Lark
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Post by Lark on Aug 8, 2013 12:44:05 GMT -7
--What is your dog's name? Charlie
--What breed is your dog and did you specifically get a diagnosis of IVDD? Dachshund No, just told having back pain
-- What was the date you saw the vet and started 100% STRICT crate rest 24/7? Saw vet on 7/31/13 & started strict crate rest that day
-- Is there still currently pain - shivering, trembling, yelping when picked up or moved, reluctant/slow to move head or body, tight hard tummy? He does not seem to be in pain, just moves a little slower than normal
-- What are the exact names of meds currently given, their doses in mgs and frequencies?
Prednisone, 5mg to times daily for 7 days then 1 daily for 7 days, then 1 every other day for 7 days
10mg Pepcid 30 minutes prior
-- Currently can your dog wobbly walk? move the legs at all? or wag the tail when you do some happy talk? He walks normal, just slower, moves legs fine, wags tail
-- Do you find wet bedding or leaks on you when lifted up? No bed wetting or leaking, has complete control of bladder
-- Eating and drinking OK? Eating and drinking normal
-- Poops OK - normal color no dark or bright red blood? Poop normal
Charlie started walking more slowly and sitting a lot the night before going to the vet. Also had trouble going up doggie stairs to the bed. Took him to regular vet first thing next morning. They did exam and said he was having back pain. They only recommended 2 weeks crate rest, allow to walk to potty (but I keep him on harness and leash) and the Prednisone as described above. He seemed better within a day or 2 and is not happy about being in the crate, but I am being strict. I know you recommend 8 weeks crate rest, but I just wondered if that is necessary with such a mild case. If I need to do it to prevent any further issues, I will. Thanks in advance for any advice.
His Mom, Lark
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Post by mdavis410 on Aug 8, 2013 12:58:39 GMT -7
Lark,
This is how it started out for my daschund about a month ago. He seemed to be getting better and so I wasn't as strict with the crate. Over the last couple of days he has gotten worse. I wish I would have kept him in a crate the past 4 weeks with only potty breaks. My advise from a fellow daschund mom would be no harm in extra rest!
All the best!
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Post by ChiliandJimmy on Aug 8, 2013 14:50:28 GMT -7
Has Charlie been tested for Lyme disease? My dachshund Chili showed similar symptoms to Chalie's and it turned out he had Lyme Disease.
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Marjorie
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Post by Marjorie on Aug 8, 2013 18:04:44 GMT -7
Welcome to Dodgerslist, Lark. Good job in getting Charlie into the crate! That's what's needed - 100% strict crate rest for a full 8 weeks. Unfortunately, the time can't be shortened for a milder case. Dodgerslist takes the conservative view that it takes a full 8 weeks for the disc to heal once it's torn. The moderators here will tell you how too often they hear of a dog stopping crate rest before the 8 weeks is up and having a re-injury. Your vet's recommendation of two weeks is way short of the mark. He's also incorrect in telling you to walk him out to potty. Charlie should be carried out to potty, kept on a short leash and allowed to take only a few steps to do his business and carried back to his crate. No laps, no couch, no sleeping in bed with you, no meandering, scooting or dragging around during potty times. No baths, no chiro (aka VOM). It's good that you caught this early but you don't want his condition to worsen. Reluctance to move can be a sign of pain. Did the vet discuss pain medication with you? The vet said Charlie was having back pain when he examined him. He should have prescribed pain medication. Healing can't start until pain is under control. Please contact your vet and discuss Charlie's pain and the need for pain medication. Dogs can benefit greatly with acupuncture or laser light therapy. These therapies can be be started right away to help relieve pain and to also to kick start energy production in nerve cells to sprout. So if this therapy is in your budget, seek out a holistic vet. ahvma.org/Widgets/FindVet.html Owners can be instrumental in helping their dogs recover. It takes being a reader as not all vets know this disease…but you certainly can know just one disease. So that you can have an informed discussion with the ortho, please read up on the two pertinent pages: www.dodgerslist.com/literature.htmwww.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingsurgery.htmHang in there. With conservative crate rest care, Charlie has every chance of making a full recovery. Please keep us updated. We love details! All the best to you both. |
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PaulaM
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Post by PaulaM on Aug 8, 2013 19:01:20 GMT -7
Lark, Charlie is a good candidate to recover with conservative treatment. The crate rest is all about letting the disc heal. We know a broken arm needs a cast for 6 weeks. Bones have a very good flow of healing blood in them. Discs are cartiliage and are pretty avascular…no to little blood to help with healing and forming good secure scar tissue. So as Marjorie pointed out give Charlie's disc an opportunity to heal with the limited movement a recovery suite provides and for the full 8 weeks. A very good and quick overviewof all the phases of healing, a video and meds starts here: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingpage.htmWith moving gingerly, reluctant to move and slow moving…Charlie IS in pain. Your vet gave no pain meds. During the time on the anti-inflammatory the pain meds do need to be prescribed and likley adjusted so that there is no pain surfacing dose to dose of pain relief medications. Pain deters healing. Often it takes being at the anti-inflamamtory dose of prednisone (5mg 2x/day) for 1-2 weeks or even for some dogs more like a month before all the swelling is gone. On the taper the dose is lowered to less than the anti-flammatory dose and that is the time to assess just how well reduction of swelling is going by observing for pain. To have a clear picture on a taper, pain meds are also stopped or back off too. Right now please advocate by telling your vet your observations of not moving normally, but slowing so Charlie can get some pain relief. Rule of thumb is: pain = swelling = more time on Pred needed. If there is no pain on the taper then it goes to completion. Then no meds at all are needed any longer. At potty time do carry him to and from the potty place. Use a leash and harness to limit his footsteps to the very minimal to get the job done…no sniff fests by you standing in one spot. The 6 foot leash will limit his walking. If he were a bit wobbly or unstable then you would also use a sling as back up to keep the spine aligned. |
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Post by Yvonne & Billy on Aug 8, 2013 19:14:52 GMT -7
Good for you, Lark! Charlie is lucky that you started on his crate rest ASAP. Knowing what I know now, I kick myself for not crating my baby Billy 2 days prior to when things got bad. Charlie is clearly in good hands. =)
Best of luck to you! I know Charlie will get better with STRICT crate rest. My baby boy did!
Hugs,
Yvonne
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Lark
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Post by Lark on Aug 9, 2013 11:40:46 GMT -7
Thank you everyone for all the advice and support. I will continue Charlie's crate rest for 8 weeks and start carrying him out to potty. I will also contact his vet about pain medication like Rimadyl. However, I read that you shouldn't give Prednisone & Rimadyl at the same time, is that true? I thought those 2 drugs were the standard. Please let me know. Thanks again.
Lark & Charlie
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Sabrina
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My Charley-dog, a Dodger'sList grad enjoying life!
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Post by Sabrina on Aug 9, 2013 12:09:46 GMT -7
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Lark
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Post by Lark on Aug 9, 2013 12:23:13 GMT -7
Thanks Sabrina. I have Tramadol, so I will start that. Can it be given at the same time as Prednisone? In case I didn't mention it, I am totally new to IVDD. I have 3 doxies (including Charlie) and am lucky that I never had to deal with this before. I am also a volunteer with Florida Dachshund Rescue and have heard many stories (good & bad) about "downed dachshunds", etc. So, I want to make sure I do it right, for my Charlie. Another question, although Charlie is doing pretty well in his crate, he does roll around on his back and most of the time sleeps upside down and I was wondering if I should be concerned about that. He has always loved to do what I call "roly poly" on the carpet, so now he does it in his crate. Not sure I can stop that, but wanted to check.
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PaulaM
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Post by PaulaM on Aug 9, 2013 13:03:07 GMT -7
Sabrina gave you good information on the two classes of anti-inflammatories -- steroids and NSAIDs (non-steroid anti-inflammatory drug) Was the tramadol prescribed for Charlie? For this disc episode? If not keep the vet in the loop about reluctance to move and wanting to use Tramadol. What is the dose in mg and how often can you give it> Keeping all IVDD meds straight at the beginning can seem overwhelming. Here is a card you can carry with you as reference download and print out: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/MedCard.pdf The 3 pain meds most often prescribed are not in the class of anti-inflammatories. Therefore they can be used with either steroids or NSAIDs. And they can be used in combination with each other. As soon as you are able do start your readings Here is the one on Pain control www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingpain.htm Click the "back to the index" and you will have all of our critical info to read about.  If he can roll it is because he is not in pain. See if you can discourage it by redirecting his interest, but really there is not a way to totally stop it |
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Lark
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Post by Lark on Aug 9, 2013 13:27:10 GMT -7
Paula: Thanks for the information. No, the Tramadol was not prescribed for Charlie, it was for a foster who weighs the same. It prescribed 1/4 tablet of a 50 MG tablet, twice daily for pain. I have a call into Charlie's vet and will wait to give it until she calls back. Can the Pred & Tramadol be given at the same time? I will ask his vet, but prefer to hear what you guys say, since she only wanted 2 weeks of crate rest and didn't suggest Pepcid with the Pred., like this group did. Good to know if he can roll around he is not in pain. That makes me feel better and I will try to distract him. But going to keep going with the 8 weeks of crate rest and the other suggestions. Thanks!
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PaulaM
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Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,935
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Post by PaulaM on Aug 9, 2013 13:45:56 GMT -7
Prednisone and Tramadol can be given together. The tramadol would be used because you are still seeing signs of pain, reluctance to move, slow to move, not his normal perky self, shivering, trembling, yelps. Rolling is a good sign that at that moment he was not in pain. Let us know if there are still signs of pain any times during the day or night that will need the help of tramadol.
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Lark
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Post by Lark on Aug 9, 2013 14:50:40 GMT -7
Although Charlie is rolling around in his crate and sleeping upside down, he does still move slower than normal and will sit as soon as he is done going to the potty. That is not normal for him. So, I think he needs to be on the Tramadol, as suggested, to help the healing begin. One more question. When the 8 weeks of crate rest is up, do I just let him out and resume his normal activity or do I let him out a little at a time? He is very independent and loves to sit on the ramp I have that leads to the backyard or be outside chasing lizards (I live in Florida  ). Just want to make sure I get the whole protocol. Thanks again. |
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Marjorie
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Post by Marjorie on Aug 9, 2013 16:19:14 GMT -7
After the full 8 weeks of crate rest is over, Lark, Charlie's muscles and stamina need to be slowly built up. Here are Dodgerslist's suggestions for gradually easing dogs back into their normal routine after crate rest: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/AfterCrateRest.htmMy Jeremy comes off of crate rest in 10 days so I've been reading up on this, too, getting ready. You also need to make your house back friendly for when Charlie gets out of the crate in 7 weeks. No more stairs or jumping off beds or couches. Here's Dodgerslist's tips on that: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/AfterCrateRest.htmGood that you already have a ramp to the backyard! And yes, chasing lizards is allowed.  But of course, all of that is a long way off. Please keep us posted on how Charlie does with the crate rest. |
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Lark
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Post by Lark on Aug 11, 2013 18:01:27 GMT -7
I am taking Charlie back to the vet tomorrow, but wanted any opinions. Like I had mentioned, Charlie still seemed to be having slowness of movement and would sit in the yard as soon as he is done doing his business, which is not normal for him, which I believe indicated pain. I have continued the strict crate rest as suggested, but he was not on any medication for pain. After speaking to his vet Friday, I started him on 1/4 of a 50mg Tramadol 2 times a day (first Friday night). Saturday morning he got another Tramadol with breakfast, but he threw up breakfast and lunch, about 2 hours after eating each of them. My dogs get 3 home-cooked meals a day. I was concerned he was having a reaction to the Tramadol, so I stopped it and gave him a lighter dinner (his vet was already closed). He kept dinner down, so I didn't give him Tramadol today and gave him a lighter breakfast, which he kept down. I went back to his normal meal for lunch and he kept that down too. Then he ate dinner & threw it up almost 2 hours later. He is still on the 5 mg Prednisone twice daily & I am giving him 5 mg of Pepcid 30 minutes prior, so I don't know why he is vomiting. Any ideas? Could this extended crate rest, which he is not used to (never crated before) and is not happy about, cause the vomiting? I am taking him back to his vet tomorrow, but would love any advice. Thanks.
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Sabrina
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Post by Sabrina on Aug 11, 2013 18:52:30 GMT -7
Hi Lark! Is the only thing that changed before the vomiting episodes the addition of the Tramadol? Did Charlie seem more anxious/upset about being in his recovery suite? If he's vomiting 2hrs after meals, is it mostly bile? Here - www.dodgerslist.com/literature/drugs.htm#paindrugs - it says that "Tramadol does not cause gastric bleeding, but a few dogs have experienced nausea". But as he hadn't had any Tramadol today I wouldn't expect that it would be the cause of his vomiting after dinner? Personally, I would ask your vet about Sucralfate - it acts as a "bandaid" for the upper GI tract: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/drugs.htm#intestinaldrugs . My Charley is on this before his pred doses because last summer he had a bout of undiagnosed vomiting and we didn't want to take any chances with causing another problem for him. (The sucralfate needs to be given on an empty stomach at least an hour before the pred - and 30min before the pepcid, according to the page I linked) )))Hugs!((( -Sabrina |
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Lark
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Post by Lark on Aug 12, 2013 11:37:47 GMT -7
I took Charlie to the vet this morning and he has mild pancreatitis. My usual vet was not there, so I saw a different one. They examined him and did a blood test that showed he has pancreatitis. The vet said it could have been brought on by the Prednisone. Luckily it is very mild, just the vomiting, no diarrhea or other symptoms. He gave him a shot of Cerenia and sent him home and said no food, only water, for 24 hours. As long as he does not continue to vomit, he does not have to be hospitalized. No Prednisone today. Tomorrow morning a light meal, see if he keeps it down. Continue Pred with Pepcid tomorrow, once daily for 5 days, then 1 a day every other day for 5 days. He examined Charlie's back and he showed no current signs of pain (yay!). I told him about the extended crate rest of 8 weeks and he said that was good and certainly can't hurt. I don't know if you guys agree about Predinisone causing pancreatitis, but there was nothing else that Charlie had out of his ordinary meals. I feed home-cooked, low-fat meals and he got nothing else. So that is where we are now. Any thoughts or comments?
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PaulaM
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Post by PaulaM on Aug 12, 2013 11:47:00 GMT -7
Pancreatitis can be a side effect of taking pred. We've got our fingers crossed on the pred taper that you will not see any signs of pain. Keep us posted, please.
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Lark
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Post by Lark on Sept 20, 2013 12:25:05 GMT -7
I just wanted to let everyone know that Charlie is 5 days away from the end of his 8 week strict crate rest and he is doing great. He does not seem to be having any back pain & loves to sleep upside down in his bed in his crate. That is what he used to do, but stopped when he was having the back issue. This week I have been allowing him to walk outside (not carrying him) on the leash to potty and he seems fine. I have replaced all my doggie steps to the couch & bed with ramps and I already had a ramp going outside to the backyard. I plan to gradually allow him time out of the crate slowly, as suggested. Paws crossed for no more back problems. Thanks for all your information & support! I recommend your site all the time!!! |
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Sabrina
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Post by Sabrina on Sept 20, 2013 12:56:17 GMT -7
Hi Lark! Wonderful news about Charlie's progress! And well done for making your home back-friendly! Do hang in there these last 5 days with the 100% Strict crate rest. Damaged discs "take about 8 weeks to heal and form secure scar tissue during conservative treatment." www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingdisc.htm So even though you are sooo close, it's important to keep up with the carrying him out to potty and limiting his steps to give Charlie these last 5 days so that scar tissue has its full 8 weeks to develop. My Charley just recently graduated, and I know it's hard the last few days - hang in there! You've probably already seen this page, but it has a great "general schedule" for easing back into activity once Charlie graduates: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/AfterCrateRest.htmAgain, I'm so happy to hear of Charlie's progress! ))Hugs!(( - Sabrina |
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PaulaM
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Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
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Post by PaulaM on Sept 20, 2013 13:21:33 GMT -7
I agree with Sabrina. It takes a minimum of 8 weeks before secure enough scar tissue has formed. After graduation day, then you will be starting a slow and gradual reintroduction to physical activity over the course of a couple of weeks. Hang in there til graduation day so Charlie does not miss out on any opportunity for that disc to heal. Get your camera out, we would LOVE to see a graduation day photo. Here is where to upload it: dodgerslist.boards.net/thread/260/upload-photo-dog |
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StevieLuv
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Post by StevieLuv on Sept 20, 2013 16:22:26 GMT -7
Third voice piping in here! Please wait the full 8 weeks, it would be such a shame if he ri-injured himself when you are almost done!! Loooking forward to cheering for you on your Graduation Day!!! |
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). Just want to make sure I get the whole protocol. Thanks again. 
