Diane's Prince 6/1 xrayRLPSE Conservative - UK

Welcome to Dodgerslist, Tina. So glad you’ve joined us all. We’ve got valuable information we’ve gleaned from the vets Dodgerslist consults with and our own experiences with IVDD since 2002 to share with you.

**Disc disease is not a death sentence! ** Struggling with quality of life questions? Re-think things: www.dodgerslist.com/index/SDUNCANquality.htm

You have a pain emergency that must be dealt with ASAP this morning. Prince is on no pain meds, only an anti-inflammatory. IVDD is very painful and pain meds must be prescribed to get pain completely under control. Pain hinders healing and Prince must be allowed to rest without pain in order to heal. Please speak to the vet ASAP today about adding pain meds - Tramadol as a general pain med, Gabapentin for nerve pain and Methocarbamol for the pain of muscle spasms. Many times all three pain meds are needed to get the pain of IVDD under control. I normally would tell you to take Prince to an ER vet this morning so he doesn't have to remain in pain all day today but there's the fear that he will injure himself more. Do all that you can to get his pain under control ASAP.

It is vitally important that a recovery suite be set up for Prince ASAP. Until the dog pen arrives, cordon off a section of a room to confine Prince's movements. Prince's recovery area should be only large enough for him to stand up, turn around and lie down comfortably with his legs extended. Any extra room needs to be filled in with rolled up towels/blankets. Too much movement of the spine, as you have seen, can tear or rupture a damaged disc more, causing more pain and nerve damage.

Vets who understand the importance of strict crate rest will take status updates by phone rather than bring in a pet to the office. Any changes to meds can be made by phone and do not necessitate a vet visit. X-rays should only be taken if the vet suspects another problem other than IVDD. IVDD is usually diagnosed based on breed and symptoms.

It will help us work together with you and avoid offering ideas that could cause harm or lead the discussion in the wrong direction delaying help for your dog — please share a bit more detail with us:

❖1 MEDS

   How much does your dog weigh?
…A Please list the exact names of meds currently given, their doses in mgs and times per day given.
…B If on a steroid….what was the start date & dose? Date of steroid taper?
…C PEPCID AC: Anytime a dog is taking an anti-inflammatory, stomach protection must be added. Ask if your dog has any health issues to prevent use of Pepcid AC (famotidine)? (doesn’t need it, we wait til there is problem…are NOT answers to your question!) If you get a “no health” issues answer, then go to the grocery store to purchase over the counter Pepcid AC containing one single active ingredient (famotidine). i.ibb.co/DCN9611/91x-Aj-s00z-L-SY355.jpg
Doxie weight dogs: 5mg Pepcid AC (famotidine) every 12 hours. NOTE: Pepcid AC (famotidine) for dogs is 0.44mg per pound, 30 mins before the anti-inflammatory and thereafter every 12 hours for as long as your dog is on the anti-inflammatory. www.1800petmeds.com/Famotidine-prod11171.html

❖2 GI Tract problems? —Eating and drinking OK? No nausea/not eating, no vomit? —Poops OK? Normal firmness & color -no dark black or bright red blood indicating bleeding ulcers? No diarrhea?

❖3 The hallmark component of conservative treatment is the very STRICT crate rest part (no PT, little movement). With little blood supply discs are much slower to form good scar tissue than it takes a blood rich broken bone to heal. Those weeks of a cast for a broken arm to heal is similar to the recovery suite being a kind of cast for the disc. 100% STRICT crate rest 24/7 for 8 weeks provides limited movement to allow good strong scar tissue to form.
Super tried and true tips for setting up the recovery suite, the mattress and more! —> www.dodgerslist.com/literature/CrateRRP.htm

STRICT means: ◼︎no laps ◼︎no couches ◼︎no baths ◼︎no sleeping with you ◼︎no chiro therapy whys: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/chiropractic.htm ◼︎no dragging or meandering at potty times. ◼︎no PT for conservative dogs during 8 weeks to heal disc ◼︎At home laser or acupuncture for severe neuro damage is best. Transports are always a risk to the disc of too much movement. Vet visits must be weighed risk vs. benefit for dogs with little to mild neuro diminishment.

❖4 Carry to and from the recovery suite to the potty place and then allow a very few limited footsteps. Using a sling (long winter scarf, ace bandage, belt) will save your back and help to keep a wobbly dog’s back aligned and butt from tipping over. A harness and 6 foot leash is to control speed and keep footsteps to a minimum as you stand in one spot. An ex-pen in the grass is an excellent alternative to minimizing footsteps with the physical and visual to indicate there will be no sniff festing going on! i.ibb.co/K7HNj10/slingwalk.jpg

❖5 Currently can your move the legs at all? or wag the tail when you specifically do some happy talk?

Knowledge is the power to fight the IVDD enemy and win!! The very best thing you can do for YOU, the caregiver, and for your dog is to get up to speed on IVDD soonest possible. Begin absorbing the must-have overall sense of meds, care and how the treatment works. Your dog will be depending on your ability to learn - excellent video series here: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/theater.htm
 PRINT OUT this link and tape to your fridge: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingpage.htm
 use the printout as your roadmap to avoid dangerous detours in your dog’s care
 make notes/highlight to keep yourself on track
 follow all the links in the next days to become the IVDD savvy pet parent your dog needs. Use the “search box” to easily locate topics over at our Main www.Dodgerslist.com website: www.dodgerslist.com/index/searchBOX.jpg

Please let us know what the vet says after speaking to them. Healing prayers for Prince.

Dianne, would you clarify the Prednidale for us. The time reported is not meshing. Best to always use a date so there is no confusion.



-- What date was prednidale first dosed at 2.5mgs 2x/day?  Was it on the May 15th vet visit?
-- For how many days was this 2.5mgs 2x/day prescribe for before going to a taper?
-- What date did the extended 14 days of 2.5mgs 2x/day happen on?

STOMACH PROTECTION 
What is the stumbling block to getting an acid suppressor on board, such as the prescription item Pepcid AC® (famotidine)?
    There are multiple factors involved in causing extra stomach acids that will typically happen during a disc episode.
     Stress can increase stomach acids. Dogs are creatures of routine. Change of needing to be in a recovery suite, suffering with pain until pain meds can be Rx’d are stressful to a dog.
    The use of any anti-inflammatory drug (steroid) or a non-steroidal (NSAID) can increase stomach acids.
    Spinal cord damage can inhibit the autonomic function that normally protects the stomach lining.

CLEARLY this vet is not IVDD knowledgable.  Xrays are not used to confirm a disc episode is going on. Xrays are used if the vet is suspicious there was something else that mimics a disc epsode. Such as a dog fell and fractured  vertebrae, a tumor, a bone infection.  If there was no suspicion of these other diseases, then no need for doing an X-ray to rule them out.

If the vet felt there was a disc episode where a nerve was entrapped, then the correct thing is to Rx an anti inflammatory such as the steroid, Prednidale.  Since Prednidale can take 7-30 days to get rid of painfully inflamed tissue, pain meds are a must.

There is no need to risk further damage to the disc with any more vehicle transports when there is not a real  benefit but only a risk to further damage the disc.. Vets who know IVDD know this.  Call on the phone and describe what you observe. Over the phone you vet can learn about Prince's pain. He can either have you alone come pick up the pain medication pills or call in a prescription to your local chemist and you go there to pick up the pills.

EXPECTATIONs

—SURGERY. A dog who can still walk is not yet a candidate for a surgery. You can learn more of the details here at this page:  www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingsurgery.htm

— PAIN MEDS. Have no patience at all with pain. Expect PAIN control happens in approximately an hour when a prescription is on board and  is customized to your dog for the dose, the frequency and combination of pain meds.
     Make sure the medications are fully controlling pain from dose to dose with no break-through in pain nearing the next dose. Continued feedback to your vet is vitally important until the pain medications have been properly adjusted for your dog.
     A 2-3 drug combo of pain meds is often necessary to address each source of pain during a disc episode and prescribed usually to be dosed promptly every 8 hours.

1. Gabapentin address nerve pain www.marvistavet.com/gabapentin.pml
2. Tramadol, a synthetic opiate, as the general analgesic  www.marvistavet.com/tramadol.pml
3. Methocarbamol to deal with the very common pain of muscle contractions  www.marvistavet.com/methocarbamol.pml


PICTURE OF YOUR DOG
Go to PROFILE to change from the default avatar to jpg of Prince.

I am glad that the vet prescribed gabapentin for Prince. I hope this will keep Prince pain free. If it does not, please call the vet, let him know you are seeing signs of pain and ask for the pain meds to be adjusted. It sometimes takes a combination of the three meds that Paula mentioned given three times daily to get pain under control

Thanks for your advice, the ✖️Gabapentin did not seem to work. Vet told us to stop them and prescribed ✙Tralieve [tramadol] Instead.

[Moderator's note: please do not edit
6kg /13.23 lbs
Prednidale as of 5/15: 2.5mg 2x/day for ? days  negated due to relapse
                        as of 6/1 disc relapse: 2.5mgs 2x/day  for ? days, then taper test for _pain/ _neuro
✙Tralieve® (tramadol) 10mgs 2x/day
No stomach protection on board!] 

I’m not too happy with the vet, he’s not returned my last 2 calls he’s got receptionist to call me with his reply!

I don’t think he liked it when I told him I had been on here and asked
why we had no pain relief when I had told him Prince was in pain at time’s, he said the steroid was a pain killer too, he did come highly recommend by the breeder.

My little Prince was walking when I took him to the vet on [June 1] 1/6 and vet said he could see improvement, he asked to X-ray him, snd then told us he was so upset in the vets (we were not allowed in due to COVID) That he was throwing himself around to get free, vet said he may have done more damage to himself, today is 12/6 [June 6] he has not walked in his back legs Since he saw the vet.

We are very concerned, due to speak to vet today [June 12] and he said if Prince is no better he will refer him.

The  ✙ Tralieve are prescribed 10mg every 12 hours and we started them yesterday morning, I do believe they are working already, Prince has slept well.
Thanks very much
Diane

I don’t know if the vets are different in US
Prince has and is still on the prednidale 5mg
Started on 15/5 [prednidale as of May 15] 2.5 mg 2x a day every 12 hrs, he is still
on the same dose today nothing changed with the steroids...

[Moderator's note: please do not edit
6kg /13.23 lbs
Prednidale as of 5/15: 2.5mg 2x/day for ? days negated due to relapse
                     as of 6/1 disc relapse: 2.5mgs 2x/day for 12+ TBA days, then taper test for _pain/ _neuro
Xray Je 1- excessive movement caused loss of limb function and relapse to disc
Tralieve® (tramadol) 10mgs 2x/day
No stomach protection on board!]

Gabapentin 100mg was prescribed on 8/6 as I asked after for pain relief after your post, ( I had already asked he said the steroid was for pain too!
These did not seem to help I told the vet, I was told to stop using them
and to start on Tralieve 20 mg on 11/6 which he is currently taking 2 x a day every 12 hrs dose.
It states to stop Gabapentin before taking Tralieve.

I have been giving him
Natural yogurt, he is going to the pet hospital tomorrow [Sunday June 13] to see specialist as I don’t feel the vet is doing enough
He has been referred to see specialist tomorrow/neurologist, probably have MRI tomorrow and if needed surgery it will be done tomorrow
thanks so much for caring and your helpful advice.
Diane & Princey xx

Thanks for your reply..
He seems to be in a little pain today, it’s usually when he wants to do a number 2 that this happens, he has done a no 2 at 8am this morning it’s 1.30pm now, he hadn’t been again as yet, are there any complications with his waterworks or bowels that could arise? Anything o need to be looking for ?
He’s still eating and drinking fine
Many many thanks

Diane & Princey
Xxx

It is with a broken heart I write these words to inform you my beloved boy Prince was put to sleep yesterday Saturday. As you know he was due to go to see Neurologist today, Sunday, he seemed in more pain yesterday we took him over for emergency appointment. The specialist told us it was bad news as soon as he saw Princes back legs, he then took him in for tests, had no sensation feelings in them, He said he was paralysed from the waist down. The blood supply had been cut off, also the pain was due to him not emptying his bladder. That’s why I took him as I noticed he hasn’t passed much water yesterday morning. I asked if he could do anything to save him. The neurologist said he had performed over 1500 of these surgeries and only one that was in the same condition, he did it because the owner was desperate but he said he knew it would not work and cried before he started operating. he told the owners that in his opinion there was no hope for the dog and best thing to do was to put him to sleep, he said we could put Prince through the operation but he was confident it would not work and that we would have to manually empty Princes bladder, he said most humane thing was to put our beloved boy to sleep, so that’s what we did
We are devastated and heartbroken we did not expect that to happen yesterday, we expected him to have an operation. If our vet had referred us sooner or could have been a different outcome, we feel very let down by our vet
Thank you all xxxx

Thank you so much and for all your help, I never posted a picture as I couldn’t get it to load
Were heartbroken xx

Diane, my heart breaks so deeply to hear about this tragedy on so many counts. How you must be suffering also breaks my heart.

I would have hoped even if your Prince never regained deep pain sensation, he would have gone on to live many happy years ahead with the aid of a wheelchair and a bit of assist in the bathroom department from you. Expressing the bladder is not a bad thing, it is not inhumane, it is just a new normal. When first getting a disc episode diagnosis, we owners are pretty much having to believe we are  good hands of a knowledgeable vet as we are so overwhelmed.

If you ever consider another breed that might be prone to disc problems (dachshund, Pekingese, shih tzu, toy or miniature poodle, cocker spaniel, basset hound, Chihuahua, and beagle) you will be standing from a position of education to identify when wrong and harmful advise is given.

When the time is right for you, maybe give Prince a legacy to be over your shoulder in spirit as you two help other pet parents learn.

Ask Linda to send you a n/c packet: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/litorder.htm

Diane, my sincere condolences on this most tragic of events.

Thank you all for your kind words, In less than 36 hours Prince was put to sleep, cremated and returned to us in a casket.. Very quick
we were shocked, he had a private cremation so we know it’s only his ashes.

The Specialist said he had to be put to sleep as it was cruel as his bladder and bowels wouldn’t work properly, due to being paralysed,
we did what was best for Our Little Prince, we are the ones who are suffering, thank god he is not, he comes first, not us ❤️

Diane