequency you give the meds? Metacam is a NSAID and Tommy's stomach has no protection. The FDA and manufacturer pkg insert indicate gastrointestinal problems are side effects of using NSAIDs. The natural defenses of the stomach to shield against stomach acid is hindered when taking NSAIDs. Serious gastrointestinal toxicity such as bleeding, ulceration, and perforation, can occur at any time, with or without warning symptoms. Phrase the question to your vet this particular way:" Is there a medical/health reason for my dog not to take Pepcid?" If there is no reason, we follow vets who are proactive in stomach protection by giving doxies 5mg Pepcid (famotidine) 30 minutes before the NSAID. This directory is in alpha order… a good place to educate yourself on all of Tommy's meds: www.marvistavet.com/html/pharmacy_center.htmThese are the extra things you can do for a neck disc:http://www.dodgerslist.com/literature/cervical.htm If you are seeing any hint of pain (shivering, yelping, not bearing weight on front paws, holding head high or nose to the ground, please adovcate for the pain meds that are mentioned on that page. Pain deters the entire healing process. The crate should be only large enough to stand up, turn around and fully stretch out his legs. If he is being rambuntious in his recovery suite, then you may need to investigate calmers so he can relax and rest. Using any oral calmer in combination with a Pheromone diffuser seems to work best. It takes several days for these to start working - it isn't immediate but they are a much better option if you can avoid heavy duty prescription sedatives. Of course always keep your vet in the loop on all things you give your dog. Farnum's Comfort Zone with D.A.P. www.petcomfortzone.com/dogs.html [pheromone diffuser] with one oral calmer from below: Oral calmers: 1) ANXITANE® S chewable tabs contain 50 mg L-Theanine, an amino acid that acts neurologically to help keep dogs calm, relaxed www.virbacvet.com/products/detail/anxitane-l-theanine-chewable-tablets/behavioral-health 2) Composure Soft Chews are colostrum based like calming mother's milk and contain 21 mg of L-Theanine. www.vetriscience.com/composure-soft-dogs-MD-LD.php [Composure] 3) Rescue Remedy is a liquid herb combo to help with relaxation www.bachrescueremedypet.com Other brands may be available in your area… just shop by the active ingredient(s) on the label. At potty time he either needs to be on a 6 foot leash + harness while you stand in one spot to limit the number of footsteps he takes. A tall expen in the grass is another option to limit his footsteps and to let him see a physical barrier so he knows no sniff fests are going to happen. This page has what you need to get up to speed with the disease Tommy has so you can care for him and protect him not just now during this episode but also in the many years to come.http://www.dodgerslist.com/healingindex.htm I highly recommend adding this comprehensive "must-have" $3 DVD on IVDD to your arsenal of educational resources. Friends, family and those who will be caring for your dog should also watch this DVD; plus don't forget to order one DVD for your vet www.dodgerslist.com/literature/litorder.htmDo let us know about his meds, any pain and that you have a stomach protector now on board. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2013 12:04:09 GMT -7
We did discuss whether or not to return to agility after the last time. The decision was made with the risks in mind. He is truly a working dog that needs a lot of mental stimulation and physical exercise to keep him from becoming self destructive or engaging in OCD like behaviors (the spinning is one of many). He may need long term pharmacological intervention like Prozac or a sedative if he is not able to do something that keeps him engaged and active. I'll discuss that with the vet. The metacam is 15cc a day (edit - not 15cc... the syringe is marked for 15 pound dose). I will ask about Pepcid... My 13 year old dog was given Pepcid when he was on tramadol for his hips so I'm not sure why Tommy wasn't put on it. Methocarbamol is 125mg every 12 hours. He will be getting laser therapy. He is wearing a Back On Track jacket at night (seriously love this product). I've used the DAP and rescue remedy for another dog (didn't help that dog) but I will give them a try with Tommy. I can't even work with my other dog within earshot of Tommy because the knowledge that there is a clicker in my hand sends him into a frenzy. I even have to close all the windows when I take my puppy outside because he absolutely rages that she gets to play and he doesn't. |
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,935
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Post by PaulaM on Sept 4, 2013 12:12:22 GMT -7
One of our members had to change from agility to nose work activities with her IVDD dog. That might be something to investigate.
So is his pain fully under control with methocarbamol alone?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2013 13:12:41 GMT -7
I will look into nosework and see if that's something we might do in the future. Thanks.
His pain does seem to be under control with metacam and methocarbamal. He's never cried or whimpered. A week ago he could not look up or turn his head to the right. Right now I'm watching him scratch his ear with a back paw and then he got up and did a full body shake. He is limping on his right front but I'm not sure if that's from pain or loss of function.
I made his exercise pen a little smaller based on the crate rest info here. I was using 6 panels and reduced it down to 5.
Lots of good info here. Thank you! I have a lot to talk about with my vet.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,935
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Post by PaulaM on Sept 5, 2013 8:03:08 GMT -7
Not wanting to bear weight evidenced by limping IS a sign of pain, do discuss tweaking his pain meds to allow full comfort. Let us know what your vet says.
Tommy is going in a good direction of healing in several of the phases: less pain with moving head but still not wanting to bear weight, his neck disc is underway in forming good secure scar tissue to be completed by the end of 8 weeks. Do let us know his stomach is protected with Pepcid AC.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2013 8:45:23 GMT -7
Now that I've been reading up on it, I wonder if there may have been symptoms even years before his first big episode - his reluctance to jump up onto the couch without turning in a circle first and putting his head down before jumping (despite having no problems jumping jumps and having two full sets of x-rays clearing his hips, shoulders, and elbows), his occasional reluctance to stand up on his back legs to reach for something (attributed to muscle soreness), maybe even the lameness he had in his right front leg two years ago (again, attributed to muscle soreness), his inability to spin clockwise without adding a leap (figured I just trained it that way by accident with bad timing with the clicker when I trained it).
I had to switch from x-pen to crate because today he felt good enough to do his leaping straight in the air bouncing in excitement thing as I walked up to him with breakfast. Honestly, the 8 weeks of crate rest is going to be the easy part. I'm already planning for how to block furniture, plan for ramps, and how to keep a 10 month old puppy who outweighs him by 5 pounds from slamming him - I'll have to make a schedule for when each dog gets to hang out with the people.
I started the Pepcid this morning.
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StevieLuv
Helpful Member 
Conservative Treatment 3x. It really does work!
Posts: 1,335 
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Post by StevieLuv on Sept 5, 2013 10:14:06 GMT -7
We had a Border Collie that had to be crate rested for 8 weeks many years ago - what fun that was. Nosework saved everyone's sanity  |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2013 7:45:20 GMT -7
As an update - rescue remedy and DAP have done nothing to prevent the spinning in his crate. If I use a smaller crate he will bend his back into a U to spin, so that's a more dangerous option. He has a thundershirt that I know calms him somewhat, but I'm hesitant to use that since it works by whole body pressure.
Short of Xanax to knock him out or suspending him from the ceiling so his feet are off the ground, I'm out of ideas.
Also I'm realizing that the moderators boldface symptoms. In my post a few days ago I mentioned a full body shake. That wasn't trembling or pain. That was the nose to tail shake like a dog does after he's had a good roll in something or is wet.
We have a vet visit Tuesday (it's a new vet, highly recommended and that was the soonest appointment they had).
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,935
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Post by PaulaM on Sept 7, 2013 8:15:08 GMT -7
Jen, if he needs an Rx sedative to help him relax, then he needs to take one. Good job on getting Pepcid AC on board!! Being able to do a full body shake tells us that he is not in pain to be able to do that…so that was a good sign that pain control med is over all doing a pretty good job. The limping tells, however, us that there is still some pain when bearing weight on that leg as likely one of the nerve roots coming off the spinal cord is being compressed. Dr. Isaacs explains more about root signature pain www.dodgerslist.com/neurocorner2/rootsignature.htm If he is still not wanting to bear weight on his leg, I would report that and advocate for full pain control by adding in Tramadol with the methocarbamol. Let us know what the vet says. |
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Post by Linda Stowe on Sept 8, 2013 18:25:18 GMT -7
Jen, I think some have done Rally Obedience with IVDD dogs too.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2013 5:23:13 GMT -7
Is all jumping off the table? Tommy has his Rally Excellent title. We would have to do three 8-inch jumps in a day for the next level. Edit - thinking about the way he heels... He walks in heel with his head turned and up and his eyes on my face. I am guessing that would be even worse than the jumping! Not that we have to compete or anything. He's really happy to just train stuff.  |
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Post by natureluva on Sept 9, 2013 6:52:49 GMT -7
Hi there, just jumping in here. Is Tommy still limping on his right foot (which would be a sign of pain)? If so, you may wish to ask your vet for an additional pain medication called Gabapentin (Neurontin). It is frequently used in cervical IVDD cases and is very effective.
Also, I recommend trying Composure Soft Chews with your vet's permission. They are colostrum based chews which give the same calming effect as a mother's milk. Worth a shot, works well with my dogs.
Best wishes, ~Lisa
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2013 7:40:59 GMT -7
We're switching vets so the first appointment we have is tomorrow. Good thing since I'm on my last methocarbamal pill! He's limping less but yes, still limping. I have a big list of questions for her.
We've come up with a routine to minimize the spinning. During the evening he goes in a plastic crate near me. For some reason he goes nuts in the ex-pen when I get up to do something, but is calm in the plastic crate. He also doesn't try to get the other dog to play with him when he's in the crate... When he's in the pen he bows at her and spins and barks to get her attention. Not saying the spinning never happens but it's less now.
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Post by Pauliana on Sept 9, 2013 20:43:48 GMT -7
Hi Jen,
Glad to hear that handsome Tommy is calmer in the plastic crate.. Sometimes we have to experiment with different crate styles until we find what works.. It's good to have more than one, to ease the boredom also.
Let us know how it goes with the new Vet..
Healing thoughts over the miles..
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2013 14:10:30 GMT -7
Love the new vet.
He's looking good but does still have pain in his neck and is limping on his right front.
New meds:
Continue methocarbamol 125mg 2x day
Continue metacam until it runs out and then reevaluate how he is doing
Continue Pepcid
Gabapentin 25mg 1x day at night for a week to let him acclimate to it and then 2x a day. She thinks the drowsiness may reduce the spinning in the crate.
Next week we start laser therapy 3x a week.
I was there a full hour talking to the vet and the technician who does the laser therapy. They answered every single question I had, really took the time to get a full history, and even cut up the methocarbamol pills! (Seriously that's awesome of them.)
Also they have an emergency answering service and will meet you at the clinic 24/7 in a crisis.
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Post by natureluva on Sept 10, 2013 16:03:29 GMT -7
My goodness, sounds like you've hit the jackpot as far as vets go! How wonderful. Please let us know how Tommy does on the Gabapentin. Hopefully that will control his pain more fully.
Laser therapy is excellent at reducing inflammation and stimulating the nerves to heal and cellular activity. Glad to hear that he'll be getting it.
We look forward to your next update. Best wishes, ~Lisa
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2013 17:09:45 GMT -7
He has a bump on his lower eyelid. It had been there a couple of weeks but his back problems overshadowed it.
It all of a sudden got bigger on Thursday. Grew a little by Saturday. Today it's about the size of a small blueberry (like a wild blueberry, not a big mutant factory farmed one).
The vet looked at it and feels like it's doubled in size in the last week so she wants to take it off.
He'll stay the night Wednesday after his laser treatment and on Thursday they will twilight him and numb it and freeze it off.
On the plus side, his limping and back seem so much better since starting the gabapentin last week. We had an appointment with the physical therapist on Thursday and his range of motion (including full forward extension) is pain free and he has no pain on palpation. He has sensation in all legs and reacts to pain, but when moving, he doesn't fully extend the right front leg on his own. The limp is still there but it is very slight at a walk and trot. When moving through grass he prefers a hopping canter leading with his left. Except for that reevaluation, still 100% crate rest until 10/19.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,935
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Post by PaulaM on Sept 16, 2013 19:59:48 GMT -7
Sorry to hear about the growth. Is there anyway to wait until graduation day to deal with it? The priority is the early healing disc. I don't know what twilight means. A dog's primary defense against further disc extrusion is dependent upon adequate control over the trunk muscles – this defense is eliminated with anesthesia.
Trotting, cantering are way too much movement during conservative treatment. Taking a very, very few footsteps is all that should be allowed at potty times. The entire focus with conservative treatment is limited movement of the body so that the disc that is trying to form good secure scar tissue does not retear require crate rest to start all over again.. Tommy is going is such a good direction of healing and it should continue if there is 100% STRICT crate rest.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2013 20:25:05 GMT -7
This was at the PT's office. She wanted to see his natural movement unrestricted and off leash. The arena had agility equipment that he is drawn to, so we moved outside.
Twilight is just knocked out a little like they do for dental in people.
The vet is concerned that it may not be benign so it's coming off.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,935
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Post by PaulaM on Sept 16, 2013 20:37:33 GMT -7
This is where you would step in to protect Tommy from those who do not understand disc disease by saying there will be no trotting or cantering, his disc is still quite vulnerable to tearing at this point, the focus is on limited movement for the remainder of the 8 weeks. No information of value would have been learned only subjecting Tommy's disc to danger. Dr. Nancy Kay, DVM, ACVIM is right on target in regard to our dog's disease (IVDD) when she wrote the following. It goes for vets, PT persons or any other person caring for your dog. "Gone are the days when you simply followed your vet's orders and asked few, if any questions. The vet is now a member of your dog's health-care team, and you get to be the team captain!" www.speakingforspot.com/PDF/Medical%20Advocacy%20101.pdf |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2013 5:14:07 GMT -7
Not going to argue.
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Post by Linda Stowe on Sept 17, 2013 11:52:15 GMT -7
Hi Jen I'm sorry to hear that Tommy needs to have the growth taken off during his recovery. I certainly hope its benign. I'm sure your vet will be very careful of the back knowing he has IVDD and is now experiencing an episode. When dogs go under, risk is increased. The dog loses all muscle tone and support. If the surgical team is not careful, lifting or turning the dog the wrong way could potentially cause a secondary disc injury. It is rare but it can happen. www.dodgerslist.com/literature/IVDDcourse/precautions.htmlJust be sure everyone from the receptionist to the surgical tech knows to be very careful. When I had an IVDD dog go to the vet for anything and the tech needed to handle them, I was always making sure they knew that dog had a back problem. I'm sure they already knew it and were being careful, but like most IVDD owners I was very paranoid. LOL Again, thinking of you and Tommy and hope everything turns out OK. |
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