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Post by Ana & Lily on Aug 7, 2021 11:00:37 GMT -7
Incident 8/2/21 - Rough play with brothers, yelped, normal yelp. No pain after dinner. Went to bed. 8/3/21 - normal morning walk, no issues. Evening 6 pm noticed right hind leg dragging, still moving left leg. Rapidly deteriorated. Stupidly I took her to Emergency ER. No help - 16 hours wait. Came home. Let her rest. 8/4/21 - Found holistic vet - took her there. Examined, with no response to the back legs. Did acupuncture and laser therapy - she had movement and felt better, we came home and she rested felt good, but back to no movement the next day. 8/5/21 - Took her in for second examination and Doctor called to say she responded to simple commands, movement, good sign but very much not out of the woods. I told doctor I found this group and I am going to do the conservative 8 weeks crate life. She said she would still like to see Lily weekly for acupuncture. I am not sure I want to do that - cost... $$$$... 8/6 - now - Lily is comfortable. Appetite is great. Peeing/poop are normal. I got all her supplies in, except for the sling so for now, she's peeing/pooping in pee pads in crate and I am cleaning her up every 4 hours to maintain healthy skin/no UTI etc. Food is the same - she's commercial raw fed Supplements: Nupro joint and immunity support, Super Snouts Urinary Support, ACV (apple cider vinegar), Charlotte's Web CBD oil (chicken flavoured) and Hip/Joint Chews. SHe also gets a fish oil supplement and freeze dried minnows for treats. Medications: C carprofen - 25 mg 3/4 per day and also a Chinese herbal - Spine Lithe 500 mg 2x per day. Lily - mini dachshund - 8 lbs
[Moderator's note: please do not modify
8lbs 5.5 y.o.
Carprofen as of 8/4: 25mgs ?/day for 14 days, then 8/18 test SToP
Spine Lithe Chinese herbal 500 2x per day
NOTE: can prevent the function of NSAIDS or make their side effects worse:
1. Chuan Xiong (Ligusticum) aka Lovage
2. ginseng
3. licorice root
needs GI tract protector, Pepcid AC, on board w/CARPROFEN! ]
Do I have hope here that she will be able to walk again? Im extremely worried. So many have told me to put her down to save the rest of my pack - I have 4 dachshunds. They're my life. If I had children, I would do anything to help them, and so my doxies are my children. I am not putting her down just because she hurt her back. I am wanting to do the best that I can for her. If conservative efforts don't work, would it be too late to do the surgery? Thoughts? Thank you! Ana |
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Post by Romy & Frankie on Aug 7, 2021 13:59:10 GMT -7
Welcome to Dodgerslist, Ana. We are glad you’ve joined us all. We’ve got valuable information we’ve learned from the vets Dodgerslist consults with and our own experiences with IVDD since 2002 to share with you! Learn more about us and how we team up with veterinarians:
I am sorry you had such a bad experience at the emergency vet. It wasn't stupid to take her there. Often people have good experiences with ER vets.
Disc disease is not a death sentence! There is no reason to even consider putting her down. Struggling with quality of life questions? Re-think things:
Is Lily currently on Very Strict crate rest? The crate rest for dogs being treated conservatively is very, very strict. The dog should be in the crate 24/7, for 8 weeks out only for pottying and necessary vet visits. It is the immobility enforced by crate rest that helps the disc to heal. STRICT means: - no laps - no couches - no baths - no sleeping with you - no dragging or meandering at potty times
We always use the analogy of a broken arm when talking about the need for very strict crate rest. A broken arm is set and put in a cast to immobilize the arm. The immobility allows the broken bone to heal. We cannot put a cast on a dog's spine, so we use the crate to keep the dog from too much movement which allows the disc to heal. We have information on crate rest here:
IVDD is typically painful . You mention that Lily is comfortable, although she is not on any pain meds. Carpfofen, like all anti-inflammatories, can relieve the pain of IVDD by reducing swelling in the spinal cord which causes the pain. This can take up to 30 days. While the anti-inflammatory is doing its work, pain meds are usually prescribed. These are the signs of pain to look for; ☐shivering, trembling ☐yelping when picked up or moved ☐reluctant to move much in crate such as shift positions or slow to move ☐tight tense tummy ☐can’t find a comfortable position ☐Arched back ☐ Holding front or back leg flamingo style not wanting to bear weight ☐head held high or nose to the ground ☐Not their normal perky selves? Full pain relief is expected in 1 hour of taking pain meds and stays that way between doses. If you see of these signs of pain, please let the vet know right away so pain meds can be added.
For how long will she be on the Carprofen? Could you clarity as to how often per day?
All anti-inflammtories cause excess stomach acid which can lead to serious stomach damage. To prevent this damage a stomach protector like Pepcid AC is necessary. Ask the vet if your dog has any health issues to prevent use of Pepcid AC (famotidine)? (doesn’t need it, we wait til there is problem…are NOT answers to your question!) If you get a “no health” issues answer, then go to the grocery store to purchase over the counter Pepcid AC containing one single active ingredient (famotidine)
canigivemydog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/can-i-give-my-dog-pepcid-ac-300x300.jpg
The typical dose of Pepcid AC (famotidine) for dogs is 0.44mg per pound, 30 mins before the anti-inflammatory and thereafter every 12 hours for as long as your dog is on the anti-inflammatory.
Currently can Lily wobbly walk? move the legs at all? or wag the tail when you specifically do some happy talk? Sometimes during an IVDD episode a dog will lose bladder control. The way we know a dog has bladder control is with the sniff and pee test. Carry Lily to an old pee spot. If she snifs and then pees she has bladder control. If she cannot do this she probably does not have bladder control. A wet pee pad or leaking when picked up is usually caused by an overflowing bladder. An overflowing bladder is not a good thing. Overflowing can lead to a urinary tract infections and all the overstretching can permanently ruin bladder tone. Overflowing means the dog's bladder needs to be manually expressed so the dog stays dry.
Expressing is a matter of physics. We put pressure on the bladder greater than the strength of the urinary sphincter to push the urine out. Expressing can be tricky to learn. Start by getting a hands-on lesson from your vet. We have more info on expressing here:
Chinese meds are made up of numerous different herbs. Herbs can cause side effects and can have contraindications with other meds. Check with the vet if any of the ingredients in Spine Lithe may have contraindications with Carprofen.
Acupuncture can be helpful form of therapy for IVDD dogs. However, transporting a dog during an IVDD episode can be a risk. Consider the benefits versus the risks of transporting Lily for acupuncture as well as the cost.
Lily may walk again. It is much too early in the recovery process to tell. We have some information on conservative treatment vs surgery at the link below:
It is very scary when our dogs are diagnosed with IVDD. It becomes less so when we learn all we can about the disease. We have a lot more information on our main website: Use the search bar at the top of our main web page to search for individual topics.
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Post by Ana & Lily on Aug 10, 2021 18:06:11 GMT -7
What is the dosage for the Pepcid? I don’t know how much to give her. Also, she hasn’t pooped since yesterday. I tried several times but it’s not coming out. She’s peeing ok. She can stand but not move. I’m just very exhausted as I also take care of my mom is hospice, so I’ve been zzzz. Thank you
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PaulaM
Moderator. 
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,536
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Post by PaulaM on Aug 10, 2021 20:39:31 GMT -7
Ana, the usual dose of Pepcid AC (with single active ingredient) for an 8 lbs dog is 5mgs twice a day (every 12 hrs. Did you ask your vet if Lily has any health issues to keep her from taking Pepcid AC?Mar Vista Vet reports:
Pepcid AC has a very limited potential for side effects, the reason of release to over-the-counter status. The dose of famotidine MAY REQUIRE reduction in patients with liver or kidney disease as these diseases tend to prolong drug activities. There have been some reports of exacerbating heart rhythm problems in patients who already have heart rhythm problems so it MAY BE prudent to choose another means of stomach acid control in heart patients. marvistavet.com/famotidine.pml
Ana, please do scroll back up to read the important information Romy wrote to you on 8/7. Also be sure to answers the questions she has asked. Without the full facts from you, it makes it difficult to give good comments for Lily. QUESTIONS1) How old is Lily?2) Did you find out if there are any health reasons Lily may not use Pepcid AC? Name the health reasons if there are any.3) What date did carprofen start?4) For how many days is she to take carprofen?5) What date did you start the very STRICT rest inside of a recovery suite?6) Do you see any signs of pain? Lilly has not been prescribed any pain meds! Carprofen can take weeks to get all painful swelling gone. Pain meds work in one hour to provide relief from pain.7) Can Lily's back legs make any movement at all (such as attemp to scratch an ear, help to reposition her body in the suite?8) Can she do a happy tail wag if you do some happy talk to her? 9) Do you find urine leaks in her bedding? Does she leak on you when lifted? These are indicators of lost bladder control and the need to get a lesson on expressing the bladder. LEARN MORE
NOTE: Pee Pads should not be inside of the recovery suite. When you know she should have to go potty place her on a pee pad outside/adjacent to the crate to let her do her business. Peeing inside of the crate on a pee pad does not allow you to monitor with any accuracy if Lily has bladder control. 10) Let us know what you observe: Being able to sniff an old pee spot in the grass and the decide to release urine is PROOF OF BLADDER CONTROL. You can also put a bit of your other dog's urine on a small piece of paper towel on the pee pad outside of the crate as incentive for Lily to pee on the pad. This is not an easy time for you with your mom and caring for Lily, When you are able, we will be very grateful to learn more about Lily with answers to the questions. We do want to give you and Lily our best, informed support. p.s. HELPFUL TIP: The Forum is best viewed via the "desk top view" of a mobile phone browser app (Safari, Chrome, Foxfire). Scroll down to the bottom of the screen to click on "Desktop".
The most effective way to give a reply: -- scroll down to the "Quick reply" typing area. -- Avoid using the "Reply" or the "Quote" link buttons. Quick reply allows you to scroll up and down to a previous post and then back down to the "Quick Reply" typing area to continue your own post. |
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Post by Ana & Lily on Aug 11, 2021 9:16:39 GMT -7
1) Lily is 5.5 years old. She will be 6 in November.
2) Lily has no known health issues.
3) carprofen started last wedneday, 8/4/21
4) For how many days is she to take carprofen? She has been taking it since 8/4/21 along with the spine lectin herbal.
5) STRICT rest inside of a recovery suite? 8/4/21 with the only times that I am taking her out to pee/poop and the three visits to the vet for examination and acupuncture/laser treatment.
6) The holistic vet said that I could call her regular vet to get gabapatin, but that would be another vet visit that I am trying to keep from having to do so she can rest. She hasn't shown much signs of pain, except when she is visibly ready to use the bathroom and I haven't taken her out. I have her on 2-3 hours schedule during the day and at night, we take her out because she usually always gets up 1x a night to pee. She has been doing a GREAT job of squatting on her own to pee now. The poop is still a work in progress. She finally pooped, it was MUSHY and it just came out without my noticing this morning on our way to the bathroom.
7) Lily's back legs Yes, she has movement where she tries to stand on her own, moves around. She hasn't been able to scratch herself, but she does have strength and she responds when stimulated.
8) Yes, she wags her tail all the time when we talk and when her dad gets home, she's extremely happy to see him.
9) No, the urine leaks are my fault for not coming to get her within 2 hours. Besides that, her bed is now always dry.
Pee pads in crate? I have taken them out of her bed and just have them when she uses the bathroom. She usually uses a pee pad when I am not physically able to take her outside. I have other health issues myself that makes it hard for me to be out in the sun/heat.
10) When she gets to her spot on the pee pad, she goes and moves herself around on it and her urine is clear, not dark yellow. She's doing very good now with bladder control compared to days 1-5.
Thank you for all of your help. This is a new chapter in life for us, but we are working hard to keep the other 3 pups happy and given attention to while keeping Lily happy. Thank you!
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Post by Romy & Frankie on Aug 11, 2021 13:27:25 GMT -7
Lily seems to have bladder control because she can hold her urine until she gets to her spot on the pee pad. She can also do a happy tail wag. This is good news and bodes well for future healing. Have you started the Pepcid AC yet? It is important for dogs on an anti-inflammatory like Carprofen to be taking a stomach protector.
I see that she has been taking the carprofen since 8/4. Is she taking carprofen once a day or more often? For how many more days will she be taking it? If you are not sure, an easy way to figure this out is to count the number of pills left in the bottle.
If Lily is showing any of the signs of pain mentioned above, it is important that she be on pain meds. You are right that transports are risky and Lily needs to rest, but pain will only slow the healing process. |
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Post by Ana & Lily on Aug 11, 2021 14:32:32 GMT -7
Yes, I am very optimistic about this. [bladder control]
I got the OK to start [✙Pepcid AC] it today, but I have bloodwork to do on Tuesday to ensure she's doing well internally still.
[Moderator's note: please do not modify
8lbs 5.5 y.o.
Carprofen as of 8/4: 25mgs ?/day for 14 days, then 8/18 test SToP
Spine Lithe Chinese herbal 500 2x per day
NOTE: can prevent the function of NSAIDS or make their side effects worse:
1. Chuan Xiong (Ligusticum) aka Lovage, diuretic!
2. ginseng
3. licorice root
✙Pepcid AC 5mgs 2x/day
When off all meds and no pain, then LIGHT ROM can begin for paralyzed leg ]
She has enough [carprofen] through Tuesday [8/17] and once we have results on the testing she can continue to take it or taper off.
She had a hard time a bit ago pooping she got all shaky and threw up a bit. But once she did all of that she's happy, BUT I am taking her to her regular vet to see if I can get her regular pain meds to help her with the healing process, etc.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,536
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Post by PaulaM on Aug 11, 2021 16:11:53 GMT -7
Ana, thank your for all the detailed information! I want to thank you for using a date (8/18, 9/2, etc) instead of writing out Tuesday, next week. That really helps us out. Thanks also for writing a complete sentence in answer to questions. Instead of "it", "them" using a noun such as "carprofen", "peed pad" etc. This way no need of repeating the entire lengthy question asked. Your normal family vet has NOT examined Lilly for this disc episode. That means your vet would require a trip in for exam before being able to prescribe meds. The holitstic veterinarian and the ER vet HAVE examined and can Rx pain meds over the phone (eliminates the risky trip in for Lily's early healing disc.) OPTIONS #1 If Lily definatly is not currently suffering from any pain:Consider doing the bloodwork with your family DVM vet ONLY if you have observations that say another course of carprofen are necessary. -- Do the stop test of carprofen on 8/18 (is last dose of carprofen "Tuesday" mean 8/17?) first at home observing for any hint of pain surfacing. -- It can take 5-days before carprofen fully leaves the body and you get your proof of pain or all painful swelling is gone. -- NO PAIN means no need of any meds at all. No need to visit any vet. -- PAIN would mean a need to travel into your family vet with Lily to be examined and get a prescription for more carprofen, pain meds (traMADol, methocarbamol and gabapentin) plus resume Pepcid AC. #2 If Lily is definately currently showing signs of pain We just can not assume things and possibly assume wrong. --- Ana tell us what date and time is "a bit ago"? " hard time a bit ago pooping she got all shaky and threw up a bit."
--- What time did you start Pepcid AC today (8/11)?--- If Lily is showing signs of painful swelling, --- Phone the vet who prescribed the carprofen 1st thing 8/12 morning to report pain. Which vet Rx'd carprofen (holistic, ER or ???) --- If holistic Rx'd carprofen, then she can also Rx pain meds over the phone. Describe the pain signs you are currently observing and advocate for not having to do a risky trip in with Lily. Vets who know IVDD handle things like med adjustments over the phone. What exactly are you seeing currently about pain? Seeing two or more signs of pain is helpful to let you know your dog is in pain that needs med adjustment. Because for example shivering can be due to cold or due to pain.
SIGNS OF PAIN: ⚙︎ shivering-trembling ⚙︎ yelping when picked up or moved ⚙︎ tight tense tummy ⚙︎ arched back, ears pinned back ⚙︎ restless, can't find a comfortable position ⚙︎ slow or reluctant to move in suite such as shift positions ⚙︎ not their normal perky interested in life selves
POTTY TIME FREQUENCY
A dog with bladder control should normally want to pee every 4-6 hours. So taking her out every 2-3 hours is not normal.
Discuss with the holistic vet about maybe stopping Spine Lithe Chinese Chuan. The Xiong (Ligusticum) aka Lovage ingredient has properties to increase urine production! This may be why Lilly has to pee so often? |
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