Lindsay & Amber
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FEMALE - spaniel/poodle . . 10/10Torn Knee ligament 4wks rest
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Post by Lindsay & Amber on Sept 14, 2020 11:56:33 GMT -7
Feeling a bit disheartened today. We have been at amber primary care vets pretty regulariliy lately to try and resolve her ear infections and they almost appear clear then we are back to sqaure one and along side this her back pain has been getting worse weekly. She started limping on and of then limping all the time. Occasionally now left back foot scrapes which worries me. Her primary care vet thinks its all to do with pain from her spine and recommended putting her amantadine back up
One of her physiotherapy exercises is to massage her left back leg but if i do she arches her back like she is in pain.
Feel like im going around in circles dont know whether i should be resting her or walking her. Doing her physio or not. And the constant daily ear flushes and head shaking dont help with the back pain.
Im going to call her neurologist tomorrow and just keep hoping something improves.
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PaulaM
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Post by PaulaM on Sept 14, 2020 14:13:56 GMT -7
Lindsay, diminishing neuro function as in now a decrease in placing paw or leg correctly of back paw scraping is to be considered serious enough to crate Amber at once. This would be in case there would be a diagnosis of another disc episode and to prevent further pressure on the spinal cord and further neuro diminshments. If swelling in the spinal cord, then pain meds do nothing but cover up the pain. It is the use of an anti-inflammatory (steroid or non-steroid NSAIDs) that resolve swelling. Read up on amantidine so you know why this is not really a pain med per se: www.marvistavet.com/amantadine.pmlPlease let us know what your neuro thinks is going on with the neuro diminishment and what medications are Rx'd.
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Lindsay & Amber
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FEMALE - spaniel/poodle . . 10/10Torn Knee ligament 4wks rest
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Post by Lindsay & Amber on Sept 14, 2020 17:33:04 GMT -7
CRATE rest as of 9/14 Thank you for replying! Shes now in her crate untill I have a better idea of whats going on. I understand what you mean completley regarding the nsaid/ steroids and amantadine situation. Ive done a lot of reading about pain relief and IVDD since her diagnosis. it concerned me that a high dose of steroids (an anti inflammatory dose) seemed to be more effective than anything else we have tried over the last couple of weeks. Ill update tomorrow once ive spoken to her neurologist I probably should have called sooner but she has been so up and down i wasnt sure what i was seeing. Untill she stopped placing her paw correctly that definitly concerned me.
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PaulaM
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Post by PaulaM on Sept 14, 2020 20:07:53 GMT -7
Will be watching for what your neuro thinks the neuro diminishment cause is.
Glad you took precautions to crate with the pain and new neuro issue.
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Lindsay & Amber
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Post by Lindsay & Amber on Sept 15, 2020 13:22:04 GMT -7
Hi
Just an update. I spoke to ambers neurologist. Appointments booked for early next week to examine her and crate rest in the meantime.
Meds are 5mg prednisolone once daily 200mg gabapentin 3x per day 3.6ml amantadine 2x daily
[Moderator's Note. Please do not edit 9.08 kg / 20.02 pounds Prednisolone as of 9/15: 5mgs 1x/day Gabapentin 200mg 3x/day Amantadine 3.6 ml 2x/day ]
Im going to get a video of her gait at home and update. We have an appointment booked for tomorrow to just incase we can make it but i realistically dont think i will be able to get there for transport reasons.
She has been on crate rest all day today and has mostly just slept. Ive carried her out to toilet breaks just incase. Saw a slight improvement when i first took her out toilet break so im certian the crate rest is helping regardless.
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Post by Romy & Frankie on Sept 15, 2020 13:39:08 GMT -7
Than you for the update.
Until you know what the cause of her symptoms, crate rest is the prudent thing to do. Crate rest for dogs being treated conservatively is stricter than for post-op dogs. Carrying her to potty and not letting her walk will ensure that there will be minimal movement of her back.
Let us know what the neurologist says. We will be wanting to hear.
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Lindsay & Amber
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Post by Lindsay & Amber on Sept 21, 2020 3:55:06 GMT -7
Hi
Just an update. Following ambers appointment. Amber is on another 3 weeks crate rest. Meds the same as previous post.
I was there for exam and amber did react when her lower back was examined so could be pain from existing compression but a lot of pressure was required to get a reaction out of her.
Amber has improved a lot over the period ive had her on strict rest
she did get a little worse she was leaving her left leg behind [neuro] when walking [dragging] and had a few instances where her legs just went out on her but started getting ▲better a couple of days ago and is actually doing ▲much better this morning.
Going to review in a couple of weeks to see how she is doing. May be that she needs the higher dose of amantadine for life. But if she keeps declining she may need another MRI.
Really pleased with her progress so far and so glad i posted when i did. Because i was second gussing what i was seeing
getting her on strict crate rest asap seems to be making a world of difference.
Thanks again everyone for pointing me in the right direction!
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Marjorie
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Post by Marjorie on Sept 21, 2020 4:19:48 GMT -7
Glad to hear that Amber is doing better, Lindsay. Do know that with the loss of new neuro function and back pain that has been seen, unless a diagnosis other than IVDD is given, a full 8 weeks of strict crate rest must be done to heal the damaged disc. Sometimes during crate rest, improvement is seen due to the strict crate rest and the anti-inflammatory getting the pain down; however, that doesn't mean that the damaged disc is healed.
Was it the vet who indicated that Amber may need the higher dose of Amantadine for life? If so, that is confusing as Amantadine is a pain med and does nothing to work on the swelling pressing on the nerves of the spine. Occasionally we have seen dogs who do not respond to conservative care who require a long-term low-dose anti-inflammatory (such as Prednisolone).
For how many days does the vet want Amber on the Prednisolone dosage until a taper is done?
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Lindsay & Amber
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Post by Lindsay & Amber on Sept 21, 2020 9:44:02 GMT -7
Thank you for reminding me about the 8 weeks crate rest i think 3 weeks time is a check in point for us rather than a specific instruction to stop rest.
Amantadine is for chronic pain associated with L4-L5 rather than a further risky 2nd surgery which could leave her with permenant neurological deficits. Honestly in the early days it was unknown whether she would recover as well as she did. Disc was described as chronic wheras before surgery it wasnt thought to be as bad. We unfortunatly dont know what that disc looks like now but is believed to be causing chronic pain. The hope was she could be on a low dose long term as its so expensive but it may be that she needs the two doses at 3.6ml long term.
I think at this point we cant rule out Issues with L4-L5 and an MRI will likely only benefit us if she declines further so we can establish whats going on? Or another disc episode unless her fenstration of T13-L5 rules that out due to the area she is displaying pain.
I think thats probably a question I need to ask next time i call.
Prednosilone is 5mg for 3 wks no taper advice yet given but medication will be reviewed then and taper advice given then.
[Moderator's Note. Please do not edit 9.08 kg / 20.02 pounds Prednisolone as of 9/15: 5mgs 1x/day for 21 days Gabapentin 200mg 3x/day Amantadine 3.6 ml 2x/day ]
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PaulaM
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Post by PaulaM on Sept 21, 2020 10:35:40 GMT -7
When there neuro deficits are involved with chronic pain, the neuros we consult with say crate rest is important. So you did the right thing getting her into a restrictive movement environment.
Now the hope is along with the disc self healing itself in 8 weeks, that the part of the disc aggravating the nerves will with time shrink back, be reabsorbed. If the disc can't be reabsorbed enough to no longer aggravate the nerves, then your neuros will be able to tweak a combo of meds to allow her get back to enjoying family life with the add of a pain med combo. Do continue to keep us posted on your girl.
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Lindsay & Amber
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FEMALE - spaniel/poodle . . 10/10Torn Knee ligament 4wks rest
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Post by Lindsay & Amber on Sept 26, 2020 3:59:51 GMT -7
Just thought id share a little update. Ive had ambers report through from her last appointment she was walking pretty well at her appointment and for a day following so reports no significant abnormalities.
Im following crate rest advice and ive been keeping track of hed progress via video as she has a tendancy to appear totally fine at appointments. I think she is still a bit lame on her left ? But its so hard to judge what im seeing. Thought id share her progress videos below.
This is where we were at before i noticed a decline.
This video i took just before her meds were adjusted after her telephone consult.
This is her now. Still looks a bit lame to me in comparison with her first video they are only 20 days apart.
Last video is taken at toilet time. Just so i have a record of how she is doing. Ive seen the odd nail scrape but nothing in comparison to before and havent seen her legs give out under her at all since crate rest which is good. Little steps in the right direction.
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Marjorie
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Post by Marjorie on Sept 26, 2020 4:53:47 GMT -7
She looks like she's walking very well indeed, Lindsay. But that is way too much walking during strict crate rest. I know you want to see how her neuro function is but that needs to be determined with the very, very few steps that are allowed at potty time. Carry her out to potty with very, very few steps allowed, only enough for her to do potty, then pick her up and carry her back in. A harness and 6 foot leash is to control speed and keep footsteps to a minimum as you stand in one spot. A harness is also necessary to keep Amber from darting off should she see a squirrel or someone walk by. An ex-pen in the grass is an excellent alternative to minimizing footsteps with the physical and visual to indicate there will be no sniff festing going on! i.ibb.co/K7HNj10/slingwalk.jpgI can't impress upon you enough the importance of limiting movement of the spine. With each step Amber takes, her spine moves and the damaged disc could tear more and she'd be back to square one or much, much worse. Pain, loss of bladder/bowel control, paralysis are a real possibility. I'm glad she's doing so well. It would be tragic to hear that she has had a serious relapse due to too much movement.
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Lindsay & Amber
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Post by Lindsay & Amber on Sept 26, 2020 6:23:23 GMT -7
Thank you for the reminder. I have been for the most taking her out on harness or lead. I guess i just felt a bit under pressure to decide whether she was still lame to report back however there is no rush. Her neurologist has advised i may need to decide whether an MRI is needed in regards to the episodes of lameness. However she didnt look lame at her appointment which was a good sign. she has been lame since. She also just completly proved the point of a lead an harness with her attempted run and bark session. Thanfulkt lead and harness stopped her in her tracks.
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Marjorie
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Post by Marjorie on Sept 26, 2020 7:23:13 GMT -7
A limp indicates pain - dog not wanting to put weight on a leg due to pain - rather than loss of neuro function. Loss of neuro function is seen by toe dragging, knuckling (not being able to place foot correctly, stepping on top of foot), dragging of leg, inability to move leg. If limping is seen, pain meds need to be adjusted.
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Lindsay & Amber
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Post by Lindsay & Amber on Sept 26, 2020 11:21:44 GMT -7
Thank you that makes sense. Amber does put weight on her left leg but i am aware she has chronic pain from spinal cord compression. All her vets are happy the symptoms arent due to the leg itself. Her reflexes are all normal confirmed both by her neurologist and our normal vet who saw us over a number of weeks so may be that the symptoms im seeing are all chronic pain related. Ive seen her scrape [neuro] her left back paw today and struggle to place it [Neuro] getting up from a sit twice and get it on the third attempt. Her leg does occasionaly fold a little when she puts it down as well. If i try and massage that leg she arches her back and pants in discomfort. So ive been avoiding touching it since i noted this again but when resting she generally seems comfortable.
Her neurology report states lameness so that matches with it being chronic pain related. I feel like an MRI would be looking to see how L4 -L5 has healed plus would identify other areas of issue if there are any. But its a lot of money if it isnt going to change the treatment plan. Im happy to pay it though if it garuntees she is getting the best treatment for whatever is going on.
Thank you again. Making deciscions about her care is definitly challanging at times but it has really helped me to understand and be well informed.
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PaulaM
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Post by PaulaM on Sept 26, 2020 11:45:22 GMT -7
The idea with conservative treatment in Amber's case with accompanying neuro deficits is to ensure the disc has healed with 100% very STRICT rest inside of a recovery suite.
When the disc has healed with secure scar tissue at 8 weeks end (Nov 9). Then with the possibility she will have chronic pain as something to live with, she might stay on a combo of meds to give comfort. She will be able to go about life enjoying family activities, knowing the disc has healed but just left over chronic pain due to a piece of disc material where it should not be.
An MRI might or might not be something to pursue to see if another surgery could possibly clear out the disc material where it is not supposed to be if after graduation you want to purse that.
For now, stay singly mindedly on the very limited footsteps at potty time to allow the disc to heal. Limited movement is the single most important part of the care during conservative treatment.
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Lindsay & Amber
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FEMALE - spaniel/poodle . . 10/10Torn Knee ligament 4wks rest
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Post by Lindsay & Amber on Sept 26, 2020 16:29:58 GMT -7
Ok thank you I will do. Im going to pop a pen up for her in the garden again and we will go from there. Im carrying her backwards and forwards to the loo.
We have done this before if not as strict so we can manage again ill just have to keep reminding myself she cant potter about like she could during post op crate rest.
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Lindsay & Amber
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Post by Lindsay & Amber on Oct 1, 2020 2:20:15 GMT -7
just a little update. So i took amber out this morning im being strict at toilet time. brought her back in put her down and her back legs just wobbled out from underneath her like jelly, i think it was actually her right back leg that went. She corrected herself i was still holding her front end but her front legs do support her. Previously on the odd ocassion her legs would go but she would put herself in a sit. In between she is able to stand (in crate) can still wag her tail can go for a wee ( although she doesnt really hold her squat long enough).
She seems ok in herself. Was a bit of a shock as different to what we experienced last time round. More pain less neuro issues last time before her surgery.
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Marjorie
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Post by Marjorie on Oct 1, 2020 7:12:08 GMT -7
Was Amber able to take the few steps at potty time OK when you first took her out? Crate rest can cause some weakness due to the limitation of movement. Much as we experience when we sit in one position for too long and our legs are weak when we first get up. If you feel that her neuro function is worsening again, then you need to let the neuro know ASAP.
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Lindsay & Amber
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Post by Lindsay & Amber on Oct 1, 2020 11:40:37 GMT -7
She actually seemed a little better the first few couple of steps out of her crate at toilet time which is pretty typical for her. Im only allowing a couple of steps.
Almost looked like she didnt have control of her back legs for a brief moment. Hopefully that will be the last time i see it. She went out to the loo this afternoon and mananged ok. I think she was a little stronger than this morning. She could possibly be tense/ weak from crate rest also as really she would have been in physiotherapy and hydro at this point.
Ill keep a close eye on her and give neurolgy a call if i see further decline. Shes so up and down which i know can happen it just means im never sure when we have hit a point to take action.
Thanks again!
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Post by Romy & Frankie on Oct 1, 2020 13:49:12 GMT -7
After crate rest the legs may seem weaker simply because of lack of use. You are doing the right thing by watching her carefully and being prepared to call the neuro if you see progression.
I know you are allowing only short controlled walks. If the symptoms are simply muscle weakness, a few steps into her walk she may seem to get stronger as her muscles adjust to the movement.
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Lindsay & Amber
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Post by Lindsay & Amber on Oct 4, 2020 14:07:46 GMT -7
Ive been watching amber closley and thankfully her legs only collapsed on her like id previously mentioned one more time i havent seen anything new which concerns me since which is a big relief. Ive had a read back through the comments and now think i understand what im seeing a little better.
So this is what im seeing and how im understanding it.
Limping - may need pain meds adjusted. Shes Also carrying head low and tail low.
Scuffing toe nails on left back- neuro issue. She doesnt struggle ▲as much to place her left back paw.
General rear end Weakness - knee turns out and hips wing left. Weakness gets worse the longer she is out at toilet time. (Shes had an upset stomach as her cytopoint is due) [most commonly reported cytopoint side effect: gastrointestinal upset]
[Moderator's Note. Please do not edit 9.08 kg / 20.02 pounds Prednisolone as of 9/15: 5mgs 1x/day for 21 days Gabapentin 200mg 3x/day Amantadine 3.6 ml 2x/day cytopoint allergy shot ( lasts 4 to 8 weeks) expired 10/4 needs GI tract protector, Pepcid AC, on board w/Prednisolone ]
A lot of clicking and clunking noise. I assume this is related to the changes in the discs following surgery.
Lots of half finished movements and stretching her back (bow position).
Not sure why i didnt grasp that the limping was pain related from previous comments.putting that down to tiredness and worry hopefully ill be able to resolve that when i speak to neurology. I think she is on her max gabapentin and amantadine but there may be something else they can add.
Thanks again! Im hoping we are on the right track now as havent seen any further decline for a couple of days.
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PaulaM
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Post by PaulaM on Oct 4, 2020 15:10:19 GMT -7
Lindsay, being keen to observe details and take in the big picture can help with assessing if neuro or if pain. If in doubt report your observations to your vet. Leg weakness that comes and goes the same day, within an hour can be a sign of being tired. When rested, brain functions better to communicate with legs. Often dogs and people control their muscles best when not fatigued in the morning. Leg weakness that is related to neuro damage (new or existing nerve damage) does not come and go. It can take months rather than days/weeks to self repair nerves on a gradually improving basis. Leg weakness that is diminishing is best to alert your vet. As damage to the spinal cord increases, there is a predictable stepwise deterioration of functions. When nerve healing begins, often it follows the reverse order. 1. Pain caused by the tearing disc & inflammation in the spinal cord 2. Wobbly walking, legs cross 3. Nails/toes scuffing floor 4. Paws knuckle under 5. Weak/little leg movement, can't move up into a stand 6. Legs do not work at all (paralysis, dog is down) 7. Bladder control is lost. Leaks on you when lifted. Can no longer sniff and then pee on that old urine spot outdoors. 8. Tail wagging with joy is lost 9. Deep pain sensation, the last neuro function, a critical indicator for nerves to be able to self heal after surgery or with conservative treatment. If surgery is not an option (for whatever reason) then the best option is conservative treatment. Not wanting to bear any weight on a leg and limping or holding the leg up like flamingo bird is a sign of pain. During a disc episode may be caused to due to reduction or stop of the anti-inflammatory drug. Pain meds may need adjusting. I appears the 21-day course of Prednisone ended on 9/29 and she is on a lower dose now? ? ? What is her current med list? 9.08 kg / 20.02 poundsPrednisolone as of 9/15: 5mgs 1x/day for 21 days, tapering 9/29Gabapentin 200mg 3x/dayAmantadine 3.6 ml 2x/daycytopoint allergy shot: for allergy lasts for 4 to 8 weeks, most commonly reported side effect: gastrointestinal upsetneeds GI tract protector, Pepcid AC, on board w/pred
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Marjorie
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Post by Marjorie on Oct 5, 2020 5:00:59 GMT -7
When will you be speaking to the neurologist, Lindsay? If Amber is still limping, you need to speak to the vet today so the pain meds can be adjusted. Tramadol can still be added as a general pain med and Methocarbamol can be added for the pain of muscle spasms. When you speak to the neurologist, discuss with them the possibility that the limping may be due to nerve root signature pain. Something is irritating the nerve root as it exits the spinal cord to travel down the leg. Severe leg pain is one of the main symptoms. Here's some info to read as a background for discussion with your vet. dodgerslist.com/2020/08/20/nerve-root-signature-pain/Dr. Bagley. Lateral and Foraminal Disk Extrusion in Dogs [Root Signature Pain] www.scribd.com/doc/23748101/CANINE-Lateral-and-Foraminal-Disk-Extrusion-in-Dogs dodgerslist.com/2020/08/20/nerve-root-signature-pain/What signs are you seeing that Amber has an upset stomach? Vomiting? Diarrhea? GI distress is a red flag sign of a serious adverse side effect of the Prednisolone. It doesn't appear that Amber is on any type of stomach protection. Any time an anti-inflammatory such as Prednisolone is prescribed, stomach protection should also be prescribed. Please speak to the vet ASAP about adding Pepcid AC (Famotidine) AND Sucralfate today. The natural defenses of the stomach to shield against stomach acid is hindered when taking NSAIDs - Famotidine helps with that. Sucralfate works in a different way to bandaid the damaged mucus lining and also promotes a healing environment. Serious gastrointestinal toxicity such as bleeding, ulceration, and perforation, can occur at any time, with or without warning symptoms. If Amber is still showing signs of pain (limping), then it would not be time to taper off of the Prednisolone. Pain means there's still swelling pressing on the nerves of the spine and still a need for all meds at the original dosages. Anything less than the anti-inflammatory dosage of the Pred will not be effective on reducing swelling. It can take 7-30 days for the swelling to resolve. If there is still pain, please speak to the vet about extending the Pred for a little bit longer, maybe another week.
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Lindsay & Amber
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Post by Lindsay & Amber on Oct 6, 2020 6:17:32 GMT -7
Hi
Kicking myself for not thinking about nerve root signiature pain. If im honest that sounds exactly like what im seeing. I had read about it previously as she has displayed leg pain in the first month but her symptoms as of late seem exactly what im reading about nerve root signiature pain. Right down to seeming painfull down her left hind limb.
Her neurologist is aware she has pain and ive mentioned pain in that leg in the past but not lately. That combined with lameness sounds like nerve root signiature pain.
I hadnt read the post at the time i spoke to her neurologist so agreed to a prednisilone taper dose. Starting tomorrow.
I was advised to keep a close eye on her for increased signs of pain or being persistently lame more so than now to call back.
Amber has had diarreah over the past 2 days at the loo every 3 hrs during the night. Ive got an appointment with her vets for allergies. her primary vets believe the stomach problems are related to allergies as they tend to appear when her cytopoint is running out but will ask about tummy protection as it really wouldnt do any harm she has had GI issues in the past so probably allergy related.
Prednisilone taper doses are recommended as followed startting tomorrow.
5mg every other day for a week.
5mg evey 3rd day for a week
Stopping the following week.
She is actually seeming more comfortable this afternoon but i also comtemplated whether i was seeing muscle spasms in her lower back last night seems to affect her tail also but its hard to see under her thick coat of fur.
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Mary & Mila
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Post by Mary & Mila on Oct 6, 2020 6:54:47 GMT -7
H Lindsay,
Just reading about Amber's current issues, I would definitely advise that you follow Marjories advice and get a stomach protector on board.
We can buy Pepcid AC over the counter here in Ireland, not sure about the UK, but something is telling me ou guys need a pharmacy script, either way please call the vet today, ask is there any reason she shouldn't have it and ask for Sucralfate as well.
Amber really needs tummy protection before starting the Prednisolone tomorrow.
Kind regards
Mary.
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Lindsay & Amber
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Post by Lindsay & Amber on Oct 6, 2020 9:51:39 GMT -7
Thank you i will do. I dont think we can get it over the counter here ive had a look we can get omeprazole but looks like the side effects can be GI upset in dogs. I know her vets in the past havent been keen on providing anything preventative for her stomach as they believe its related to allergies. They tend to only want to treat it if it goes on a while.
I could have raised it with her neurologist when.we discussed meds but i was thinking allergies were the cause.
Id prefer to have something to protect her stomach if i can get it and ill ask about the other meds to thank you for pointing it out i didnt realise they were different at first.
Her current meds are Pred. 5mg x1 every other day Gabapentin 200mg x3 daily every 8 hrs Amantadine hydrochloride 3.6ml x2 daily every 12hrs
[Moderator's Note. Please do not edit 9.08 kg / 20.02 pounds Prednisolone as of 9/15: 5mgs 1x/day for 21 days; final taper dose 10/19 Gabapentin 200mg 3x/day Amantadine 3.6 ml 2x/day Pepcid AC (famotidine) is Rx in the UK ]
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Lindsay & Amber
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Post by Lindsay & Amber on Oct 6, 2020 11:57:04 GMT -7
Just a little extra detail ambers cytopoint has been given once a month on 5th of the month. I generally see GI issues starting 10 days to a week before [cytopoint] it runs out. Shes having her cytopoint on 13th this month unless she is able to scratch her ears then she will be in asap.
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Post by Romy & Frankie on Oct 6, 2020 13:08:27 GMT -7
Even if the stomach upset is allergy related, and not related to the pred, a stomach protector can still be prescribed. Pepcid AC is generally considered a safe medication and will help control the excess acid caused by the anti-inflammatory. Sucralfate will help heal any damaged areas of the stomach
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Lindsay & Amber
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Post by Lindsay & Amber on Oct 6, 2020 16:44:46 GMT -7
Ill definitly ask my vets again and explain my reasoning.
I also think im going to call neurology and see if i can delay her prednisilone taper doses a week. She is still limping/lame and i also suspect that her allergies will flare up as her she needs her cytopoint injection. May not be good idea to be dealing with allergies and pain from inflamation if that has not resolved. It will be trickier for me to tell what im seeing to.
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