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Post by Kit on Mar 5, 2020 9:53:38 GMT -7
[Original subject line: Turco's IVDD] Hi Everyone! My little girl went from discomfort/pain to losing mobility in her hind legs (only having deep pain) in a matter of 48 hours. Since then, she has been able to get some mobility in her legs but has been yelping [pain!] and showing aggression [pain!] when picked up once a day. Any suggestions and tips will help. I'm so terrified to be bitten from trying to get her to and from her potty spot each time, but i'm even more terrified that she is in pain. i have her on crate rest and medication right now. ☆ 1 pain? sometimes yelp when picked up or moved , can’t find a comfortable position at times. She didn't seem to have an issued when she was on prednisone 2x a day☆ 2 17lbs Sucralfate 1 hr before Prednisone Prednisone 5mg 2x a day from 2/27- 3/2 5mg 1x a day [test for pain taper dose] since 3/3 Gabapentnin 100mg 2 x a day since 2/27 Methocarbamol 1/2-500mg 2x a day since 2/27 Prilosec 10mg 1x a day since 2/27 [Moderator's Note. Please do not edit 17lbs Prednisone as of 2/27: 5mgs 2x/day for 5 day course, 3/3 taper test for √ 3/3! pain gabapentin 100mgs 2x/day methocarbamol 250mgs 2x/day prilosec 10mgs 1x/day sucralfate : 500 mgs 2x/day]☆ 3 -- Eating after being enticed with wet food / hand feeding, Drinking Ok, Pooping ok , Peeing ok ☆ 4 Turco is a 5 yr old Chiweenie ☆ 5 General Vet gave me reading on IVDD. She suspect there being a disturbed nerve. Have an appointment to see a neurologist on 3/15. ☆ 6 What was the date you saw the vet for CONSERVATIVE treatment?2/27☆ 7 She has bladder control and able to do a slight squat to release urine. ☆ 8 She can wag tail, stand for a short amount of time, take a couple steps. Can sometimes reset paw knuckles
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,493
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Post by PaulaM on Mar 5, 2020 10:11:49 GMT -7
Hi, my name is Paula. What's yours...Kit? ALERT your vet ASAP today on the phone The reduction (tapering of prednisone) is a test to see if painful swelling still exists. CLEARLY not all the painful swelling has been resolved.. The pred taper test clearly tells you and the vet it is time to get back up to the anti-inflammatory level of prednisone (5mgs 2x/day) for another course of maybe 7 or 14 days and then try another test for pain taper. Taper doses of pred do not work on getting swelling resolved. You can quickly get up to speed on the use of prednisone during a disc episode so you are best prepared to monitor things, discuss things with your vet. Important reading at this LINK: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingsweling.htmThe reason for a consult with a neuro can be for several reasons. What is your reason?-- when your local DVM is reluctant to use meds for round the clock, dose to does full pain relief, theb a neuro has much more experience and can quickly get the med right for Turco. -- when significan neuro deterioration of legs paralyzed means deciding which way to go: continue with conservative treatment or do a surgery. ONly a neuro is qualified to tell you when it is time to consider a surgery. You, yourself knowing the predictable step by step order of nerve diminishment means you would best be able to monitor and be researching ahead of time about surgery. As damage to the spinal cord increases, there is a predictable stepwise deterioration of functions. When nerve healing begins, often it follows the reverse order. 1. Pain caused by the tearing disc & inflammation in the spinal cord 2. Wobbly walking, legs cross 3. Nails/toes scuffing floor 4. Turco is here: √ Knuckle but still can right them; Paws knuckle under always 5. Weak/little leg movement, can't move up into a stand 6. Legs do not work at all (paralysis, dog is down) 7. Bladder control is lost. Leaks on you when lifted. Can no longer sniff and then pee on that old urine spot outdoors. 8. Tail wagging with joy is lost 9. Deep pain sensation, the last neuro function, a critical indicator for nerves to be able to self heal after surgery or with conservative treatment. If surgery is not an option (for whatever reason) then the best option is conservative therapy. Surgery can still be successful in the window of 12-24 hours after loss of deep pain sensation. Even after that window of time, there can still be a good outcome. Each hour that passes decreases that chance. Precious hours can be lost with a vet that gets DPS wrong. Trust only the word of a neuro (ACVIM) or ortho (ACVS) surgeon about DPS. So if surgery is an option for your family get to a neuro or ortho asap. IMPORTANT for you. A quick overview of conservative treatment vs. a surgery: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingsurgery.htm#surgeryVSconservativeTIME MATTERS to get pred back on board.Please do update us as soon as via phone you were successful in advocating for another 7- or 14-day course of Prednisone at the anti-inflammatory level 5mgs every 12 hrs.
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Post by Kit on Mar 5, 2020 10:52:57 GMT -7
Hi! my name is Kit and thank you so much for your reply! I have left a message with my vet about wanting to keep her on the 2x a day dosage. She takes 1/2 pill = 500mg of sucralfate before each steroid.
Is it normal to stay on Prednisone for 7 to 14 days + the 5 days she was already on it? Or is this an indication that she's in pretty bad shape? At what point with taking prednisone should i consider surgery? i understand she shouldnt be on prednisone long term.
She was doing so good on the 2x a day. She was eating, she was so peaceful when she was resting, looked sturdy when standing, and no signs of pain/aggression when i picked her up.
I also want to add that we get her an xray and it showed two spots in which her spine was spaced closer than usual.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,493
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Post by PaulaM on Mar 5, 2020 11:00:01 GMT -7
Kit, as soon as you can begin reading, I encourage you to become the IVDD saavy pet parent Turco will need now during this disc episode and in the future living many happy years ahead. From the Link provided www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingsweling.htmPlease when you are able learn all the details about prednisone as used with a disc episode. No reason for Turco to suffer with with during a taper when owners are up to speed on IVDD and how to monitor things. This is why we encourage delving in as soon as possible over on our main Dodgerslist website. All of the links we point you are for quickest info access and take you to www.Dodgerlist.com web site. QUESTIONs when things have settles and Turco is out of pain, your answer help us understand things and be of best help to you and Turco. What is your reason for a neuro consult?-- when your local DVM is reluctant to use meds for round the clock, dose to does full pain relief, theb a neuro has much more experience and can quickly get the med right for Turco. -- when significan neuro deterioration of legs paralyzed means deciding which way to go: continue with conservative treatment or do a surgery. ONly a neuro is qualified to tell you when it is time to consider a surgery. You, yourself knowing the predictable step by step order of nerve diminishment means you would best be able to monitor and be researching ahead of time about surgery. The guest board is a temporary Guest courtesy to get immediate help until you can register. I encourage you to register and login. That way all the features of the Forum are available to you, making it faster to reply and get an email alert about replies. It also makes is far easier for us to track your dog and give the best assistance. Illustrated what to expect during registration: www.dodgerslist.com/forumads/RegisterFORUM/register.htm
Members can bookmark a thread to receive an email alert when someone has replied
1. Login and go to your Member Profile> Profile Edit > Notifications: checkmark BOOKMARKS + "instant" email 2. Next, go to your dog's Board: checkmark your dog's thread, then use the ACTIONS button to select "bookmark"
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Post by Kit on Mar 17, 2020 2:39:02 GMT -7
Hi! Turco has been tapering her medication, and from a neuropathic/pain perspective, she’s been doing really well! However, she has the occasional throw up (of food or just yellow bile) over the last 2-3 days. Is this something to be concerned with?
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Marjorie
Moderator~
Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,722
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Post by Marjorie on Mar 17, 2020 4:58:01 GMT -7
Do alert your vet of the vomiting ASAP, Kit. Prednisone can cause GI distress that can quickly worsen. Is Turco still taking Sulcrafalte and Prilosec during the taper of the meds? Prilosec can work very well with humans but it's our understanding that it doesn't work as well for dogs. Dodgerslist recommends Pepcid AC (Famotidine) whenever a dog is on Prednisone. The usual dose of Pepcid AC (famotidine) with a disc episode is 0.44mg mg per pound every 12 hours. Pepcid AC has a very limited potential for side effects.
I'm glad to hear that Turco is doing well. Please tell us more about the taper. On what date did the taper of the Prednisone start? Are the Gabapentin and Methocarbamol also being tapered? If there are still pain meds on board, that will make it hard for you to determine if there is still pain/swelling and therefore still a need for the original dosage of Prednisone. It can take 7-30 days for all swelling to resolve.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,493
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Post by PaulaM on Mar 17, 2020 8:16:34 GMT -7
Kit, the questions Majorie asked above educate us about Turco in order to provide the most accurate information to you. Look forward to your answers. There is one more thing that would help us do our job...would you be able to help? The guest board is a temporary Guest courtesy to get immediate help until you can register. I encourage you to register and login. That way all the features of the Forum are available to you, ----making it faster to reply --- get an email alert when someone has posted about Turco --- It also makes is far easier for us to track your Turco and give the best assistance. Illustrated what to expect during registration: www.dodgerslist.com/forumads/RegisterFORUM/register.htm
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Post by Kit on Mar 17, 2020 10:45:19 GMT -7
I will alert the vet and switch her to pepcid AC. Turco's tapering:
Prednisone 1x 5mg in the AM and 1/2x 5mg in the PM from 3/7 to 3/11 3/12, 1/2x 5mg in the AM and 1/2x 5mg in the PM from 3/12 to 3/16 1/2x 5mg in the AM from 3/17 Gabapentnin 100mg 2 x a day from 3/7 to 3/14. 100mg 1 x a day from 3/14. Methocarbamol 1/4x 500mg 1x a day from 3/7 to 3/14. She is completely off it now. Prilosec 5mg every time Prednisone is administered SucralfateNone
[Moderator's Note. Please do not edit 17lbs Prednisone as of 2/27: 5mgs 2x/day for 5 day course, 3/3 taper test for √ 3/3 pain gabapentin 100mgs 1x/day prilosec 10mgs 1x/day]
She has regained full mobility. No yelping or aggression. Willingness to eat and drink. Able to control and eliminate. Tail constantly wagging. Able to reset knuckles.
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Post by Romy & Frankie on Mar 17, 2020 13:11:39 GMT -7
Today is the day that Turco takes another step down on the pred. It sounds as if it is going well. That is good news. I see that the gabapentin has been reduced and the Methocarbamol stopped. This is good because pain is the primary indicator of swelling in the dog's spinal cord. If pain meds are on board masking pain there could still be swelling in the spinal cord, but we wouldn't know. If there was still swelling it would be important for the dog to go back on the full dose of pred and the pain meds.
No further vomiting?
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Post by Kit on Mar 31, 2020 10:32:10 GMT -7
Turco has finished all her medication! She is back to her happy old self. Full mobility, full control of her bowel and bladder, healthy drinking and eating appetite. We have her on crate rest most of of the day minus when she is let out to relieve herself.
We are absolutely relieved that she was able to make a full recovery on conservative treatment. Thank you so much for all your time and help. I cannot express how comforting it is that your team was able to lend your experience and advise during this incredibly frightening time.
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Post by Romy & Frankie on Mar 31, 2020 13:16:20 GMT -7
I am so happy to hear this. Back to her old happy self is just wonderful!
Please stay the course with the rest of the crate rest. Sometimes when our dogs are feeling better they want to start moving. They think they are fine. We pet parents know better. We know that it takes 8 weeks of minimum motion to heal the disc.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,493
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Post by PaulaM on Mar 31, 2020 16:56:27 GMT -7
Kit, wonderful news on Turco getting her nerve functions back. That often does not happen til later, sometimes several months.
What is still healing for Turco is the disc. Disc healing is what conservative treatment is all about
I aggree with Romy to continue on with the STRICT rest except for being out to potty and then just the fewest of footsteps.
Mark your calendar for April 23 graduation day when the disc has healed.
We'll have lots more information to share in how to do a gradual introduction to being allowed physical activity and ideas to make your home back friendly, also.
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