Natasha & Usagi
New Member
F - Basset Hound . . . ..Dx is osteoporosis
Posts: 21
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Post by Natasha & Usagi on Jan 6, 2021 21:56:44 GMT -7
[Original subject line: Ivdd diagnosis Usagi ] Hi my name is Natasha Evans. My 11 year old basset hound Usagi (pronounc U soggy) was diagnosed with IVDD and some arthritis in her back hips on dec 29 2019. The vet is a DVM. She was sent home on 4 meds Carprofen 100mg half a tablet every 12 hours Methocarbamol robaxin 500mg 1 tablet every 12 hours Tramadol 50 mg 1 tablet every 12 hours Gabapentin at first she was given 300mg 1 every 12 hours how ever it sedated her to the point she could use her rear legs and they removed the gabapentin for 48 hours. After she started walking normally again they put her back on Gabapentin at 100mg every 12 hours she's had No adverse affects since then
[Moderator's note: please do not edit 42 lbs. Carprofen as of 12/29: 50mg 2x/day for 14 days; then 1/12 stop to test: _pain/_ neuro Methocarbamol robaxin 500mg 2x/day Tramadol 50 mg 2x/day Gabapentin 100mg 2x/day No stomach protection on board with Carprofen and previous pancreatitis!] We were not given any orders for rest of any kind and were told small walks we're okay. My dog weights 42lbs. She still will get pain with trembling and a tight tummy off and on she walks with some stiffness in her rear legs, but she loves going for walks her tail goes straight up and waggs with no issues on her walk even tho she fights me I do keep her walks short in fear she will get worst or hurt herself. She has a harness for walk. She is eating fine and has a healthy appetite. She is squatting to pee normally and doesn't seem to be in pain while doing so, her bowel movement are off and on with diarrhea but the color is normal but she had diarrhea before she started the medications She has always gotten it off and on since she had pancreatitis when she was younger and the vet put her on a prescription dog food for her digestive tract that is helping.
After doing some research I'm highly concerned the vet didn't but her on some sort of rest. Should I be doing it anyway? If so how long and can she still go on short walks like the vet recommend. Also she has her own heated blanket she loves laying with on the couch, we have steps to the couch for her while we wait for her ramp to come in. Can she still use it? And should I contact the vet about the pain she is having even tho it's off and on? Any advice is greatly appreciated. Also any advice on trying to keep her from sneak playing with the other dogs. I caught her trying to pounce on our other bassett. Since she wasnt put on any rest we didn't know how bad IVDD can be we want to do everything we can to help her heal and get better. Thank you
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Marjorie
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Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
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Post by Marjorie on Jan 7, 2021 8:46:08 GMT -7
Welcome to Dodgerslist, Natasha. So glad you’ve joined us all. We’ve got valuable information we’ve gleaned from the vets Dodgerslist consults with and our own experiences with IVDD since 2002 to share with you. Know more about us and how we team up with veterinarians: dodgerslist.com/about-team-dodgerslist/I'm sorry you weren't given any instruction about strict crate rest. It is not too late but strict crate rest MUST be started ASAP today. It takes a full 8 weeks of strict crate rest to heal a damaged disc. Too much movement and the damaged disc can tear more or rupture, causing more pain, more nerve damage, even paralysis and loss of bladder/bowel control, which could result in being permanent. Usagi needs to be confined 24/7 to a recovery suite - a crate, ex-pen. No walking except a very few steps to potty, no steps/stairs. More on strict crate rest below. Yes, you do need to call the vet ASAP this morning and discuss an adjustment of the pain meds. Have no patience with pain as it does hinder healing. Each of the pain meds that Usagi is currently on - Tramadol, Gabapentin, Methocarbamol - all have a short half life and work best when given every 8 hours (3x/day). The dosage of the Tramadol can be increased. Please advocate strongly for a change in pain meds to get Usagi's pain completely under control today. Pain should be completely under control within one hour of giving new course of meds and should remain completely under control from one dose to the next. When you speak to the vet this morning, also speak to them about adding a stomach protector. I understand that Usagi is prone to diarrhea but that is even more reason to add a stomach protector, such as Pepcid AC. Carprofen is known for causing severe side effects with resulting damage to the GI system. Ask if your dog has any health issues to prevent use of Pepcid AC (famotidine)? (doesn’t need it, we wait til there is problem…are NOT answers to your question!) If you get a “no health” issues answer, then go to the grocery store to purchase over the counter Pepcid AC containing one single active ingredient (famotidine). i.ibb.co/DCN9611/91x-Aj-s00z-L-SY355.jpg
Doxie weight dogs: 5mg Pepcid AC (famotidine) every 12 hours. NOTE: Pepcid AC (famotidine) for dogs is 0.44mg per pound, 30 mins before the anti-inflammatory and thereafter every 12 hours for as long as your dog is on the anti-inflammatory. www.1800petmeds.com/Famotidine-prod11171.htmlFor how many days has Carprofen been prescribed for?The hallmark component of conservative treatment is the very STRICT crate rest part (no PT, little movement). With little blood supply discs are much slower to form good scar tissue than it takes a blood rich broken bone to heal. Those weeks of a cast for a broken arm to heal is similar to the recovery suite being a kind of cast for the disc. 100% STRICT crate rest 24/7 for 8 weeks provides limited movement to allow good strong scar tissue to form. Super tried and true tips for setting up the recovery suite, the mattress and more! —> dodgerslist.com/2020/05/14/strict-rest-recovery-process/STRICT means: ◼︎no laps ◼︎no couches ◼︎no baths ◼︎no sleeping with you ◼︎no chiro therapy whys: dodgerslist.com/2020/04/22/chiropractic/?highlight=chiropractic◼︎no dragging or meandering at potty times. ◼︎no PT for conservative dogs during 8 weeks to heal disc ◼︎At home laser or acupuncture for severe neuro damage is best. Transports are always a risk to the disc of too much movement. Vet visits must be weighed risk vs. benefit for dogs with little to mild neuro diminishment. IF you can carry Usagi, carry to and from the recovery suite to the potty place and then allow a very few limited footsteps. Using a sling (long winter scarf, ace bandage, belt) will save your back and help to keep a wobbly dog’s back aligned and butt from tipping over. A harness and 6 foot leash is to control speed and keep footsteps to a minimum as you stand in one spot. An ex-pen in the grass is an excellent alternative to minimizing footsteps with the physical and visual to indicate there will be no sniff festing going on! If Usagi is too big to carry, it is still important that the amount of movement to the potty place be minimized. Try a pee pad right outside the crate. Add caster wheels to a wire crate and wheel down ramp over steps to outside. Try to think outside of the box and come up with ways to limit steps and movement of the spine during potty time. Knowledge is the power to fight the IVDD enemy and win!! The very best thing you can do for YOU, the caregiver, and for your dog is to get up to speed on IVDD soonest possible. Owner understanding ensures proper conservative treatment principals: ▶︎ 4 phases of healing, what it takes to heal each phase: dodgerslist.com/healing-the-disc/▶︎ Roadmap for your fridge so the whole family is on board. Stay the course, avoid dangerous detours for the healing disc: dodgerslist.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/Roadmap-for-Fridge.pdf Please let us know what the vet says after speaking to them this morning.
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Natasha & Usagi
New Member
F - Basset Hound . . . ..Dx is osteoporosis
Posts: 21
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Post by Natasha & Usagi on Jan 7, 2021 22:17:26 GMT -7
She's was given 30 days of carprofen. I called the vet he up her ▲tramadol to 3x a day and said if she's still having pain we will up the dosage. [Moderator's note: please do not edit 42 lbs. Carprofen as of 12/29: 50mg 2x/day for 30 days; then stop to test: _pain/_ neur Methocarbamol robaxin 500mg 2x/day Tramadol 50 mg ▲3x/day Gabapentin 100mg 2x/day ✙Pepcid AC 10mgs TWICE a day]
I started her on the ✙pepcid ac today and she has her crate all set up but she has severe anxiety when she's in the kennel so we ordered all the stuff to set her up pen area in the living room so she doesn't feel trap. He did say no steps or walking other then outside for potty break but he knows how usagi can be and he told us if usagi starts trashing around in her kennel she was to be removed and set up an area on the floor for her with us there to supervisor which we ending having to do today. So other then potty breaks and sitting up for food and pill times she didn't move out of her area.im still concerned about getting her outside to potty I feel like lifting her is hurting her just as bad as the stairs would.we are going to build a ramp for her to use this weekend to go outside I'm hoping that will be less stress on her back.the vet did say she does not have any bulging or herniated disc but she has swelling and is in the very beginning stages but he believes her hind leg stiffness is from the arthritis. So my question is how do I keep her movement limited for her spine but yet keep her back legs mobile? since she has two different issues going on. Also is there anything I can do to help support her back like wrapping her midsection with an Ace bandage or something along that line. I'm also frustrated that we weren't told this a week ago when we took her up there I know with covidmuch more difficult because we don't actually get to go in and see the vet. A vet tech comes and gets the dog they take her men do all the stuff and then the vet tech comes back with the dog and the information and medicine So this whole week we've been taking her for walks and letting her go up and down steps and I hope we didn't set her back on her way to healing.
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Marjorie
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Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,722
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Post by Marjorie on Jan 8, 2021 8:16:42 GMT -7
Good job on advocating for an adjustment to the meds, Natasha. Is Usagi's pain now completely under control, with no sign of pain appearing, now that you have her on Tramadol 3x/day? 30 days to be on Carprofen is a long time. Swelling can take 30 days to resolve but it also can be resolved in 7 days. The only way to tell if swelling has resolved is to stop all meds and see if pain returns. If pain returns, that means there still swelling. Obviously at this point, Usagi still has swelling as she still has pain. The time before Usagi started strict crate rest can't even be counted. It's a bit of a guessing game as to how long to use an anti-inflammatory. Most vets will prescribe it for 7-14 days and then stop to test for pain/swelling. No one wants their pet to be on a NSAID for any longer than is absolutely necessary. More info for your education and in speaking with the vet here: dodgerslist.com/meds-used-during-disc-episodeI'm glad to hear that Pepcid AC is now on board. What dosage is she being given? If Usagi is experiencing a difficult time adjusting to a crate or ex-pen, it may be necessary for the vet to prescribe a mild sedative. Think of a crate/recovery suite as a cast for the spine. Dogs so often do the unexpected and it could just take one episode of too much movement for the damaged disc to rupture or tear. The recovery area must be secure and be only large enough for Usagi to stand up, turn around and lie down with her legs comfortably extended. More info on calming during crate rest in the next post. A ramp for Usagi to walk down to potty would be way too much movement for her spine. If you had her in a wire crate, add caster wheels to the crate and wheel her down a ramp to a potty area, that would work. Or you may want to try to add some dirt with her urine or another dog's urine on it to a potty pad and encourage her to use that right outside of her recovery suite. Please don't wrap her midsection with an ace bandage or use any other type of brace. You don't want to add any more pressure to the spine than already is. It's the strict crate rest that will heal any damaged disc. The diagnosis you have been given by the vet is confusing. I'm not at all sure why the vet believes there is no herniated disc or bulging disc and yet has diagnosed Usagi with IVDD. What does he believe is causing the swelling if not a damaged disc? Was an MRI or CT scan done? Many dogs with arthritis have been treated successfully with strict crate rest for an IVDD episode. The IVDD treatment must take precedence and the strict crate rest be done in order to protect the spine from further damage. IVDD can only definitively be diagnosed by MRI or CT scan but that is usually only done just prior to surgery. IVDD is usually diagnosed based on symptoms and breed and whenever IVDD is suspected, strict crate rest must be done for a full 8 weeks.
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Marjorie
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Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,722
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Post by Marjorie on Jan 8, 2021 8:17:18 GMT -7
Try to keep a happy voice and face around your dog. Dogs are very sensitive and pick up on our feelings very easily. Tell him everything's OK and that he's getting better every day. And you believe it, too! Here are some tips to help calm your dog in the crate. If these do not help, it may be necessary to have the vet prescribe a mild sedative. To calm your dog in the crate, it would be a good idea to cover the top with a towel. That should mellow him/her. It also creates a den like feeling that dogs love. Using any oral calmer in combination with a Pheromone diffuser seems to work best. It takes several days for these to start working - it isn't immediate but they are a much better option if you can avoid heavy duty prescription sedatives such as Acepromazine, Trazodone, etc. Of course always keep your vet in the loop on all things you give your dog. Other product brands may be available in your area or on-line… just shop by the active ingredient(s) on the label and the quantity for best price. Place a DAP pheromone diffuser at floor level where the recovery suite is. Dogs: Adaptil (DAP) wall plug in diffuser 48ml www.adaptil.com/us/Products/ADAPTIL-Calm-Home-Diffuser with dog pheromones Use a diffuser with one oral calmer from below: 1) ANXITANE® S chewable tabs contain 50 mg L-Theanine, an amino acid that acts neurologically to help keep dogs calm, relaxed 2) Composure Soft Chews are colostrum based like calming mother's milk and contain 21 mg of L-Theanine. 3) Bach's Rescue Remedy is a liquid 5-herb combo to help with relaxation (Star of Bethlehem – Orithogalum umbellatum, Rock Rose – Helianthemum, Cherry Plum – Prunus cerasifera, Impatiens – Impatiens gladulifera, Clematis – Clematis vitalba) Be aware you might be inadvertently training for unwanted behavior. To dogs rewards are: food, looking at them, talking to them, eye contact, approaching the crate, petting. So anytime you see unwanted behavior ignore it, turn your back, leave the room if you have to. Preferable is to start teaching what you do want before there is too much practice in doing the unwanted behavior. Anytime your dog is sitting or lying down quietly, give a reward. Soon your dog will see they get rewards for four feet on the floor, quietly sitting, etc. Consider some of these ideas: -- Many members have found a pet stroller to solve the whining problem because the stroller can be wheeled from room to room as you go about your activities. Pet strollers, however, should only be used when you are directly supervising and only inside during conservative care. More details on strollers: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/strollers.htm--Caster wheels can be added to a wire crate so the crate can be wheeled from one room to the next so your dog can stay with you. -- Put a garment you have been wearing and have not washed in the crate. -- Nan Arthur, CDBC, CPDT, KPACTP writes: "According to the book, Stress in Dogs, by Martina Scholz & Clarissa von Reinhardt, the most well-behaved dogs get 17 or more hours of rest and sleep per day. Teaching self-calming exercises can also help your dog to relax more. You can make something as simple as eye contact a very rewarding behavior that also acts as a way for your dog to “ask permission” when he wants something. When dogs have a focus and an understanding about how to behave to get what they want, they are much calmer overall. To do this, each time your dog looks at you, say, something like, “Yes!” or use a clicker to mark the second he looks at you, and then give your dog a high-value food reward. Wait for your dog to look up at you again, say, “Yes,” and reward again. Do this exercise 10 or so times and then say, “All done,” and put the treats away. Come back later and do it again until you can see that your dog is really starting to make automatic eye contact in hopes you will say, “Yes,” again and give him his reward. " [NOTE: treats should be subtracted from the normal daily kibble ration so as not to gain weight during crate rest.] -- If your dog won’t get too excited seeing what’s happening outside, during the day try putting the crate on the coffee table or the dining room table so there will be a view out a window and a better perspective on what is going on in the house from on high. -- Play classical music or one of the wildlife TV shows. -- Fill a Kong with soft dog food and freeze. Put part of the dog's total daily dinner kibble in the Kong to lengthen time to consume dinner. Good low cal snacks are carrots, apples, or frozen green beans, licking a frozen low sodium broth ice cube. Good thick low salt/no fat chicken broth is full of cartilage-building proteins and amino acids. Freeze it up into cubes for easy access as you need it. Fun and keeps the body hydrated: place cubes in a bowl for licking. If a dog is jumping up at the sides of the crate, you can lower the ceiling of the crate. Cut a piece of cardboard the size of the top of the crate, punch holes in the corners and tie the cardboard down into the crate to the level of the top of the dog's head when standing. Or cover the top of the crate with a blanket or towel, bringing the blanket/towel down to the level of the dog's eyes so when he/she jumps up, he won't be able to see anything. That may discourage him/her from jumping up. dodgerslist.com/2020/05/14/strict-rest-recovery-process/dodgerslist.com/2020/02/24/tips-to-help-with-recovery-suite/
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Natasha & Usagi
New Member
F - Basset Hound . . . ..Dx is osteoporosis
Posts: 21
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Post by Natasha & Usagi on Jan 9, 2021 12:35:47 GMT -7
Thank you so much for all the information and help Yes her pain is completely under control now I've not had any issues. since she was having such a hard time with the crate we did the playpen set up she's doing really well with it other than going outside for the bathroom she's been in here sleeping and eating very minimal movements we lift her to go outside with the harness and a sling. I will not wrap a bandage around her thank you for the advice Her pepcid AC is 10 mg every 12 hoursAnd I am trying to get the information from the vet I know x-rays were done I'm assuming an MRI since he gave that diagnosis I have a call in about the carprofen. I know they also said she had arthritis and her hips perhaps that's why they gave her the carprofen was for her hips.? Once I hear I will let u know
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Post by Romy & Frankie on Jan 9, 2021 14:17:55 GMT -7
An MRI can prove IVDD but many times the vets can diagnose by the breed and the way the dog acts during the examination, so a diagnosis can be made without it. An MRI is usually only necessary if the vet suspects something other than IVDD or immediately before surgery, so an MRI may not have been done.
I am glad that Usagi's pain is under control, and she is adjusting well to the play pen. Quite a few dogs on the list who have had trouble adjusting to the crate have done very well in play pens.
It is possible that Carprofen was given for 30 days because of her arthritis but best to ask the vet. 30 days is a long time to be on an anti-inflammatory.
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Natasha & Usagi
New Member
F - Basset Hound . . . ..Dx is osteoporosis
Posts: 21
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Post by Natasha & Usagi on Jan 10, 2021 12:20:35 GMT -7
I did talk to the vet tech yesterday, the veterinarian is supposed to call me tomorrow. I had her look at the chart again to see the actual diagnosis and she said it says lumbosacral syndrome/IVD. No MRI was taken just a few x-rays. I asked her about the carprofen She [vet tech] said it was given for arthritis for two weeks and the rest is supposed to be take as needed was her understanding but I should double check with the vet tomorrow when he calls.
[Moderator's note: please do not edit 42 lbs. Carprofen as of 12/29: 50mg 2x/day for 14 days; then 1/12 stop to test: _pain/_ neuro Methocarbamol robaxin 500mg 2x/day Tramadol 50 mg 2x/day Gabapentin 100mg 2x/day No stomach protection on board with Carprofen and previous pancreatitis!]
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PaulaM
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Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,493
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Post by PaulaM on Jan 10, 2021 12:33:22 GMT -7
With a test stop of carprofen after 14 days, then the test is on 1/12. Find out which the vets want on the stop of Carprofen to asses about spinal cord swelling: 1) To have a clear picture on a stop, pain meds are also stopped or backed off too. or... 2) On Jan 12 to back off of pain meds (Methocarbamol tramadol and gabapentin in mgs and /or frequency. Let us know what your vet says tomorrow. Rule of thumb is: pain = swelling = more time on non-steroid anti-inflammatory (NSAID), pain meds and Pepcid AC needed.
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Natasha & Usagi
New Member
F - Basset Hound . . . ..Dx is osteoporosis
Posts: 21
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Post by Natasha & Usagi on Jan 11, 2021 8:25:36 GMT -7
Talk to the vet today she's on all her meds until further notice is what he said. He also upped her appointment to this Wednesday he said she'll be on rest probably till the summe. The carprofen was prescribed for her osteoporosis in her lower back and spine. I told her she's been fighting us really hard about her pills She started having pain yesterday [1/10].
[Moderator's note: please do not edit 42 lbs. 11 y.o. Carprofen as of 12/29: 50mg 2x/day for 13 days; then 1/12 stop to test: √1/10 pain/_ neuro as of 1/11: 50mgs 2x/day for ? days, then stop test: _pain/_neuro Methocarbamol robaxin 500mg 2x/day Tramadol 50 mg 2x/day Gabapentin 100mg 2x/day No stomach protection on board with Carprofen and previous pancreatitis!]
We couldn't figure it out until we went to give her her pills at night and we discovered she was hiding them in her jowls and then waiting until we weren't paying attention then spitting them out! I found three of her pill hidden in her pillow😑 but I told him I'm worried about fighting her with the pills cuz she'll shake her neck back and forth and I'm afraid she'll hurt herself So when we go pick up her new hard food today to try and get her to eat he's giving us a pill shooter to help.we have tried all the tricks peanut butter cheese cream cheese inner food and her favorite food of chicken and now she won't eat any of those and when she does eat them she just eats around them and spits the pill out.The vet also said once we get her pain 100% under control she is okay to start getting a light massage on her back. She's also been fighting me every step of the way with everything so she must be feeling a little bit better she's fighting with the pen she's fighting with the kennel She wants to go outside she's fighting me to come back in it's frustrating cuz I feel like we take once of forward and five steps back I'm going to look into getting her a stroller to get her outside and a safe way for "walks" The vet said on [1/6] Wednesday we will look into getting her something like a sedative to calm her down to keep her in the crate but first is pain management under control any advice or tips on any of this is greatly welcome and again thank you guys so much for all of this information it's really helped us to get a better understanding of what we need to do and be prepared we really appreciate it!!!!!
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,493
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Post by PaulaM on Jan 11, 2021 9:28:30 GMT -7
Natasha, the vet is right. Clearly with pain showing with Usagi doing her own test for pain by spitting out her pills and pain showing today, it is not time to do a more formal test for pain on 1/12! Were you able to identify which pills were found in the pillow (was it carprofen in particular)? Tramadol and gabapentin are very bitter. If Usagi has gotten a taste, she will be very supicious and reject pills. It will take some training to change her suspicious behavior. Plan on training her by giving just a bit of cream cheese (or whatever you enclose pills in that she really likes) randomly during the day, acting like it is a pill. Give praise when she swallows it. Then at dosing time, be sure you wash your fingers of any bitter pill dust so it does not transfer to the outside of the pill encased dose. While you may be anxious about pill time, think about something pleasant and relax! If you have some thin deli meat on hand, consider wrapping the pill treat for a new yummy flavor Usagi may not be so suspicious of. Monica Segal, certified nutritionist, offers this great idea in pilling a dog With continued carprofen, do you have a no health is answer from the vet, for acid suppressor Pepcid AC (famotidine) to be on board. Usagi does not need another issue of bleeding ulcers on top a disc episode. What is the stumbling block for getting Pepcid AC on board? What is the reason to switch to a new food? Not recommended while on the big gun IVDD meds. New food and IVDD meds could cause diarrhea. Then you would not be clear why. You'd have to assume the worst of Carprofen caused dangerous red flag diarrhea signs— meaning getting two stomach protectors on board — Pepcid AC as it should have been done at the get go of carprofen and adding an RX for sucralfate. ADVOCATE for an RX to relax is a top priority TODAY! Too much movement can spell disaster for the healing disc. Calmness simply can not wait until pain is under control. Protection of the disc is top priority, now. Ask for a prescription now. If you choose to give a calmer a try at the same time it will take days to achieve effect. Right now you need a Rx from the vet. Using any oral calmer in combination with a Pheromone diffuser seems to work best. It takes several days for these to start working - it isn't immediate. A heavy duty Rx prescription sedative (ACE, alprazolam or trazodone) can give result in 30mins where in a few days you can back off an Rx and see if Usagi is able to relax. Of course always keep your vet in the loop on all things you give your dog. CALMERS: Place a DAP pheromone diffusor at floor level where the recovery suite is: --DOG Adaptil (DAP) wall plug in diffuser 48ml www.adaptil.com/
Use diffusor with one oral calmer from below:
Oral calmers: 1) ANXITANE® S chewable tabs contain 50 mg L-Theanine, an amino acid that acts neurologically to help keep dogs calm, relaxed www.virbacvet.com/products/detail/anxitane-l-theanine-chewable-tablets/behavioral-health 2) Composure Soft Chews are colostrum based like calming mother's milk and contain 21 mg of L-Theanine. www.vetriscience.com/composure-soft-dogs-MD-LD.php
Strollers during a disc episode are for inside the house where the floors are smooth. Outdoor strollering over cracks in sidewalks, bumpy gravel, uneven terrain is not safe nor appropriate during a disc episode. STRICT rest to accomplish disc healing means: ◼︎no laps ◼︎no couches ◼︎no baths ◼︎no sleeping with you ◼︎no chiro therapy WHYs: dodgerslist.com/2020/04/22/chiropractic/ ◼︎no meandering at potty times. ◼︎no PT or walking sessions for conservative dogs during 8 weeks to heal disc ◼︎ IF paralyzed legs, when off ALL meds an no pain, then and only then very light range of motion and massage: dodgerslist.com/2020/05/26/range-of-motion-massage/◼︎ avoid dangerous detours. Follow the "Roadmap." Tape it to your fridge. D/L and print out: dodgerslist.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/Roadmap-for-Fridge.pdf
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Natasha & Usagi
New Member
F - Basset Hound . . . ..Dx is osteoporosis
Posts: 21
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Post by Natasha & Usagi on Jan 11, 2021 10:27:42 GMT -7
It was the tramadol and gabapentin that she fights taking and spit out. She isn't switching food per se she's on the same food [change from canned to dry] but she was on the canned food there switching it to the dry formula. We will try the tips with the pills and they are going to have something for her to help keep her calm when I go to pick her meds up today.also she's on pepcid ac 10 mg every 12 hours was that being a half hour before her meds
She's been on pepcid ac [started 1/8] since I joined this form and and read about it so almost a week
[Moderator's note: please do not edit 42 lbs. 11 y.o. Carprofen as of 12/29: 50mg 2x/day for 14 days; 1/12 stop test: √1/10 pain/_ neuro as of 1/11: 50mgs 2x/day for ? days, then re-test stop: _pain/_neuro Methocarbamol robaxin 500mg 2x/day Tramadol 50 mg 2x/day Gabapentin 100mg 2x/day Pepcid AC 10mg 2x/day]
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Post by Jessica on Jan 11, 2021 10:53:22 GMT -7
Great to hear the Pepcid AC has been on board, Natasha. We'll update this in your profile. The usual dosage of Pepcid AC (famotidine) for dogs is 0.44mg per pound, 30 mins before the anti-inflammatory and thereafter every 12 hours for as long as your dog is on the anti-inflammatory. At 42 lbs., Usagi would be advised to take 20mgs at each dosing. After you pick up the calming medication, please let us know the mgs and dosing frequency that has been prescribed. Many people have found the use of a prescribed calmer helpful during crate rest. It can be difficult when they want to move around as they improve. Many of the natural calming methods that have been noted in previous posts can be added along with a prescription. As Paula mentioned, tramadol and gabapentin are bitter. I found putting those pills in a more stinky treat helped to mask the smell and taste of the bitterness. When changing food (even the same) you may wish to transition slowly. Some of the old with the new, until you can fully feed the now dry food with confidence. DogFoodAdvisor recommends: "Most experts recommend transitioning to a new food gradually — starting with about 20-25% “new” and slowly increasing that amount to a full 100% over a 7 to 10 day period. Be patient and don’t rush the transitioning process. Take your time to minimize the chance of GI upset." www.dogfoodadvisor.com/frequently-asked-questions/diet-rotation-for-dogs/You can ask your vet for more information on this to ensure a smooth transition.
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Natasha & Usagi
New Member
F - Basset Hound . . . ..Dx is osteoporosis
Posts: 21
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Post by Natasha & Usagi on Jan 11, 2021 15:57:17 GMT -7
They told me to give her ✙Benadryl 25 mg in the morning and 25 mg at night thank you and see how she does before we try anything else she is currently cuddled up in her crate sleeping!!!! Hopefully it will continue
[Moderator's note: please do not edit 42 lbs. 11 y.o. Carprofen as of 12/29: 50mg 2x/day for 14 days; 1/12 stop test: √1/10 pain/_ neuro as of 1/11: 50mgs 2x/day for ? days, then re-test stop: _pain/_neuro Methocarbamol robaxin 500mg 2x/day Tramadol 50 mg 2x/day Gabapentin 100mg 2x/day ✙Benadryl (as a calmer) 25mgs 2x/day Pepcid AC 10mg 2x/day]
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Post by Romy & Frankie on Jan 12, 2021 14:30:04 GMT -7
I am glad that the Benadryl is working to keep Usagi calm in the crate. If she is able to sleep that will help you both.
Have you had success at giving her the meds? It can be hard to give meds to a dog but there are a number of techniques as Jessica mentioned. You can also try a piece of sweet banana. The pill will stick inside a little ball. If need be wrap with a thin piece of deli meat to make even more yummy.
The small size marshmallows also make a good pill pocket as the stickiness keeps the pill from falling out.
Is she showing any signs of pain?
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Natasha & Usagi
New Member
F - Basset Hound . . . ..Dx is osteoporosis
Posts: 21
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Post by Natasha & Usagi on Jan 12, 2021 19:00:14 GMT -7
I started the bait and switch idea for her pills with hot dog pieces today and it worked pretty well. I only have to fight her on 2 pills.
As far as pain goes its better but I did she her shivering today both times with an an hour of when her pills were due.
She has a vet appointment tomorrow and I made up a list of questions for him and I'm going to discuss upping her dosage of pain killers and also the best way to lift her for taking her out because I don't want to cause her anymore pain or cause any damage. Lifting a bassett hound that goes dead weight is difficult it's like lifting a 40 something pound slinky.
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PaulaM
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Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,493
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Post by PaulaM on Jan 12, 2021 21:00:56 GMT -7
Natasha, a dogs visits into a vet are more normally reserves for only the most critical of things. Things such as adjustments of med are handled over the phone with vets who are IVDD knowledgeable as they understand the need for limited movement of the healing disc. Not worth the risk to the healing disc of too much movement with a difficult to lift and safely support both ends in carrying a 40 lbs dog in and out of a vehicle to get a med adjustment
See what can do to have a phone call appointment where you report what your eyes see (e.g shakes 1 hour before next dose of -name the med(s), rather than to give your conclusions - dog is in pain. Pain that is better is just not good enough. Every 12 hr pain meds do not remain in the body at a good level. The pain meds used with IVDD have a short life. Their level in th e body starts to decline at 8 hrs. No wonder nearing 12 hrs pain is surfacing!
Advocate on the phone for the three pain meds every 8 hrs as pain is surfacing before the next dose since you dose every 12 hrs
Find out on the phone what date there will be a Carprofen stop to assess if all painful spinal cord swelling is gone. This is valuable information for you to know. Vets simple have to guess when to try the stop. Many will chose a 7-day carprofen course and they the stop test for pain. Other vets may see the need for a 14-day course and then a test stop. Let us know which your vet wants.
How is benedryl working to help Usagi relax in her suite?
Good to hear you are having success with the sneaky pill switch idea.
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Natasha & Usagi
New Member
F - Basset Hound . . . ..Dx is osteoporosis
Posts: 21
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Post by Natasha & Usagi on Jan 13, 2021 16:26:15 GMT -7
She went to the vet today [1/13/21] for an mri they said no bulging or herniated disc
but she does have severe osteoporosis of the spine and arthritis and rear hips he did up her pain medications all to every 8 hours except for the carprofen it's still every 12 hrs. He also said to feed her small meals throughout the day to help with the pressure on our spine. She's allowed light activity such as walking around the backyard alittle and small walks no more then 5 min and no stairs still or jump ect. She did really well today but this evening she did get a few muscle spasms. She also gets a muscle spasms when she's anxious and she had a lot of them today when she was up at the vet She hates going to the vet.I'm keeping a close eye on her still and still limiting most activty till pain is completely under control.
The vet did say she could still get Ivdd because of the osteoporosis in the spine and she's a long stout dog.
He recommended we get ramps for outside, bed,and couch and no rough housing with the other dogs and that when she's getting a full stomach it's putting pressure on her spine when she goes to the restroom so again smaller meals to help with that. He also said if she's still having pain we will up the dosage of her medications. I would like to start her on a supplement to help I'm not quite sure where to look for for that. As far as the carprofen he said two more weeks and then we'll wean her off if she needs to start it back up we will do a blood test first to check her liver to make sure it's okay but we just did a blood test before she started it and everything looked good.do you guys have any suggestions for therapy that will help her with pain? Also thank you guys so very much you have been a godsend during this time to help me with speaking with my vet and advocating for my dog and understanding IVDD I appreciate it so much.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,493
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Post by PaulaM on Jan 13, 2021 17:29:21 GMT -7
Natasha, what were the credentials of the vet who gave the diagnosis by reading the MRI? A specialist neuro (ACVIM) or a ortho (ACVS) or you family DVM vet?
This Forum rather narrowly focuses on one disease because we feels with years of study, consults with specialists and other veterinary professionals we have good good information to share. This is why we also refrain from commenting on other diseases.
Osteoporosis is a bone disease that occurs when the body loses too much bone, makes too little bone, or both. As a result, bones, vertebrae, etc become weak and may break. You will need to do your own research on supplements that may help this bone disease. Did you find out if the diagnosing vet suggested a modification to diet in light of Osteoporosis?
Arthritis can be in the spine joints called "facets" or anywhere there are joints. Often getting moving can heal to ease pain. The opposite of an IVDD disc episode diagnosis!
Maybe this bit of information will give you a jumping off point to begin learning all you can about Usagi's new diagnosis.
Of course we send you and Usagi heartfelt best wishes to find and follow a good path in obtaining good level of comfort with this new diagnosis.
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Natasha & Usagi
New Member
F - Basset Hound . . . ..Dx is osteoporosis
Posts: 21
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Post by Natasha & Usagi on Jan 13, 2021 17:41:43 GMT -7
He's a dmv. [vet giving diagnosis of Osteoporosis]
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,493
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Post by PaulaM on Jan 13, 2021 18:40:31 GMT -7
Where was the MRI done, who read it and explained what they saw on the images to your DVM?
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Natasha & Usagi
New Member
F - Basset Hound . . . ..Dx is osteoporosis
Posts: 21
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Post by Natasha & Usagi on Jan 16, 2021 18:06:10 GMT -7
The animal hospital in my area did [MRI] it and I don't know who but I can find out. I have to call them Monday anyway because she's been having muscle spasms all day and when I talk to them today they thought it was the gabapentin because they upped it in the ▲ tramadol and the ▲ methocarbamol to every 8 hours and she started having muscle spasms/tremors yesterday so they have me cutting down the ▼gabapentin [mgs? frequency detail?]
[Moderator's note: please do not edit 42 lbs. 11 y.o. Carprofen as of 12/29: 50mg 2x/day for 14 days; 1/12 stop test: √1/10 pain/_ neuro as of 1/11: 50mgs 2x/day for ? days, then re-test stop: _pain/_neuro Methocarbamol robaxin 500mg ▲3x/day Tramadol 50 mg ▲3x/day ▼Gabapentin 100mg 2x/day to ?mgs ?x/day Benadryl (as a calmer) 25mgs 2x/day Pepcid AC 10mg 2x/day]
I should also say that she's not in any pain even with having these muscle spasms I thought it was the tramadol but they think it's the gabapentin she's walking around okay and doesn't seem to have any pain She does have some diarrhea but my main concern is the muscle spasms
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,493
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Post by PaulaM on Jan 16, 2021 18:21:55 GMT -7
muscle spasms are a form of pain. Maybe what you observe is not muscle spasms. What exactly do you see with your eyes that you call muscle spasms? ask for sucralfate in addition to Pepcid AC. Diarrhea when carprofen IS a concern. Read about sucralfate: marvistavet.com/sucralfate.pmlSucralfate reacts with stomach acids to form a protective paste at the site of any ulcerations. ~Ideally give Sucralfate on an empty tummy at least 1 hour before feeding or 2 hours after feeding ~If possible, it should be given 30+ minutes prior to the administration of Pepcid AC. ~Give Pepcid AC 30minutes before Prednisone ~Give prednisone with a meal. Pred could be given along with pain meds IF also due at that time. resource: www.marvistavet.com/sucralfate.pmlOne dosing schedule for first dose of the day could be: 5am sucralfate 5:30m pepcid AC 6 am carprofen, tramadol, methocarbamol and gabapentin with breakfast Printable med chart includes how to use and a blank to personalize to your dog's meds: dodgerslist.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/med-chart-printable.pdf
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Natasha & Usagi
New Member
F - Basset Hound . . . ..Dx is osteoporosis
Posts: 21
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Post by Natasha & Usagi on Jan 16, 2021 18:41:26 GMT -7
Like tremors in her front shoulders that move down her front paws. They're not like what she was having when she was in pain she was shaking all over and had a hard stomach when she was in pain. with these they seem to happen mostly when she's at rest and she doesn't seem to have control over them. They wake her up. She didn't start having them till they upped her meds to every 8 hrs.
She's walking well and when I pet her when she's having them she's not yelping or crying like she was when she had the shaking from pain. I will ask them about it for her diarrhea.I was assuming she got it because she wouldn't eat anything but hotdog yesterday.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,493
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Post by PaulaM on Jan 16, 2021 21:14:27 GMT -7
Let us know what the vet believes the muscle spasm to be caused by.
Could you provide the missing detail of these two meds:
Carprofen as of 12/29: 50mg 2x/day for 14 days; 1/12 stop test: √1/10 pain/_ neuro as of 1/11: 50mgs 2x/day for ? days, then re-test stop: _pain/_neuro
▼Gabapentin 100mg 2x/day changed to ?mgs ?x/day
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Natasha & Usagi
New Member
F - Basset Hound . . . ..Dx is osteoporosis
Posts: 21
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Post by Natasha & Usagi on Jan 17, 2021 8:28:41 GMT -7
▲Gabapentin is still 100 mg they had moved it to 3x a day so every 8 hours [1/16 post conflict: "have me cutting down the gabapentin"]
carprofen still 2x a day every 12 hrs and 17 days left of pill then we do a blood test and a stop The blood test is to make sure everything's okay and if she would need them again that it would be okay for her to take them.
[Moderator's note: please do not edit 42 lbs. 11 y.o. Carprofen as of 12/29: 50mg 2x/day for 14 days; 1/12 stop test: √1/10 pain/_ neuro as of 1/11: 50mgs 2x/day for 24 days, then 2/3 re-test stop: _pain/_neuro Methocarbamol robaxin 500mg 3x/day Tramadol 50 mg 3x/day Gabapentin 100mg ▲3x/day Benadryl (as a calmer) 25mgs 2x/day Pepcid AC 10mg 2x/day]
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Post by Ann Brittain on Jan 17, 2021 8:32:41 GMT -7
Thanks for the update.
Did the vet tell you what he/she thought was the cause of the muscle spasms?
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Natasha & Usagi
New Member
F - Basset Hound . . . ..Dx is osteoporosis
Posts: 21
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Post by Natasha & Usagi on Jan 17, 2021 9:36:15 GMT -7
No he hasn't he had me drop her gabapentin back to every 12 hours but he doesn't believe it's the medications [vet on cause of the muscle spasms]. He asked if she'd gotten into anything and ate it but that I can think of no (not saying that it's not possible she's a sneaky dog)She did get diarrhea yesterday [1/16] and had it throughout the night but her muscle spasms have completely stopped. it doesn't appear to have any [no] blood in her stool or anything like that from what I can tell. I was going to bring her up tomorrow if she wasn't doing any better and we were going to do a blood test
The vet called me he's not in office today So he told me as long as she is comfortable and not in pain to give everything every 12 hours for the day try and give the gabapentin at a different time than the other ones and keep an eye on her muscle spasms he said it's possible the gabapentin is causing the muscle spasms and that the tramadol is causing the diarrhea we'll do a blood test tomorrow [1/18]and if everything's okay he will give her something for the diarrhea to help and we'll figure out what to do about the medications cuz he said number one priority is her not being in pain.
I spoke to soon the muscle spasms are back
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,493
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Post by PaulaM on Jan 17, 2021 11:51:31 GMT -7
When there is a med on board that is well known to cause GI tract damage, it is prudent to protect. Red flag signs of likely carprofen stomach damage progresses: nausea> not eating> vomit> loose stool> ulcers> red or black blood in diarrhea> deadly perforated stomach lining.
Confirm please. Are you using Pepcid AC (famotidine) : Dose with Pepcid AC 20 mgs 2x/day (weight of dog X 0.44 mgs Pepcid AC = 20mgs)
For most dogs Pepcid AC alone will protect. When you see red flag signs, then it is prudent to add a second protector (Rx item- SUCRALFATE). It works in a different way to gel coat the stomach wherever stomach lining is eroding away.
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Natasha & Usagi
New Member
F - Basset Hound . . . ..Dx is osteoporosis
Posts: 21
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Post by Natasha & Usagi on Jan 17, 2021 11:57:19 GMT -7
She's on pepcid ac [how many mgs?] 2x a day. She get it every 12 hrs and She hasn't had diarrhea since this morning and her muscle spasm stopped after about 20 minutes and hasn't had them since. She been sleeping most of the morning. I'm going to ask about adding that to help tomorrow morning when I talk to the vet
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