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Post by Trent & Apollo on Feb 6, 2020 7:16:25 GMT -7
[original subject line: Surgery after conservative treatment and general help]
Hi, my dog was on conservative treatment starting on 11-30-2019. He is a french bulldog. This was his second case of ivdd, the first he miraculously started walking about a week later and was fine for about a year. The vet did say he still had deep pain sensation.
He has been prescribed prednisone every 48 hours, methocarbomal every 8-12 hours, and tramadol every 8-12 hours.
[Moderator's Note. Please do not edit 23 lbs prednisone as 11/30: ?mgs 2x/day for 7 days, then a 12/7 test taper to reveal any: _pain / _neuro has been on taper dose since Dec 7 2019 methocarbamol 250mgs 2x/day tramadol 50mgs 2x/day Neuropathic foot surgery about Jan 9th?? needs GI tract protector, Pepcid AC, on board w/prednisone! ]
I think he is incontinent. He pottys on the puppy pads in his rest area, and will also pee and sometimes poop when he gets excited. He has been wearing a cone for a few weeks maybe a month now because he chewed one of his toes off [neuropathy] on his foot and it needed to be stitched and bandaged. It has almost fully recovered but im scared to not keep the cone on him for fear that he will chew his foot off completely because he still licks it when the cone is off during meal time.
It has been almost 10 weeks since he was diagnosed and started his medication. We did 8 weeks of confined crate rest
and he lost a lot of if not most of the muscle in his back legs and rear area. In the last week we have started doing physical therapy at home (basic range of motions) along with massages and some hydrotherapy. When hes in the bathtub his butt is lifted and his paws are underneath him like they should be. The water is usually up to his chest and i also do the basic range of motion with his legs in there also. He lifts his butt up frequently, but i don't think hes using his legs to do it. I have for the last week made sure to put his paws on the ground as often as i see that they're not.
He knuckles over and drags his legs when he moves around. I have seen improvements in his legs being underneath him more (he will kind of turn or twist so they're underneath him). When his paws are on the ground correctly and he tries to move he lifts his butt up and looks as if hes trying to walk normally and then starts dragging his legs again. We were hopeful that with conservative treatment he would walk again because again the first time it happened he was walking again within a week. I would love some recommendations of things i can do to hopefully help him improve and start walking again, and if the things i listed are signs of improvement or not. I also would like to know if surgery is still an option for him. If i could somehow get the money to afford it in the next couple of months would that help him at all. Surgery 5-6 months after initial diagnosis. He didn't have an mri done because it was 1800$ and my family couldn't afford it at the time. The vet did at the time of diagnosis recommend someone a state away, but like i said we were hopeful he would be fine without surgery. Thank you so much.
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PaulaM
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Post by PaulaM on Feb 6, 2020 8:45:06 GMT -7
Welcome to the Forum. Is Trent your name or your dog's? Could you clarify a few things so comments do not go in the wrong direction. -- Is your Frenchie currently still on prednisone, methocarbamol and tramadol? If yes, what is the reason? Please fill in the details for each med re: mgs per dose and how often you actually give each med (2 times a day (every 12 hrs) , 3 times a day every 8 hrs. -- Why is your dog not on gabapentin for his neuropathy since he still has those abnormal feelings in his paws that caused him to chew at them? -- on the pee pads does he sniff, circle and then release urine (that is bladder control) OR does he leak urine on you when lifted (that is lack of bladder control/incontinence)? Since your dog is not currently suffering with a disc episode, there would be no reason to have a surgery nor no reason to do another 8 weeks of conservative treatment. Learn more about when a surgery or when conservative treatment is used: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingsurgery.htm
I'll await your answers so I know best how to offer you suggestions.
Suggestions: -- Registering has opened up the handy feature of getting an email alert a reply has been posted! 1. Go to your Profile> Profile Edit > Notifications: checkmark BOOKMARKS + "instant" email 2. Next, go to the GRADUATES Board: checkmark your dog's thread, then use the ACTIONS button to select "bookmark" **
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Post by Trent & Apollo on Feb 6, 2020 9:00:24 GMT -7
Yes trent is my name. Apollo is my frenchies name. Yes he is still currently on prednisone, methocarbamol, and tramadol. Prednisone is 5mg given every other day. Methocarbomal is 500mg but only given half a tablet, and thats every 12 hours. Tramadol is 50mg every 8 hours. The vet hasnt told us to taper him off of the medications that hes on. His foot is still healing and theres just some scabs and red areas left. The vet as far as i can remember did not mention gabapentin at all. Also yes he does pee when i pick him up sometimes.
So surgery for him now after the conservative treatment rest would not give him a better chance at being able to walk again?
His meds schedule looks like this: 3 am Tramadol (half a pill) 7 am Methocarbomal (half a pill) and Prednisone 11 am Tramadol (half a pill) 7 Pm Tramadol (half a pill) and Methocarbomal (half a pill)
The only change in the schedule is the prednisone which is every other day.
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PaulaM
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Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
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Post by PaulaM on Feb 6, 2020 9:35:04 GMT -7
A dog is not supposed to be out of 8 weeks crate rest until it has been proven that all painful swellingis really gone. --- Why is he still on pain meds and just now doing the prednisone taper test for pain?
Correct, a surgery nor another conservative treatment would not be used at this point in time. Those two treatments are only used at the beginning of a disc episode to decompress the spinal cord. - Surgery seeks to remove offending disc material and thus decompress the spinal cord. The body self heals the nerves. - Conservative seeks via medications to relieve pressure to the spinal cord by resolving all painful inflammation around the cord and with time disc material to be reabsorbed or shrink back from the spinal cord area. There are no meds that will heal nerves, the body does that itself.
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Post by Trent & Apollo on Feb 6, 2020 9:40:34 GMT -7
Yes ive read that. He was on strict confined crate rest for about 9 weeks. He is still on his medication i think because of what happened with him chewing off one of his toes on his foot. I just now started doing physical therapy at home and hydrotherapy in this last week. Should i take him to the vet and see what they have to say about tapering him off of his medications? Also im scared if i remove the cone from him that he will start to chew on his foot again and chew it off. I have no idea what im supposed to do. He finished his 8 weeks of crate rest and hes still on his medications. I'm very confused.
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PaulaM
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Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
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Post by PaulaM on Feb 6, 2020 9:45:46 GMT -7
Trent, trying to figure out why Apollo appears to be off crate rest BEFORE there is proof all inflammed tissue near the cord is really gone. How much does Apollo weigh? What date did prednisone start 10 weeks ago? How many mgs was that original dose? Was it given 2x/day? What date did the prednisone reduction/taper start? Was there more than one pred taper attempted? This is how prednisone is used during a disc episode and why why you report is so confusing: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingsweling.htmSo the rule of thumb with predinsone is: Pain= another course of pred + all pain meds back on board + Pepcid AC No Pain= finish the pred taper. . finish out the 8 weeks of crate rest for the disc to heal.
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Post by Trent & Apollo on Feb 6, 2020 9:48:11 GMT -7
He has his prednisone every other day and has been for a few weeks maybe a month (until all gone) it says, and then my mom goes and picks it up and it says the same thing. The same for his muscle relaxer and pain reliever. They just refill the prescription.
Is it good that he is trying to lift his butt up and is that a sign of improvement? Also now that the 8 weeks are up should i allow him to move around my room and see if he will attempt to walk? I suffer from anxiety and depression so it has been extremely hard for me, and is hard for me to go into a public setting like a vet office but i will for him. Many restless nights, many nights crying, blaming myself, etc.. Could you explain to me what to do please.
He weighed 23 pounds at the time of his foot surgery about a month ago. Prednisone started on 11-30-19. I cant remember the exact dose it was originally. I think it was given twice daily for a week then once daily and then every other day i think, and it has been that way since. I havent been to the vet since they removed his stitches in his foot a few weeks ago. They didnt mention taking him off any of his medications, and when theyre out my mom has just been picking them back up from the vet.
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PaulaM
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Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
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Post by PaulaM on Feb 6, 2020 10:01:30 GMT -7
Trent, call your vet and ask that either his pain-masking pain meds be backed off down OR fully stopped (that is a vet's decision). When is the last dose of every other day pred scheduled for? Since the neuropathy incident happend 4 weeks ago, by now the foot should be well healed. There may be it sound like still some abnormal pain sensations. Do ask that the med that deals with neuropathy (gabapentin) be prescribed. --- tramadol is a general overal analgesic--- does not address nerve pain --- methocarbamol is for muscle spasm pain --- does not address nerve pain All of the pain meds stay in the system a short time. At the 8 hr mark they decline and likely are not addressing pain (but you don't even know if there is actually disc related pain because the pain meds were never backed off or full stopped on the date of the pred reduction/taper. Seems that should now be done. Separate issue is the neuropathy that never was treated to reduce that kind of pain-- gabapentin. You can do the necessary homework as should be done for all meds your dog takes at the Mar Vista Veterinary drug look up Here is their direct link to gabapentin: www.marvistavet.com/gabapentin.pmlEveryone has experienced numbness or pins and needles tingling in your legs when sitting in a bad position for too long a time. Your dog can be feeling abnormal nerve sensations that are mild pins and needles to quite painful burning, on-fire feeling that makes them bite to stop the pain. These are abnormal signals explaining why a paralyzed dog can feel this neuropathic pain. More on this topic: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/neuropathy.pdf
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Post by Trent & Apollo on Feb 6, 2020 10:17:17 GMT -7
He has an appointment to be seen on the 11th and i will discuss all of that with her then. I had no idea when he was supposed to be tapered off of his medications, and my mom picks them up when theyre out.
So i should have him back on crate rest until he can be seen by the vet on the 11th? I have noticed that one of his feet was shaking for a few seconds the other night, and i assumed was a good thing that meant that he could feel his feet.
I thought he was doing better because of him moving his butt up and what to me looked like an attempt to stand up. I have watched so many videos and read so much about ivdd and conservative treatment, but i guess not enough.
I assumed after his 8 weeks (9 in his care) of crate rest that i would be able to start doing range of motion exercises for him, massaging, water therapy, etc. I didnt know he was supposed to be tapered off of his meds, and checked by the vet again before i could start any of that. Now i fear ive made it even worse when i thought i was helping and seeing signs of improvement. I will discuss all of this with the vet. Im sorry for wasting your time.
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PaulaM
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Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
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Post by PaulaM on Feb 6, 2020 10:26:13 GMT -7
Trent do you feel you can do a good job of advocating over the phone with your vet? This really does not require a trip into the vet's office to see about getting Apollo off of prednisone and the methocarbamol and tramadol. There are no safe medicines. There are good medicines with side effects WHEN there is actually something for the meds to work on. When nothing to work on all that happens is Apollo is exposed to their serious side effects. Advocate for prednisone to be NOW (today) fully stopped since he has been doing every other day now for many weeks (4 or more weeks)? As you can see without specifics of dates, doses in mgs and frequency given, it is a challenge to fully understand things. We LOVE exact details! LOL Next adovcate for gabapnetin to help with the pain of neuropathy. You are reporting to us that Apollo is still focusing on his back legs by the licking there. Neuropathy can eventually just go away. So for now whenever you are not at home with Apollo he will need to wear the cone. At some point you and the vet might be able to reduce gabapentin down from every 8 hrs to 2x/day, then 1x/day while observing if there is anymore attention to the back legs going on. In other words has neuropathy at some point just gone away. Gabapentin does not cure neuropathy, it helps to quell the pain of it. Trying to lift his butt off the ground is a very good sign of nerve healing taking place! AT HOME PT Therapy Once off of prednisone (today hopefully) and off of the methocarbamol and the tramadol, then begin an active program of gradually increasing his exercises. --- Use a rear end sling for sling walking PT on carpeted areas where Apollo has some traction. See if his back legs will move in a walking motion. If he's not yet there with his nerve healing, then bathtub water therapy is good. More details on water theraphy: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/watertherapy.htm along with using the same principals as are used in underwater treadmill PT— look for that video on the same page to watch for ideas.
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PaulaM
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Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
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Post by PaulaM on Feb 6, 2020 10:35:39 GMT -7
Trent you have not wasted anyone's time. You are not the blame. It is a vet who is likley not up to speed on IVDD and use of meds. And then the neuropathy thing happened. All adding to confusion for you. We are very, very glad you and Apollo are here.
Trent you have not made anything worse. It is just a good idea to know for sure if all painful inflammation is really gone. Before starting a good deal of physical moving around. Chances are all the inflammed tissue is fixed.... with the stop of every other day pred (hopefully today with a phone call by you into the vet) and the full stop of the two pain meds or a reduction to them you will finally have proof.
Today, also in that phone call, advocate for an Rx for gabapentin. Describe to the vet what you observe regarding his licking/obsessing his back paw, or any other part of his lower body. Ask what would it hurt to do a trial course of gabapentin to see if he gets some relief?
I do think you will see some more neuro improvement with time. You love for Apollo signs through in your posts. You both will do fine and be able to proceed with a good program of PT. Keep us posted on what the vet says.
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Post by Trent & Apollo on Feb 6, 2020 10:50:03 GMT -7
Thank you for your input and information. My mom said he already had an appointment scheduled for the 11th and that the vet DID mention Apollo maybe being put on gabapentin, and also something to relax his stomach if he needed it. I must of not heard her say it personally. (Hes been eating, drinking, and defecating normally, diarrhea a couple of times but we think it was the treats we gave him.)
She said because of the set back of him chewing part of his foot and toe off and needing some of it to be amputated and stitched and healed that that's probably the reason the vet extended his appointment and medications. His foot was healing slowly (we had to wait an extra 4 days for stitches to be removed), and after the stitches were removed we had to keep it wrapped for a while because of his incontinence and scabs being pulled off.
I will talk to the vet about all of this and also prescribing him the gabapentin. She had mentioned when he got his stitches out that i could massage and pull his leg some and see if he will pull it back (he isnt able to yet). I have seen him twitch his toes or his foot when massaging his feet and toes. He doesnt like for massage his legs much, but he has always been a stubborn dog, and will and has done what he wanted to do as far as being touched or not. Hes extremely loving but when he wants to be left alone he will try to move away which hes always done. I will ask her about all the other physical therapy things also, and we will ask about accupuncture and laser treatments and if they provide them there or not and where we can be referred to. I ordered a chest harness and "Gingerlead dog support and rehabilitation harness" for his sling walking, and they should be here today.
Also with him lifting his butt off the ground it looks like he is using his spine or his butt to do it because he will lift his butt and legs all the way off the ground sometimes before setting them down. Not exactly using his legs to lift up off the ground with, but i have seen him have his legs on the ground and somewhat lift his butt up and down a few times slightly off the ground. Is that still a good sign? Also thank you so much for your quick replies and help. My dog means the world to me and ive been struggling a lot.
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PaulaM
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Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
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Post by PaulaM on Feb 6, 2020 11:40:53 GMT -7
Trent, if you believe you have the ability doing this over the phone today, all the better. If speaking in person to the vet is better for you then, it will need to wait til the Feb 11th appt. Vet's take phone updates all the time and adjust meds too. If Apollo is really incontinent, then manually expressing the bladder would be needed to keep a bladder infection from developing. Can you confirm if Apollo has bladder control or if he is incontinent (lacks bladder control)? The only way for humans to know if there is bladder control is with the “sniff and pee test.” When you know he should have to pee, carry him outdoors. Set Apollo an old pee spot to sniff (you could do the test on a pee pad outside of his crate) Make sure the sling or your hands are not on the tummy area as that can press on the bladder. See if he will release urine on the old urine area. If urine comes out after sniffing, he has bladder control. The Gingerlead will be a very handy thing for doing those PT sling walks. For us humans to be able to distinguish between reflex and brain directed, we have to see some sort of head level involvement with the tail, with a limb or with release of urine so we know the movement was done with purposeful thinking. --- Sniff (head level nose) then release of urine would be brain directed. --- Hear (head level ear) you doing some happy talk and then tail wags is brain directed. Tail movement during potty time can often be a reflex --- Itchy sensation at at neck and then tries to scratch would be purposeful movement. Tickling paws, pulling on a leg, etc. can cause reflex leg movements. When nerve healing begins, often it follows the reverse order of the nerve damage. 1. Deep pain sensation, the first neuro function to return. It is critical indicator for nerves to be able to self heal after surgery or with conservative treatment. Only take the word of a neuro (ACVIM) or ortho (ACVS) for this very tricky to identify neuro function. 2. Joyful tail wags after specifically seeing you return, some happy talk or getting a treat. 3. Bladder control begins to return verified with the "sniff and pee" test. 4. Small leg movements. Such as trying to use them to reposition when lying down. Trying to scratch and itch 5. √ Attempting to move up into a stand. owner reported 2/6/2020 6. Wobbly weak walking 7. Paws knuckle under less and less 8. Stronger more steading walking 9 Ability to walk unassisted and perhaps even run More info: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingnerves.htm
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PaulaM
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Post by PaulaM on Feb 6, 2020 11:44:37 GMT -7
Trent with you reporting seeing his back legs attempting to move the butt upwards, I believe the best expenditure of money will be checking if your area has underwater treadmill. Sure if you have plenty of $$, then go ahead and add in acupunture or laser. Here is the why of underwater treadmill: The movement of the hip joints and muscles and the changes in pressure on the paws from the underwater treadmill triggers spinal cord communication with the brain. Water bouyancy makes it easier than leg movements against gravity. There is not only the potential to regrow damaged neuronal pathyways but also for neuron to muscle re-education to learn the art of walking again.
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Post by Trent & Apollo on Feb 6, 2020 12:24:50 GMT -7
Its hard for me to say. We have been keeping puppy pads in his rest area along with one on his bed. I have noticed that theres less and less pee and rarely poop in his bed. It is mostly on the puppy pads that are in front of the rest area. He does pee some when he is picked up or when someone comes into my room and he gets excited and will also poop a lot of the time. We have XL puppy pads and dog wipes and have kept him clean. I'm not currently able to take him outside because its storming where i live and very wet so i wouldnt be able to see if he had peed or not. I have tried to express his bladder for him but even when his stomach feels full a lot of the time he wont pee unless i push decently hardly. He is a French bulldog so he doesnt have a tail that has ever moved. When i go to give him a treat he tries to hop on his butt like jumping up and down on his butt which i try to not let him do. I have seen his leg shake once and also when i reposition his legs sometimes he will twitch them so im not sure if thats what you mean by moving them. When he gets in bed he will usually drag his legs and once in the bed he will wiggle around and i THINK try to use his back legs to move around in the bed to position like how dogs will go in circles until comfortable.
He was mostly sitting on his anus and tail, but since ive been positioning his feet how theyre supposed to be he will kinda move his body around to position them underneath him but i dont think hes using his actual feet to pull them under him if that makes sense.
He can feel his legs as far as i know. When doing massages or when hes laying in bed if i touch his leg or pet it he will turn and look at me. I dont know if thats a good sign or not or if that has anything to do with what youre saying.
Like just now i got up to go to the kitchen and he hopped out of bed (he doesnt like being alone) and his legs were underneath him like that should normally be, but when i came back to my room his legs are still underneath him but are now more pushed out in front of him like hes sitting on his tail and legs are pushed passed his front legs, now he kinda bobbed his butt up and down just slightly off the ground looking out of my door, i looked like maybe using just his spine or back or maybe one of his legs bc they were both underneath him, but then he dragged himself back into his bed with his paws dragging behind him. Hes now wiggling around in the bed it looks like hes kind of rocking back and forth motion to get comfortable and laying down. So its really confusing to me because i dont know if thats improvement or just how he moved.
I took some videos showing what exactly I’m talking about as far as him bobbing his butt up and down or acting like he’s trying to stand up like using his butt/spine I think. I’m not sure about his legs because he’s lost so much muscle over the last 9 weeks of crate rest. I will also show these to his vet on the 11th during his appointment. Am I allowed to post the videos on here?
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Post by Romy & Frankie on Feb 6, 2020 14:35:03 GMT -7
It is important to know if Apollo has bladder control. If he does not than stale urine will remain in the bladder until the bladder overflows. Stale urine in the bladder can lead to urinary tract infections (UTIs) The way we know if the dog has bladder control is the sniff and pee test. But the sniff and pee test does not necessarily have to be done outdoors if the weather is bad. Have a dedicated area away from his bed, put down a pee pad that already has some urine on it. Bring him over there and see if he pees. If he does not, after a few attempts, bladder control has not yet returned and you must express him to avoid the UTIs. This is important as our IVDD dogs already have enough to deal with. Expressing is a skill and can be practiced and learned. When you try to express you will have to push hard and hold the pressure longer than you might think. Don't be afraid to do that. Many of us were scared of this in the beginning. Do it every few hours at first. Try to get a steady stream of urine. Practice and learn and help keep Apollo's bladder healthy. Have you had a chance to review the info below? www.dodgerslist.com/literature/Expressing.htm#bladderexpressSome French bull dogs wiggle their entire butts instead of a tail wag. If he does this when he gets a treat or when you come over and talk to him, that is an excellent sign of healing. Many paralyzed dogs sit with their legs out in front of them as you are describing. Some will even try to scoot around the house that way. Video's can be posted here. This is how: —First upload your video to YouTube.com —At the top of your browser when viewing your uploaded video you will see a "share" button below your video window. — Pressing it will expand to reveal the URL (it starts with <http...> ) you can paste URL into a Forum post. The underwater treadmill that Paula mentioned worked very well for my dog when he was paralyzed. I do not think he would have recovered nearly as quickly without it.
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Post by Trent & Apollo on Feb 6, 2020 15:51:40 GMT -7
Here are the videos that I took of him today to show what I was trying to explain about him moving his butt up and down or it seeming like he was attempting to stand but I’m not sure if he was using his legs to do it or just lifted his butt up. It’s still hard to tell. He has been doing this more frequently and does it mainly when I reposition his paws from being knuckled over to the correct position. I see him do it anywhere from once to maybe 10 times or more a day. I also uploaded a link showing his resting area that he’s been in for about 10 weeks all together now and me petting him and showing how he goes back to licking his back paws especially the one that he originally chewed part of off and one of his toes. It still has two red sore areas but I’ve been keeping it clean and he’s been wearing his e collar unless I’m feeding him or massaging/petting him.
[from the Youtube comment area: I was feeding him as I was recording this video.]
[from the Youtube comment area: I was feeding him as I was recording this video.]
He has lifted up more and less than that shown in the two videos. Sometimes he will kinda bounce like you can sort of see in one of the videos and sometimes he will just try to lift his butt up. I’ve seen him once lift his butt way up into the air along with his legs completely off the ground and into the air basically above his head and then quickly put them back down.
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Post by Romy & Frankie on Feb 6, 2020 16:16:18 GMT -7
In some of those videos, particularly the first one, it looks like he is trying to push up into a stand. That would bodes well for future healing.
I am not sure what you are using but if the pads where he sleeps are dog pee pads, change them for human incontinent bed pads. The reason for this is that dog pee pads have a scent which encourages urination. The pad where he is supposed to pee can remain a dog pee pad.
I think you should try bringing him out of his little area to pee on a previously used pad on a regular basis. You can support him in a standing position and see if he pees. If he cannot do that now, you must express him until bladder control returns, and he can sniff and pee.
Apollo cannot be allowed to pee where he lays because it is not really peeing, it is just the bladder overflowing and this is a health risk. Please keep trying to express him and ask any questions you have about it. Many of us have had to express our dogs. The best way is to have the vet show you how to do it. After that practice. You are doing a good job taking care of Apollo and learning to express him would continue that.
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Post by Trent & Apollo on Feb 6, 2020 16:33:08 GMT -7
Yes those are all XL puppy pads. I have one in his bed for accidents which I have seen less and less off in the last couple of weeks. He has mainly urinated and pooped on the ones that are on the ground. I still will sometimes see spots of urine on the one on his bed though, and occasionally some poop which I don’t think he had even recognized sometimes, but it’s been a while since that happened. I will start trying to express his bladder multiple times a day on a separate puppy pad and see if he will “sniff and pee” on it by himself soon also, and check if he urinates when I take him outside using his sling after this tornado weather is finished. I’ll also start changing out the pad that I have on his bed for accidents for a human pad. I knew some puppy pads were scented to help them know to go on them, but I didn’t know all of them were. I’m glad you think he’s trying to stand or sit up using his back legs in those videos. I have thought that too since he started doing it but wasn’t sure because sometimes he will just lift his butt up and feet won’t be on the ground or his feet won’t be underneath him but knuckles over. I’ll also show the vet at his appointment on the 11th and gather her input as well. Thank you for your time and information and if you or anyone else has any input or thought on the videos please feel free to share that with me.
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PaulaM
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Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
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Post by PaulaM on Feb 6, 2020 19:24:30 GMT -7
Trent, I found a very important clue you did not point out with the videos. Witih Apollo sitting on a pee pad we may have mistakenly thought the butt movement was associated with potty time. Tail, leg movements while at potty are very often reflex.
The important clue you gave in the Youtube comment area below the video was: I was feeding him as I was recording this video. I used software to put the video into slow motion and fixed the exposre to best see what was going on. Apollo is clearly pushing up with his thighs/legs in short bursts.
Next time you video you will get better results with a few minor changes: -- Place the part of Apollo's body you want us to see facing a window. The window will give a good quality of light to clearly see his legs. Video with a black dog needs to be well lit. -- Place your own body and the video camera between the window and Apollo. Make sure you are not blocking any light. Not casting a shadow on the part of Apollo's body you want us to see. -- Record zoomed out some where we can see his head to tail of what is going on -- Record zoomed in a bit to the part such has his lower half (waist down to back legs) to see again what is going on with his legs with a bit closer up view.
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Post by Trent & Apollo on Feb 8, 2020 7:19:35 GMT -7
I have calmed down a lot. I have really bad anxiety and depression and it leads to me always thinking about the worse. I do see signs of improvement. He is trying to stand up more and more when I have his feet underneath him. (Or at least lifting his butt up and down). I am still giving him light massages on his butt and down his legs and also his feet, but I try not to touch his foot much that is still healing. I have noticed his feet underneath him more by himself. He will move around or back up so that they’re underneath him. He still knuckles over a lot. I have noticed his feet twitch or his toes bend down when I’m massaging him some, but he won’t pull them back to him yet. Which is something last time I was at the vet she recommended trying. There’s rarely any pee on his pad on his bed and it’s mainly in one spot on his puppy pads infront of his bed, but he still will poop randomly it seems. I haven’t tried taking him outside yet because it has still been raining and wet and no way for me to see if he has used the bathroom and he still has two spots on his foot that he had chewed that is still red and I don’t want ANY type of infection to start from being on the grass and dirt. His harness and sling came in and they fit like a glove and I tried walking h around my room to see if he will (because he’s very stubborn) and he doesn’t mind it at all. I swore I saw his feet move once when I was doing the sling walking for a few steps, but they weren’t on the ground but lifted and near it. From him being completely immobile, to the last couple of weeks him looking like he’s trying to stand and lifting his butt up, to now the last few days of him doing it all the time. I’ve also noticed him going from laying down and then turning around to get in his bed it looks like he tries to stand up and walk but his feet knuckle over and then he just drags them into his bed and then wiggles around until he’s comfortable. I need to mention also that Apollo is 3-5 years old. I have bad memory but I will look at his birth certificate soon. He has never been fully potty trained. He has always went outside peeing and pooping, but a lot of time I would wake to find pee and sometimes poop in my room. I took him outside at least 5 times a day so I’m not sure why. I think since the last week that the bandage has been off his one foot that he has started to try to move up and down more (maybe bc it’s not a big bandage on it and he can feel that foot more). I think the light massages and the water therapy I have done twice has definitely helped. I will ask the vet about tapering his meds when I see her on the 11th and also ask about the gabapentin for the neuropathy in his legs, and slowly take the cone off more and make sure he’s not licking and chewing, but the wound is still healing. I will keep everyone informed about what the vet says about all of this and starting physical therapy. I have faith in all these signs of improvement and will work with him to the best of my abilities and budget to help him in any way I can. I have also noticed less pee when I pick him up. Maybe only a few drops if any. I have also started giving him his ▼tramadol every 12 hours again instead of 8 now that his foot is almost completely healed. He has been acting fine and still chewing with my fingers and laying on his side and back for petting. No signs of pain yet and if any arise I will go back to the 8 hours instead of 12. I will also discuss this with the vet when I see her. [Moderator's Note. Please do not edit 23 lbs prednisone as 11/30: ?mgs 2x/day for 7 days, then a 12/7 test taper to reveal any: _pain / _neuro has been on taper doses since 12/7/2019 every other day dose since 1/11/2020 methocarbamol 250mgs 2x/day tramadol 50mgs ▼2x/day Neuropathic foot surgery about Jan 9th??]
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,528
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Post by PaulaM on Feb 8, 2020 10:00:25 GMT -7
Trent, wow with a cleared mind you are able to see all the wonderful things going on with Apollo. I have no doubt with your continued devotion to his care and Apollo being on a roll with self healing nerve function you will be reporting even more healing happening. Of course, the difficult part for all of us humans is the waiting and watching part with nerve healing. This can be a slow process because this is the slowest part of the body to heal. So have patience as Apollo's body is working on bringing back more nerve function. Sling waking on a carpeted area is good. Apollo has been a couch potatoe for quite some time. You will need to gradually increase his stamina and allow the muscles to bulk up again. Here is a schedule that you can try out using the Gingerlead: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/AfterCrateRest.htm Let us know how it goes for Apollo. Appropriate physical therapy can really help maintain the muscles with lost nerve connection. Therapy keeps muscles in optimal condition while in wait to receive regenerating axon terminals. Now that Apollo can feel in his legs, he may not like you doing some of these exercises. Most dogs however do LOVE massages. So give all a try and stick with the ones he is ok with. Make PT time a pleasant experience with lots of warm praises for letting you attend to him when he is cooperative! Let us know which you find he is allowing from the video below. Post-op PT for the paralyzed IVDD dog and conservative dogs completed 8 weeks of crate rest:
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Post by Trent & Apollo on Feb 8, 2020 10:30:06 GMT -7
Thank you so much Paula. All the information and reassuring words you and everyone else have given me have really helped a great deal. I will post updates on any move improvement that i see as well as if he does potty outside once the rain is gone. Ill also post what the vet says on the 11th and how his medications change along with the start of physical therapy, hydrotherapy, accupuncture (if we do it), and laser therapy. My mom has ordered a laser that is completely pet safe to be used for him for laser therapy. She has been a nurse 20+ years along with a degree in pharmacy and she is a ND. Doctor of naturopathic medicine. My step dad is also a doctor. He has been a general doctor for over 30 years so i have faith in their help with apollo and his therapies along with the vet. I will post updates periodically and hopefully he will regain use of his back legs even if not at 100 percent. Again, thank you all.
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Post by Trent & Apollo on Feb 9, 2020 16:36:52 GMT -7
Just wanted to report that i have sling walked apollo twice now. He really enjoyed it and wanted to go ALL over the back yard, and he did sniff and i lowered him down but i didnt see any pee come out but he couldve peed many times while i was walking him and he did sniff a lot and act like he wanted to pee (kinda trying to lower himself). Also just 30 minutes ago when my grandmother was leaving out of my room, Apollo stood up for a few seconds by himself. Not all the way up though. His legs were underneath him (not perfectly) and he lifted his butt up about 5 inches off the ground for and held it up with his feet underneath him for about 3-5 seconds before sitting it back down! Hes gone from slightly moving his butt up and down about 2 weeks ago, like in the videos above, to doing that all the time in the last few days, and his feet are underneath him more and more now especially if i say "lets fix those feet apollo" he will back up or kinda twist himself around so theyre underneath him. I also swear in the last maybe 2 days i have seen his legs (ankles specifically) kinda pop from being knuckled over to being underneath him when telling him to fix them. I am extremely happy that i saw him somewhat stand by himself for a few seconds and thought i should share.
I also wanted to say that apollo has had no messes other than some poop in his rest area today. As far as peeing goes he didnt pee on me any the 2 times that i picked him up to take him outside. My step dad just sprayed our back yard with weed killer and it has to absorb for a few hours before its safe for dogs to go out there especially apollo with the two sores still open on his one foot, and hes drunk so much water today about 4-5 bottles (he usually drinks 2-3) and his stomach is full. He peed a few "squirts" when i picked him up. I tried to express him and he WOULD NOT let me do it at all. He tried his hardest to pull away from me and get into his bed where he knows ill leave him alone and rest. He wasnt acting like he was in pain though. Just super annoyed by me trying to express his bladder, which has happened before when i tried but not like this. He would kinda squirm for a second and then be fine and id relieve it for him, but this time he kept squirming and trying to get in his bed and not let me express him. I was only able to get one little line of pee out even though his stomach is so full. Is this normal?
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,528
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Post by PaulaM on Feb 10, 2020 12:51:41 GMT -7
Trent, you ARE seeing many signs that nerve function is coming back for the hind limbs/paws. And I'm gonna take a guess that bladder control is or has come back as well when you can do the sniff and pee test after the spraying has dried.. When a dog can begin to control their bladder they very often do not like anyone pressing on their bladder to express— cause they can feel your pressure and that intention to override their self control. Normally dogs do not like releasing urine when not in an appropriate place (usually that would be outside or if pee pad trained to be an approprate place)
Let us know about what you see with the sniff and pee test.
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Post by Trent & Apollo on Feb 11, 2020 15:41:38 GMT -7
I have returned from the vet. I told her everything that I’ve been doing as far as water therapy, range of motion, and massaging. She thinks it’s completely fine and said I can continue doing it. Her doesn’t like people he doesn’t know so he barked and growled a lot the whole time there, but she was able to see him attempt to stand which he did multiple times while she was in there. She checked his feet I guess for pull back, she stood him up and held him and pinched I think one of his toes and he actually pulled it back away from her some. He also will move his feet or curl his toes inward now if you tickled them. She said there was definitely signs of improvement. I also showed her the videos that I posted here. She said he should focus on letting the nerves heal and keep doing what we’re doing. She said it’s okay if he’s aloud out of his rest area to move around and to just check and watch for any soreness. She now has him taking only a half of prednisone every two days to taper him off of it. Also methocarbomal is just 12 hours until he runes out I guess and see if he needs it again. Tramadol is every 12 hours if needed for discomfort. She also prescribed him gabapentin 100 mg every 12 hours (less if needed only half) to see if that helps with him licking and chewing on his feet. She said the therapies I was doing were good and he needs to build up the muscle mass that he has lost. She scheduled an appointment for two weeks from now to check on everything and see how he’s doing.
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Post by Romy & Frankie on Feb 11, 2020 16:03:18 GMT -7
Good news that the vet is verifying that Apollo is improving. Standing takes muscle strength and balance. You are helping to build that up with the sling walking on a carpeted area. Slow and steady is the way to help him build up his strength.
The vet is continuing to taper Apollo of the pred. For how long will he be taking a half a tablet every other day? He should be ready to be completely off the pred very soon. By cutting back on the pain meds, it will start to become clear if Apollo will need any meds going forward.
How is he doing with the licking and biting of his feet?
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Post by Trent & Apollo on Feb 11, 2020 18:21:56 GMT -7
He doesn’t start the gabapentin until tomorrow when we can fill the prescription, but I’m hoping it helps with the licking and biting. He wears a cone so he’s not able to but when I take it off he does lick it some and considering one foot is still healing (Two little open red spots) from the surgery he had it’s normal. He’s not currently obsessively licking when I take his cone off so that’s good. I’m hoping the gabapentin will help with him with that while his nerves heal.
He has I think 5 prednisone left but now she only wants him to take a half one every other day instead of a full one. So it would be 10 days, but now it will be 20 [days] I think until it’s all gone.
His tramadol is just every 12 hours as needed for discomfort [from paw surgery] so we’re just going to slowly taper him off of it, couple days of every 12 hours (look for signs of pain), then once a day see how he does, and then none and see.
His methocarbomal is still every 12 hours as needed so we will probably do the same thing with it and keep on eye for any signs as well. Other than that he will soon be off all of those meds and only on the gabapentin until we see that he is no longer obsessively licking and biting his feet and he isn’t showing signs of nerve pain.
Still going to do the hydrotherapy, massaging, and rom at home. The laser also came in and my mom is going to start that soon. Hopefully his nerves will heal in the next few months and he will be able to stand for more than a few seconds and hopefully walk again!
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Post by Julie & Perry on Feb 11, 2020 21:10:04 GMT -7
Trent, I found laser therapy very helpful in jump starting my dogs recovery.
Hopefully it will have good results for Apollo too!
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Post by Trent & Apollo on Feb 11, 2020 21:35:18 GMT -7
Thank you, Julie. I hope so as well.
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