Isabel & Misfit
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F-border collie/ belgian sheppard/berniese
Posts: 20
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Post by Isabel & Misfit on Feb 28, 2021 1:49:27 GMT -7
[Original subject line: 4 Slipped Discs since several months] Hi unstable on her back legsarched back sometimes 27kg [59.52 lbs]eating and drinking well, normal poops. my dog’s name : Misfit, and I’m Isabel, I leave in New Zealand but I’m French. Misfit is 10 years old, female, cross border collie/ belgian sheppard / berniese She has 4 slipped discs. But she has had this for several months. We did not notice it because it started when she was out of his convalescence after a surgery for a hip replacement. Then, she had pancreatitis. All this delayed the diagnosis. The surgeon who saw his MRI said it doesn't require surgery. However, she is very unstable on her back legs. Despite the fact that she has had this problem for many months, do you think that with strict rest she can walk normally one day ? she doesn’t have any treatment, we whent to see her surgeon this week and he didn’t gave her anything. We’ve got an appointement with her vet next week. Thank you Isabel
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Marjorie
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Post by Marjorie on Feb 28, 2021 7:48:29 GMT -7
Welcome to Dodgerslist, Isabel. So glad you’ve joined us all. We’ve got valuable information we’ve gleaned from the vets Dodgerslist consults with and our own experiences with IVDD since 2002 to share with you. Know more about us and how we team up with veterinarians: dodgerslist.com/about-team-dodgerslist/Having an arched back is a sign of pain. If she has pain, then she still has compression on her spine. You need to immediately crate Misfit to protect the spine from further damage and get her to a vet ASAP. This cannot wait until next week. An anti-inflammatory needs to be prescribed ASAP to work on the swelling that's pressing on the spine. That pressure on the spine not only causes pain but it also can damage nerves, resulting in loss of neuro function, so the sooner the swelling goes down, the better. Misfit also needs pain meds to mask the pain until the swelling goes down, which usually takes 7-30 days. Have no patience with pain as pain hinders healing and Misfit should be allowed to heal in comfort. Pain meds prescribed here in the US are Tramadol as a general pain med, Methocarbamol for the pain of muscle spasms and Gabapentin for nerve pain, all needed 3x/day. She also needs a stomach protector, such as Famotidine (main ingredient in Pepcid AC if available to you), to protect against the side effects of the anti-inflammatory. The hallmark component of conservative treatment is the very STRICT crate rest part (no PT, little movement). With little blood supply discs are much slower to form good scar tissue than it takes a blood rich broken bone to heal. Those weeks of a cast for a broken arm to heal is similar to the recovery suite being a kind of cast for the disc. 100% STRICT crate rest 24/7 for 8 weeks provides limited movement to allow good strong scar tissue to form. Super tried and true tips for setting up the recovery suite, the mattress and more! —> dodgerslist.com/2020/05/14/strict-rest-recovery-process/STRICT means: ◼︎no laps ◼︎no couches ◼︎no baths ◼︎no sleeping with you ◼︎no chiro therapy whys: dodgerslist.com/2020/04/22/chiropractic/ ◼︎no dragging or meandering at potty times. ◼︎no PT for conservative dogs during 8 weeks to heal disc ◼︎At home laser or acupuncture for severe neuro damage is best. Transports are always a risk to the disc of too much movement. Vet visits must be weighed risk vs. benefit for dogs with little to mild neuro diminishment. We usually tell people to carry their dogs in and out to their potty spot but with a large dog, you'll need to think of ways to limit Misfit's steps to only a very few at potty time. Try a pee pad right outside the crate. Add caster wheels to a wire crate and wheel down ramp over steps to outside. Using a sling (long winter scarf, ace bandage, belt) will save your back and help to keep a wobbly dog’s back aligned and butt from tipping over. A harness and 6 foot leash is to control speed and keep footsteps to a minimum as you stand in one spot. An ex-pen in the grass is an excellent alternative to minimizing footsteps with the physical and visual to indicate there will be no sniff festing going on! Knowledge is the power to fight the IVDD enemy and win!! The very best thing you can do for YOU, the caregiver, and for your dog is to get up to speed on IVDD soonest possible. Owner understanding ensures proper conservative treatment principals: ▶︎ 4 phases of healing, what it takes to heal each phase: dodgerslist.com/in-the-right-place▶︎ Roadmap for your fridge so the whole family is on board. Stay the course, avoid dangerous detours for the healing disc: dodgerslist.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/Roadmap-for-Fridge.pdf Since Misfit can still walk though is unstable, this is a rather mild disc episode so with proper treatment, she should recover well. Please let us know what the vet says after the exam. Healing prayers for Misfit.
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Isabel & Misfit
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F-border collie/ belgian sheppard/berniese
Posts: 20
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Post by Isabel & Misfit on Feb 28, 2021 11:07:49 GMT -7
She doesn't have arched back now, but she used have it and I think it was when she had her pancreatitite. She had an IRM [MRI?] this week and the surgeon so it. We started to keep her in a crate, and call back the vet for the meds.
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PaulaM
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Post by PaulaM on Feb 28, 2021 20:04:14 GMT -7
Isabel, good to hear until you have a firm diagnosis (if this is a current disc episode that has caused the increased wobbliness), you are crating! For disc disease, crating prevents a current bad disc from further damaging the spinal cord.
If this would be a disc episode it is the disc that needs STRICT rest inside of a recovery suite for 8 weeks of the date the episode happened. This is how a disc self heals. The body has the ability to self heal nerves... No one will be able to give you a date. Nerves are the slowest part of the body to heal.
The KEY questions you want answers to are: -- is this a current disc episode where Misfit needs time in the crate to heal the disc? -- If not a current disc episode but something that happened several months ago, it may be time to begin a program of physical rehabilitation.
What kind of surgeon saw the MRI week of Feb 21? An ortho surgeon? A neurologist surgeon?
What kind of vet are you supposed to call back for the meds? You local family vet? Or?? What are the meds supposed to do for Misfit? What disease or problem are the meds for?
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Isabel & Misfit
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F-border collie/ belgian sheppard/berniese
Posts: 20
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Post by Isabel & Misfit on Feb 28, 2021 21:12:16 GMT -7
Hi, Thank you for your answear. The surgeon we so : Prof Andrew Worth PhD, PGDipVCLinSc, BVSc Professor of Small Animal Surgery He is the same surgeon who operated her hip.
I don't know if it's a current disc episode or not. Is it something the surgeon can say to me? Is it something he can see on the IRM? The only thing he said that there is nothing to do, but no need surgery.
But yes it's not new but since several months. So maybe we can call back her surgeon to know if she needs to stay in the crate or do physical rehabilitation ? Will she be abble to walk like before with this ? If it s not a curent episode it's to late to do the conservative methode and there is no chance for her to walk like before ? I thought to call our family vet to ask meds against the pain, maybe she doesn't show us she is in pain but maybe there is some little pain? Well sorry it's quite confuse and I'm lost with all this possibilities. Thank you. Isabel
I think it's chronic because it happened slowly and I never saw her show signs of pain, the only time I saw her in pain was when she had her pancreatitis.
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Marjorie
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Post by Marjorie on Mar 1, 2021 7:46:01 GMT -7
Thank you for the clarification, Isabel, that there are no signs of current pain.
Since an MRI was recently done, the surgeon can tell so much from that. You need to ask him if he found any compression (pressure) on the spine. If there was still compression on the spine at the time of the MRI last week, then you need to do 8 weeks of strict crate rest and an anti-inflammatory, pain meds and a stomach protector need to be prescribed. If there was no compression on the spine shown on the MRI, then some physical therapy can be done.
It's not too late for Misfit to heal. Nerves can take months to heal, even a year or more. At this point, you need to find out whether there is currently disc compression or not so you know better how to go forward.
We'll be awaiting an update from you after you speak to the surgeon.
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Isabel & Misfit
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F-border collie/ belgian sheppard/berniese
Posts: 20
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Post by Isabel & Misfit on Mar 2, 2021 15:25:58 GMT -7
Hello, thank you for your message. We requested the MRI and the debrief but still haven't received it.
However, we so ouf family vet and he confirmed to us that she is not showing signs of pain, it’s true she is in a good mood and always d’like to play.. He told us that we can start physical rehabilitation.
But he also said that his way of walk has deteriorated since the last time he saw her, and that it can continue to deteriorate or remain as it is. What kind of exercises to do? Can we improve her situation and prevent it from deteriorating? thank you so much for your help so far. Isabel
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PaulaM
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Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
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Post by PaulaM on Mar 2, 2021 17:23:34 GMT -7
Isabel, we would love to hear what the surgeon says regarding the MRI. Specifically if the MRI shows a recent (current tear of the disc). IF a recent disc episode, you would not start any PT until after having given STRICT rest from the date of the tear. IF there is worsening of neuro functions as your family vet is saying, then that is serious to know why (the name of the diagnosis). Often a diagnosis of a disc episode can be the cause of neuro diminishment. There are also other diseases that have similar signs, but very different treatments. While most dogs have pain during a disc episode, there are some few who do not. You really need a diagnosis where the name of the disease is given to you. We can only offer useful information when we have all the facts — a diagnosis from a vet. We look forward to your getting the name of the specific disease that is causing deterioration of neuro function from the surgeon with his read of the MRI. Until you have a diagnosis in hand from the surgeon, it would be prudent to act as if this is a current/recent disc episode. Acting as though this is a current episode means the suspected bad disc can be stopped from further damaging nerves. Hopefully Misfit need only be in her recovery suite til next week or sooner when you can communicate with the surgeon. Hopefully you will learn it is not a current disc episode but some other disease that will allow PT. You may wish to get a handle on what disc disease is in the meantime. Knowledge puts you inposition to ask good questions so your mind is satisfied with what the surgeon diagnoses. Check it out: 1) A Flyer on Maladie du Disque Intervertébral, MDI in French dodgerslist.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/General-bro-french.pdf2) Shortcut Through IVDD with narrated in English to accompany graphics and text: dodgerslist.com/2020/06/26/time-and-ivdd
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Isabel & Misfit
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F-border collie/ belgian sheppard/berniese
Posts: 20
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Post by Isabel & Misfit on Mar 9, 2021 2:51:27 GMT -7
Hi, We finaly got the conclusion from her surgeon :
[MRI taken week of Feb 22, 2021]: "Multifocal degenerative disease of the spine including spondylosis deformans and dehydration of the nucleus pulposus at multiple sites
Dorsal bulging of the intervertebral discs at T9-T10 and T12-L3, with associated spinal cord compression at T9-T10 (minimal), T12-T13 (mild) and T13-L1 (minimal)."
He also gave us a list of medications (I don't understand why he didn't gave it 2 weeks ago...)
[Moderator's Note. Please do not edit 27kg /59.52 lbs 10 y.o. Name of each med as of 3/9: ?mg ?x/day ]
Isabel
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Marjorie
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Post by Marjorie on Mar 9, 2021 6:24:35 GMT -7
Thank you for sharing the results with us, Isabel.
With the finding of spinal cord compression on the date of the MRI, you now have proof that strict crate rest is what is needed to heal the damaged discs. A full 8 weeks of very strict crate rest is needed with no PT. Please confirm that you've continued with the strict crate rest continuously since 2/28. I do hope that has been done despite your regular vet's recommendation to start PT.
It would be most helpful to us if you could give us a list of medications that Misfit is now on including the name of each med, the date started and for how many days to be given, the dosage in mgs and the frequency given. I also do not understand why it's taken two weeks to get Misfit on meds.
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Isabel & Misfit
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F-border collie/ belgian sheppard/berniese
Posts: 20
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Post by Isabel & Misfit on Mar 9, 2021 13:53:38 GMT -7
Hi, we kept her at rest, however she broked the door of her crate to escape, so we let her in a very small place in the living room (and she can't walk in the house like this). It is also very complicated because we do not have a garden and live up a hill, and she refuses to poop in front of the house. We carry her to the car to make her poop on a flat place, without making her walk, I realize it's not good but I have trouble finding an ideal solution.
She is a very high energy dog and she is very frustrated, but we do our best to keep her calm and not mooving.
We are giving to her gabapentin 100mg (from her family vet) morning and evening since one week. But we can give more as she is not so calm with it.
The surgeon prescribed 6 Cephalexin 500mg twice daily and Carprofen 50mg for 5 days twice daily then once daily for an other 5 days (and he precribed gabapenten too but we already started it). we will seek these treatments from her family vet today with ✙something [Scourban Plus] to protect her stomach as well.
[Moderator's note: please do not modify 27kg / 59.52 lbs Carprofen as of Mar 9 : 50mg 2x/day for 5 days, then 1x/day for 5 days Note: The recommended dosage for oral administration to dogs is 2 mg/ lb of body weight daily. The total daily dose may be administered as 2 mg/lb of body weight once daily or divided and administered as 1 mg/lb twice daily. Gabapentin 100mg 2x/day Cephalexin 500mg 2x/day ✙Scourban Plus® Kaolin (clay), pectin for treatment of GI infections needs GI tract protector, Pepcid AC, on board w/carprofen! ]
What do you think about the conclusion from the surgeon ? It's look very bad ? Thank you for all your advises. Isabel
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Post by Romy & Frankie on Mar 9, 2021 14:47:59 GMT -7
I know that some dogs get anxious in the crate but crating is very important in the conservative treatment of IVDD. A small space in the living room may not be enough to prevent too much activity. It is the inactivity enforced by crate rest that allows the disc to heal. We always use the analogy of a broken arm. A cast is put on the broken arm to keep it from moving allowing the pieces of the broken arm to heal. The cast does not heal the broken arm it provides the conditions where the bone can heal. This is similar to how crate rest works. Strict rest prevents further spinal cord damage and to allow the outside of the disc to form secure scar tissue.
For dogs who have trouble adjusting to the crate there are options for a recovery suite that will prevent too much activity. For a dog the size of Misfit, an ex-pen may work better than a crate. An ex-pen may seem less confined to Misfit but if it is set up correctly will provide the same protection from excessive activity. Here is a picture of how it could work:
There are ways to help her keep calm in the crate. Here are some ideas:
If none of these ideas work, and her anxiety is causing her to move too much, you can speak to your vet about a sedative like trazodone or Acepromazine
While lifting and carrying an IVDD dog can be safely done by making sure the back is kept straight, Misfit is 59 lbs and must be difficult to carry in a way that keeps the back straight. Knowing the importance of this, do everything you can to keep her back in alignment.
The surgeon's report confirmed disc compression which is consistent with IVDD. But the report noted the compression was minimal in two areas and mild in the other. Misfit is currently walking, so she should be a good candidate for recover with the conservative treatment of strict crate rest.
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Isabel & Misfit
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F-border collie/ belgian sheppard/berniese
Posts: 20
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Post by Isabel & Misfit on Mar 14, 2021 17:39:12 GMT -7
Thank you [Romy] for you precious advices and your work. Isabel
Hi Misfit hasn't pooped for 3 days, we're afraid she won't heal by taking her to the bathroom in the car, and she refuses to do in front of the house. We put some kind of fake grass to encourage her, she ended up urinating on it but still refuses to defecate. What to do ? continue to bring her by car? our house is surrounded by hill, nothing is flat...
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PaulaM
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Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
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Post by PaulaM on Mar 14, 2021 18:38:19 GMT -7
Isabel, try putting another dog's urine or a bit of their poop on the fake grass to help encourage Misfit to poop there.
Also the longer poop stays in the digestive tube the more firm it becomes. Misfit may be experiencing some constipation.
Plain pureed canned pumpkin is a magical fruit - its high fiber can firm up stools and help with diarrhea or loosen the stool to help with constipation. NOTE: alternatives are really ripe mashed fresh pear, just take off the peel off; microwaved and mashed peeled sweet potatoe
--To loosen the stool, add equal parts water to each kibble meal and soak overnight. At mealtime, give 2 TBSP (28 grams) of plain canned pureed pumpkin 1x a day. -- To firm up the stool add 1 teaspoon plain canned pureed pumpkin 1x a day to kibble.
Misfit's weight:27kg /59.52 lbs 1 teaspoon of pumpkin for every 10 pounds of body weight
QUESTION What is the name of the stomach protector you asked the family vet to prescribe on March 9? This is an important detail!
Please describe the kind of food you are feeding her: -- dry kibble dog food -- canned dog food __ other? please describe
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Isabel & Misfit
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F-border collie/ belgian sheppard/berniese
Posts: 20
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Post by Isabel & Misfit on Mar 14, 2021 20:05:39 GMT -7
Her medication to protect her with the anti inflammatory is scourban plus. Since her pancreatitis few months ago she just eating Biscuits from Hills Digestive Care i/d low fat. Thank you for your advises. I will do them.
[Moderator's note: please do not modify 27kg / 59.52 lbs Carprofen as of Mar 9 : 50mg 2x/day for 5 days, then 1x/day for 5 days Gabapentin 100mg 2x/day Cephalexin 500mg 2x/day Scourban Plus® as of Mar 9: Kaolin (clay), pectin for treatment of GI infections Not pooped since Mar 12 needs GI tract protector, Pepcid AC, on board w/carprofen! ]
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PaulaM
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Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
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Post by PaulaM on Mar 14, 2021 20:51:40 GMT -7
Isabell Scorban Plus is not an acid suppressor that protects the stomach lining from the dangers of Carprofen! Reading about each med your dog gets, is a second defense for safety and being able to ask good questions. What was the purpose to Rx Scourban Plus®? Were you told it was because of bacteria: "Gastrointestinal, respiratory and urogenital infections caused by sulfadimidine sensitive microorganisms like E.coli, Staphylococcus, Streptococcus and Pasteurella spp. in calves, cattle, goats, poultry, sheep and swine, and coccidiosis caused by Eimeria spp. in poultry. " www.interchemie.com/veterinary-medicines/sulfadimidin-ws.htmlScourban Plus® contains Kaolin (clay) and pectin. www.glovet.com/our-products/bayer/scourban-plus/ These two ingredients could cause constipation!Misfit is still taking Carprofen and has nothing Rx'd to suppress stomach acids! Good reading on stomach protectors so you have a basis for advocating for one: dodgerslist.com/2020/05/06/stomach-protection/It would be of real help to us in understanding things. Could you always report the Rx of meds with ---the exact name
--- The dose in mgs or mL ? --- How often given? ✙ Scourban Plus® on Mar 9: ?mgs ?x/day Kaolin (clay), pectin for treatment of GI infection Dog has not pooped since Mar 12
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Isabel & Misfit
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F-border collie/ belgian sheppard/berniese
Posts: 20
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Post by Isabel & Misfit on Mar 14, 2021 21:33:51 GMT -7
Ok good to know, the family vet gave it to us to protect her stomach and intestin against the medications prescribed by the surgeon. (we so she had an intestin ulcer on the xray we did after her pancreatitis but she is fine now).
We give ▲Carprieve [carprofen] 50mg half tablet twice daily (since today, before it was 2X20mg twice daily)[? conflicting info!] and ▲gabapentin 100mg 3 daily.
Sorry for the conflicted info : I was referred to the prescription but we were subsequently given 20mg carprive for the first 5 days and not 50.
The family vet doesn't whant we give to her the cephalexin because of her intestin problems in the past. Update : she defecated on her bed an hour ago...
Scourban plus 10ml twice daily, 20mn before her medication.
[Moderator's note: please do not modify 27kg / 59.52 lbs Carprofen as of Mar 9 : 20mg 2x/day for 5 days; then 1x/day for 5 days as of Mar 14: ▲25mgs 2x/day Gabapentin 100mg ▲2x/day Scourban Plus® 10mL 2x/day; Kaolin (clay), pectin ]
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Isabel & Misfit
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F-border collie/ belgian sheppard/berniese
Posts: 20
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Post by Isabel & Misfit on Mar 15, 2021 23:35:30 GMT -7
Misfit got ✙omeprazol 20mg since today and we stoped the scourban plus.
MRI also showed the following: Multifocal degenerative disease of the spine, including spondylosis deformans and dehydration of the nucleus pulposus at several sites. By doing some research on the spondylosis deformans, the veterinarians advocate to keep moving. Do you think that these 8 weeks of crate can worsen this situation in relation to this disease?
[Moderator's note: please do not modify 27kg / 59.52 lbs 10 y.o. Carprieve (carprofen) as of Mar 9 : 20mg 2x/day for 5 days; then 1x/day for 5 days as of Mar 14: ▲25mgs 2x/day Gabapentin 100mg ▲2x/day ✙omeprazole as of 3/15: 20 mg 2x/day ]
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Marjorie
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Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
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Post by Marjorie on Mar 16, 2021 7:27:40 GMT -7
Spondylosis is arthritis of the spine. It has to do with abnormal vertebrae (bone) problem and is due to aging. The vertebrae can be unstable and it is the vertebral bone that causes damage by pressing on a healthy disc. That healthy disc then squishes into the spinal cord canal where it damages the nerve bundle. Exercise can help with that. Misfit's MRI does not show that there is any compression of the spine due to spondylosis.
However, the MRI did show spinal cord compression on the spine as a result of bulging discs and the treatment for that must take precedence over the treatment for the spondylosis. In order for a damaged disc to heal, movement of the spine must be limited for 8 weeks. Too much movement of the spine and the not-yet-healed disc can tear more or rupture, resulting in more pain/nerve damage. The nerve damage could result in loss of bladder/bowel control or paralysis which may become permanent. That would be tragic.
Once the 8 weeks of strict crate rest are finished and the damaged discs have healed, then Misfit can gradually start to be reintroduced to movement again and a gradual exercise program can be done to help with the spondylosis.
Which vets have told you that Misfit should keep moving? The surgeon? Regular vet?
How often each day are the 20mg of omeprazol being given? Do be aware that it can take 5 days for Omeprazol to reach peak effectiveness.
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Isabel & Misfit
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F-border collie/ belgian sheppard/berniese
Posts: 20
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Post by Isabel & Misfit on Mar 16, 2021 10:52:43 GMT -7
thank you for explaining all of this to me. The surgeon, the regular veterinarian, and some research on the internet about the spondylosis, they all said to keep moving. The usual vet even thinks that this is the end for Misfit and that she must be left free to enjoy her last moments. So you give me back some hope.
omeprazol: 20 minutes before the meal twice a day. the vet gave this yesterday but we had to insist heavily to have something for her stomach...
I just need to clarify myself about the carprive because I so I disn't explained correctly :
they give a first boxe of 20mg 20mg : 2 on the morning and 2 on the evening for 5 Days
Then they gave a New boxe of 50mg: 50mg : an half on the morning and an half on the evening for the next 5 days.
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Post by Romy & Frankie on Mar 16, 2021 13:35:27 GMT -7
I do not see anything on the surgeons report to indicate that Misfit is at the end of her life. IVDD is a treatable disease and is not fatal.
Spondylosis is a sort of arthritis of the spine and is usually seen in older dogs. This is fairly common as dogs age and is also not fatal. I am really not sure why your vet thinks it is the end for Misfit.
As Marjorie mentioned, the MRI does not show that there is any compression of the spine due to the spondylosis. There is spinal cord compression caused by bulging discs, IVDD. So the compression of the spinal cord which causes the pain and neuro deficits can be treated conservatively with strict crate rest for 8 weeks. The crate rest does not allow for much movement and it is that lack of movement that helps heal the disc. Too much movement of a healing disc can cause further spinal cord damage. After the 8 weeks of crate rest is over Misfit can slowly return to activity that will help with the Spondylosis.
Omeprazol is a good acid reducer but it can take up to 5 days to reach peak effectiveness. Pepcid AC starts working in 30 minutes. Some vets are reluctant to prescribe stomach protectors and prefer to wait until there are signs of a problem. Dodgerslist supports vets who are proactive in prescribing a stomach protector to avoid problems in the first place.
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PaulaM
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Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
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Post by PaulaM on Mar 18, 2021 9:16:28 GMT -7
Isabel, There is a bit more to understanding about disc episodes and what the treatment is with large breed dogs at a senior age. Hansen Type I disc disease can occur in any breed. However, mostly Type I tends to be in the short legged small breed dogs such as Dachshunds, Shih Tzus, French Bulldogs, Chihauhaus, etc.
You described Misfit as a 27kg (60lbs) 10 year old mix of cross border collie, Belgian shepherd and Berniese. That puts her in the large breed category. After carefully re-reading all of your posts, there is a missing important piece of information in the small part of the diagnosis you posted. Maybe in the full written report, more detail is there?
Would you confirm with the surgeon which kind of disc problem Misfit has?
Ask your surgeon which type of disc disease Misfit has with diagnosis of "Dorsal bulging of the intervertebral discs at T9-T10 and T12-L3, with associated spinal cord compression at T9-T10 (minimal), T12-T13 (mild) and T13-L1 (minimal): 1) Hansen Type I disc disease? or 2) Hansen Type II disc disease? 3) Did the surgeon interpret from the Feb 22 MRI a new/recent disc problem or chronic on-going disc problems.
You will find a need also to have a clear understanding which type of disc problem Misfit has. Knowledge allows you to be on board with the treatment that fits your dog's disease.
Thanks Isabel for pursuing these questions with your surgeon.
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Isabel & Misfit
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F-border collie/ belgian sheppard/berniese
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Post by Isabel & Misfit on Mar 18, 2021 12:53:00 GMT -7
below, the full report. Before the [2/22/2021] MRI the surgeon spoke of chronic. Misfit showed the first signs several months ago, maybe 6 months ago, and has gradually worsened. So it's not a recent episode.
[report on MRI taken 2/22/2021]: MRI of the cervical, thoracic and lumbar and sacral spine from C1-Cd2. TW2, STIR and T1W sequences of the cervicothoracic spine in a plane. T2W and T1W sequences of the thoracolumbar and lumbosacral spine in a sagittal plane. T2W sequences of two regions of the lumbar spine (from mid-body of T8 to mid-body of T11 and from the mid-body of T12 to the mid-body of L4) in a transverse plane.
Significant findings: There is reduced nucleus pulposus T2W signal intensity at C7-T1. Ventral to T7-T9, there is smooth new bone compatible with spondylosis deformans. There is mildly reduced nucleus pulposus T2W signal intensity at these levels.
At T9-T10, there is mild dorsal bulging of the intervertebral disc from the ventral aspect of the vertebral canal, with loss of visualisation of the ventral subarachnoid space and subtle dorsoventral flattening of the spinal cord at this level compatible with minimal spinal cord compression.
There is smooth new bone ventral to T12-L3 compatible with spondylosis deformans moderately reduced nucleus pulposus T2W signal intensity at these levels.
At T12-T13, there is mild dorsal bulging of the intervertebral disc from the left ventral aspect of the vertebral canal, with loss of visualisation of the ventral subarachnoid space and mild dorsoventral flattening of the spinal cord at this level compatible with mild spinal cord compression.
At T13-L1, there is mild dorsal bulging of the intervertebral disc from the ventral aspect of the vertebral canal, with loss of visualisation of the ventral subarachnoid space and minimal dorsoventral flattening of the spinal cord at this level compatible with minimal spinal cord compression
At L1-L2, there is minimal dorsal bulging of the intervertebral disc from the ventral aspect of the vertebral canal, with narrowing of the ventral subarachnoid space. There is no associated spinal cord compression seen at this level.
At L2-L3, there is minimal dorsal bulging of the intervertebral disc from the ventral aspect of the vertebral canal, with narrowing of the ventral subarachnoid space. There is no associated spinal cord compression seen at this level.
No other abnormalities are seen in the osseous or soft tissue structures of the cervical, thoracic, lumbar or sacral spine. No abnormalities are seen in the included portions of the brain, thorax or abdomen.
Impressions: • Multifocal degenerative disease of the spine including spondylosis deformans and dehydration of the nucleus pulposus at multiple sites
Dorsal bulging of the intervertebral discs at T9-T10 and T12-L3, with associated spinal cord compression at T9-T10 (minimal), T12-T13 (mild) and T13-L1 (minimal).
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Post by Romy & Frankie on Mar 18, 2021 14:11:51 GMT -7
The fact that the surgeon spoke of a chronic conditions sounds like Hansen's type II. But dog's with chronic IVDD (Hansen's Type II) can sometimes have acute episodes. It would help to know if the surgeon thought that any of the discs involved were more recent problems.
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Isabel & Misfit
New Member
F-border collie/ belgian sheppard/berniese
Posts: 20
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Post by Isabel & Misfit on Mar 21, 2021 16:28:52 GMT -7
the surgeon confirms she has type 2 only. (He sent us the MRI images if you want to see them). Can we start hydrotherapy? acupuncture at home? What else can we do to help her?
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,493
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Post by PaulaM on Mar 21, 2021 18:36:31 GMT -7
Isabel, thank you for going the extra mile to get that last bit of detail. We are not veterinarians and very much depend on all the facts from a vet to be able to comment properly. Your surgeon has the trained eye to read an MRI that we do not have. Even surgeons often have a specialist read and interpret an MRI for them. The neuros Dodgerslist consults, also say if an MRI confirms the degree of spinal cord compression is minimal and there are no neuro deficits activity can be on the list for a senior dog. Just to summarize Misfit's Hansen Type 2 discs: -- Hansen type 2 IVDD, chronic disc, most often occurs in older canine breeds that do not have dwarfed short legs which small breed dogs have. -- Type 2 disc is a normal aging process of a disc that shows wear and tear in senior dogs. It is not a diseased disc. -- Type 2 definitely continue to show wear and tear just as happens with people. The center part of the disc has become aged and more hard and fibrous loosing its younger jelly like softness. -- Type 2 discs typically tend to just protrude/bulge without the fear of rupture. --Regardless IF a type 2 were to be showing NEW/INCREASED neuro deficits (scuffing, ataxia, wobbly, knuckling) the dog should be on STRICT rest at once. Otherwise there is the chance of doing permanent harm to the spinal cord. Isabel, would not be a bad idea to take things slowly and gently with Misfit. Start a slow and gradual return to activity so you can monitor things. Be watchful that being too overly active might cause sore muscles. Don't want to be confused about simple muscle soreness vs. something more serious. Even just walking can helps with arthritis. Underwater treadmill is very back friendly and gentle. Swimming also can be gentle exercise. Both of these kinds of hydrotherapy can help with arthritis pain caused by spondylosis deformans (SD).
Discuss with your holistic vet about acupuncture or laser therapy to assist with SD arthritic pain, too. Maybe over time not as much or no gabapentin would then be needed for arthritic pain. Just something to think about/discuss what is best for Misfit. Please do from time to time let us know how Misfit continues to do. What you chose as a form of exercise....walks, etc. to help "keep her moving." Best wishes for many happy years ahead!
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Isabel & Misfit
New Member
F-border collie/ belgian sheppard/berniese
Posts: 20
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Post by Isabel & Misfit on Apr 19, 2021 23:04:43 GMT -7
Hi,
Since last time we talk, Misfit had several acupuncture treatments at home, it was not easy the first time, but she likes it now and she is very relax with it and after, and seems to help her a lot. She has also hydroterapy (just once a week, we Hope to do more soon) it's help her too a lot, and we do 2/3 little walks a day with a back legs harness. She seems more stable, not in pain and happy. Hope she can continue to improve.
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Marjorie
Moderator~
Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,722
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Post by Marjorie on Apr 20, 2021 7:58:07 GMT -7
Thank you for the encouraging update, Isabel. You have two very helpful treatments on board, both acupuncture and hydrotherapy. Is the hydrotherapy on an underwater treadmill?
Glad to hear that Misfit is more stable, not in pain and is happy. Excellent news!
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,493
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Post by PaulaM on Apr 20, 2021 9:18:51 GMT -7
Isabel, thank you for the nice update on Misfit. So very glad to hear she is not in pain and happy and regaining some stability!
Do let us know if the water therapy is water treadmill.
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Isabel & Misfit
New Member
F-border collie/ belgian sheppard/berniese
Posts: 20
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Post by Isabel & Misfit on Apr 20, 2021 13:08:40 GMT -7
HI, yes it is an underwater treadmill.
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