|
|
Post by Heather & Bartholomew on Jul 25, 2021 7:25:03 GMT -7
[Original subject line:Bartholomew IVDD Frenchie ]
[Please do not edit this post. Moderator is currently reading and marking post to organize the chain of events and the date each happened on. Please add missing data in a new post in this same thread. Thanks! ]
Hi!
im Heather and I have a 10.5 year old Frenchie who was diagnosed with disc disease first week of June. He could walk and it was right sided-was toe tapping his back right leg. Conservative treatment and 2 weeks of 75mg Rimadyl 1/2 tab every 12 hours. Then July 10 was taking him to vet and he tried to stand on his back legs before I could stop him and he started limping on the right leg-vet was for vaccine but they gave me refill of Rimadyl. Continued rest and the 100’mg of gabapentin twice a day with rimadyl and crate rest except for potty breaks. Later that week the use of his back right leg was worsening and I took him back to the vet. They referred me to a neurologist. Went to neurologist July 16, they wanted to do an MRI which I had to decline as it was 2,000 dollars and required anesthesia. He added Valium 3 x a day to the medications.
fast forward he now [date? 7/24?] has paralysis in his back legs and can no longer control his bowels. He peed yesterday and a little this morning. I’ve been watching YouTube on how to manually express the bladder so I can try that. I went to three emergency vets [7/24] yesterday and all three told me to call the neurologist who won’t be back in until Monday.
I’ve never had a dog with this and it is very stressful and I don’t know what to do. Is it too late for Bartholomew to heal now? Surgery is not an option either. I think his meds need to be adjusted as I do think he is having some pain despite the meds. He doesn’t Yelp when picked up but he seems uncomfortable and pants at times
Rimadyl 75 mg 1/2 tab 2x day
Gabapentin 100 mg 2 times a day
tramadol 50 mg 1-1/2 tab 2 x day
Valium 2 mg 1.5 tab 3 x a day
[Moderator's Note. Please do not edit
weight? 10.5 y.o
7/10 disc relapse due to stopping crate rest
7/24 increased neuro loss (back legs paralyzed)
Rimadyl as of 7/24 relapse 37.5 mgs 2x/day for ? more days
gabapentin 100 mgs 2x/day
traMADol 50 mg tab: which actually one tab or 1/2 tab? 3x/day
valium 2mgs tab: 3mgs 3x/day
needs GI tract protector, Pepcid AC, on board w/ Rimadyl! ]
any advice would be appreciated.
he is still eating and drinking. Poop is a little runny.
|
|
PaulaM
Moderator. 
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,541
|
Post by PaulaM on Jul 25, 2021 7:49:50 GMT -7
Moderator Paula is reading your post and preparing a reply. Thank you for your patience. Please refresh your browser to see new replies. EMAIL ALERTS Timely communications are needed when helping your dog. How set up a bookmark for your dog's thread for email alerts when you have received a reply: dodgerslist.boards.net/thread/7353/register-bookmark-dogs-post-thread |
|
|
|
Post by Ann Brittain on Jul 25, 2021 7:53:13 GMT -7
Hi Heather, Welcome to Dodgerslist. I'm sorry to hear that Bartholomew is having issues with IVDD. It's unfortunate that crate rest and meds have not helped his condition improve.
The surgery option is expensive. Without an MRI, a neurologist can't assess Bartholomew's condition and determine if surgery is an option for him.
Continued crate rest and meds could still be effective as nerves can take a long time to heal, but normally there are more signs of improvement as opposed to the decline that Bartholomew is experiencing.
Here is a link to help you learn how to express your dog.
It is very important that his bladder is expressed regularly. If he starts to leak, you know his bladder is full which is not only uncomfortable for him, but could lead to urinary tract infection. Your vet should be able to help you learn the proper expressing techniques.
Bartholomew could be having some stomach issues due to all the meds he's on. If you are not currently including Pepsid AC (Famotidine) for stomach upset, it should be added to his meds. Check with your vet if you have questions or concerns about it. See the link below.
We all know how upsetting it is to feel helpless when our pets are struggling with IVDD. Keeping Bartholomew crated and inactive is the most crucial thing for you to do. If you continue to feel he's uncomfortable or in pain, discuss increasing his pain meds with your vet.
Please let us know if there are any changes in his condition. Other moderators will post recommendations and suggestions to help you manage your boy's care.
|
|
PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,541
|
Post by PaulaM on Jul 25, 2021 8:38:10 GMT -7
Heather, welcome to the Forum. All is not lost even with nerve damage increasing to back leg paralysis. The body does have the ability to self repair nerves over time to the degree possible. Bart can enjoy a good life even if it means waiting on the body to self repair nerves after graduation from rest. Two issue to address right away, today 1) Runny poop is a red flag sign of GI tract damage due to Rimadyl. Starts with nausea, not eating, vomit, loose stool, diarrhea leading to serious bleeding ulcers, red or black blood in stool due to the extra stomach acids anti-inflammatory drugs cause. If you believe there are not health issues, start Pepcid AC today and keep your vet in the loop first thing Monday morning. PEPCID AC: Phrase a simple question that you expect a simple "yes "or "no" to it. Does my dog have any health issues to prevent use of Pepcid AC (famotidine)? (doesn't need it, we wait til there is problem…are NOT answers to your question!) If you get a "no health" issues answer, then go to the grocery store to purchase over the counter Pepcid AC containing one single active ingredient (famotidine). (NOTE: Pepcid AC (famotidine) for dogs is 0.44mg per pound 30 mins before the anti-inflammatory and thereafter every 12 hours. www.1800petmeds.com/Famotidine-prod11171.html )
2) The key element in healing the disc is 100% STRICT rest 24/7. Confirm for us if you had been since week of 6/1 and now are doing STRICT rest:STRICT means limited movement of the spine:
- no laps - no couches
- no baths - no sleeping with you
- no dragging or meandering at potty times.
- no PT
- no chiro therapy:
Read why Chiropractic is not recommended for an IVDD dog: dodgerslist.com/2020/04/22/chiropractic
- Transports are always a risk to the disc of too much movement. Vet visits must be weighed risk vs. benefit for dogs with little to mild neuro diminishment. Handle thing over the phone that can be done such as adjusting meds, updating vet, etc.
- Avoid dangerous detours. Follow the "Roadmap." Tape it to your fridge. D/L and print out: dodgerslist.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/Roadmap-for-Fridge.pdf ROADMAPDid Bart receive a vaccine on July 10? What was the name of it?Emergency FAQ will fill you in on the big picture about a disc episode: dodgerslist.com/2020/02/24/emergency-faq/It will help us work together with you and avoid offering ideas that could cause harm or lead the discussion in the wrong direction delaying help for your dog — please share a bit more detail with us: HELPFUL TIP: The Forum is best viewed via the "desk top view" of a mobile phone browser app (Safari, Chrome, Foxfire). Scroll down to the bottom of the screen to click on "Desktop".
For everyone the most effective way to respond:
-- scroll down to the "Quick reply" typing area.
-- Avoid using the "Reply" or the "Quote" link.
Quick reply allows you to scroll up and down to a previous post and then back down to the "Quick Reply" typing area to continue your own post.QUESTIONS☆ 1 Describe what you observe about pain: ☐ reluctant to move much in crate such as shift positions or slow, ginger movements
☐ shivering, trembling ☐yelping when picked up or moved
☐ tight tense tummy ☐can’t find a comfortable position, appears restless
☐ Arched back ☐head held high or nose to the ground
☐ Holding front or back leg flamingo style not wanting to bear weight
☐Not their normal perky selves? Full pain relief is expected in1 hour and stays that way dose to dose.If not in control your vet needs to know asap to adjust meds.☆ 2 Medications
-- How much does your dog weigh? -- what is the finish date for Rimadyl? -- Clarify the dose of traMADol: is one dose a whole 50mgs tab + 1/2 of tablet 3x/day? ☆ 3 -- Eating and drinking OK? No nausea/not eating, no vomit? -- Poops OK - normal firmness & color -no dark black or bright red blood indicating bleeding ulcers? No diarrhea?☆ 5 --- Where is the disc in the neck or the back?
--- Did the 7/16 neuro reconfirm likely a disc episode or did he have suspicion maybe a different disease? ☆ 7 Clarify bladder control:
-- Can your dog specifically sniff and squat and then release urine (which is bladder control)?
-- OR- do you find wet bedding or leaks on you when lifted which are indication of an overflowing bladder and loss of bladder control?Overflowing bladders need to be expressed to avoid UTIs. Review video then get a hands-on-top-of-your-hands expressing lesson 1st thing monday morning. Concern is that a urinary tract infection (UTI) can happen in a matter of days for dog with no bladder control. Review 1st before the lesson so you get more out the You will get more out of a hands-on-top-of-your-hands type of expressing lesson here: dodgerslist.com/2020/05/05/bladder-bowel-care/https://dodgerslist.com/2020/05/05/bladder-bowel-care/ NOTE: also video on expressing for poop more as anti-anxiety for Bart rather than a real health issue bladder expressing is.
DOGs with BLADDER
Carry to and from the recovery suite to the potty place and then allow a very few limited footsteps.
Using a sling (long winter scarf, ace bandage, belt) will save your back and help to keep a wobbly dog’s back aligned and butt from tipping over.
A harness and 6 foot leash is to control speed and keep footsteps to minimum as you stand in one spot.
An ex-pen in the grass is an excellent alternative to minimizing footsteps with the physical and visual to indicate there will be no sniff festing going on!☆ 8 Currently can your dog wag his stub of a tail when you specifically do some happy talk? |
|
|
|
Post by Heather & Bartholomew on Jul 25, 2021 9:53:29 GMT -7
He weighs 29-30 lbs. vaccine received on July 10 was bordatella. He was on strict crate rest for 3 weeks to begin had vet check up and could slowly start increasing activity. This was mid-June. Yes, paralysis on July 24, and tried to visit emergency vet. Will get Pepcid does not have any other medical problems.
The only indicator of pain is panting. No end date on Rimadyl last refill was two weeks worth, I have a few more days worth. Tramadol is 50 mg tabs 1 to 1.5 tabs 2 x a day. I gave him 1.5 today. Lumbar spine is where cray [X-ray?] showed narrowing in June, neuro confirms this suspicion without MRI for now. I haven’t noticed any leaks yet when picking him up, he peed this morning but it wasn’t a lot
I have not noticed his stub wagging but he never really wagged it he would wriggle his butt instead. Been on strict crate rest since [7/10?] the limping restarted but seems to have worsened.
I don’t know what to do for him and I don’t want my only choice to be euthanasia. I’ve been reading about IVDD nonstop and I don’t know who is more anxious me or Bartholomew.
|
|
|
|
Post by Ann Brittain on Jul 25, 2021 10:27:17 GMT -7
The only thing to do for Bartholomew is to be patient. I know it's hard when you want so badly for him to get better.
Many dogs live good lives with IVDD even if they don't fully regain their ability to walk. I have to say that we learned to love our Buster even more after he went down. After surgery, it took several weeks to see any improvement. Eventually he regained the ability to walk, but it was never 100 percent normal. It didn't matter because he was otherwise healthy and happy.
Part of being a dog parent is making the choices for your pet's health and well-being. You've done a great job so far. All you need to do is trust your judgement and know that Bartholomew wants to recover as much as you want him too.
Good luck to you both.
|
|
PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,541
|
Post by PaulaM on Jul 25, 2021 10:42:39 GMT -7
Heather first thing to know disc disease (a disc episode) is not a death sentence. So you can put that thougt out of your mind, if you will. It takes 8 weeks for disc to heal. Cutting crate rest short, can mean a relapse, rehear to the early healing disc. Appears that is what happened. You've not mentioned additional times of too much movement that can explain why on 7/24 neuro loss increased to paralysis. Keep to the very STRICT rest. Monitor for loss of bladder control where you would then need to be manually expressing the bladder. SNIFF and PEE test The only way for humans to know if there is bladder control is with the “sniff and pee test.” Carry outdoors, set them on an old pee spot to sniff. Make sure the sling or your hands are not on the tummy area as that can press on the bladder. See if they will release urine on the old urine area. If urine comes out after sniffing, bladder control is still exists. Let us know what you observe. If you specifically do some happy talk or show him a treat coming, will he do a happy butt wiggle?
Make sure you are giving the max dose of all pain meds. That is, as Rx'd on bottle to make sure all three sources of pain are properly being addressed: --- promptly every 8 hrs Tramadol 1.5 tabs (75mgs). traMADol acts as the overall general analgesic --- gabapentin for nerve pain, get a adjustment for pain meds over the phone to avoid unnecessary risk of transporting Bart. Both traMADol and gabapentin wear off at about 8 hrs. Advocate for gabapentin to be dose promptly every 8 hrs. --- Discuss/advocate for methocarbamol for muscle contraction pain instead of Valium (Diazepam.) Also Methocarbamol promptly every 8 hrs. -- FYI about Methocarbamol: When there is increased neuro loss, many vets will consider that an emergency to use the stronger of the two classes of anti-inflammatory drugs. That is use a steroid and stop the non-steroid NSAID Rimadyl. EXTREME PRECAUTIONARY MEASURES to TAKE HOURS MATTER!!! When there is neuro loss, the lessor of the anti-inflammatories the NSAID are not usually continued with. The most powerful of the anti-inflammatories the steroid class is considered. If the vet deems it an emergency to switch from a NSAID Rimadyl to a steroid due to neuro loss, such a switch can be made without a 5-7 day washout period with the addition of TWO stomach protectors - Pepcid AC (famotidine) AND Sucralfate. You will want to understand why you are advocating for sucralfate along with Pepcid AC and have a plan to time it properly with food and other meds including with Pepcid AC. Valuable reading at the Mar Vista Vet page: www.marvistavet.com/pharmacy-center.pmlYou may find this little card handy to have with vet discussions to keep all the meds straight D/l here: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/MedCard.pdf |
|
|
|
Post by Heather & Bartholomew on Jul 25, 2021 14:16:50 GMT -7
He Peed!!!!! By himself.
He buckles right leg
will toe tap [is this knuckling paw under?] left but can’t bear weight.
I bought some Pepcid AC. [dose in mgs? and giving 2x/day?]
--------------
Previous postings:
Correct, surgery and MRI not an option due to financials and his age he is an old man, and there is no guarantee at this point surgery will result in recovery .
I will let you know what I observe for pee test. And I will see what I can do for pain med adjustment every 8 hours ans getting the muscle relaxant and steroids
Doesn’t seem to sniff and pee. He has a hard time figuring out walking without the use of his hind legs and I try to help him with a sling but doesn’t seem to be working. Also, don’t see any but wriggling.
|
|
PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,541
|
Post by PaulaM on Jul 25, 2021 14:58:10 GMT -7
Heather, thanks so much for the prompt report on peeing. Boy is this good news! You need not express his bladder. And it may be the case his back legs are not paralyzed, but more of being very weak (see neuro list below). So then he has not lost the ability for a happy stubby tail wag that only looks like the butt is wagging/wriggling side to side. Are you reporting the left back paw knuckles under and that is the reason can't stand on it can't bear weight? OR... Does he hold the left back paw up like a flamingo bird because it hurts to place paw properly on the ground? Can Bart move either of his back legs in his recovery suite? Such as attempting to scratch an ear, helping to reposition his body in the suite? As damage to the spinal cord increases, there is a predictable stepwise deterioration of functions. When nerve healing begins, often it follows the reverse order. 1. Pain caused by the tearing disc & inflammation in the spinal cord 2. Wobbly walking, legs cross 3. 7/24ish? Nails/toes scuffing floor 4. 7/24ish? Paws knuckle under 5. 7/24ish? Weak/little leg movement, can't move up into a stand 6. __ ?__ Legs do not work at all (paralysis, dog is down) 7. _____Bladder control is lost. Leaks on you when lifted. Can no longer sniff and then pee on that old urine spot outdoors. 8. Tail wagging with joy is lost 9. Deep pain sensation, the last neuro function, a critical indicator for nerves to be able to self heal with conservative treatment. If surgery is not an option (for whatever reason) then the best option is conservative therapy. Please confirm if you are you dosing Pepcid AC with only one active ingredient (famotidine) at 10 mgs 2x/day? |
|
|
|
Post by Heather & Bartholomew on Jul 25, 2021 16:51:37 GMT -7
July 24 left leg loss use but is not knuckling. When I support him to potty he will try to use it but can’t. Right [paw] leg began knuckling Wednesday July 21. He doesn’t even try with the right leg. I was supporting him when he peed [7/25] and he was putting his left leg on the ground but couldn’t use it. He does not attempt to use it to move he will try but can’t use it if that makes sense [ Summary of neuro loss 1. Pain caused by the tearing disc & inflammation in the spinal cord
2. Wobbly walking, legs cross
3. 7/21 Right back paw nails/toes scuff floor
4. 7/21 Right back paw knuckles under
5. 7/24 Left back leg weak/little leg movement, can't move up into a stand
6. 7/25 Right back leg does not work at all (paralysis)
7. __ Bladder control is lost. Leaks on you when lifted. Can no longer sniff and then pee on that old urine spot outdoors.
8. Tail wagging with joy is lost
9. Deep pain sensation (DPS), the last neuro function ]Correct 10mgs of ✙ famotidine only active ingredient [Moderator's Note. Please do not edit
29-30lbs 10.5 y.o
7/10 disc relapse due to stopping crate rest
7/24 Left back leg weak/little leg movement, can't move up into a stand
7/25 Right back leg does not work at all (paralysis)
Rimadyl as of 7/24 disc relapse: 37.5 mgs 2x/day for ? more days
gabapentin 100 mgs 2x/day
traMADol 50 mg tab: 75mgs 3x/day
valium 2mgs tab: 3mgs 3x/day
✙famotidine 10mgs 2x/day ]
|
|
PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,541
|
Post by PaulaM on Jul 25, 2021 19:47:29 GMT -7
Heather, with both legs affected differently, believe dealing with one leg at a time with a date + problem is a better way to understand things in an organized manner. Take a look at above post with Summary of neuro loss if all the puzzle pieces are in order with proper date of the neuro loss. Normally there is increased neuro damage due to not carrying out the full 8 weeks for the disc to heal, too much back movement such as in a transport to a vet when things could have been handled over the phone. You have not associated any of the recent 7/21 to today increased neuro loss with an observation/cause of that nerve damage. So this is confusing to us. I hope you will be able to keep the Monday appt with the Neuro so that a firm diagnosis can pinned down and the right treatment given for that disease. Nerve damage TERMS -- Paws knuckle -- Legs can: 1- be wobbly 3- attempt to move but too weak to achieve. Such as attempting to stand but can't fully raise up to a stand postion. 4- Fully paralyzed so that the legs never move. 5- Paralyzed legs can't attempt any movement. The dog sits with legs uncontrollably to the front like a frog or to the back like a seal. dodgerslist.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/Nerve-damage-leg-paralysis.jpg **There are other diseases that a Frenchie can have that would mimic what a disc episode looks like. Some of the diseases may well have a different treatment than for a disc episode. Out of number of those diseases for example to show you what I mean, one of those diseases could be hemivertebrae where it is not a degenerating disc like IVDD but the dog was born with the spinal vertebrae deformed. As the dog ages the vertebrae problem progresses with the bone pressing on the spinal cord causing nerve damage. Here at Dodgerslist we only know one disease we feel we know a lot about to comment on. We fully depend on the owner bringing a diagnosis from the vet, where we can help with home care. Until you have a different diagnosis that says this is not a disc episode, then the prudent thing is to act like this is a disc episode and do the STRICT rest thing to protect the spinal cord. In preparation for the neuro visit Monday 7/26, you may wish to refresh on the different kinds of advanced imaging as well as x-ray to understand what the neuro will be going over with you: dodgerslist.com/2020/05/23/imaging/We will be watching for your update after the Monday neuro appt to see what the top disease out of 3-4 diseases the neuro ranks as the most like to be "the" disease Bart has and what treatment is Rx'd for that disease. If the neuro still ranks Bart as suffering from a disc episode, do discuss why there seemingly was nothing observable about excessive movement that caused the worsening disc damage and the decline of nerve functions. We are always looking to learn new information. |
|
