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Post by Susan & Demo on Oct 24, 2019 16:51:19 GMT -7
Susan's Demo 10/24 conservative NECK
His back was hurting him quite a bit this morning and he was holding up his front right paw. I put him in his crate and went to work. When I got back he did not want to come out of his crate but finally did and walked carefully.
I am taking matters into my own hands at this point. THE ONE neurologist who did his surgery is out until Nov.4th and the office said they could not refill any of his medications or write new scripts. They suggested their ER but there would be no neuro there (and I spent $800 there the last visit).
Demo's lifelong vet is far from us and in Dallas, following the tornado damage across town, there is so much traffic, it would take over an hour each way AND Demo thrashes around in his car crate.
I left a message for him, Dr. B, describing all of his symptoms and asked if we could do a week of prednisone, Pepcid, gabapentin, Robaxin and trazedone. His office called me and said yes to all
[Moderator's Note. Please do not edit
16.8 lbs
prednisone as of 10/24: ? mgs 2x/day for 7 days then 10/31 test taper
gabapentin 100mgs 2x/day
Roboxin 125mgs 2x/day
Pepcid AC 2.5mgs 2x/day ]
but that Demo did not need the trazedone. I think he does. I am going to start the med regimen tonight and tomorrow try to find a closer vet that has experience with Dachshund backs. If he is hurting in the morning, I will get him some trazedone or tramadol one way or the other. Are either of those also human drugs? He is going to stay crated until I can get him to a doc with some back experience.
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PaulaM
Moderator. 
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,528
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Post by PaulaM on Oct 24, 2019 17:36:28 GMT -7
Susan, good job in following your instinct. With your mention of holding up right front paw, that is one of the signs the problematic disc is in the neck. Good thing to ensure the disc does not worsen with very STRICT rest of limited movement of the neck/back.
When you get a chance do let us know the detail of the med list. IF a range for any med was given that is great. Additionally include which you actually are giving.
prednisone as of 10/24: ? mgs ?x/day for 7 days then 10/31 test taper
gabapentin ? mgs ?x/day
Roboxin ? mgs ?x/day
Pepcid AC ? mgs ?x/day
With meds now on board, let us know what you observe if the painful not wanting to bear weight on a limb is gone, walking gingerly, reluctant to move gone also.
Tramadol and trazadone are Rx items whether used by a person or a canine.
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Post by Susan & Demo on Oct 24, 2019 18:28:49 GMT -7
NECK??? Nooooo. I just let him have one of his toys the other day and he was shaking it. Any other thing ican check or watch for? He did not hold his paw up this evening.
He is reacting to touch to site of herniated disc.
I cant just keep having surgeries or make him live in a crate. When he feels good, he wants to run and jump on pillows i had on floor for him and he wants his toys back.
And i cannot pick him up at all. Injured my back picking him up for 2-3 months. He will have to walk 10 ft to potty.
Med schedule. I am just putting him back on post surgery amts:
Pred: 1 tab every 12 hrs for 7 days then taper. 5 or .5 ?
Robaxin 125 mg every 12 hours
Pepcid ac 2.5 mg every 12 hrs
Gabapentin 100 mg every 12 hrs
Im really worried now.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,528
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Post by PaulaM on Oct 25, 2019 7:40:03 GMT -7
Susan, no longer lifting paw, sounds like the pain meds are doing the job of masking pain. Do know if you were to be seeing any hint of pain re-surfacing, then CALL the vet and advocate to move the two pain meds (Robaxin and gabapentin) to an every 8 hrs schedule. A med chart is handy in seeing relationships and being able to provide the details vets need: D/l and print from here and make one for Demo's meds: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/crateRRP/medchart.pdf POTTY TIMES Walking just can't be allowed if there is intention to allow the disc to heal. Put a pee pad just outside the recovery suite. Demo can then take a only few footsteps to the pad for potty time. Keep a piece of used pee pad or urine stained paper towel in a zip lock bag. Put the piece down on the pee pad so Demo can sniff and know it is OK to pee in the house on the pee pad. ONCE OFF CRATE REST You may like to tape to the fridge the activities to avoid so as not to aggravate a neck or even a back disc: No more stairs or steps. Use ramps indoors with furniture and on outdoor steps to help decrease impact on the spine. How to build your own ramps No more jumping up or down, those activities increase impact on the spine. Teach your dog to use a ramp: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/ramptrain.htm No tug-o-war, pulling games. No killing the prey, via shaking toys. No zig zag running. No rambunctious playing with other dogs. Teach your dog to not pull on the leash No sitting up or standing on back legs. Teach your dog to sit down rather than jump AND keep all four feet on the ground Back/Neck Friendly activities to Redirect Your Dog to Build up to daily 30 minute walks, good exercise to strengthen core and back muscles Hide and seek games involving nose work are good and can be played inside or outdoors (hide yourself behind a door, hide kibble pieces on a bottom shelf, under edge of rug, sink treats in a saucer of water, or a muffin tin) Swimming, water therapy is good exercise. Fetching a gently rolled tennis ball along the ground is good exercise. Avoid dog pouncing or stopping suddenly. Obedience training for mind stimulation, teach a new word or command. CLARIFICATIONs -- Prednisone. How many mgs are in one whole tab?-- Pepcid AC. For a 16.8 lb dog, the dose would be 5mgs every 12 hrs for optimal suppression of stomach acids while on pred. Your quick action of getting in contact with a vet willing to help, has made the difference for Demo. Kudos to you. Keep up the good work, it will pay off! |
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Post by Susan & Demo on Oct 25, 2019 12:25:34 GMT -7
Demo wants to run and jump onto his beds on the floor and he hops into the crate.He has lost sleeping with someone and sitting on couch.He was in crate for 3 months this year and 5 months 2 years ago. He pulls on the leash or stops and will not move.
If I do not put him in strict crate for 8 weeks, what will i have in front of me? What meds can keep him comfortable and living out of the crate?
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Post by Romy & Frankie on Oct 25, 2019 13:37:42 GMT -7
I am sorry that Demo is having another episode. It must be very frustrating. Some dogs do have multiple episodes. Things like sitting on the couch or sleeping with you are too risky for Demo during the crate rest period. They are not forbidden forever. Many of our members use ramps so the dog can get up and down from the couch. Check out the web page and video that Paula recommended when you have a chance.
A dog can sleep on the bed after the crate rest period as long as there is no chance he can jump down. Some members have used small soft sided crates for this. That is a very safe method. Others have put the dog between themselves and the wall. Any method that ensures there is no danger of Demo jumping off. This may sound harsh. I don't mean to be. We at Dodgerslist want the best for Demo and you. If you don't put him in the crate for 8 weeks during a disk episode you risk paralysis. The crate rest period is 8 weeks. This is how long it will take the disk to heal. After that, Demo can go back to many of his usual activities. The pee pad outside the crate is what I used with my dog Frankie. He was too heavy for me to lift. You could give it a try. As to his pulling on the leash, have you considered a professional trainer? I used one with one of my dogs to train her not to charge the front door. When I was choosing a trainer I looked for one that was certified by the Certification Council of Professional Dog Trainers (CCPDT). She came to my house twice. Not so much to train the dog as to train me to train the dog. This worked quite well but it took some time, maybe a month of me training every day. At the end I had a dog that would not run to the door. The CCPDT web site has a "Find A Trainer" area which shows trainers near you. There are a small number of dogs who stay on a small dose of anti-inflammatory long term. It may turn out that that Demo is one of them. You can speak to your vet about that after the crate rest period. |
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Post by Susan & Demo on Oct 25, 2019 19:12:00 GMT -7
I have made an appointment with a vet just 5 mins from my house for Monday who sees a lot of dachshund. Have friends coming in tomorrow for a week.
I am very frustrated that the surgery was not completely successful. As soon as he went off post surgery meds at 4 weeks, he had pain again at the exact same spot. I wanted perfection for $8K and i want him with me for many more years - but not living in a crate. If there is still material hitting a nerve, wont it always be there?
He held that one front paw up going out 1 morning and never again so praying new dr doesn't find neck issue.
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Marjorie
Moderator~ 
Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,724 
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Post by Marjorie on Oct 26, 2019 5:50:31 GMT -7
I went back and read through the your posts since Demo's surgery, Susan. It looks like Demo was off meds on 9/20 and he began showing pain on 9/26. He spent a couple of days in the hospital and the neuro said this may be his new normal. She put him on a month's worth of Gabapentin. Was he still on the Gabapentin at the time this worsening of condition happened?You'll need to stop the pain meds 8 hours before the exam on Monday so the vet can make a good diagnosis. Otherwise, the pain meds will just mask any pain that the vet needs to see to make a good diagnosis. I would have the hospital and his regular vet fax Demo's records over to the new vet so he has that information to refer to. What is the dosage of the Prednisone?Just in case this is a neck problem, you should be doing a few other things to help the neck heal, such as softening hard kibble, raising food/water dishes so Demo does not have to bend his neck. More info here: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/cervical.htmPlease try to stay positive. I know this is difficult with Demo having a problem so soon after surgery. Sometimes it does happen that a bit of disc material is left during a surgery and another surgery is done to remove that. If that has happened, conservative treatment is an option. It is the hope with conservative care that the body will absorb the disc material, but the limitation of movement of the spine must be kept very strict for a full 8 weeks. Or a dog will have another disc problem shortly following a surgery on another disc. Or it could be something else. Just take it one step at a time. Stay strong, stay positive and never give up hope! Blessings to you and Demo. |
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Post by Susan & Demo on Oct 26, 2019 10:36:27 GMT -7
We didn't sleep last night. He just made kind of crying/sighing low noise and did not sleep.
We're at a vet close to my house and he was a mess in the crate to get here and really scared here. Neck and neuro exam is fine. Pain in exact same [?] spot. I think the trazodone masked the pain? He was asleep in his crate for 4 weeks after surgery. Im very scared and discouraged.
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Post by Susan & Demo on Oct 26, 2019 12:48:37 GMT -7
I just realized that Demo probably did 8 weeks strict crate rest. 5-6 weeks before surgery and 5 weeks after.
The vet was helpful. She said he needed to go back to the surgeon. Can't do that til after nov 4.
They have a dr that does acupunture and laser therapy that will come to my house to see if we can manage his pain and still let him be a dog. Dr thought if this is some missed material than it probably would not be absorbed with another 8 weeks in crate. For now - adding trazedone and going on diet
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Post by Romy & Frankie on Oct 26, 2019 13:30:53 GMT -7
Please do not be discouraged. You will be seeing your surgeon soon and that will help you get a better idea of Demo's situation and treatment.
Any missed disc material may or may not be absorbed with 8 weeks of crate rest. Your surgeon will give you his opinion on this. With conservative treatment, the hope is that over time disc material pressing on the nerves of the spine will shrink back enough so that pain resolves and nerves can start to self repair. While the disc is healing, too much movement and the damaged disc can tear more, even rupture, causing more pain and possibly more nerve damage.
Trazadone is not a pain reliever, so I don't think it could mask pain. It could make Demo sleepy though.
Laser therapy and acupuncture have been successfully used by a number of our members. Great that the vet will come to the house to avoid a potentially dangerous transport.
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Post by Susan & Demo on Oct 26, 2019 14:34:15 GMT -7
Coming to the house will be great. For many years The only time he has been in a car is to go to the vet where sometimes he is left for a while. Hates going in the car.
If on gabapentin, robaxin, prednisone and trazedone __ what is the pain control?
Vet was quick to say they did not use tramadol because it doesn't work.?
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Post by Romy & Frankie on Oct 26, 2019 14:52:16 GMT -7
In that mix, Gabapentin and Roboxin are pain relievers. Gabapentin works on nerve pain and Roboxin works to relieve painful muscle spasms. Prednisone is an anti-inflammatory and works on swelling in the spinal cord which causes pain. When the swelling is gone the pain should be gone also. But prednisone, like any anti-inflammatory, does not work right away. That is why other pain relievers are prescribed.
There has been some discussion in the veterinary world about the effectiveness of tramadol. Here at Dodgerslist we have heard of many dogs getting pain relief from tramadol when it is prescribed at the right dosage based on the dog's weight. This is only anecdotal evidence but tramadol is still commonly used for IVDD dogs.
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Post by Susan & Demo on Nov 13, 2019 16:19:07 GMT -7
We should be moved from NECK as he has no neck issues.
Demo has seen a new vet, an acupuncturist twice. She said to do 3 times to judge if it helps. I think he has been more sore the day after both times. New vet and acupuncturist pin pointed his pain where he had surgery.
Surgeon said he has sore spots several different places and we could do an MRI ($4000). I declined MRI before his surgery and chose catscan since his pain was so specific. And i declined again saying i would not pt him through another surgery this year and want to try and manage by medication.
So he is coming off ▼pred i had pt him back on, leaving all else in place and then we are going to start grabipant 10mg every 12 hours. Considering canceling accupuncture?
Tomorrow we start 3 days of 2.5 prednisone, then 3 days of every other day, wait 3 days and start new [NSAID: Galliprant?].
Other:
▲Methocarbanal 125 mg every 8 hours
▲Gabapenten 100 mg every 8 hours
Pepcid w prednisone
Trazadone 50 mg every 8 hours.
I have added pumpkin and frozen veggies trying to get him back to 15 lbs.
[Moderator's Note. Please do not edit
16.8 lbs
prednisone as of 10/24: ? mgs 2x/day for 7 days then 10/31 test taper
owner Rx'd course as of date?: ?mgs ?x/day, date of taper?
Galliprant start date?
gabapentin 100mgs ▲3x/day
Roboxin 125mgs ▲3x/day
Trazadone 50mg as needed
Pepcid AC 2.5mgs 2x/day ]
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Marjorie
Moderator~
Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,724
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Post by Marjorie on Nov 14, 2019 6:13:06 GMT -7
Susan, on what date did you see the surgeon and he found several sore spots? If it was recently determined that Demo still has pain, then it's not time to taper off of the Prednisone. Pain means there's still swelling pressing on the nerves of the spine and still a need for the original doses of all meds for a bit longer. It can take 7-30 days for the swelling to resolve.
If that exam was not done recently and a taper of the Prednisone is going forward, then the pain meds (Gabapentin and Methocarbamol) should also be tapered or stopped so a true test for pain can be made. Having pain meds on board during a taper of the Prednisone will make it difficult for you to determine if there is still pain/swelling. Please speak to the vet about also stopping or at least tapering off of the Gabapentin and Methocarbamol.
Demo was originally scheduled to start tapering off of the Prednisone on 10/31. Was that extended due to pain still being present at that time?
You mentioned that once Demo is off of Prednisone, they would be starting him on Grabipant. Did you mean Galliprant? Galliprant is a NSAID and there needs to be at least a 4-7 day washout period between starting that and stopping the Prednisone, not 3 days. What is the vet's reason to switch to Galliprant, a NSAID? Galliprant is mostly used in cases of arthritis. If Demo still needs an anti-inflammatory, why can't he stay on Prednisone?
Please continue to give Demo Pepcid AC twice a day (30 mins. before the anti-inflammatory and then every 12 hours thereafter) for as long as Demo is on any type or dosage of anti-inflammatory.
You mentioned that you want to treat Demo with medication rather than surgery. You do still have him on strict crate rest, correct?
Sometimes acupuncture can cause some pain at the needle points. Acupuncture can be a great way to jump start nerve healing but Demo has no signs of loss of neuro function at this time, only pain. Acupuncture is not a good way to control pain as its benefit is not always consistent. Pain meds are needed to control pain.
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