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Post by Amber & Peanut on May 26, 2020 9:25:16 GMT -7
Peanut is a beagle and Italian Greyhound mix. He weighs 16 points [?]. He showed signs of pain beginning of the weekend of May 15th. We didn't know what it was and it was so random we thought he must have walked into something. By Wednesday, May 20th the yelping and screeching became more frequent. His back was bowed a little and showed major signs of discomfort.
Took him to the vet on May 22nd. The DVM took Xrays. Some of his spine was bone on bone, but he said that the pain seems to be coming from the neck. He yelped when they tried to take xrays of the neck.
[Moderator's Note. Please do not edit 16 pounds true conservative started 5/26? Prednisone as of 5/22: 5mgs 2x/day for 3 days. Negated due to no crate rest as of 5/26: ?mg ?x/day for ? days, then test for pain taper methocarbamol 125mgs 3x/day tramadol 25mgs 3x/day needs GI tract protector, Pepcid AC, on board w/prednisone! ]
Peanut was prescribed Predisone-1 tablet 5mg every 12 hours for 3 days (It's been tapered per the prescription to 1 tablet daily for 4 days); Methocarbamol-1/4 500mg every 8 hours; and tramadol 1/2 50 mg every 8 hours. We were told to restrict his movements, but weren't specifically told crate rest although at this point I've done alot of reading online so that's what we've been doing. He is still in pain even after the dosage of pills. He's shivering, trembling, drooling [nausea], panting, yelps when moved or picked up and yelps randomly and every muscle in his body is consistently tense even with the meds. He has a wobbly walk but wags his tail when happy which isn't often. He is peeing and pooing. He has stopped eating and drinking [pain or nausea]. I give him water through a dropper.
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PaulaM
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Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,493
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Post by PaulaM on May 26, 2020 9:52:03 GMT -7
Amber, welcome!! You and your vet have the answer from the test for pain prednisone taper. With pain that alerts your vet right away there is still swelling and to get back up to the original Prednisone 5mgs 2x/day to continue working on swelling. It can take 7-30 days to get that swelling down (excluding any taper days). Call the vet now. Advocate for proper aggressive pain med approach of three different meds each dealing with a differing kind of pain. All pain meds should be given every 8 hrs promptly: 1) Tramadol at an aggressive dose of: Plumb's is considered the "drug bible" of the veterinary world. 2) Add in gabapentin for nerve pain - every 8 hrs. 3) Methocarbamol is right on target! 125mgs every 8 hrs. 4) STOMACH PROTECTION immediatelynot eating can be pain and it can be due to prednisone damage. Take no chances get Pepcid AC on board asap. Proactive vets don’t wait til there is lip licking of nausea, not eating, vomit, diarrhea leading to serious bleeding ulcers, red or black blood in stool due to the extra stomach acids anti-inflammatory drugs cause. Pepcid AC (famotidine) blocks the production of acid. The usual dose of Pepcid AC (famotidine) with a disc episode is 0.44mg mg per pound every 12 hours. Pepcid AC has a very limited potential for side effects. Ask if your dog has any health issues to prevent use of Pepcid AC (famotidine)? (doesn’t need it, we wait til there is problem…are NOT answers to your question!) If you get a “no health” issues answer, then go to the grocery store to purchase over the counter Pepcid AC containing one single active ingredient (famotidine).
READ about HEALTH ISSUES: “Mar Vista Vet reports: Pepcid AC has a very limited potential for side effects, the reason of release to over-the-counter status. The dose of famotidine may require reduction in patients with liver or kidney disease as these diseases tend to prolong drug activities. There have been some reports of exacerbating heart rhythm problems in patients who already have heart rhythm problems so it may be prudent to choose another means of stomach acid control in heart patients.” marvistavet.com/famotidine.pml Let us know when the meds (prednisone, pepcid Ac and pain meds) are on board. We are heartbroken that your dog is needlessly suffering with pain. How much does your dog weigh in pounds?
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Post by Amber & Peanut on May 26, 2020 10:17:35 GMT -7
Thank you for the quick reply.
I will definitely get with the vet regarding the meds. He said he isn't a fan of the Tramadol due to blood test studies. He said, "it's a take it or leave it drug." He was recently on predisone for pneumonia so I have some left over famotidine. I also give that to him because he has intermittent bouts of random vomiting at times. I give him 1/2 of 20 mg 1 time a day normally. I will start incorporating that into his system now.
He weighs 16 pounds.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,493
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Post by PaulaM on May 26, 2020 10:21:39 GMT -7
Advocate STRONGLY to get up at the max analgesic dose of tramadol. What does that hurt to try. The current 25mgs 3x/day is not max analgesic dose and not likely to work on pain. Neck disc are just more painful. Your dog needs a multi modal pain med approach-- addressing EACH kind of pain. Hope you get thru on the phone soonest and get Peanut back round the clock dose to dose full comfort form pain. Here are the extras you can do to help with a neck disc. www.dodgerslist.com/literature/cervical.htm
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Post by Amber & Peanut on May 26, 2020 11:11:49 GMT -7
Do you have any thoughts on braces?
Yes, I apologize. He weighs 16 pounds.
[Moderator's Note. Please do not edit 16 pounds true conservative started 5/26? Prednisone as of 5/22: 5mgs 2x/day for 3 days. Negated due to no crate rest as of 5/26: ?mg ?x/day for ? days, then test for pain taper methocarbamol 125mgs 3x/day tramadol 25mgs 3x/day ✙famotidine 10mgs 1x/day ]
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PaulaM
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Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,493
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Post by PaulaM on May 26, 2020 11:21:25 GMT -7
What is the status on getting in touch with vet via phone call to get meds adjusted? Our treasure trove of IVDD information is housed on our web page. We frequently give links to pertinent articles. Hoping as things settle you will find it easy to search for many topics of interest to you. I searched using the term "braces" at www.dodgerslist.comHere is the direct link to braces and why not: 1) Neuro surgeon from the Dodgerslist Neuro Corner answers: www.dodgerslist.com/neurocorner2/backbraces.htm2) Article on things that can be an issue with an IVDD dog including braces: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/Supplements.htmSince he is 16 pounds then famotidine is 5mgs every 12 hours. please confirm you are using 5mgs every 12 hrs.
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Post by Amber & Peanut on Jun 1, 2020 13:50:33 GMT -7
I had some technical difficulties with internet and have resulted using my phone. It’s been hectic lately. I called the vet and they said there was nothing else they could do for him. They recommended a specialist. I can’t exactly afford that. I called around and the cost just to see him was $200 average.
I found another vet and took him there. They were able to get him in right away since he was in so much pain. They gave him more of the same meds. Prednisone 5mg with no tapering, methocarbomol 500 mg 1/2 to 1 pill every 12 hours, tramadol 50mg 1/2 to 1 every 12 hours. I’ve been giving him the famotidine 20mg 1/4 every 12 hours.
[Moderator's Note. Please do not edit 16 pounds true conservative started 5/26? Prednisone as of 5/22: 5mgs 2x/day for 3 days. Negated due to no crate rest as of 5/29: 5mg 2x/day for 7 days, then FRI 6/5 taper test for _pain
methocarbamol ▲500mgs ▼2x/day tramadol ▲50mgs ▼2x/day famotidine 10mgs 2x/day ]
as of 5/29: 5mg 2x/day for 7 days, then 6/5 taper test for _pain
They also started laser therapy. He had his 2nd appointment today. He’s now eating and drinking. He has pain periodically. I’ve noticed that he yelps a lot when he leans against the crate to lay down. It puts pressure on his back it seems. There has been improvements. He doesn’t hunch his back as much as before and he seems happier. He wags his tail more often.
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PaulaM
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Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,493
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Post by PaulaM on Jun 1, 2020 14:09:11 GMT -7
Amber please let us know exactly which you give. What is the mgs of a whole tablet
For how many days are you to give pred before it tapers? How many times day do you give Pred 5mgs? What DATE did was the pred Rx'd by the new vet?
Prednisone as of 5/22: 5mgs 2x/day for 3 days. Negated due to no crate rest as of date?: 5mg ?x/day for ? days, then test for pain taper methocarbamol 250mgs or 500mgs ▼2x/day WHICH exactly given? tramadol 25mgs or 50mgs ▼2x/day WHICH exactly given?
When we find out the details of the meds we'll be best able to explain how to advocate. Now all that can be said is that the pain meds and maybe the pred is not yet correctly prescribed. Vet needs to know about the pain so he can adjust to every 8 hours promptly on the pain meds.
Not sure about the pred til we know more.
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Post by Amber & Peanut on Jun 1, 2020 14:16:54 GMT -7
As of 5/29 Predisone 5 mg 1 tablet every 12 hours to taper on 6/5 to 1 tablet 1 time a day Methocarbamol 500 mg 1/2 to 1 tablet every 12 hours tramadol 50 mg 1/2 to 1 tablet every 12 hours famotidine 20 mg 1/2 tablet every 12 hours
I started with the following: predisone 5mg 1 tablet every 12 hours. Still doing that Methocarbamol 500 mg 1/2 every 12 hours tramadol 50 mg 1/2 every 12 hours famotidine 20 mg 1/2 tablet every 12 hours. Still doing that
I am now doing the following due to continued pain: prednisone still the same Methocarbamol 500 mg 1 table every 12 hours tramadol 50 mg 1 table every 12 hours famotidine still the same
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,493
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Post by PaulaM on Jun 1, 2020 14:59:22 GMT -7
Amber see if you can advocate for : The pain meds dosed promptly every 8 hrs to keep the meds more level in the body. Methocarbamol at 500 mgs is quite high a dose. Is peanut finding it hard to control his muscles and that is why he must lean again the crate side to lower himself? ADVOCATE for the more usual of 125mgs (1/4 of of a 500mgs tablet) given promptly every 8 hrs. Methocarbamol (Roboxin) Initially, methocarbamol is dosed at 7 to 20 mg per pound (15 to 44 mg/kg) up to three times daily. The dose of methocarbamol should not exceed 150 mg per pound (300 mg/kg) per day.www.petplace.com/article/drug-library/drug-library/library/methocarbamol-robaxin-v-for-dogs-and-cats/ By Dr. Dawn Ruben. August 2015. Tramadol also every 8 hrs for a 16lbs/7.26 kg dogPlumb's is considered the "drug bible" of the veterinary world. Tramadol dosing in dogs varies, ranging from 2 to 5 mg/kg every 8-12 hours. The highest dose for maximum analgesic effect in dogs is 10 mg/kg every 8 hours. “Tramadol”. Plumb DC. In Plumb DC (ed): Plumb’s Veterinary Drug Handbook, 7th ed—Ames: Wiley-Blackwell, 2011, pp 1002-1004. Veterinary pharmacologist Bruce KuKanich, DVM, PhD, DACVCP: "Tramadol is rapidly eliminated from dogs after oral administration. Recent studies are suggestive the bioavailability of tramadol in dogs is lower than originally determined and the dose of tramadol needs to be increased with dosages from 5 - 10 mg/kg PO q 8-12 hours in dogs to maintain similar plasma drug concentrations as those in humans." New developments in opioids: old drugs and some future directions (Proceedings)" DVM360. Nov 01, 2009 By Butch KuKanich, DVM, PhD, DACVCP veterinarycalendar.dvm360.com/new-developments-opioids-old-drugs-and-some-future-directions-proceedings Last accessed 3/18/16
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Post by Amber & Peanut on Jun 9, 2020 12:35:06 GMT -7
I heard the worst five letter word that I never expected to hear Friday, June 5th. How could a 3 and a half year old pup have cancer...a tumor?? Looking back, I guess I could see the signs but from the beginning he didn't get the help he needed. And I tried; I really did. The first vet didn't do much. Gave him 1/4 of 5 mg of prednisone to be given twice a day. What is that little bit going to do?! At the time, he wasn't in too much pain, not what he would end up feeling anyway. The next vet gave up on him. He said there was nothing else they could do. Meanwhile, Peanut was at home trembling, panting and periodically yelping. I had no idea how to help him. I searched for another vet. They were great. They got us in right away. They gave more meds. Obviously, the dosage was pretty high. The medication, at first, helped with his pain. They even started laser therapy, which seemed to really work. Friday, June 5th at 1:30am Peanut woke up in pain. It was obvious that the pain had gotten worse and the meds weren't quite working like they were before. I kept him in his crate thinking that was the best I could do. That's what I was supposed to do. Afterall, he was diagnosed with IVDD. So I laid down on the floor with him and just pet him for hours until he was calm and sleeping. The look in his eyes is something I will never forget. He just looked at me with those puppy eyes telling me that he was tired and in pain. I kept telling him that I would fix it. I would help get him better. That's when he started getting the worst foul smelling diarrhea. I changed his bedding at least 6 times before his vet appointment that afternoon. When it was time to take him to his appointment, we waited and waited. They had an emergency that came in. They eventually took him back for xrays to see what was going on. They brought him back but didn't give him the laser treatment. Then the vet walked in with the results. She took so many xrays. She showed us the deterioration of his spine and said, "I don't know how he's still walking." But how can that be if I did everything I was supposed to be doing? I crated him 24/7. We carried him outside so he could do his business and then straight back to his crate. We made the tough decision to end his suffering. There was no getting better from that point. So now I have more medications than a pharmacy and my heart left in pieces. I've done a little bit of research. The odds of a small dog having a spinal tumor are very small. The odds of a small dog under the age of 7 having a spinal tumor are even smaller unless it metastasized. Anyway, it's taken me a few days to get the courage to send this to you. It's still hard to talk about. But I wanted to thank you for your help in trying to get me to advocate for my little boy. Up to that point, I just assumed the veterinarian did what they were supposed to and knew what they were doing. That is far from the truth and I appreciate you shedding light on that subject. I wish all the best for every pup going through the IVDD process.
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Post by Romy & Frankie on Jun 9, 2020 13:06:33 GMT -7
I am so very sorry to hear this, Amber. You did everything you could for him. Please accept my condolences.
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Post by Amber & Peanut on Jun 9, 2020 13:22:07 GMT -7
Thank you. I truly appreciate that.
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PaulaM
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Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,493
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Post by PaulaM on Jun 9, 2020 19:16:22 GMT -7
Amber my heart is so heavy to hear this news. It is so hard to loose them. No matter when they go, it is always too short of time with us. He'll always be alive and by your side in your mind and heart.
Warmest of ((hugs)) and my sincere condolences to you.
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Marjorie
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Post by Marjorie on Jun 10, 2020 3:44:32 GMT -7
I'm so very sorry to hear this, Amber. My sincerest condolences.
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Post by Diane & Bugs on Jun 17, 2020 19:36:00 GMT -7
Dear sweet amber, I am so very sorry about your baby. YOU DID THE RIGHT THING, he suffers NO LONGER. I was in the same position a year ago with a 9yr old Havanese I made the decision same day to euthanize. It haunts me but I KNOW He is no longer suffering and I will see my dear Derby again one day. God Bless you, Diane
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