Jill & Tex
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MALE - Harrier Lab mix
Posts: 27
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Post by Jill & Tex on May 31, 2020 19:21:53 GMT -7
Tex is a 67 lb mixed breed most likely Harrier Lab mix.
He presented with pain that I noticed on 5/29, which I thought was a rear leg pain. Then, it did not get better on 5/30 so I took him to the vet around lunch. He continued declining at the vet to not being able to walk (rear legs only) or urinate. Our primary vet referred us to a neurologist in Auburn, AL. We drove him there and I was thankful for the 2 hours that I got to spend with him on Saturday evening. He and I both needed that time.
After he was there for the night, he recieved an MRI the next afternoon. They determined that surgery was a good option to remove the damage because 5-6 places were affected. After yet another hard decision, I told them to proceed with surgery today (5/31). He made it through surgery and it went well. His spinal cord is swollen so they expect him to get worse before he gets better. Now I wait.
That was expensive, but I couldn't give up on him. He is my shadow. He sure would not give up on me. It was very hard because he loves to run beautifully like a gazelle.
I am looking for advice for the next 6 months on recuperating him from surgery for if he is able to walk again or if he is not. Anything you can provide will help me. Encouragement, ideas, what to buy before he gets home, anything and everything! I plan to read posts, but tonight I plan to try to get some sleep with the good news. Thank you for any info you may provide.
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Marjorie
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Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
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Post by Marjorie on Jun 1, 2020 4:32:46 GMT -7
Welcome to Dodgerslist, Jill. So glad you’ve joined us all. We’ve got valuable information we’ve gleaned from the vets Dodgerslist consults with and our own experiences with IVDD since 2002 to share with you! Post-op crate rest is to allow the surgical sites to heal.Super tried and true tips for setting up the recovery suite, the mattress and more! —> www.dodgerslist.com/literature/CrateRRP.htmSTRICT for a post-op dog means: ◼︎no laps ◼︎no couches ◼︎no baths ◼︎no sleeping with you ◼︎no chiro therapy whys: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/chiropractic.htm◼︎no dragging or meandering at potty times. Post-op dogs will follow surgeon's directives for PT during post-op rest as the offending disc material was surgically removed. How long do they plan on keeping Tex in the hospital? Once he's discharged, please let us know the names of the meds that he's sent home on and the mgs of each and frequency given. Please also let us know how many weeks of crate rest are prescribed and what PT is prescribed. If Tex does not have bladder control when he's released from the hospital, you'll need to get a demonstration on how to express his bladder. Here's our video on expressing to review: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/Expressing.htmDOGs with BLADDER CONTROL: Carry to and from the recovery suite to the potty place and then allow a very few limited footsteps unless surgeon has directed some walking PT. Using a sling (long winter scarf, ace bandage, belt) will save your back and help to keep a wobbly dog’s back aligned and butt from tipping over. A harness and 6 foot leash is to control speed and keep footsteps to minimum as you stand in one spot. An ex-pen in the grass is an excellent alternative to minimizing footsteps with the physical and visual to indicate there will be no sniff festing going on! i.ibb.co/K7HNj10/slingwalk.jpgIf your dog is too big to carry, it is still important that the amount of movement to the potty place be minimized until your surgeon directs otherwise. Try a pee pad right outside the crate. Add caster wheels to a wire crate and wheel down ramp over steps to outside. Place recovery suite near door. Neuropathic pain is not common but is something you should be aware of. This kind of pain is abnormal, phantom pain sensations with severe spinal cord damage. Signs are obsessive licking of paw, leg, genitals, tail. Escalates to biting, life-threatening chewing off parts. Immediately put on an e-collar (or lengthwise folded towel around neck and duct taped closed) to prevent access to lower body. Contact vet immediately for Gabapentin or stronger Lyrica (pregabalin) for neuropathic pain. More info: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/neuropathy.pdfHere's Dodgerslist page about what to expect discharge day. www.dodgerslist.com/literature/surgery.htm#dischargeHere is a list of questions to ask on discharge day, too. www.dodgerslist.com/literature/dischargequestions.htmAlso these two pages would be helpful for you to read: www.dodgerslist.com/literature.htmwww.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingsurgery.htmAcupuncture and laser light therapy are helpful treatments that can be very beneficial to assist with re-establishment of nerve connections in the body and usually can be started right away if within your budget. www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingacupuncture.htmAlso water therapy can be performed after the stitches/sutures are removed. Some of these exercises can be done right in the bathtub. Please check with the surgeon before starting any of these. www.dodgerslist.com/literature/watertherapy.htmNeuropathic pain is not common but is something you should be aware of. This kind of pain is abnormal, phantom pain sensations with severe spinal cord damage. Signs are obsessive licking of paw, leg, genitals, tail. Escalates to biting, life-threatening chewing off parts. Immediately put on an e-collar (or lengthwise folded towel around neck and duct taped closed) to prevent access to lower body. Contact vet immediately for Gabapentin or stronger Lyrica (pregabalin) for neuropathic pain. More info: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/neuropathy.pdfKnowledge is the power to fight the IVDD enemy and win!!The very best thing you can do for YOU, the caregiver, and for your dog is to get up to speed on IVDD as soon as possible. Begin absorbing the must-have overall sense of meds, care and how the treatment works. Your dog will be depending on your ability to learn: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/theater.htm --- PRINT OUT this link and tape to your fridge: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingpage.htm --- use the printout as your roadmap to avoid dangerous detours in your dog's care --- make notes/highlight to keep yourself on track --- follow all the links in the next days to become the IVDD savvy pet parent your dog needs. Use the “search box” to easily locate topics over at our Main www.dodgerslist.com website: www.dodgerslist.com/index/searchBOX.jpgHealing prayers for Tex. Please keep us updated.
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Jill & Tex
New Member
MALE - Harrier Lab mix
Posts: 27
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Post by Jill & Tex on Jun 1, 2020 15:27:30 GMT -7
They seem to think he will be there less than 10 days, but it is all dependent on how it goes day by day.
As soon as I know more, I will update here.
Thank you so much for all the good information. I will sit down and read over all the links. It is something I really needed. This is so much to take and I appreciate the support!
He is stable today, but does not have deep pain, which may be due to the pain meds and sedation (or not). Although, they told us due to the swelling of the spinal cord, he may get worse before he gets better.
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PaulaM
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Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
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Post by PaulaM on Jun 1, 2020 15:34:28 GMT -7
Jill, good to hear Tex is stable. Similar to when you cut yourself, swelling happens. The surgical procedure itself can cause swelling and temporary nerve setback. Often it can take 2 weeks for the swelling to subside to better see the direction of nerve healing.
We look forward to the next update. Hope to hear it will not take 10day hospital stay and Tex will soon be back in familiar territory at home.
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Jill & Tex
New Member
MALE - Harrier Lab mix
Posts: 27
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Post by Jill & Tex on Jun 2, 2020 6:22:29 GMT -7
The have mentioned that this other thing can present itself now that he doesn't have deep pain. I can't remember the word, but I believe it started with an "M" and that it could take up to 14 days. I will ask them this morning when they call if they don't mention it.
They said yesterday evening [June 1] his surgery pain was lessening and that they were going to start trying to take him off IV and back to some soft food gradually to see how he does.
I have time today to read through a lot on here and I think my brain has had enough rest now to retain it better.
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Marjorie
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Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
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Post by Marjorie on Jun 2, 2020 6:35:10 GMT -7
They're referring to Myelomalacia. It's another disease that can set in when there has been severe spinal injury. Try not to focus on that - just focus on getting Tex home where you can love him to bits. My Jeremy's spine was very bruised, too, and he had lost deep pain sensation and I worried myself sick about Myelomalacia. It never happened. Try not to worry about something that is rare and focus on the good things. More information: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/Myelomalacia.pdf
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Jill & Tex
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MALE - Harrier Lab mix
Posts: 27
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Post by Jill & Tex on Jun 3, 2020 8:25:20 GMT -7
Thank you.
They are implying that 3 days after surgery without deep pain, bladder control, and sphincter control that his outlook doesn't look good. Based on what ive read, it can take longer. Is that true?
They have approved a visit this afternoon so I'm gathering up some of his favorite foods and a small blanket I slept with last night. My mom and I are about to head to see him. He's a little over 2 hours away.
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PaulaM
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Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,530
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Post by PaulaM on Jun 3, 2020 9:53:26 GMT -7
Jill, a surgeon needs to make owner's aware of this other disease, "M." Truth is we've seen many thousands of dogs on this forum with same neuro status as Tex, that do not get the uncommon "M."
My surgeon informed me about "M" too. My dog went on to live many happy years post-op with his wheelchair to the age of 15 when cancer ended his life. Agree with Marjorie, be aware but focus on the now and the good things that are happening: -- pain is lessening -- surgeon will be transitioning to oral pain meds so Tex can come home!
Let know how Tex is doing. I bet his spirits will be greatly lifted with your visit this afternoon.
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Marjorie
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Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
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Post by Marjorie on Jun 3, 2020 10:34:26 GMT -7
I'd just like to share this additional information with you, Jill, to help you to recognize any misinformation you may be given. Many vets have never observed a case of Myelomalacia so you might want to print out the symptoms listed below so you can discuss and have a plan. It is important that owners are also familiar with symptoms in order to promptly get vet help at any hour of the night or day. Although Myelomalacia was thought to be rare, we are finding that perhaps it is not as uncommon as once thought. Many vets have never observed a case of Myelomalacia so you might want to print out the symptoms listed below so you can discuss and have a plan. With Myelomalacia, what happens basically is that the spinal cord starts to die from the point of the spinal cord trauma moving forward toward the head. It is very painful and if it continues to progress up the spine, it will eventually shut down breathing. Here are some of the symptoms that are used to diagnose Myelomalacia and the symptoms that evolve as it progresses. It can happen fast, within hours. Should your dog be developing myelomalacia that is ascending (moving up towards the lung – not descending – and getting near to the lungs which will cause respiratory paralysis), you would want to help him cross to the rainbow bridge to spare a very painful death. Deep pain sensation nor leg function not returning right away alone are not symptoms of myelomalacia. Myelomalacia can be easily confirmed by your DVM with the following: * about 3-4 days into recovery, they become painful. Within the first week, they are in a LOT of pain. * development of excruciating pain (more than just pain from the original disc herniation) • even the strongest pain meds do not help • once the symptoms begin continued death of the spinal cord happens fast.. in a matter of hours, requiring prompt ER vet help and prevent suffering that will only end badly in death. • hyper-esthesia (over-reaction to any touch sensation on body) * acute disc extrusion with no deep pain sensation * loss of anal tone, the anus hangs open, (anal flaccidity) and areflexia (below normal or no reflexes) * loss of cutaneous trunci reflex at a level more cranial to a previous evaluation over a period of hours to days with or w/o surgery * development of fever (normal rectal temperature is 100.5 to 102.5 degrees Fahrenheit) * sudden twitching or jerking of the neck and/or head * loss of voice, hoarse bark * can't hold body up, can't hold head up * increased respiration/ labored breathing as the nerves to the lungs begin to shutdown • On an MRI, extensive high T2 signal (brightness) within the spinal cord (>6 vertebral lengths) has been associated with myelomalacia in the setting of a disk extrusion. www.dodgerslist.com/literature/myelomalacia/3t-myelo-misdxb0002.tifAs for the return of deep pain sensation and the return of bladder control, yes, that can certainly take longer than three days. So please don't listen to gloom and doom prognoses - stay strong and stay positive!
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Jill & Tex
New Member
MALE - Harrier Lab mix
Posts: 27
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Post by Jill & Tex on Jun 4, 2020 12:48:38 GMT -7
June 3 Thank you for the info. They have weaned him off the IV pain meds as of this morning.
I hope that he will eat something from me since he has not so far from them.
My mom and I are on our way now.
June 4 My mom and I visited with Tex yesterday for 2 hours. I saw a change in him from the time we arrived to the time we left. The doctor said that his demeanor was much better after we left too!
He ate 5 bites of chicken from me while I was there, which is the first solid food he had since Friday evening. However, he ate a good breakfast this morning! Yay! Thank goodness!
No neurological change. Still no deep pain or elimination control.
He went to PT this morning for the first time for electro impulse to keep his muscles engaged.
While he didnt look great, I felt hope after seeing him. I told him to keep fighting and that he could come home soon.
I think that the positive change in Tex after the visit will get us another visit sooner rather than later!
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Post by Romy & Frankie on Jun 4, 2020 13:14:51 GMT -7
I'm glad you got to visit with Tex and saw a positive change in him.
Many, many dogs do not show improvement less than a week after surgery. My dog Frankie had no DPS after surgery and no bowel or bladder control. His back end was just a dead weight. At the last visit with the surgeon, the one-month follow-up, there was no improvement. It took months but Frankie regained his ability to walk and bowel and bladder control. I am not sure if the surgeon was every aware that Frankie regained his ability to walk. That may be the reason that many surgeons seem pessimistic about the chances for improvement.
What helped my dog the most after surgery was PT on an underwater treadmill. I do not think he would have recovered nearly as quickly without it. If this is something you are interested in, speak to your surgeon. This type of therapy can often begin after the stitches/staples are removed.
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Jill & Tex
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MALE - Harrier Lab mix
Posts: 27
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Post by Jill & Tex on Jun 7, 2020 5:55:29 GMT -7
That's great information! Thank you!
No neurological change.
However, my dad and I visited with him yesterday morning and he looked so much better. He was sitting up.
He's had acupuncture and electroimpulse therapy several times this week.
His appetite is back.
He is taking to bladder expression and they said they will help me learn that because as I already know I MUST be able to do that consistently before he can go home.
I've purchased an ex-pen and several yards of fleece. PT is going to supply a harness. I also bought a garden cart so I can transport him outside or from room to room easily. They were using one to bring him out to me for visits. I figured it might help save my back.
His front legs are very strong and the doctor said Tex helps with his front legs very well.
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PaulaM
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Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
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Post by PaulaM on Jun 7, 2020 8:33:15 GMT -7
Jill, what a handsome guy Tex is, thanks for sharing his photo. I realize moving a 67 pound dog is a challenge. Here's the thing, we've seen paralyzed dogs jump off a couch, go down stairs...these dogs do not consider they have an impairment. Think how to best protect Tex from himself. Lifting 67 lbs into and out of a garden cart can be hard on your back. Since his front legs are so strong, discuss and consider a rear end harness to save your back. There are many on the market, the Auburn U. PT people may be able to guide you in considering which brand/model is best for Tex. Here is just one of the many manufacturers, might be useful in coming up with the features you'd want in a rear harness, etc: www.walkaboutharnesses.com/pages/product-comparison?type=harnesses. Consider a ramp to use with getting Tex into and out of your vehicle. Ramps from now on--- no more steps/stairs even at home. Some ideas on the pros/cons of various vehicle type ramps www.petful.com/pet-products/dog-ramp-for-car/ When you get your expressing lesson, call ahead an hour before to make sure Tex has been given a drink. That way he'll have some urine in the bladder and and something for you to practice on at the hospital. Expressing is a new skill. With a weeks worth of practice you will "get" it. Many times it is worthwhile to get a refresher and more tips if you need them, by visiting your family veterinarian. There in the clinic you can express and then have the vet tech or the vet check your work and give you more tips. Don't forget to review the link Marjorie gave on expressing. That way your sure to get more out of the You will get more out of a hands-on-top-of-your-hands type of expressing lesson at Auburn U: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/Expressing.htm Note at the link, you will also be able to express for poop. Keep us posted how Tex is doing at the hospital and when discharge day might be.
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Jill & Tex
New Member
MALE - Harrier Lab mix
Posts: 27
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Post by Jill & Tex on Jun 13, 2020 5:09:15 GMT -7
Tex is supposed to come home later today, Saturday 6/13!
No neurological change. No deep pain or control past the last rib. He requires bladder expression. Somewhere I read that anal expression is required, but the doctor said his is fully relaxed and it will come out after he eats on its own.
I had a bladder expression lesson on Wednesday (6/10) and I didn't empty it, but they said I did good for the first time. They asked me to make daily doctor appointments from today through next Friday to get them to check his bladder. My vet is farther than I want to drive daily so I found a good vet closer to home for the Monday through Friday ones, but today (if needed, depending on when we get back in town) and tomorrow are at the location where my normal vet is. Unfortunately, he is on vacation until next Monday, but we have other vets that he and Auburn have talked to about Tex.
I will update what medicine he goes home with after we get home and settled.
Wednesday night was a long night for him. They took an x-ray thinking his stomach flipped (he vomited and then coughed some). Thank goodness it wasn't that since he would have required surgery and couldn't handle it again. However, the x-ray showed that he had the beginning of pneumonia so they started him on antibiotics. We caught it early. It delayed him coming home one day, but thankfully he is better.
I also have an appointment with the holistic vet in 2 weeks for acupuncture, electro-impulse therapy, and maybe light therapy. I wasnt sure when to make it, but I hate him being in the car so much traveling right now.
Tomorrow marks 2 weeks post surgery. The doctor says after 6 more weeks, they will want him back in Auburn to determine if he needs more time to heal or if he can be fitted for a wheelchair.
My mom and I will be leaving in about an hour to head that way. My dad made a "stretcher" to help us get Tex in and out of the vehicle without his spine moving too much.
Auburn is supplying their suggested harness for him to go home. I haven't seen it, but I'll decide how I like it and buy a second harness in the near future.
Sorry this is a lot for one post! I've been out of pocket trying to work as much as I can before he comes home!
Thank you!
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Marjorie
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Post by Marjorie on Jun 13, 2020 5:26:50 GMT -7
If Tex is on any type of anti-inflammatory (either a steroid or a NSAID), do be sure that they are also giving him a stomach protector such as Pepcid AC (Famotidine). Vomiting is a red flag sign of GI distress which is a side effect of an anti-inflammatory. Please be sure before leaving the hospital before that a stomach protector is also prescribed or that you're given the OK to give Pepcid AC (over the counter) if an anti-inflammatory is on board. Famotidine (Pepcid AC) The typical dose administered is 0.25 to 0.5 mg per pound (0.5 to 1.0 mg/kg) every 12 to 24 hours. www.petcarerx.com/medication-guides/famotidine-for-pet-stomach-ulcers/1116?page=allLearning how to express the bladder can take some practice but it sounds like you're off to a good start. Here's our page with tips on expressing for your review: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/Expressing.htmBowel expression is not a health necessity but can be done to avoid accidents. Info on how to do that in the link above. I know you and Tex will be very happy to have him home again. Please continue to keep us updated. Healing prayers for Tex.
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Jill & Tex
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MALE - Harrier Lab mix
Posts: 27
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Post by Jill & Tex on Jun 14, 2020 10:19:51 GMT -7
He's home. I will add meds after some sleep later today. Trying to sleep while he does!
It was a long night, but we made it through night #1. Woohoo!
He weighed 72 lbs at discharge according to the vet. Although, he looks closer to 60-65 lbs to me with the muscle atrophy.
1. Prednisone 15 mg - 3 doses remaining MWF 8 AM. 2. Tamsulosin 0.4 mg - 1 dose a day at 8 PM (no end date scheduled as I get used to expression) 3. Diazepam 15 mg - 3 times a day - 20 minutes prior to expression 8AM, 4PM, 12AM (no end date scheduled as I get used to expression) 4. Trazadone 75 mg - 3 times a day - 8AM, 4 PM, 12AM - as needed, but I don't see how he can go without this for a couple of weeks (at least) as we get in a routine to keep him calm enough for crate rest. 5. Tylosin 650 mg - 2 times a day - 8AM, 8PM - antibiotic for diarrhea as he gets used to his regular diet. Ends Monday night. 6. Clavamox 625 mg - 3 times a day - 8AM, 4 PM, 12 AM - antibiotic for his pneumonia. About 19 days left 7. Gabapentin 300 mg - 3 times a day - 8 AM, 4 PM, 12 AM - ends Monday evening, but I have more if he shows any pain symptoms. He has not so far. 8. Silver Sulfadiazene (SSD) cream: apply to cleaned and dried areas after an elimination. He's already looking better than yesterday. His sporadic pneumonia cough causes pee and sometimes poop to come out randomly which has lead to scalding.
I have not been to my vet yet since we didn't get home until 5 and the Auburn vet emptied his bladder via catheter before discharge. I emptied or nearly emptied his bladder last night before bed, once during the night and once this morning. His bladder is hard to find, but once I find it, it flows. He also loses some when he coughs. I change out the pee pad after a coughing fit. Trying to get through the pneumonia part. The vet is open today for emergencies, and I have an appointment tomorrow at 9. If the next expression goes ok, I may wait until tomorrow because I'm worried about more car riding already. Unless you think it is necessary.
I asked about fomatidine (sp?), but the doctor said he had been on an antacid and didn't need it anymore during the tapering off of the prednisone.
If anyone has suggestions on rear end harnesses, please share. He came home with one that is super difficult to get on and keep clean (maybe that's all of them).
Thanks for your help and all the information! Time to turn Tex on his other side!
I'm so happy he is home. Now we must take time to heal. Today marks 2 weeks post surgery.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
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Post by PaulaM on Jun 14, 2020 12:49:48 GMT -7
Jill, how wonderful to finally have Tex back at home!! it sounds as though you are really getting the hang of expressing the bladder. Whenever you feel you need an extra lesson, then do go in to express Tex in the clinic. Then the vet or vet tech can check your work, give more tips, etc. The antibiotics clavamox and Tylosin are broad spectrum so not likely he'll be developing a UTI if you are not fully emptying the bladder yet. What is also important about expressing is to prevent the bladder from overflowing. As reflex overflow does not happen til the bladder is filled to the stretch point to kick in reflexes. Too much over stretching the bladder wall will ruin the tone of the bladder, perhaps permanently. So as long as you are expressing often enough and fully enough to prevent overflowing, you are doing a good job. While on prednisone you may have to express frequently like every 2-3 hours to keep him dry. When off pred and your expressing proficiency is quite good, then expressing can move to more like every 4-6 hours and overnight 8 hrs. What about expressing for poop, are you doing that? Don't need a lesson to learn.... learn his body schedule, watch the video for the tips. All is demoed and explained here: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/Expressing.htmWhat is the brand name rear end harness supplied to you? - Help 'em up rear harness: helpemup.com/features/ - Walkabout rear harness: www.walkaboutharnesses.com/pages/product-comparison?type=harnessesWhen/if you order, do call to discuss Tex's needs rather than order from on-line. I spoke with the Walkabout folks about getting the right fit/measurements and felt comfortable in their product. The "Airlift one" is a fabric that allows for air circulation with summer weather so that he may be able to wear for much of the day. www.walkaboutharnesses.com/pages/product-comparison?type=harnesses
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Jill & Tex
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MALE - Harrier Lab mix
Posts: 27
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Post by Jill & Tex on Jun 16, 2020 17:45:33 GMT -7
I think I imagined it, but I think I saw his tail flinch very little as I was petting him and talking to him tonight. I'm so tired, it could be delirium though.
The pneumonia seems to have improved after continued antibiotics.
What are some signs that you have seen that he is starting to feel?
What about pain?
The gabapentin from Auburn ended last night and he seemed a little tense this afternoon so I gave him 300 mg of Gabapentin. He seems relaxed now, but he also got his diazepam and trazadone an hour later.
Alright, going to try to sleep while he is sleeping!
We have referrals as well as appointments for physical therapy, acupuncture, and electro therapy starting next week.
They provided the Help em up harness (front and back).
Thanks for all the info! I'll read over and ask questions if I have them!
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,530
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Post by PaulaM on Jun 16, 2020 18:28:00 GMT -7
Jill, here are the ways you can watch for neuro function returning.
You will need to trust only the word of a neuro or ortho if deep pain sensation has returned. However the next function to come back is the "happy" tail wag that no one can make a mistake about. For us humans to be able to distinguish between reflex and brain directed, we have to see some sort of head level involvement with the tail, with a limb or with release of urine so we know the movement was done with purposeful thinking. --- Sniff (head level nose) then release of urine would be brain directed. --- Hear (head level ear) you doing some happy talk and then tail wags is brain directed. Tail movement during potty time is often movement caused by reflex. --- Itchy sensation at at neck and then attempts to scratch would be purposeful movement. Tickling paws, etc can cause reflex leg movements.
Most dogs are able to get the post-op pain and swelling down in 2 weeks. Maybe Tex needs a bit more time? You know him best, if is uncomfortable. Any concerns, do get in touch with your surgeon or family vet and let them know. Did the gabapentin do an abrupt stop of from 300mgs to nothing. Maybe, then it is rebound pain. Discuss if it would be worthwhile to back off gabapentin in mgs or frequency, kinda weaning off of it.
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Jill & Tex
New Member
MALE - Harrier Lab mix
Posts: 27
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Post by Jill & Tex on Jun 18, 2020 17:20:16 GMT -7
It was an abrupt stop from 300 mg to none on the gabapentin.
I will call them in the morning to discuss. ---------------
The vet we have been seeing to check his bladder gave us a prescription for 100 mg Gabapentin to he used to taper off.
I asked the neurologist about the hard stop and he said it is normal to stop cold turkey, but since it is a safe drug that I could continue at 300 mg, give as needed, or taper off 200 mg, then to 100 mg. He said without seeing Tex that it was hard for him to know his pain level.
The bladder checks have gone well and the vet said he had improved so much from our Monday visit to Wednesday. He commended us for taking care of him. Also, he pinched his paw a few times and thought he noticed an increase in respiration, but later while Tex was laying facing away from him, he pinched again and Tex turned to look at him like he felt it. He said on Monday he was worried, but that seeing him Wednesday that he had hope for him!
The urine scald is almost gone. He went from dark red and white patches across his entire belly to almost a natural color today eith very little pink patches left. I clean up quickly after a pee and since the pneumonia cough is less, there is less sporadic pee. Also, the vet suggested a baby diaper that wicks away the moisture instead of a pee pad and it works great! In fact, I use it when I express him because it soaks it up so much faster without getting hardly any on his leg!
His butt is taking longer to heal, but does look better than when he first came home!
We start rehab next week. Unfortunately, the one day that appointments are available landed on the same day. Tuesday, we are going to the holistic vet for acupuncture and electro-impulse. Then, onto the rehab place for physical and laser therapies. Is that too much?
The rehab lady said as long as we are not doing underwater treadmill it was fine. She will not do that until 2 days after acupuncture. I was afraid of underwarer treadmill with the fecal scald, but hopefully we will be ready for that the following week.
We go back for a bladder check tomorrow.
I think I got everything. =)
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PaulaM
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Posts: 19,530
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Post by PaulaM on Jun 19, 2020 6:34:14 GMT -7
Jill, your excellent attention to nursing care for Tex is paying off! It sure appears that deep pain sensation may have come back with the not facing the vet and then turned at the pinch to look at the vet.
Which of the several options the neuro mentioned are you actually giving gabapentin? And with the new option, are you seeing any pain now?
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Jill & Tex
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MALE - Harrier Lab mix
Posts: 27
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Post by Jill & Tex on Jun 19, 2020 16:02:55 GMT -7
He does not act like he has pain in the mornings, but the afternoons seem to show [pain] some. Maybe later in the day is due to the small amount of PT that they sent us home with and the very short 2-3 walks outside, which are the highlight of his day.
Tuesday: 300 mg @ 5:30 PM
Wednesday: 300 mg @ 2:30 AM 200 mg @ 4:15 PM
Thursday: 300 mg @ 12:30 AM 200 mg @ 10:30 AM 300 mg @ 8:50 PM
Friday: 100 mg @ 4:15 PM
I was trying to see if he was in pain and dosing based on the amount of pain he seemed to be showing. I tend to give him 300 mg at bedtime because I worry about him biting his paws while I sleep since he is a Houdini (he got out of his e-collar one night - it is a comfortable one because the plastic sound scares him), but did not chew, just laid down without it. Although, he is not showing signs of the chewing while I am awake, it gives me piece of mind to rest better.
I have a camera on him during the day and night so I can watch him if I walk to another room. I shared it with my mom so she can periodically look while I'm sleeping, but not have to spend the night!
We did not go to the vet today, but have an appointment Monday afternoon for a bladder check. They had an emergency and I felt like we were doing ok expressing.
We finished the prednisone today.
Current medications (still a lot, but less than when he came home - yay!):
- Diazapam: 10:30 AM (10 mg), 6:30 PM (15 mg), 2:30 AM (15 mg) (trying to reduce the dosage during the day time as he allows since his expression is going well)
- Trazadone: 10:30 AM (50 mg), 6:30 PM (75 mg), 2:30 AM (75 mg) (trying to reduce the dosage during the day as long as he stays calm for crate rest)
- Clavamox 625 mg: 10:30 AM, 6:30 PM, 2:30 AM (41 pills left - will get an x-ray before they run out to confirm the pneumonia has gone)
- Tamsulosin 0.4 mg: 9 PM (9 pills left - 2 refills for 14 pills available)
- Gabapentin as noted above - at least 300 mg at 9 PM for another week for my sanity and sleep.
Thank you for your continued help! Tex and I both appreciate all of you!
How do I post a picture? It doesn't give me the option from my phone so I'll get on a computer soon and upload a few of him in his recovery suite!
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PaulaM
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Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
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Post by PaulaM on Jun 19, 2020 17:44:24 GMT -7
Was the e-collar due to signs of neuro pathic phantom pain in his limbs/ paws/penis where the animal wants to bite or chew off a body part? Gabapentin is the drug that blocks that kind of phantom pain. Or was the e-collar prescribed for another reason? The "ADD IMAGE BUTTON" is only available when in the desktop mode on a cell phone. As shown in picture below, you would scroll down to the bottom of the screen to click on "Desktop". click image below to view full graphic of where "desktop" button is located
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Jill & Tex
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MALE - Harrier Lab mix
Posts: 27
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Post by Jill & Tex on Jun 19, 2020 17:54:01 GMT -7
They sent him home with one because he chewed or licked his paws one or two times. I have only seen him lick them when we comes in from a walk which he always did if his paws were wet. I have not seen him chew them since he came home.However, since they saw it, sent him home with an e-collar, and told me his legs would have to be amputated if he had the pain, I have worried about it! I want him to have the chance after crate rest to use his legs again if he is able to gain any of that back! ibb.co/q56Dz8v ibb.co/vmsB3YY
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Marjorie
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Post by Marjorie on Jun 20, 2020 5:21:45 GMT -7
Dogs with IVDD can develop neuropathic pain. I have never, never heard of a vet recommend amputation for neuropathy! Gabapentin can help with neuropathic pain so that may be why he no longer licks his paws. Pain varies in degrees from mild to severe on-fire sensations. Everyone has experienced numbness or pins and needles tingling in your legs when sitting in a bad position for too long a time. Tex could be feeling abnormal nerve sensations that are mild pins and needles but which could progress to painful burning, on-fire feeling that makes them bite or lick obsessively to stop the pain. These are abnormal signals… neuropathic pain. Dogs have tragically chewed off body parts to stop the pain so you do have to keep a close eye out to see if the Gabapentin is working sufficiently to keep the pain under control. More info on neuropathic pain: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/neuropathy.pdfThanks for the photos. Tex is a handsome boy! Is that an enclosed pen that he's in? Surgeons usually prescribe post-op crate rest for 4-6 weeks. During that time, Tex would need to be confined to allow his spine to heal, only out of the crate for potty time and PT. How many weeks of crate rest did the surgeon prescribe?
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Jill & Tex
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MALE - Harrier Lab mix
Posts: 27
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Post by Jill & Tex on Jun 20, 2020 6:56:34 GMT -7
He said if the pain persists the only option is amputation to keep them from chewing, but they wouldn't do that before the crate rest is over. He shows no sign of it during the day! I have only seen licking of the rear paws after they touch damp grass.The pen was not closed when I took the picture, but it is closed if I leave the room or am sleeping. I had just been laying next to him so it was open. They said 6 weeks of crate rest. I'm assuming that was 6 weeks from the time he went home, but they told us to schedule an appointment with them in the 6-8 week range after surgery. July 12 - July 26 36 days left for the 8 week mark! The pen this morning. I call his the Tex-Pen. 😆
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PaulaM
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Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
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Post by PaulaM on Jun 20, 2020 8:12:01 GMT -7
For the pain from neuropathy, it is staying on gabapentin til the phantom pain does away by itself. As you can see there are different kinds of pain. When you please tell us what you observe rather than to use general term "pain"
What is the current gabapentin schedule? Because gabapentin lasts in the body for 8 hrs, please include how many times a day you give.
gabapentin as of 6/17: 300mgs/▼200mgs/▲300mgs as of 6/19: ▼100 mgs 1x?/day
Your handsome boy looks very comfy in his Tex-pen!
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Jill & Tex
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MALE - Harrier Lab mix
Posts: 27
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Post by Jill & Tex on Jun 20, 2020 8:53:29 GMT -7
What I see as pain is that his front legs become stiffer than normal (he liked them straight before this), he is less reluctant to sit up (by this I mean [reluctant]roll to his head between his front legs instead of fully on his side), and his eyes are more dilated than usual. I'm just sensing he is in pain, but I'm also sensing that he wants to spring up and run outside like he used to do. So, its convoluted and confusing!
Since I posted times for Gabapentin yesterday, he has gotten the following dosages @ times: - 100 mg @ 7 PM - 100 mg @ 9 PM (wanted him to have 300 mg for the night) - 100 mg @ 2 AM - 200 mg @ 10:30 AM
[Moderator's Note. Please do not edit gabapentin as of 6/17: 300mgs/▼200mgs/▲300mgs as of 6/19: ▼100 mgs 1x/day as of 6/20: ▲200mgs 3x/day]
Yesterday, I was wanting to see how he acted without it, but my mom and I thought he needed some around 4 pm, so today [6/20] I plan to give him 200 mg every 8 hours starting at 10:30 AM.
I need to add that he was already a nervous dog that was my shadow. So, it is painful to him not to be able to follow me wherever I go even if it is 3 steps away
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PaulaM
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Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
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Post by PaulaM on Jun 20, 2020 9:40:19 GMT -7
Glad to hear you will no longer be giving gabapentin all over the place, up and down with 200mgs promptly every 8 hrs. It is practically impossible to see a pattern of which kind of pain happens (arthritis, neuropathy, muscle) when meds are constantly changing thru the day and day to day. Recommend a med chart to note things, see patterns and have accurate info at your fingertips for vet discussion. A medication chart is useful to see patterns, have dates and specific facts handy as you discuss things with the vet. D/l a sample and a blank form to print out to use with your dog's meds www.dodgerslist.com/literature/crateRRP/medchart.pdfNeuropathic pain If you are going to follow your surgeon's idea, IF/WHEN you are planning at some point to taper gabapentin, then try 100mgs every 8 hrs for several days. Then further reduce maybe 100mgs but 2x/day for several days. Then further reduce to 100mgs 1x/day for several days and then stop. Each reduction gives you time to observe Tex as the concentration of gabapentin is less if he has a tendency to lick/chew caused by phantom pain. Reluctance to move is a different kind of pain. Could be due to overdoing muscle exercises where he is kinda stiff and is reluctant to go from lying down to turning to prone with head between his front legs. Speak with your family vet or the Auburn surgeon if a NSAID would be useful just as it is for people when they've overdone too much exercise with an Alieve® or such. There are special doggie NSAIDs as human NSAIDs are a no-no for dogs. But there must be 4-7 days of washout from the 6/18 stop of prednisone so as not to harm the stomach lining. Arthritic pain Often after getting up and being active the stiffness from overnight or not moving much , helps to relieve arthritic pain. There is a totally new kind of doggie NSAID created to only target the pain of arthritis. Galliprant. Also needs 4-7 days after 6/19 stop of prednisone before using. Above are just things you might discuss with your vet in figuring out how to best deal with each kind of pain.
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Jill & Tex
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MALE - Harrier Lab mix
Posts: 27
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Post by Jill & Tex on Jun 24, 2020 20:22:15 GMT -7
We changed to 100 mg of ▼100 mgs 1x/dayGabapentin as of today 3x daily for at least 3 days. He hasnt worn an e-collar at night for several nights. However, I place a bell trap across the pen so I'll wake up if he leans towards his rear just in case! He does lick his rear legs on occasion (seldomly) during the day when they are wet from the yard, expression, or a wash cloth bath.
[Moderator's Note. Please do not edit gabapentin as of 6/17: 300mgs/▼200mgs/▲300mgs as of 6/19: ▼100 mgs 1x/day as of 6/20: ▲200mgs 3x/day as of 6/24: ▼100 mgs 3x/day ]
Tex went to the holistic vet yesterday. He got laser therapy, electro-acupuncture, and PEMF therapy. He slept really good last night!
They gave us two supplements and suggested we add the following to his diet: - Goat's Milk - CBD Oil - Sardines
The two supplements are: - Pro-pectalin 1 pill 2x day to keep stools firm - ✙Double P II - 1 pill 2x day to get the blood and chi flowing through the spinal cord.
She also suggested some PT activities. She is in training to be a certified PT that she plans to complete before the end of the summer, if COVID allows!
Dr. Natalie says she has seen many dogs in a similar situation to Tex that benefit from all of these!
Here's to hope for Tex!
Please God let him not be in pain, most importantly. Please God let his tail wag again and if at all possible, let him poop and pee on his own. Of course, walking would be fabulous too!
However he is, we will get through this! We will! He is home and alive! =)
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