Sherry & Barney
New Member
MALE- Dachshund (7/24/21 🌈) . HEART, siezures
Posts: 7
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Post by Sherry & Barney on Jul 5, 2021 6:18:28 GMT -7
[Original subject line: Barney, my Dachshund ]
Barney is having his 3rd episode of IVDD. Has been crated for 2.5 weeks. Was doing very well. Progress. I was encouraged but he had major setback yesterday. Yelped when he went potty & he’s worse today. We were being so careful. He yelped again when he tried to move head. This is a cervical episode. I have gone back to ▲Tramadol 2 x day & ▲gabapentin every 6 hours. He’s also taking galliprant.
[Moderator's Note. Please do not edit 17 lbs 16y.o crate rest started 6/16 Galliprant relapse/restarted 6/16: ?mgs ?x/day Rx'd for # days? traMADol ?mgs 2x/day gabapentin ?mgs 4x/day name of heart meds ?mg ?x/day name of seizure meds ?mg ?x/day needs GI tract protector, Pepcid AC, on board w/GALLIPRANT! ]
I might mention he is 16 years old. Please tell me what else I can do. Does anyone have an idea why he’s experiencing a major setback?
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PaulaM
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Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,493
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Post by PaulaM on Jul 5, 2021 7:12:28 GMT -7
Sherry, welcome to the Forum. There could be several reasons for pain to resurface. You can help us by filling in the blanks so we know best how to comment. Medication infoDog's weight? How many mgs of traMADol twice a day? How many mgs of Gabapentin 4 times a day? What date did Galliprant start? Galliprant ?mgs ? times a day. For how many days was the Rx. Had Galliprant been stopped since the initial Rx? What is the date the very STRICT rest 24/7 started? Since the first sign of the neck disc had you been doing the STRICT rest this way: ◼︎No laps ◼︎no couches ◼︎no baths ◼︎no sleeping with you ◼︎No chiro therapy whys: dodgerslist.com/2020/04/22/chiropractic/◼︎No dragging or meandering at potty times. ◼︎No PT for conservative dogs during 8 weeks to heal disc ◼︎At home laser or acupuncture for severe neuro damage is best. ◼︎ Transports are always a risk to the disc of too much movement. Vet visits must be weighed risk vs. benefit for dogs with little to mild neuro diminishment. ◼︎ Avoid dangerous detours. Follow the "Roadmap." Tape it to your fridge. D/L and print out: dodgerslist.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/Roadmap-for-Fridge.pdf Is there pain only? No indication of any neuro diminishment such as front or back legs weak/wobbly? No paws knuckling under? Or slow to place the paw back to the correct position on the floor? Are you doing this extra things to help with a neck disc?https://dodgerslist.com/2020/05/05/cervical-care-tips/ Are you taking advantage of all the tips to make STRICT rest go smoother and understanding how key limited movement is in order to get the neck disc to heal and prevent damage to the spinal cord, protect the stomach from the acids Galliprant causes (Pepcid AC® -famotidine): 1) dodgerslist.com/2020/05/14/strict-rest-recovery-process/2) dodgerslist.com/2020/05/06/stomach-protection/%E2%80%8B?highlight=pepcid%20ac Let us know when you have health clearance and Pepcid AC on board.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,493
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Post by PaulaM on Jul 5, 2021 7:21:39 GMT -7
The most typical approach to get pain in full control is a multimodal approach of three pain meds. Each pain med deals with a different kind of pain. All the pain meds have a short time of about 8 hrs in the body. So an every 8 hr prescription keeps the pain at bay, til Galliprant can get all painful swelling resolve in about 7 to 30 days. Can you get in touch with your vet today, if not go to ER to get the meds adjusted. SIGNS OF PAIN: ⚙︎ shivering-trembling ⚙︎ yelping when picked up or moved ⚙︎ tight tense tummy ⚙︎ arched back, ears pinned bac ⚙︎ restless, can't find a comfortable position ⚙︎ slow or reluctant to move in suite such as shift positions ⚙︎ not their normal perky interested in life selves ➕if a neck disc: ◻︎ head held high/ nose to the ground ◻︎ looks up with just eyes and does not move head and neck easily. ◻︎ not eating due to painful chewing or in too much overall pain ◻︎ holds front or back leg up like flamingo bird, not wanting to bear weight Methocarbamol for very typical neck disc muscle spasm pain. Rx'd 3x/day Tramadol as the general analgesic. Rx'd 3x/day. Gabapentin for nerve pain. Can usually be Rx'd 3x/day when all three meds are on board. Does your dog have health issues that Galliprant was chosen rather than a more powerful broad spectrum non-steroid (NSAID). There are many such as Rimadyl (carprofen), Deramaxx, etc. - Answers here: dodgerslist.com/2020/04/18/steroids-vs-nsaids/** i.postimg.cc/9MqP4ndF/healingsweling.jpg
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Sherry & Barney
New Member
MALE- Dachshund (7/24/21 🌈) . HEART, siezures
Posts: 7
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Post by Sherry & Barney on Jul 5, 2021 11:37:47 GMT -7
[Please do not edit this post. Moderator has read and marked post to organize the chain of events and the date each happened on. Please add missing data in a new post in this same thread. Thanks! ]
Galliprant chosen since he has a heart murmur & seizures. On meds for each [name, mgs x/day for each?].
He was knuckling in the beginning & could barely use front legs. Episode began 6/9, but I didn’t crate. He was in a room with baby gates up. A week later, [relapse] pain started 6/16 and I began strict crate rest, took back to vet. He’s been on strict crate rest since then & was getting much better until yesterday [7/5].
I was using all the tips here. He weighs approximately 17 lbs. He had stopped knuckling, legs working, etc. Of course I kept strict crate rest, only out to potty.
I had stepped down pain meds [date?] since he was doing so well. Only galliprant & gabapentin 1 x day until yesterday & started back gabapentin every 6 hours and tramadol every 12. Galliprant once daily. He hasn’t shown any signs of stomach irritation, just constipation. He eats pumpkin mixed with food. He has been to vet twice with this episode & I will call as soon as they open tomorrow. This is the 3rd time I am dealing with this, so I know what to do. He was doing so well & then yesterday began yelping in pain. I immediately gave meds. Can’t stand him to be in pain. He’s my baby. I will get him through this! Just want to make sure I am doing everything I can. Thank you so much for this site.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,493
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Post by PaulaM on Jul 5, 2021 13:17:49 GMT -7
Sherry would you help us? We do best with simplicity of a list with date matched with the event including pertinent details of mgs, times per day, etc.MED LIST needing update for missing info in pink:17 lbs 16y.ocrate rest started 6/16Galliprant relapse/restarted 6/16: ?mgs how many times/day? date Rx was changed?: ?mg ?x/day as of 7/4: ?mg ?x/day gabapentin as of 7/4: ?mgs 4x/day traMADol as of 7/4: ?mgs 2x/dayname of heart meds ?mg ?x/day name of seizure meds ?mg ?x/day needs GI tract protector Omeprazole or other heart compatible, on board w/GALLIPRANT!
It can take from 7 days to 30 days comprised of several courses of Galliprant before all the cord swelling is gone. This is why we are interested in all the details of Galliprant history since the relapse of 6/16. You can learn more... just how a NSAID works during a disc episode and the method used to test if all cord swelling is really gone. How pain meds are handled during the test stop (end of a course) NSAID (Galliprant). Very good reading for you here: dodgerslist.com/2020/04/18/steroids-vs-nsaids/ Questions on above missing list of information: -- Galliprant re-started due to lack of crate rest relapse to disc on June 16? -- Galliprant was dosed at how many mgs? -- Galliprant was dose times per day on June 16th? Provide a date for each time the dose in mgs and the times per day have been changed since June 16th.What kind a recovery suite is now employed to make sure there is strict rest? Wire crate, Pac N Play, wire ex-pen or ..? Out out of the suite only at potty time: Carry to and from the recovery suite to the potty place and then allow a very few limited footsteps. Using a sling (long winter scarf, ace bandage, belt) will save your back and help to keep a wobbly dog’s back aligned and butt from tipping over. A harness and 6 foot leash is to control speed and keep footsteps to minimum as you stand in one spot. An ex-pen in the grass is an excellent alternative to minimizing footsteps with the physical and visual to indicate there will be no sniff festing going on! CONSTIPATION Plain pureed canned pumpkin can help with constipation (Tramadol can cause cause constipation) when there is extra hydration. It is a magical fruit - its high fiber can firm up stools and help with diarrhea or loosen the stool to help with constipation. NOTE: alternatives are really ripe mashed fresh pear, just take off the peel off; microwaved and mashed peeled sweet potatoe. --To loosen the stool, add equal parts water to each kibble meal and soak overnight. At mealtime add one teaspoon of plain canned pureed pumpkin 1x a day.-- To firm up the stool add 1 teaspoon plain canned pureed pumpkin 1x a day to kibble. Give a teaspoon of pumpkin for every 10 pounds of body weight. Are you giving 2 teaspoons once a day for your 17lbs Barney?
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Sherry & Barney
New Member
MALE- Dachshund (7/24/21 🌈) . HEART, siezures
Posts: 7
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Post by Sherry & Barney on Jul 10, 2021 14:07:40 GMT -7
[Posted under a new thread "Steroids" and moved under Barney's thread. One thread per dog, please.]
My dachshund, Barney is in the process of his 4th conservative treatment. Not a candidate for surgery, is 16 yo, & also has a heart murmur. After 3 weeks of strict crate rest, he began having knuckling of front paws [1st reporting of a NECK disc] again. I talked to vet yesterday & we are going to try steroids for 21 days. He has been taking Galliprant. She said to stop Galliprant for 48 hours before starting the steroids. He is also on Gabapentin & Tramadol. I’m worried about the steroids, though. Having 2nd thoughts. Anyone been through this?
[Moderator's Note. Please do not edit 17 lbs 16y.o crate rest started 6/16 due to wobbly legs and knuckling **Galliprant relapse/restarted 6/16: Rx'd for 24 days; STOPPED 7/10 **Predisone to be started 7/12? : 5mgs 2 x day for 7 days, then a test taper for: _pain / _neuro 7/4 yelped upon backing off of pain meds. 7/9 front paws knuckling again traMADol 25mgs 3x/day Can cause seizures! Gabapentin (Seizure + IVDD nerve pain) formula: ?mg/ one mL?: 0.5 ml 3x/day Zonisimide (Seizure) 50mg twice/day Enalapril (heart) 2.5 mg once/day
**needs heart friendly GI tract protector Omprezole (??), on board if a switch to steroid then also sucralfate) ]
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Post by Romy & Frankie on Jul 10, 2021 14:54:09 GMT -7
If Barney has had recent blood work that shows all that his organs are in good health, there is no reason to be afraid of steroids. The steroid class of meds is stronger than the NSAIDs like Galliprant. But, 21 straight days on any anti-inflammatory is longer than we usually see. Most often, the vet will prescribe the steroid for 5-7 days and then taper. At the time of the taper the pain meds are usually stopped or cut back. If no pain or worsening of neuro symptoms are seen the swelling in the spinal cord is gone and no further meds are needed. All that is needed at that point would be the remainder of the 8 weeks of crate rest. If during the taper, pain or worsening of neuro symptoms are seen, more time on the anti-inflammatory and pain meds are needed. It is not uncommon for dogs to have several tapers before all the swelling is gone.
Switching from an NSAID like Galliprant to a steroid type of medication can be dangerous without a 4-7 day washout where neither med is in the body. When the vet considers the situation to be critical to preserve neuro functions a vet may think the risk of a switch from the NSAID class of anti-inflammatory drugs to the steroid class is worth the benefit to save nerve function. That switch would be done without a 4-7 day washout BUT not just one GI tract protector would be on board but two of them: A acid reducer like Pepcid AC (famotidine) plus Sucralfate. Since Barney is showing a decrease in neuro function with his paws knuckling, switching to the steroid makes sense. Please speak to the vet about adding the prescription medication Sucralfate to an acid reducer like Pepcid AC.
Sucralfate will require timing with other meds. You can read more about that here:
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,493
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Post by PaulaM on Jul 10, 2021 15:58:34 GMT -7
Sherry, we feel just awful that lack information, has not allowed us to give you the best comment for Barney when you first wrote back on July 5. Just learning today Barney has a neck disc explains the possibility of why Barney is having troubles. Neck discs are very painful and harder to deal with. Galliprant was very specifically designed to target arthritis pain not designed nor tested for a disc episode. So Galliprant would not be the best choice for a neck disc. Steroids are often used for neck discs or a broad spectrum NSAID such as Rimadyl (carprofen), Metacam (meloxidyl) and other canine anti-inflammatories that CAN target inflammation of IVDD. Sherry we need your help please with other missing information marked in PINK about Barney. Give for each med the mgs and time per day given Name of steroid to start with 2 days washout on 7/11: ?mg ?x/day for 21 days7/9: front paws knuckling again traMADol ?mgs 2x/day gabapentin ?mgs 4x/day name of heart meds ?mg ?x/day name of seizure meds ?mg ?x/day
Please let us know you were successful in talking about the points Romy made above with your vet: 1) A heart murmur stomach protector is on board (ask about omeprazole) to suppress acids 2) A different kind of stomach protector SUCRALFATE is on board as well since is a neuro emergency to quickly switch from Galliprant to steroid (name?) with out a 4-7 days of washout. Time (hours) matters with new or increased neuro function loss. Let us us know what your vet says today Sat July 10.
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Sherry & Barney
New Member
MALE- Dachshund (7/24/21 🌈) . HEART, siezures
Posts: 7
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Post by Sherry & Barney on Jul 10, 2021 17:10:24 GMT -7
Heart meds-Enalapril 2.5 mg once daily. Seizure meds- Zonisimide 50mg twice daily. Gabapentin 0.5 ml every 8 hours with 25 mg Tramadol same time.
Galliprant was started upon first seeing he was having disc episode-6/9/21. First week we did not have him in pac & play. 6/16 started strict crate rest. He showed improvement, but 7/4, he yelped in pain..then I started to see knuckling again.
He continues same. I called vet back yesterday saying not improving, so that’s when she prescribed Predisone.
Said have to wait 48 hours only & didn’t mention Pepcid. I am concerned that isn’t enough time. He’s not in any pain now. Meds are working good, but he is really wobbly & has limited use front legs when we take him to potty. Allow as few steps as possible for this. I love him more than life & have been sleeping beside his pack n play on an air mattress.
I also worry vet doesn’t really care? since he’s 16 yo.
She has discounted my observations about other things & said I worry about him too much.
Sorry I didn’t answer but couldn’t figure out how to reply.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,493
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Post by PaulaM on Jul 10, 2021 17:25:12 GMT -7
Sherry, once nerve damaged has happened such as knuckling on 7/4 then all there is to do is wait on the body to self heal nerves. Prednisone is NOT going to heal nerve damage. The time to move to prednisone is at the hour (asap) when the nerve damage first happens. Prednisone then can begin to get the spinal cord swelling down in hopes of no more escalating nerve damage occurring. Now it is 7 days past when the knuckling damage happened again. Now you must wait for Barney's body to self repair nerve damage on his own timeline. Be specific about the use of the word "improving" There are several things that improve and each one takes a different treatment to get it to improve. Do you have the ROADMAP so you can refer to it and use the word correct to describe what is improving or not improving. ROADMAP Avoid dangerous detours with the Conservative Roadmap for your fridge. VIEW, DOWNLOAD and print: dodgerslist.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/Roadmap-for-Fridge.pdf You and your vet really do not know if all the painful swelling is gone or not. The only way to really know is to STOP the Galliprant to test for pain. Also STOP the traMADol and the gabapentin for nerve pain. Observe if no pain then no need for aNY IVDD MEDS. PROBLEM he's taking gabapentin for siesures, right. Then you may not be able to stop gabapentin.Tell us more about the gabapentin... .discuss with your vet. Please read up on how the stop test for pain works with a nsaid like GALLIPRANT and a disc episode so you can best talk/discuss things with the vet. Excellent reading about use of anti-inflammtories during a disc epidode.- dodgerslist.com/2020/04/18/steroids-vs-nsaids/
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Sherry & Barney
New Member
MALE- Dachshund (7/24/21 🌈) . HEART, siezures
Posts: 7
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Post by Sherry & Barney on Jul 10, 2021 17:27:48 GMT -7
Forgot to include Predisone is 5 mg. 2 x day for 7 days/once daily [7-day prednisone course] for 7 & 1 tablet every other day for 7days.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,493
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Post by PaulaM on Jul 10, 2021 17:35:49 GMT -7
Is the wobbly legs now a NEW thing as of today, or getting worse as of today? If old nerve damage from 7/4 or so.... AGAIN prednisone will not help heal the nerve damage.
Again, first there needs to be an assessment if there is actually an painful spinal cord swelling for any anti-inflammatory drug (galliprant or prednisone) to work on.
If no pain, with the stop of galliprant and the traMADol (gabapentin you'll need to ask the vet since it may be needed to act as a seizure med) THEN no IVDD meds are needed at all. No pain meds, no anti-inflammatory med are needed. Achievement of no painful spinal cord swelling improvement would have been reached.
All that remains is for Barney's body to self heal --- his nerve for nerve improvement. --- Finishing out STRICT crate rest for disc scar formation (disc improvement) will happen on graduation day of Aug 11.
Can you get a hold of your vet? Otherwise having stopped Galliprant on 7/9 is just one part of the full test to observe for pain. Then when vet is open on Monday you can ask about doing the other part of the test for pain by stopping or backing off the pain meds: -- traMADol can cause siezures. You need to discuss the proper way to go off it as part of the test for pain stopping of galliprant. -- GABApentin is being used to control seizures and it is likely controlling nerve pain from the disc episode.. You need your vet's guidance if gabapentin should be backed down during the Galliprant STOP test for pain.
Please keep us posted if you are observing any signs of pain surface with the stop of Galliprant. That would indicate Barney still needs the Galliprant (or to proceed with the switch to Prednisone) and needs pain meds back on board for the disc episode painfulness.
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Sherry & Barney
New Member
MALE- Dachshund (7/24/21 🌈) . HEART, siezures
Posts: 7
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Post by Sherry & Barney on Jul 11, 2021 6:55:43 GMT -7
Wobbly legs is not new. A week after this started, he began knuckling & wobbly legs. He would try to walk a few steps & fall on his face. (When going potty). I appreciate all the info-I’m not going to start steroids-just have a feeling that it’s not the thing to do. By improvement I mean I don’t see the knuckling as much & he walks better when going potty.
Stopped Galliprant Saturday 7/10. He’s been on it since disc episode began, so little more than 4 straight weeks. We will give his little body time to heal. Soon I can begin taper off pain meds. That’s what I was doing when he yelped 7/4 and I started them back full force (Gabapentin & Tramadol).
[Moderator's Note. Please do not edit 17 lbs 16y.o crate rest started 6/16 due to wobbly legs and knuckling **Galliprant relapse/restarted 6/16: Rx'd for 24 days; STOPPED 7/10 **Predisone to be started 7/12 : 5mgs 2 x day for 7 days, then a test taper for: _pain / _neuro 7/4 yelped upon backing off of pain meds. 7/9: front paws knuckling again traMADol 25mgs 3x/day Can cause seizures! Gabapentin (Seizure + IVDD nerve pain) formula: ?mg/ one mL liquid?: 0.5 ml 3x/day Zonisimide (Seizure) 50mg twice/day Enalapril (heart) 2.5 mg once/day
**needs heart friendly GI tract protector Omprezole (??), on board if a switch to steroid then also sucralfate) ]
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Post by Ann Brittain on Jul 11, 2021 8:01:19 GMT -7
Please watch for any signs that Barney is experiencing pain. And as Paula mentioned talk to your vet about weaning off of his pain meds. Also be sure to keep him on crate rest to give his nerves time to heal.
At 16 he may not rebound as quickly as a younger dog, so give him all the time he needs to recover. I never liked keeping our dogs on meds longer than necessary, but I'd rather have my dog on meds a day or two longer than necessary then to take them off too soon. It could mean going back to square one which is something I'm sure you don't want to do.
Keep us posted on Barney's progress.
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