|
|
Post by Lisa & Pete on Jun 13, 2021 17:28:29 GMT -7
☆ 1 11 pounds
☻prednisone the start date 4/30/21☻5 mg☻once a day
Began with 2 times a day, decided to take him to see a surgeon, dropped to once a day for a week, then to nothing for 3 days.
Saw the surgeon on 6/8/21.
gave a pain patch (central) for 1 day then started prednisone back on 6/10/21 to once a day
[Moderator's Note. Please do not edit
11 lbs 5 y.o
Prednisone of 4/30 5mgs 2x/day for 26 days 5/27 test taper for _pain/_neuro Last taper dose on 5/30
as 6/4: 2.5 mgs 2x/day for ? days, then taper
needs GI tract protector, Pepcid AC, on board w/!PREDNISONE ]
☆ 2 Dachshund
What is your dog's name? pete Your name? Lisa
USA
☆ 3 Vet thinks IVDD, but only did x-rays, vet is general practice
-- specialist surgeon (ACVIM neurology or ACVS ortho)? Would not take a CT scan unless I agreed to surgery
☆ 4 Started crate rest 5-1/21 -
saw surgeon on 6-8/21, and continued crate rest
Bought a laser vet recommended on Amazon and giving him treatment 20 min twice a day
☆ 6 Currently wobbly walk? No
move the legs at all? some- with support
wag happy talk? Yes!
☆ 7 Yes- he never lost bladder control
☆ 8 Eating and drinking OK? Yes
poop look ok
Pepcid AC (famotidine) Not yet- just read about giving it to him
|
|
PaulaM
Moderator. 
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,528
|
Post by PaulaM on Jun 13, 2021 20:25:53 GMT -7
Lisa, welcome to the Forum! Looks like Pete will have good opportunity to heal his disc by graduation day of June 25. Nerves are often slower to heal than a disc, so that healing may or may not come by June 25. For nerve healing it often needs to be thought about in terms of months rather than days/weeks. Conservative treatment is all about getting the disc to heal in 8 weeks of limited movement. How old is Pete?
Assuming pain patch has expired by now (???). So with Pete taking only the anti-inflammatory drug to get rid of painful swelling (prednisone), do you see any signs of pain currently listed below? SIGNS OF PAIN: ⚙︎ shivering-trembling ⚙︎ yelping when picked up or moved ⚙︎ tight tense tummy ⚙︎ arched back, ears pinned bac ⚙︎ restless, can't find a comfortable position ⚙︎ slow or reluctant to move in suite such as shift positions ⚙︎ not their normal perky interested in life selves ➕if a neck disc: ◻︎ head held high/ nose to the ground ◻︎ looks up with just eyes and does not move head and neck easily. ◻︎ not eating due to painful chewing or in too much overall pain ◻︎ holds front or back leg up flamingo style not wanting to bear weight
The best pain medication control is using more than one approach to address pain from multiple fronts (traMADol-general analgesic, methocarbamol- muscle spasm pain, gabapentin-nerve pain). All three pain meds control pain best when Rx'd three times a day.
-- Learn about Prednisone. An informed owner is a dog's best defense when taking an anti-inflammatory. What your job is, how to arrange for a Plan B with your vet. What is the name of the pain patch. For how many days is it good for? Often then are good for 3 days then expire. Please let us know the facts about the patch.
Has there been any lapse in 100% STRICT rest inside of a recovery suite since 4/30?What was the reason you sought a specialist counsel on 6/8 if you did not want a surgery?Could you fill us in on missing info about Pete's conservative treatment so we can best understand things:
1) Prednisone can take 7-30 days (excluding taper days) to get rid of all pain. This is why we track the number of days on prednisone 2x/day.
2) A vet must guess on the length of the prednisone course (often it is a 7-day or 14-day course of 5mgs 2x/day)
A) 4/30 Pete's first course 5mgs 2x/day for how many days then a taper? B) Please list all other prednisone courses Pete has had
3) Pain meds are used until the prednisone taper starts. The taper is to test for pain and neuro diminishment. Pain on the taper indicates need for another course.
4) On the Prednisone taper, all pain meds stop to allow a quick and accurate assessment about pain surfacing or neuro deficits increasing.
-- List the signs of pain if any were observed when the 4/30 prednisone course began to taper.
-- List any loss or worsening of neuro functions when the pred taper started.
5) Where is Pete's neuro function? Nerves heal typically in the reverse order of the damage to the spinal cord: 1. YES! Deep Pain Sensation: the first neuro function to return. DPS is the critical indicator for nerves to be able to self heal after surgery or with conservative treatment. Trust only the word of a neuro (ACVIM) or ortho (ACVS) surgeon about this very tricky to correctly idenfiy neuro function. 2. YES! Tail wagging with joy at seeing you or getting a treat or meal. 3. YES! Bladder control verified with the "sniff and pee" test. 4. _?__ Some leg movement to reposition in recovery suite, and then _?__ ability to move up into a stand position, and then _?__ wobbly walking. 5._?__ Being able to walk with more steadiness and _?__ properly place the paw so that it does not knuckle under 6. Ability to walk unassisted and perhaps even run. LEARN MORE: dodgerslist.com/2021/02/06/nerve-healing-after-disc-episode/Knuckling:  |
|
|
|
Post by Lisa & Pete on Jun 14, 2021 12:38:39 GMT -7
Hello. Thank you for your quick response! Pete is 5 yrs old. He has not lost any weight, but has lost most of his muscle mass.
On April 30 at 4:30am Pete woke up crying. We were all sleeping when this happened. We picked him up not knowing what was going on. He was stiff and in pain. Our next door neighbor is our vet. We waited until 6am to text them. My neighbor came over, saw he was knuckling his left front foot and had his head lowered towards the ground. He took Pete with him to the office and did x-rays and a laser treatment. When he got hime in the evening, his back legs were not working. He was started on pain meds, muscle relaxer, and predis0ne 2twice a day. He stayed on all 3 for week, never lost control on his bowels. After that first week he was on predis0ne 5mg twice a day. Then we came up with a way to pay for surgery, that’s when I took him to the surgeon on 6-2. I was also looking for alternative ways to help him besides surgery. The office had accupunture, water therapy, and several other things on their premises. But I was not offered any of those services. Surgeon said he would never walk again and we should put him down. I was not going to give up hope. He was scooting on his back legs, and moving around In a circle with his right leg. I had read your website about recovery and decided to follow your suggestions.
My vet also agreed and gave us more predis0ne. He stopped all predis0ne on May 30 and restarted on June 4th. I’m not sure if his new date is June 4 since we stopped all meds then.
right now he is on prednisone 5mg once a day. 1/2 pill in am and 1/2 in the pm. He does not appear to be in any pain, however, he will not bear any weight on his front left foot. [PAIN] The disc in question is in his neck, so this is probably why.
the patch was fentanyl- he used it for 2 days. Along with one 5mg predis0ne. After the 2nd day, we took the patch off and he is only on predis0ne 5 mg once a day now
Has there been any lapse in 100% STRICT rest inside of a recovery suite since 4/30?
The only lapse I saw was when we took him off the predis0ne on 5-30 (after he was on it for it 25 days). He was lethargic and just not himself-happy, tail wagging. He just laid there and did potty when we took him out. he began not eating well too.
What was the reason you sought a specialist counsel on 6/8 if you did not want a surgery? To get a price and to seek other options (I’m sorry, I got the date wrong, it was 6-2)
Could you fill us in on missing info about Pete's conservative treatment so we can best understand things:
1) Prednisone can take 7-30 days (excluding taper days) to get rid of all pain. This is why we track the number of days on prednisone 2x/day.
2) A vet must guess on the length of the prednisone course (often it is a 7-day or 14-day course of 5mgs 2x/day)
A) 4/30 Pete's first course 5mgs 2x/day for how many days then a taper?
on April 30, He began predis0ne 5mg twice a day for 26 days then tapered to once a day on May 27 for 3 days. on May 30 we stopped all predis0ne. He saw surgeon on June 2
B) Please list all other prednisone courses Pete has had
this is all we have done with him
3) Pain meds are used until the prednisone taper starts. The taper is to test for pain and neuro diminishment. Pain on the taper indicates need for another course.
4) On the Prednisone taper, all pain meds stop to allow a quick and accurate assessment about pain surfacing or neuro deficits increasing.
-
- List the signs of pain if any were observed when the 4/30 prednisone course began to taper.
lethargic, not happy, not using any of his legs, not putting any weight on his legs, still able to urinate and poop
-- List any loss or worsening of neuro functions when the pred taper started.
No weight on legs, no scooting, just laying in crate, not happy when we came home, not eating much, not shaking his head-he could turn it and look around, but no shaking ‘off”
since we restarted the predis0ne on June 4 (5 mg once a day), about a week later he started scooting/pushing with his back legs, shaking off, On 6-12 he sat up on his front legs to eat. He scooted across the crate the “see” me/to be next to me in his crate. He has started to put weight on his back legs and front right leg. He still holds hi, left leg up and not using it [PAIN]. He can lower himself to urinate or to crouch to poop. Today (6-14) he was able to stand back up after he pooped. He wags his tail and tried to walk in his crate whenever we get home or he is excited. His appetite is normal along with drinking water.
we have been using a home laser 20 min twice a day too.
he has use of his neck since we started pain meds on 4-30. The next day, May 1, he was able to move his head. About a week or so later, he was able to shake his head and has since .
4. _?__ Some leg movement to reposition in recovery suite, and then
yes, but I have to hold him up or he will fall over
only uses back legs, and right front leg, does not use his left leg
_?__ ability to move up into a stand position, beginning to, he’s about 1/4 to 1/2 way up
_?__ wobbly walking. no, gets about 1/2 way up, pushes himself forward and falls over (does this in his crate)
5._?__ Being able to walk with more steadiness
tries to walk/move his legs while holding him to use the bathroom
_?__ properly place the paw so that it does not knuckle under
his back legs can, occasionally his left back leg does knuckle under.
his front left leg continues to knuckle under
6. Ability to walk unassisted and perhaps even run.
no
|
|
PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,528
|
Post by PaulaM on Jun 14, 2021 14:08:28 GMT -7
Lisa, thank you for providing all the detail so that we now have a much better understanding the roll meds have played. I'm so, so very sorry you ran into a surgeon who is not educated about IVDD and offered you only surgery or death. A neck disc can be a much more painful thing due to the head having to move whenever most any other part of the body moves. NERVE ROOT SIGNATURE PAIN You are reporting there is still pain of the left front leg. That is likely from root signature pain. You can read more about that type of pain here on our main Dodgerslist website "The Neuro Corner" where neuro surgeon Dr. Isaacs explains: dodgerslist.com/2020/08/20/nerve-root-signature-pain/Nerve root signature pain means that prednisone at 2.5mgs 2x/day is still trying to get rid of swelling and the pain swelling causes. Right now there are no pain meds on board to mask pain while prednisone is at work. CALL YOUR VET Advocate for pain meds to be on board while pred it at work to rid the body of pain. --- gabapentin for nerve pain. Works best and round the clock when Rx'd evert 8 hrs --- Methocarbamol for muscle contraction pain. Works best 3d/day (every 8 hrs) --- traMADol (a synthetic opiod) as the general overall analgesic. Works best 3x/day -- Verify your dog has no heart or kidney/liver disease. If no health issues run to the grocery store and get Pepcid AC® (famotidine) on board now to suppress the acids stress, pain, prednisone cause. 11lbs X 0.44mgs famotidine = 5mgs every 12 hrs. The usual dose during a disc episode is Pepcid AC (famotidine) for dogs is 0.44mg per pound 30 mins before the anti-inflammatory prednisone and thereafter every 12 hours. Give the anti-inflammatory with a meal as added protection. www.1800petmeds.com/Famotidine-prod11171.htmlAll the other signs you mention are related to neuro damage/healing that has taken place so far. -- back leg knuckles under -- attempting now to move up in to a stand with back legs -- 6/12 was able to push up to sit with front legs  The hope with root signature pain is the nerve root exiting the spinal cord leading to a limb can learn to live with the piece of neck disc pressing on that nerve. Maybe the disc piece can be absorbed and shrink back some. Sometimes that is not possible and a dog may need to be on a med long term to allow the dog relief from pain. The other option is a surgery to remove the offending disc piece So it is a matter of time to see what pred can do to get the swelling down in the left FRONT limb and while that is happening pain meds need to be on board to provide comfort. Time to see more healing from the nerve damage that took place due to the neck disc. Time of 8 weeks STRICT rest from the date you started on 4/30 to ensure the neck disc has self healed. Let us know what your vet says 1) about Pete's health so you can buy Pepcid AC at the grocery store 2) about getting pain meds on board so Pete's left FRONT limb will not be in pain. He is holding it up like a flamingo bird because it hurts. 3) For how many days did your vet guess as to how long this 6/4 Pred 2.5mgs 2x/day course will be. Then the taper is to assess about pain still existing. 4) If pain would still exist on the pred taper decide what path to follow (surgery or a comfortable life with the miracle of meds many humans follow with their back pain to live a comfortable life. PTS is not a path to follow as you well know! 5) On Graduation day of June 25, the disc will have healed, nerves may or may not have fully self healed to full function, root signature pain may not have gone away, but life will go on as you then begin a program of gradually introducing Pete back to family life. Learn what your vet thinks about the future for Pete, is he on board helping Pete, which path does he feel confident about. 6) Sorry if I missed it in your writings, but is surgery still an option on the table for your family but with a board certified IVDD knowledgeable neuro (ACVS) or ortho (ACVS) surgeon?
Directory to ortho and neuro surgeons: find.vetspecialists.comNot all nerve root signature problems can be resolved with conservative treatment and surgery may be something to consider if an option for your family still. Pain, not wanting to bear weight, hold leg flamingo like  |
|
|
|
Post by Lisa & Pete on Jun 15, 2021 17:59:28 GMT -7
Thank you for the information! I greatly appreciate it 🥰
tonight while eating dinner, Pete stood in his crate! He scooted over to the corner beca8se he wanted to be with us at the table. I heard him moving around and he was standing on all 4’s! I almost cried I was somhappy to see this. He was only able to stand for a few seconds, but he kept standing off and on for quite some time! Then later in the evening, when he had to poop, he balanced himself ( I held onto him, so he didn’t fall over). I’m hoping this is all good and positive that he is getting better and healing .
|
|
PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,528
|
Post by PaulaM on Jun 16, 2021 9:31:02 GMT -7
Lisa, oh boy is that wonderful news about Pete's nerves self healing to allow him to move up into a stand all by himself!!!
Could you fill us in more about these things. We can best help when we are "in the know" of Pete-related things. Thanks in advance for your answers:
Let us know what your vet says
1) about Pete's health so you can get Pepcid AC on board during use of Prednisone? Buy at the grocery store
2) What is the status about getting pain meds on board so Pete's left FRONT limb will not be in pain. Is he STILL holding leg up like a flamingo bird (not wanting to bear weight) because it hurts in light of your reporting he can now push himself up in to a stand on all four legs?
3) For how many days did your vet guess as to how long this 6/4 Prednisone 2.5mgs 2x/day course will be? Then the taper will be to assess about pain still existing.
|
|
|
|
Post by Lisa & Pete on Jun 18, 2021 17:38:01 GMT -7
1) pete started on ✙Pepcid this week 😀
2) When Pete initially started with pain meds, he did not do well. He was not able to poop, and he was up all hours, we were getting no sleep. Once we took him off them and only gave him predis0ne, his pooping became regular, he is sleeping normally, and he is back to himself ( awake when we are home, tail wagging, eating). Occasionally he will put some weight on his front left leg. Vet felt he was doing well on the predis0ne.
gave a pain patch (central) for 1 day then started prednisone back on 6/10/21 to once a day
[Moderator's Note. Please do not edit
11 lbs 5 y.o
Prednisone of 4/30 5mgs 2x/day for 26 days 5/27 test taper for _pain/_neuro Last taper dose on 5/30
as 6/4: 2.5 mgs 2x/day for 15+? days, then taper
Pepcid AC 5mg 2x/day
GRAD date to heal disc was to be 6/25. Grad date unknown due to dog still on prednisone ]
3) how long this 6/4 Prednisone 2.5mgs 2x/day course will be? she did not give me a date.
|
|
PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,528
|
Post by PaulaM on Jun 18, 2021 18:10:41 GMT -7
Lisa, not wanting to bear weight is a sign of pain. Very unfortunate there is no one who will advocate for pain relieve. Different meds can have different side effects, there may be one not yet tried that helps Pete with pain.
All that was mentioned was an unclear reference to the active ingredient in some kind of patch (central) ?? Was the patch Fentanyl? If gabapentin, traMADol or methocarbamol have not been tried to give comfort from pain, the it would be worthwhile to speak up for Pete in getting him some comfort.
It would be prudent as the owner of your beloved Pete to be in the know about his treatment.
The goal of our Forum is to support you, to teach you how to learn to look up things, question everything and read so you become the most important part of your dog's health care team. We can help you best, when you share the detail to provide a full picture.
What is the dose of Pepcid AC (famotidine) and are you giving it 2x/day?
Have you specifically asked what is the treatment plan in mind with prednisone since it it now going on 41 days of use? Is this a life long thing up at the anti-inflammatory level? Is this going move to looking for the lowest pred dose possible to keep pain away? Perhaps a low dose of pred plus one or more pain meds would allow lower dose.
|
|
|
|
Post by Lisa & Pete on Jun 20, 2021 18:29:32 GMT -7
Thank you for all the information and ideas you have given me! You have taught me so much and given me so much hope that my Pete May one day be normal again. today when I was making dinner, [6/20] he stood up in the middle of his crate ALL BY HIMSELF! I looked over at him and there he was standing, getting a drink of water! i have him on Pepcid 2x a day, he gets 5 mg with every meal. right now the plan is to keep him on the predis0ne until he can get in with a local holistic vet. There is a waiting list, and I should be getting close to the top (I am calling tomorrow, 6-21). She has worked with several friends dogs with back issues and they highly recommend her. they have had great results. I am praying she has a solution that is much cheaper than surgery. I just can not afford the $8300! again, thank you for all The help, suggestions, and hope! I am beyond grateful for your knowledge and wisdom you are sharing with me and all the others here! 💖  |
|
PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,528
|
Post by PaulaM on Jun 20, 2021 19:21:11 GMT -7
Lisa, Pete's nerves ARE healing in the classic way these things happen in. Nerves heal typically in the reverse order of the damage to the spinal cord: 1. Deep Pain Sensation: the first neuro function to return. DPS is the critical indicator for nerves to be able to self heal after surgery or with conservative treatment. Trust only the word of a neuro (ACVIM) or ortho (ACVS) surgeon about this very tricky to correctly idenfiy neuro function. 2. Tail wagging with joy at seeing you or getting a treat or meal. 3. Bladder and bowel control verified with the "sniff and pee" test. 4. Leg Movement, and then ➤ ability to move up into a stand position on all fours, and then ? wobbly walking. 5. Being able to walk with more steadiness and ? properly place the paw on floor without knuckling under. Knuckling: 6. Ability to walk unassisted and perhaps even run. Pete's issue is with his neck disc. From what you report sounds very much like a nerve root exiting the bundle of nerves in the spinal cord going out to the left front leg is being pinched by a piece of disc material (dark blue). This would causes pain where the dog will not want to bear weight on that paw. Please do talk with your vet.  © Copyright 2015 The Spinal Research Foundation
Fingers crossed Pete can be squeezed in quickly to get help with what can very likely be nerve root signature pain for his left front limb.  ![]() ![]() |
|
|
|
Post by Cindy & Charli on Jun 21, 2021 3:45:00 GMT -7
Hi, Lisa - just chiming in here to support the need for your sweet boy, Pete, to get some pain relief!
Our Charli went down on 4/28 with neck disk issues. The pred helps shrink the swelling, but does NOTHING to relieve pain, in and of itself.
Imagine having knee surgery - and being given an ice pack for the swelling - but nothing for the post-surgical pain.
Gabapentin, at a minimum, will help your Pete be much more comfortable at least until you can get some holistic options, if that is your preference. This should not cause stomach issues - as it is not an opioid - but you can always add a little pumpkin to Pete's food if he is experiencing constipation. Also, if you are feeding dry kibble, wet it down with a little water first to help get some fluid in him - sometimes drinking water or eating hard kibble is painful - especially for neck-disk dogs.
Adding in Methocarbamol and Tramadol will give an overlapping "blanket" effect to cover all causes of pain and discomfort - thus allowing your boy to "relax" and not be tensed up in pain.
The goal for all of us is that our beloved furkids will be pain free and able to live a happy life.
Sending healing hopes and best wishes to you and Pete!! I hope he has a pain free day!!
|
|
|
|
Post by Lisa & Pete on Jun 23, 2021 16:45:29 GMT -7
My Pete’s tummy is becoming bloated from the prednisone-anything I can do for him?
thank-you!
|
|
PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,528
|
Post by PaulaM on Jun 23, 2021 17:57:57 GMT -7
Lisa, getting in to see a vet soonest possible is the action to take. Prednisone carries with it many serious side effects. Contact your own family vet in the morning.
When you called to see about a date with holistic vet what was said about first opening date?
It is possible to discuss with your own vet about cutting back on pred currently at 2.5mgs 2x/day (starting the taper) BUT increases pain meds to cover pain better? May a combo of less pred and increased pain meds will tide Pete over til he can get in with a holistic vet.
gabapentin for nerve pain
traMADol as a over all analgesic
methocarbamol for the pain from muscle contractions common with a neck disc.
Prednisone is something that should never be adjusted by owners. This is one med that always must be used under the supervision and direction of a vet.
Does your family vet do acupuncture or laser therapy? Maybe that would be a fast way to give some pain relief to Pete while pred would begin to taper under a vet's supervision?
|
|
|
|
Post by Lisa & Pete on Jul 17, 2021 14:44:09 GMT -7
PETE IS WALKING!!!! He is off all meds and walking on a leash and is limited to what he allowed to do. Through a google search I was able to find a vet that offered physical therapy/rehab for dogs. They are also a holistic vet. I have taken him for two visits now. He gets water therapy, laser therapy, and exercises. The nurse is great and walks me through all the exercises I can do at home with him. I also have a small baby pool that he walks in several times a week. I’m still in shock how much he has improved when all odds were against him. This is a true miracle and i owe it you for all the help and education you have put into your website and this forum! You are a true angel! My Pete would be dead had I not found your website and forum! I can not thank you enough!!! 🙌🏽💖🥰
|
|
|
|
Post by Romy & Frankie on Jul 17, 2021 15:08:30 GMT -7
Thank you for the kind words. So good to hear the excellent news about Pete!
Now is the time to determine how you are going to ease him back into more normal activity at graduation. The idea is to gradually give more freedom under controlled conditions. Not free reign of the house and yard immediately! LOL Take a look at our information and then come up with a plan to gradually increase activity over about a month's time following the end of crate rest.
Make your home back friendly with ramps instead of stairs, blocking off furniture and training to keep all four paws on the ground:
i2.wp.com/dodgerslist.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/home-back-protect-banner_700-45kb.jpg
We have more ideas and tips in living with an IVDD dog:
Lisa, we invite you to hop on to our educational bandwagon team. Education about disc disease is our number one mission! We wish we did not have to hear of another dog that was put to sleep because of disc disease, nor one denied the correct principles of STRICT rest to help them heal. We would like all of our members to pay forward for the help they have received with their dog by helping us educate! Pick what suits you.... -- "Share" our FB posts www.facebook.com/Dodgerslist -- When in conversation at the grocery store line or wherever you may meet breeds most prone to IVDD (Dachshunds, Beagles, Poodles, Spaniels, Shih Tzus, Pekingese, and Chihuahuas) give out our free little wallet cards. Hand carry our literature and introduce us to your vet. Ask Linda to send you a free brochure packet for your vet too:
|
|
PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,528
|
Post by PaulaM on Jul 17, 2021 20:13:04 GMT -7
Lisa, thank you so very much for the update! It was in the cards for Pete to walk again and he proved it to be true! What about the pain he had been having? What did the holistic vet think and prescribe or are no pain meds needed at all? Is he fully off of prednisone too? Would LOVE to have a photo of Pete for the photo Gallery. Here are the details of putting Pete in the Gallery. dodgerslist.boards.net/thread/2262/add-dog-dodgerslist-photo-gallery |
|
