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Post by Kelly & Breckin on Jun 5, 2020 18:34:52 GMT -7
Hello there - My name is Kelly and my six year old double dapple dachshund, Breckin, had surgery on May 16. He had a pediculectomy at T13/L1 and L3/L4 left side. The surgeon said that the spinal cord under the herniated discs looked pink and healthy. He remained in the hospital from 5/16 - 5/19 and has been on restricted activity since returning home. Currently not on any meds, having finished the post surgery ones. We are doing acupuncture twice a week, started at 10 days post surgery.
At this point, he has got his dachshund attitude and sassiness back, but still unable to urinate on his own or use his back legs at all. Our vet says he is responding to nerve stimulation in his back legs and they believe there is a very good chance he will walk again. If not, I know he will rock "weiner wheels" like a star, but I am sad for him and not sure what else to do for him. I guess I am just hoping that someone else has had a long recovery that has ended positively. Any input would be appreciated.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,493
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Post by PaulaM on Jun 5, 2020 19:18:19 GMT -7
Kelly, welcome the Forum, we are glad you've joined us. Wonderful to hear Breckin is BACK with his personality. Each dog is different in how long it it may take to heal nerves. All any one can tell you is the typical order these neuro functions will return in. It is really still quite early in the nerve healing department. Often for this slowest part of the body to heal, we ought to think in terms of months rather than days/weeks. Nerves heal typically in the reverse order of the damage to the spinal cord: 1. Deep Pain Sensation (Only correctly identified by a specialist.) 2. Tail wagging with joy at seeing you or getting a treat or meal. 3. Bladder and bowel control verified with the "sniff and pee" test. 4. Leg Movement, and then ability to move up into a stand position, and then wobbly walking. 5. Being able to walk with more steadiness and properly place the feet. 6. Ability to walk unassisted and perhaps even run. More info: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingnerves.htmKelly, have you specifically done some happy talk to him to find out if he can do a happy tail wag? As for deep pain sensation, it is a tricky thing for a family veterinary to identity. Most get it wrong. But anyone can correctly identify the happy tail wag when seeing a treat or hearing happy talk from you. How are you doing with expressing? Does he stay dry session to session? If you need to read some tips and re-review expressing technque, this link is always handy. Note you can also express for poop! www.dodgerslist.com/literature/Expressing.htmFor how many weeks did the surgeon want for strict rest except when out of the recovery suite and supervised during PT time? Are you doing any of the exercises at home from the video below? Appropriate physical therapy can help maintain the muscles with lost nerve connection. Therapy keeps muscles in optimal condition while in wait to receive regenerating axon terminals. Post-op PT for the paralyzed IVDD dog: Look forward to learning more about Brecken from your answers so we can come up with ideas to support you.
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Post by Kelly & Breckin on Jun 5, 2020 19:33:50 GMT -7
Thanks for your reply! There is no happy tail wagging yet, although he tries like heck to jump when I get home. Poor guy keeps forgetting his legs don't work. I think I am doing pretty good with the bladder expression, although it was definitely a learning curve. He stays pretty dry except for the excitable little pee when picked up - but he has always done that to some degree. Pooping has not been an issue for him, except for he obviously cannot stand up while doing it.
The surgeon didn't really give us a time line for restricted activity, but from his past, less severe injuries I know this can take some time - I think it was about six weeks last time before I felt safe letting him walk around as usual. I just found the exercises below earlier today and he has an appointment for physical therapy on the 17th - we will continue acupuncture as well. I try to keep his feet and back legs properly positioned as much as possible and don't let him scoot around (which really irritates him and he lets me know it!)
The whole covid 19 situation has made this tougher than I would imagine it usually is - we weren't allowed inside the surgery center, are not allowed inside the vet office, etc (except for when they were showing me how to express his bladder). So despite phone conversations after each appointment, I feel like I am flying blind with this recovery thing.
At this point, I am really just hoping for bladder control to return at some point, but wasn't sure how long after surgery is considered past the point of return for that. I will keep doing it for him, of course, but it is a lot of pressure being as I am the only one in the house who can/will do.
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Marjorie
Moderator~
Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,722
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Post by Marjorie on Jun 6, 2020 5:11:02 GMT -7
As Paula mentioned, nerves can take a very long time to heal - months, even a year or more. It's still very early days in Breckin's healing so hang in there and please continue to keep us updated. He sounds like he's a very happy boy and that's the most important thing in the long run. Blessings to you all.
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Post by Kelly & Breckin on Jun 9, 2020 18:59:47 GMT -7
We have happy tail wagging today!! At first I thought I was seeing things and maybe it was moving because he was so excited and trying to jump when I got home. But friends came over later that he knows and there was definite tail wagging. I'm so proud I could burst!
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,493
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Post by PaulaM on Jun 9, 2020 19:07:34 GMT -7
Wow! you should be happy how well Breckin is doing in the nerve healing department. Thanks for sharing!!!!
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Post by Kelly & Breckin on Jun 9, 2020 19:12:31 GMT -7
I am beyond happy right now and knew you guys would understand!
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Marjorie
Moderator~
Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,722
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Post by Marjorie on Jun 10, 2020 3:50:42 GMT -7
I well remember how happy and excited I was when my Jeremy first wagged his tail after his surgery. It was certainly a very special moment. Now you've put smiles on our faces sharing your special moment with us. WTG, Breckin!
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Post by Kelly & Breckin on Jun 18, 2020 8:37:37 GMT -7
Hi - thought I would give an update and perhaps get some input, as I am feeling discouraged. Breckin has continued to recovery well with his happy tail wagging and such. He can stand on his back legs for a few seconds if I put his feet in place. He also seems to be "helping" when I express his bladder - stream starts much easier and lasts longer, sometimes with only mild pressure from me helping. So I was feeling positive.....and then
I took him to a rehab vet yesterday. She said he doesn't have deep pain perception yet and made it sound unlikely that he will be able to walk again or even regain full bladder control. At four weeks out from surgery I know we are probably at the upper limits of regaining deep pain, but I wasn't really ready to give up hope yet either. I don't know, I am just so sad and discouraged feeling today.....
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,493
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Post by PaulaM on Jun 18, 2020 9:54:41 GMT -7
Kelly, part of living with an IVDD pet, is being educated. Education helps you to weed out folks giving maybe well intentioned information but is BAD INFO. That can be folks on social media, can be veterianary professionals, rehab folks, too. We always give the caveat to NEVER take the word of anyone but the neuro or the ortho surgeon about the very, very tricky to correctly identify deep pain sensation. Too many family vets get it wrong. What credentials after the rehab vet's name did she have: family general vet with DVM? ortho DVM, ACVS? neuro DVM, ACVIM (neurology)? If Brekin can truly hear (head level) you do some happy talk or see (head level) you offering a yummy treat and then you observe the tail moving back and forth, then by definition, Breckin must first have to have deep pain sensation. Can you tell us what you observe when you do happy talk to Breckin now? I know you reported him seeing (head level) some friends of your coming over and then Breckin wagged his tail. Let us know what you see today. HOW TO ID OTHER MOVEMENTS For us humans to be able to distinguish between reflex and brain directed, we have to see some sort of head level involvement with the tail, with a limb or with release of urine so we know the movement was done with purposeful thinking. --- Sniff (head level nose) then release of urine would be brain directed. --- Hear (head level ear) you doing some happy talk and then tail wags is brain directed. Tail movement during potty time can often be a reflex --- Itchy sensation at at neck and then tries to scratch would be purposeful movement. Tickling paws, etc can cause reflex leg movements. Nerves heal typically in the reverse order of the damage to the spinal cord: 1. Deep Pain Sensation (Only correctly identified by a specialist.)2. Tail wagging with joy at seeing you or getting a treat or meal. 3. Bladder and bowel control verified with the "sniff and pee" test. 4. Leg Movement, and then ability to move up into a standing position, and then wobbly walking. 5. Being able to walk with more steadiness and properly place the feet. 6. Ability to walk unassisted and perhaps even run. More info: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingnerves.htmHave you recently given Breckin the "sniff and pee test"? The only way for humans to know if there is bladder control is with the “sniff and pee test.” Carry outdoors, set him on an old pee spot to sniff. Make sure the sling or your hands are not on the tummy area as that can press on the bladder. See if he will release urine on the old urine area. If urine comes out after sniffing, bladder control is returning. You should continue to do a quick express check to verify there is full voiding until you are certain it is consistently happening. Let us know what you observe.
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Post by Romy & Frankie on Jun 18, 2020 13:20:26 GMT -7
Please do not be discouraged. As Paula mentioned, only a specialist can determine if a dog has DPS. You clearly described a happy tail wag, when friends came over. A true happy tail wag means, as Paula mentioned the dog has DPS. DPS means that the brain has been able to send a message through the spinal cord to another part of the body, in this case Breckin's tail. When a dog does not have DPS it means the spinal cord is too damaged for the brain to send signals to other parts of the body. You have every reason to hope for further recovery. Nerves heal slowly but heal they can.
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Post by Kelly & Breckin on Jun 18, 2020 16:21:16 GMT -7
Thanks for your responses - sorry if I seem a little dense here. This is all so new to me and I love my little guy so much.
The vet we saw last night a DVM, CCRT - so not ortho or neuro. Hopefully she was wrong about the deep pain sensation. We definitely still have happy tail wagging, so I will cling to that for now! When I take him out to pee he doesn't sniff much, but rolls over on his side and pees some. (This is how he peed when he had hurt his back previously, but not as severely). Probably is not very purposeful at this point, but I will keep checking.
Thanks for the encouraging words!
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Marjorie
Moderator~
Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,722
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Post by Marjorie on Jun 19, 2020 4:23:30 GMT -7
It sounds to me like Breckin may have some bladder control but since he can't currently lift his leg, he's devised a new way to go! If this is the way he peed with his previous back injury, then this does sound to me like he's deliberately releasing urine which indicates brain/nerve connection. He may not be able to completely empty his bladder yet so do keep expressing him after he's released some urine on his own.
Please keep in mind that absolutely no one - not a vet, not a specialist, not the moderators here on Dodgerslist - can tell you if or when Breckin will regain nerve function. Each dog heals in his own way and in his own time. 4 weeks is still early in Breckin's healing. Think more in terms of months, even a year or more. I continued to see signs of improvement over a year following my Jeremy's surgery.
So hang in there, stay strong and stay positive! And please do continue to keep us updated.
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Post by Kelly & Breckin on Jul 16, 2020 17:34:19 GMT -7
Thought I would give an update on Breckin. It has been an emotional roller-coaster of a month, but we are making slow progress, 8.5 weeks post op. He has continued with weekly acupuncture and began water treadmill therapy last week. Last week he began being able to hold a stand position for 10-15 seconds if his legs were properly placed for him. He also very slowly corrected his knuckled paw position for both vets this week. And tonight he stood up on his own in the stroller, although I had placed his rear legs in a typical sit position when I put him on there. Still the first time he had done that. He still loves to bunny hunt several times a day during our stroller walks and we chase bunny scents around the house with his gingerlead and me elevating his rear legs so they don't drag.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,493
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Post by PaulaM on Jul 16, 2020 21:26:38 GMT -7
Kelly, thank you so much for stopping by to give us this most marvelous update. Brecken is really on a roll with self healing his nerves! Being able to move up into a stand by himself tonight is quite a feat in strong muscles, muscle/ nerve coordination. I believe with water treadmill on board, you will be seeing even more nerve repair and ability at some point to move the back legs in the water. Have you started introducing Breckin back in to family life and activities? GRADUATION, A SLOW INTRODUCTION Determine how you are going to ease back into more normal activity at graduation. The idea is to gradually give more freedom under controlled conditions. Not free reign of the house and yard immediately! LOL Take a look at our information and then come up with a plan to gradually increase activity over about a month's time following the end of crate rest. Here is a sample schedule to slowly introduce your dog back to family life and physical activity: dodgerslist.com/2020/06/15/back-friendly/♥️Make your home back friendly to reduce stress on the spine, no more steps -- Furniture Blockers- dodgerslist.com/2020/07/09/home-protect-ivdd-backs/♥️Have some fun! dodgerslist.com/2020/06/16/have-fun-nose-work/♥️plus additional gems of living with an IVDD dog: dodgerslist.com/living-with-ivdd-tips/You will want to consider how you will prevent rug burns from scooting and protecting bacteria from entering the bladder. Here are some sew and no-sew options: dodgerslist.com/2020/06/13/garment-skin-uti-protection/ Can't wait to hear your next update!!
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